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[O-N-E]

if god is omniscient, you don't have free will, because he already know what will happen. If he is omnipotent and can affect what happens to you to give you guidance, then you are just a slave following loose orders and lack free will.

Ok, I'll try to give this to you crumb by crumb.

• Something that is rational will follow the natural order of the world
• The main rule is cause and effect
• Cause and effect is ultimately predictable.
• You were born with certain attributes and those attributes predict your effect on the world, your trajectory, your ultimate destination. Destiny. Whatever "good" or "bad" "decisions" you make.
• Therefore, free will is naturally impossible. It is paradoxical. Only possible in an irrational world, above the natural world. Supernatural.
• God is the creator of the natural world, above it. The creator of all. He can cause the supernatural.
• Therefore, only God can give you the supernatural gift of free will

Done

and Begone.

 

[GobbledeeGoo]

Ok, I'll try to give this to you crumb by crumb.

• Something that is rational will follow the natural order of the world
• The main rule is cause and effect
• Cause and effect is ultimately predictable.
• You were born with certain attributes and those attributes predict your effect on the world, your trajectory, your ultimate destination. Destiny. Whatever "good" or "bad" "decisions" you make.
• Therefore, free will is naturally impossible. It is paradoxical. Only possible in an irrational world, above the natural world. Supernatural.
• God is the creator of the natural world, above it. The creator of all. He can cause the supernatural.
• Therefore, only God can give you the supernatural gift of free will

Done

and Begone.

Everything was right up until the last part.

 

[Ornlu]

Cybrwzrd

Arguing over God being omniscient or omnipotent is pretty silly. Even just a person casually reading the Bible can see clearly that is not presented as the case. "God is greater than we can imagine, and created all things" is not the same as the atheistic strawman ala "But can he create a stone that even he cannot lift?!?" that gets trotted out in these kinds of arguments.

No, God is not omniscient or omnipotent as laid out in atheistic arguments. He is clearly depicted as extremely powerful, and is clearly depicted to be capable of error. There are plenty of examples. Even in the creation story. Why would he take time to create everything, instead of just willing creation into being instantly? Why would he need rest afterward? Etc. etc. etc.

You don't even have to believe in God to come to that conclusion, reading the Bible. So why present such a flawed argument? Is it just to troll people who believe in something you don't?

 

[Cybrwzrd]

Ok, I'll try to give this to you crumb by crumb.

• Something that is rational will follow the natural order of the world
• The main rule is cause and effect
• Cause and effect is ultimately predictable.
• You were born with certain attributes and those attributes predict your effect on the world, your trajectory, your ultimate destination. Destiny. Whatever "good" or "bad" "decisions" you make.
• Therefore, free will is naturally impossible. It is paradoxical. Only possible in an irrational world, above the natural world. Supernatural.
• God is the creator of the natural world, above it. The creator of all. He can cause the supernatural.
• Therefore, only God can give you the supernatural gift of free will

Done

and Begone.

Are you making a claim that free will is irrationality?

Cybrwzrd

Arguing over God being omniscient or omnipotent is pretty silly. Even just a person casually reading the Bible can see clearly that is not presented as the case. "God is greater than we can imagine, and created all things" is not the same as the atheistic strawman ala "But can he create a stone that even he cannot lift?!?" that gets trotted out in these kinds of arguments.

No, God is not omniscient or omnipotent as laid out in atheistic arguments. He is clearly depicted as extremely powerful, and is clearly depicted to be capable of error. There are plenty of examples. Even in the creation story. Why would he take time to create everything, instead of just willing creation into being instantly? Why would he need rest afterward? Etc. etc. etc.

You don't even have to believe in God to come to that conclusion, reading the Bible. So why present such a flawed argument? Is it just to troll people who believe in something you don't?

Is god perfect? Serious question. If god is perfect, then he has to be all powerful and all knowing and all good. If he is not perfect, then what is he being compared to that is perfect?

 

[O-N-E]

Are you making a claim that free will is irrationality?

 

[Airola]

God: "Don't eat this or you will die."
Man: "Ok."
Snake: "Nah, you don't die."
Man: "Ok."
Snake: "In fact you will be like God if you eat."
Man: "Oh, ok, sounds great."
Man eats what was forbidden to eat.
God: "Ok, it's death to you. All kinds of suffering will now happen to the whole chain of you."
Man: "But the woman made me eat it."
Woman: "But the snake made me eat it."
God: "Nah, it's death now to you, you and you, to the whole chain. Don't try to lift blame to others for the actions you did. You were warned but you listened to a lie instead."

Years go by, decades go by, centuries go by, a whole lot of time and history goes by. God over and over again tells what man should not do. Man does it nevertheless. God promises both peace and pain. Never hides the fact that horrible things will happen. Man ignores all and continues to do a lot of bad and forbidden things.

Years go by, decades go by, centuries go by, a whole lot of time and history goes by.

Man: "Why is there so much suffering? I don't know! Oh, I know, it's all God's fault!"

Man - shifting blame since the beginning of humanity.

If you want to become like God by eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, don't come crying when you suddenly truly know both good and evil. You will know what it is to be both good and evil and you will know what it feels like to be struck by evil and what it feels when you do evil and receive the punishment that goodness requires.

 

[Airola]

You can't have free will if god is those three things. But we do have free will, therefore god does not exist.

I raise the stakes:
If there is no God, we can't have free will.
If we are purely formed through completely fully natural chemical reactions, then every single smallest little thing we do can be traced back to the beginning of the universe, and from that initial state of existence of the universe it could be calculated what will happen and there is nothing that can change any of that in any way.

 

[Airola]

1. If an omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient god exists, then evil does not.

What is the logic to come to that conclusion?

And the modern version of it

1. God exists.
2. God is omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient.
3. An omnipotent being has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
4. An omnibenevolent being would want to prevent all evils.
5. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence, and knows every way in which those evils could be prevented.
6. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
7. If there exists an omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient God, then no evil exists.
8. Evil exists (logical contradiction).

Ok, so this is why you think the premise number 1 in the other argument is true.

Well this modern version goes wrong at least in argument 4.
The whole argument doesn't take into account what free will and love mean. If we are supposed to have free will and if we are supposed to love God and each other freely without forcing us to do so, then we have to be allowed to choose the bad thing over good and to not love instead of loving. So that's one reason evil can be allowed by an omnibenevolent being.
Then there is this question: Is it necessary for an omnibenevolent being who wants to prevent all evil to have to prevent all evil? Wouldn't the story of Jesus be a clear example of letting something happen that isn't really wanted to happen?

If I had a son, I wouldn't WANT my son to have hurtful physical or emotional experiences, but I wouldn't necessarily prevent all of them from happening.

The premise number 5 also doesn't take into account what knowing all would really mean. I you want to accept that God would know all scenarios that lead into evil things, then he would surely also know what possible good things would result from those evil things. Are you absolutely certain that in a world with free will, this wouldn't be the best possible world of what there can be with our free will? That way way way way ahead in the future, whatever evil we have done have ended in the best possible resolution, and that every possibility of evil that would've made that resolution worse in any way were prevented by God?
I mean, that's not really what I believe, but that surely is one way that dismantles both of those arguments playing with the rules the arguments have given.

I couldn't have caused it, since I am not omnipotent or omniscient. Were I, I could have stopped it. Therefore, I am not God.

But would you have stopped it if you knew that this evil act would cause trouble for the next 500 years but its ripple effects would cause the world be in far better state in 10,000 years from now than what it would be if that act of evil wasn't allowed? Would you be more compassionate for the people living in next 500 years than for the people living in 10,000 years from now?

I mean, those atheist arguments about evil really overlook a lot of what omniscience and things like that really mean. They set certain characteristics to God but only look at them from the angles that seemingly make God look bad and don't even care to think it any further than that.

 

[Karma Jawa]

Yes.

If god is omnibenevolent, he is all good and incapable of evil. If he is omniscient, he knows all, therefore he can't make mistakes and all his actions must be for good. If god is omnipotent he is capable of doing anything, and anything he does must be for good. If god is omnipresent he exists everywhere at once, therefore he must stop evil from occurring. If he is all powerful, exists everywhere at one time, all knowing, and all good, evil should never happen. But, evil exists. Therefore god must not be omnibenevolent. Which makes him capable of evil. Which calls into question his omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence.

Why worship a god that lies about being good?

At the very least, the old gods are honest.

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

It’s highly debatable that evil exists. Just extreme forms of ‘bad’ based on personal perspective.

Not that an intelligent God could exist. Thoughts and opinions are a response to external events. If God is omnipotent they can’t be influenced by anything outside of themselves, so therefore can’t have thoughts or reactionary emotions. If they did they’d be imperfect, and therefore not God.

 

[Karma Jawa]

I raise the stakes:
If there is no God, we can't have free will.
If we are purely formed through completely fully natural chemical reactions, then every single smallest little thing we do can be traced back to the beginning of the universe, and from that initial state of existence of the universe it could be calculated what will happen and there is nothing that can change any of that in any way.

Determinism.

 

[Airola]

Is god perfect? Serious question. If god is perfect, then he has to be all powerful and all knowing and all good. If he is not perfect, then what is he being compared to that is perfect?

We could see it like this:
God is as perfect as we can logically imagine him to be.
If some of his characteristics are logically impossible, then the depiction of perfection doesn't include those characteristics either.

Now if we remove those logically impossible things from the idea of perfection, the thing that is left is still amazingly beyond our capabilities. It is still the being that caused the universe to exist. That alone, even without any omniscience is something that could be seen as perfect especially if we compare it to our capability of creation. We only can create things from materials that already exist and even with that we can't create a universe, let alone a universe with people who create things. So what comes to the power to create, that would be perfection.

God indeed is as perfect as it is locigally possible to be. To call a being with that kind of perfection as something not worth calling God is just stupid and arrogant.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

There can't be free will with the existence of an omnibenevolent, omnipotent, omniscient god. Its the whole can god create a stone it cannot lift paradox.

the problem is you being unable to accept the paradox. God by definition can do it. we accept paradoxes in quantum physics, particles that have half and negative spin. why can't you accept paradox with the creator of EVERYTHING? he can do things that humans cannot comprehend. that is part of what makes him God. he exists on another dimension from us. it not making sense to us on this plane of existence actually makes complete sense.

we can grant free will and take it away, can we not? we keep pets. we experiment on animals. there is human slavery. how, then, can God, which created us, not do a thing that we can do?

you seem to have an impaired idea of what God is, a God which does not have even the agency of a human being. free will is not impossible with an all powerful God. an all powerful God must be able to bestow free will. if you do not allow him that, then he is not all powerful, and at that point your definition of God is incoherent.

 

[Cutty Flam]

 

[GobbledeeGoo]

How can anyone actually claim free will exists when we are born into a human body that has been impacted by the decisions of its Mother while being carried and the people in direct contact with her and indirect contact. (Stress from outside forces, how her sleep is during those 9 months, her diet, her habits). Then we are born and decisions about how we develop are decided by other people until we respond to them and they respond to that and then we respond to them. We're nothing more than a product of that for the rest of our life. There is no free will.

 

[MetalAlien]

You can do just as many horrors in the name of love as you can in the name of hate. "It's for your own good!"

 

[Ornlu]

Is god perfect? Serious question. If god is perfect, then he has to be all powerful and all knowing and all good. If he is not perfect, then what is he being compared to that is perfect?

I already answered that in the post you quoted. God is not depicted as perfect. God is shown to change his mind when his own creations argue with him and convince him that he is wrong. He spares the Israelites after Moses pleads with him. Abraham bargains with God, to spare Lot during the destruction of Sodom.

David is proclaimed by God to be "A man after my own heart", even with all of David's failings. God is not depicted as being perfect in the Bible.

 

[Halo is Back]

Finally saw the video. Yep, God is pretty fucked up, just a narcissistic child. I still laugh when people tell me Jesus "sacrificed" himself to save us. Lmao he came back to life and God planed it all along. You got duped.

 

[Halo is Back]

No.

If it wasn't for the necessary existence that is GOD, then we wouldn't have existed and experienced this life in the first place, for better or worse.

Also, how can God be a villain when he created Hideo Kojima and Sony Interactive Entertainment?

If life is so precious then what is the point of getting into heaven?

 

[Tesseract]

i don't think the simulation is evil

 

[GreyHorace]

I think Geralt of Rivia summed up what I think of this whole thing:

 

[Urprobablyright]

Just in general i find superstition unhelpful. God and his ilk all make a virtue out of ignoring reality, and i think we can see that in many areas of life that this is a damaging precedent.

Like, "we see what this causes, we see the consequences, we see the rational course of action.. now it's time to consider how i feel, with a whole bunch of apologist dogma behind me, about hard work and change. Hmm I'd rather keep subjugating women and sitting on my cozy couch all evening."

It's like, "you saw it, i saw it, but what did the figure in my imagination who can be made to confirm all my half assed ideas think?"

I have, for well over a decade now, clearly seen religion as an early form of science. They used what evidence they had, what experience they could, to explain phenomena they couldn't grasp. Scientists do the same now, the only difference is the application of things like logic and observation, empiricism, etc. The tools are different but the need for certainty is consistent.

There simply is no disembodied spirit adjudicating on what you do. There are plenty of mental consequences - guilt, apprehension, self sabotage, whathaveyou - on an individual and societal level, which you should be aware of and sensitive to.

I am not anti religion. I've really no opinion. I was a Catholic more or less until i was about 16, then i moved to Beijing for 5 years and basically forgot about it all. Didn't hate it, didn't reject it, just ceased to think about it. I'm the same to this day. Religion is just science, with less accurate tools. People can abuse it because it doesn't require prrofs.

So in that case, God is as much a villain as any other religious figure. In the sense that they make a virtue out of ignorance, stagnation and cautious negativity.

 

[Tesseract]

don't see how you make light bad without breaking every rule

 

[Kenpachii]

Watched it half way, but this guy seems to be kinda stuck in repeating his same point over and over again which just gets annoying after a while.

He thinks god is evil because he kills people or punishes people because only supervillains would do that which is simple factually incorrect.

What is god?

God is a tool to guide you through the world to give you meaning and give you rewards. Its a father figure with a set structure of morals. Lots of people don't have anybody that looks after themselves so they can replace that feeling with a god figure and feel like they matter and somebody looks after them. This is why wealthy nations start to lose more into the god believe system and poor nations more.

But why is god not evil because killing people?

Killing people don't make you evil, that never was the case. A military person that drops a bomb on a bunch of people in syria is stated as war hero in america while he's the ultimate evil in syria. Locking a person in a cage for the rest of there life like a animal or killing him with death panaloty because he had a different set of moral structures is also acceptable and isn't seen as evil by entire society's. Killing people off that are sick by doctors is seen in some country's as a evil doctor in other country's as perfectly normal.

Rules are made by conquerors or rulers. If thanatos would wipe out the entire universe of people besides 2 kids he leaves alive and give them a book on how to live there life, then thanatos would be seen as a good guy and could even be a god figure indeed like thanatos.

The thing what made thanatos evil is because he had no lasting projection of power or was capable to push his moral set os structure over a longer time of period over that universe because that wasn't his goal.

There are countless of examples of this.

It just feels like this guy tries to make sense out of something he doesn't understand because he doesn't see the basic picture of how society's work or humans behave in general or how cultures and moral set structures are formed.

 

[Singular7]

Yes.

If god is omnibenevolent, he is all good and incapable of evil. If he is omniscient, he knows all, therefore he can't make mistakes and all his actions must be for good. If god is omnipotent he is capable of doing anything, and anything he does must be for good. If god is omnipresent he exists everywhere at once, therefore he must stop evil from occurring. If he is all powerful, exists everywhere at one time, all knowing, and all good, evil should never happen. But, evil exists. Therefore god must not be omnibenevolent. Which makes him capable of evil. Which calls into question his omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence.

Why worship a god that lies about being good?

At the very least, the old gods are honest.

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

Can God create a square circle?

Answer this and you'll debunk your chain of questions.

God is not possible of doing the logically impossible (forcing free will agents to be good).

God is not responsible for creating free will agents that do bad, nor is he bad for allowing a system to test the limits of free will agents moral responsibilities towards each other.

Why?

Because God is good, and he doesn't want slave-robots that only do what he tells them to.

Therefore, he is in the position of a parent to billions of minds, and wants to help us become loving and responsible adults.

You're imposing things on God he isn't imposing on you.

Earth is amazing. The universe is amazing. When we corrupt the obvious laws of nature, and the laws of the creator as revealed to man (do not steal, do not be jealous, do not kill, etc) we ruin the creation.

(sorry, don't mean to keep replying to your posts, but you make substantive points which are worth responding to lol)

 

[Halo is Back]

Watched it half way, but this guy seems to be kinda stuck in repeating his same point over and over again which just gets annoying after a while.

He thinks god is evil because he kills people or punishes people because only supervillains would do that which is simple factually incorrect.

What is god?

God is a tool to guide you through the world to give you meaning and give you rewards. Its a father figure with a set structure of morals. Lots of people don't have anybody that looks after themselves so they can replace that feeling with a god figure and feel like they matter and somebody looks after them. This is why wealthy nations start to lose more into the god believe system and poor nations more.

But why is god not evil because killing people?

Killing people don't make you evil, that never was the case. A military person that drops a bomb on a bunch of people in syria is stated as war hero in america while he's the ultimate evil in syria. Locking a person in a cage for the rest of there life like a animal or killing him with death panaloty because he had a different set of moral structures is also acceptable and isn't seen as evil by entire society's. Killing people off that are sick by doctors is seen in some country's as a evil doctor in other country's as perfectly normal.

Rules are made by conquerors or rulers. If thanatos would wipe out the entire universe of people besides 2 kids he leaves alive and give them a book on how to live there life, then thanatos would be seen as a good guy and could even be a god figure indeed like thanatos.

The thing what made thanatos evil is because he had no lasting projection of power or was capable to push his moral set os structure over a longer time of period over that universe because that wasn't his goal.

It’s not that he simply kills people. That was not his argument. His argument was that it is a pattern of killing being justified by his followers under the guise that there is an ultamate reason for it all. There is even more to it honestly. What kind of “good” god makes people love him worship him and follow his orders and If you don’t he will punish you and send you to hell forever. What kind of god kills millions of people but has the right to judge a mortal for murder.

 

[O-N-E]

What kind of “good” god makes people love him worship him and follow his orders and If you don’t he will punish you and send you to hell forever.

If there was no importance to Him or His words then you'd forget about Him and His laws and go straight towards sin.

How much can it hurt your ego to worship a God who created you and everything else?

What kind of god kills millions of people but has the right to judge a mortal for murder.

You don't know the accounts of the world or what death is. You equate God and His actions to that of a human in order to justify your point of view.

 

[Halo is Back]

Can God create a square circle?

Answer this and you'll debunk your chain of questions.

God is not possible of doing the logically impossible (forcing free will agents to be good).

God is not responsible for creating free will agents that do bad, nor is he bad for allowing a system to test the limits of free will agents moral responsibilities towards each other.

Why?

Because God is good, and he doesn't want slave-robots that only do what he tells them to.

Therefore, he is in the position of a parent to billions of minds, and wants to help us become loving and responsible adults.

You're imposing things on God he isn't imposing on you.

Earth is amazing. The universe is amazing. When we corrupt the obvious laws of nature, and the laws of the creator as revealed to man (do not steal, do not be jealous, do not kill, etc) we ruin the creation.

(sorry, don't mean to keep replying to your posts, but you make substantive points which are worth responding to lol)

If there was no importance to Him or His words then you'd forget about Him and His laws and go straight towards sin.

How much can it hurt your ego to worship a God who created you and everything else?

You don't know the accounts of the world or what death is. You equate God and His actions to that of a human in order to justify your point of view.

And you are doing the exact same thing as I stated before making excuses for his actions simply because we can not understand yet he dose not even bother to give reasons for his actions to his beloved followers. No he only gives constant silence to everyone. Do you honestly not see the dangerous precedent that sets? Your argument is pointless and goes nowhere. How dare you question God. You are just a stupid mortal.

 

[Singular7]

And you are doing the exact same thing as I stated before making excuses for his actions simply because we can not understand yet he dose not even bother to give reasons for his actions to his beloved followers. No he only gives constant silence to everyone. Do you honestly not see the dangerous precedent that sets? Your argument is pointless and goes nowhere. How dare you question God. You are just a stupid mortal.

No, not the argument.

How many children have you raised? I've raised 1.

God is dealing with hundreds of billions of minds, and trying to gently push them towards "love your neighbor as yourself" without making us robots.

Add to that a question "does God have the right to define good and evil?" (the question of the tree in the garden)

Bare minimum: address these topics. Satan is making an argument "God is wrong, you can define good/evil for yourself, and be just like him". I disagree, God is correct and his laws are good, only love of neighbor, forgiveness, and ultimately love, creates the mutually beneficial situation for all.

"relativism" is our current world. "I will define what is good for myself" (says billions of minds)

Read Job, 33 - 40 will blow your mind.

 

[Kenpachii]

It’s not that he simply kills people. That was not his argument. His argument was that it is a pattern of killing being justified by his followers under the guise that there is an ultamate reason for it all. There is even more to it honestly. What kind of “good” god makes people love him worship him and follow his orders and If you don’t he will punish you and send you to hell forever. What kind of god kills millions of people but has the right to judge a mortal for murder.

It's very simple actually.

What kind of kid thinks his dad is a good dad when he gets his ass whooped because he hitted the neighbors kid a few times or jonked something from somebody that the kid tought was fair but dad decided to learn him another believe system on the spot.

What kind of dad would get any respect this way? its impossible right? how can a dad do harm and still be beloved by that kid?

Yet kid cries when dad dies all night long.

?????????

Like i said killing doesn't make somebody evil. It's the ruler / moral set that rules at that point what decides what is good or not. This is why you got country's, religions, cultures etc. This is also why multicultural society's give tensions and the only way to keep it under a lock is aggressive ruling that says what u should think and punishes you if you do not apply and these value's and morals change over time as power shifts.

Like i said its a dad figure with a rule set of morals that involve punishment if you do not obey. Because asking nicely doesn't get you anywhere.

And about killing millions of people.

What right does US court have to judge somebody on killing one person, while US government blows up 100k people yearly with bombs everywhere around the world? because US court says that's the way and we decide so. And there you go.

 

[O-N-E]

And you are doing the exact same thing as I stated before making excuses for his actions simply because we can not understand yet he dose not even bother to give reasons for his actions to his beloved followers. No he only gives constant silence to everyone. Do you honestly not see the dangerous precedent that sets? Your argument is pointless and goes nowhere. How dare you question God. You are just a stupid mortal.

Reasons?

Reasons for what? If you're talking about Judaism (my side of the tracks), he gives you reasons in the five books of Moses.

If you don't like the reasons, you're free to go do something else.

I'm not "excusing" anything. It's not for me to excuse Him. It's not for anyone.

You either believe or you don't.

If you don't, then you live in a world without morality and no free will.

The End.

 

[Halo is Back]

No, not the argument.

How many children have you raised? I've raised 1.

God is dealing with hundreds of billions of minds, and trying to gently push them towards "love your neighbor as yourself" without making us robots.

Add to that a question "does God have the right to define good and evil?" (the question of the tree in the garden)

Bare minimum: address these topics. Satan is making an argument "God is wrong, you can define good/evil for yourself, and be just like him". I disagree, God is correct and his laws are good, only love of neighbor, forgiveness, and ultimately love, creates the mutually beneficial situation for all.

"relativism" is our current world. "I will define what is good for myself" (says billions of minds)

Read Job, 33 - 40 will blow your mind.

You do not need gods laws to be a good person in life or morals. I really have no idea where you are going with this or what you are trying to say.

 

[MiyazakiHatesKojima]

Ok, I'll try to give this to you crumb by crumb.

• Something that is rational will follow the natural order of the world
• The main rule is cause and effect
• Cause and effect is ultimately predictable.
• You were born with certain attributes and those attributes predict your effect on the world, your trajectory, your ultimate destination. Destiny. Whatever "good" or "bad" "decisions" you make.
• Therefore, free will is naturally impossible. It is paradoxical. Only possible in an irrational world, above the natural world. Supernatural.
• God is the creator of the natural world, above it. The creator of all. He can cause the supernatural.
• Therefore, only God can give you the supernatural gift of free will

Done

and Begone.

They ain't ready for this kind of talk

I learned the hard way not to speak about my beliefs in GAF and its best we don't because as much as we'd like it, this is not the platform to talk about this topic, from either point of view.

 

[MetalAlien]

don't see how you make light bad without breaking every rule

People always want to think they are made in the image of god. Just like a mirror the image is opposite.

 

[Halo is Back]

Reasons?

Reasons for what? If you're talking about Judaism (my side of the tracks), he gives you reasons in the five books of Moses.

If you don't like the reasons, you're free to go do something else.

I'm not "excusing" anything. It's not for me to excuse Him. It's not for anyone.

You either believe or you don't.

If you don't, then you live in a world without morality and no free will.

The End.

How about the reasons for when he toured his poor devout follower just to prove a childish point to satan. How about reasons to forever damn someone to hell because they killed themselves. How about reasons for flooding the entire world killing millions. Why dose he not ever speak to his followers when they beg for guidance. How about asking Abraham to kill his son just because he said so. I could go on really.

Funny you say if I don’t believe in him I have no free will yet I am calling him a hypocrite and denouncing my fait years ago. To me the ultimate act of evil is eternally damming someone to hell.

 

[O-N-E]

How about the reasons for when he toured his poor devout follower just to prove a childish point to satan. How about reasons to forever damn someone to hell because they killed themselves. How about reasons for flooding the entire world killing millions. Why dose he not ever speak to his followers when they beg for guidance. How about asking Abraham to kill his son just because he said so. I could go on really.

Funny you say if I don’t believe in him I have no free will yet I am calling him a hypocrite and denouncing my fait years ago. To me the ultimate act of evil is eternally damming someone to hell.

You're mixing Judaism and Christianity here. You don't get damned to hell forever in Judaism, but either way, it doesn't matter.

Remember I told you, if you don't like the reason? Do something else.

And yes, if God doesn't exist, you have no free will. Since you have no free will, no morality can exist either.

It's simple.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Most people can recognize this truth.

 

[Halo is Back]

You're mixing Judaism and Christianity here. You don't get damned to hell forever in Judaism, but either way, it doesn't matter.

Remember I told you, if you don't like the reason? Do something else.

And yes, if God doesn't exist, you have no free will. Since you have no free will, no morality can exist either.

It's simple.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Most people can recognize this truth.

Why dose it not matter? What is your logical reasoning to believe in the god in Judaism vs Christianity? What makes your religion more truthful than the thousands of other who swore on their life they existed? How do you believe something that you can’t possibly prove and how can you say that no free will exist without god with a shadow of a doubt when you can’t possibly prove god even exist in the first place. I also find it funny that god only showed himself thousands of years ago but after that he has forever remained silent. If he is the father of all creation why did he need a man to write his book? You literally just said if I don’t believe in him then I have no free will and that makes me an immoral person.

 

[Halo is Back]

We really can go around in circles all night and that is because god is an abstract concept that can’t be possible proven or disproven. Everyone has their own beliefs and interpretations of what god is and his intentions. This is the exact reason why I can’t possibly take religion seriously because it is all a air of uncertainty. Why is it even so important for us to follow and love god and believe in him, why dose god need constant validation from his creations since he forbid us to practice other religions.

 

[O-N-E]

Why dose it not matter? What is your logical reasoning to believe in the god in Judaism vs Christianity? What makes your religion more truthful than the thousands of other who swore on their life they existed? How do you believe something that you can’t possibly prove and how can you say that no free will exist without god with a shadow of a doubt when you can’t possibly prove god even exist in the first place. I also find it funny that god only showed himself thousands of years ago but after that he has forever remained silent. If he is the father of all creation why did he need a man to write his book? You literally just said if I don’t believe in him then I have no free will and that makes me an immoral person.

You're misdirecting. This conversation wasn't about which religion to believe in. This thread asks the question "is God a villain"? I'm answering that if you're an atheist and you're right, that means there is no morality. No ultimate responsibility. No free will being exerted. Just one definite direction for you until the end.

You're just having a hard time accepting that and complaining about God and all the different religions. You want to lose the yoke of responsibility and service to good, yet keep your freedom of choice. It's impossible.

 

[Bernkastel]

But why is god not evil because killing people?

But why does he want to kill more to save a few? This is why darkmatter used the trolley problem, instead of killing 1 to save 5, god chose to kill 5 to save 1.

 

[Taxexemption]

Imagine God is throwing a party, and this life where we exist without certainty for the reason why, and take moral actions in that context is how he makes his guest list.


We may all have different starting circumstances but we are not judged by the same standards, to whom much is given much is expected.

 

[Tesseract]

But why does he want to kill more to save a few? This is why darkmatter used the trolley problem, instead of killing 1 to save 5, god chose to kill 5 to save 1.

why not

'have i not commanded you?'

 

[Stiflers Mom]

The ibrahimitic god is such a horrible entity, and the whole world would be better off if they still followed their native religions instead of that gruesome imported shite.

 

[Ikutachi]

 

[royox]

My GF has no idea of the christian religion so every time we travel and visit cathedrals or museums I have to explain her all the details and "omg this god looks like the bad guy of this story" was one of her first reactions

We are also starting LUCIFER in Netflix, so the thing is not helping xD

 

[Tesseract]

how do people get through western life without reading the bible at least once

not even a spiritual question, this

 

[Mista]

Satan was never a god. Satan was an angel that opposed god and god then turned that angel to a satan to make an example.

 

[GymWolf]

He is more of a fictional character.

 

[Ornlu]

You do not need gods laws to be a good person in life or morals. I really have no idea where you are going with this or what you are trying to say.

Your current view of morality comes from religion. Even atheistic morality stems from religion. Take away all religious tradition and law and reset humanity to a bestial state, and you won't like what you end up with.

People always want to think they are made in the image of god. Just like a mirror the image is opposite.

Could you elaborate?

But why does he want to kill more to save a few? This is why darkmatter used the trolley problem, instead of killing 1 to save 5, god chose to kill 5 to save 1.

If God created all 6, and 5 of those aren't doing what is asked of them, and 1 is...why not start over with the 1?

The ibrahimitic god is such a horrible entity, and the whole world would be better off if they still followed their native religions instead of that gruesome imported shite.

Yeah, ok. I'm sure you'd totally have that view if you were born a boy into the Sambia tribe and had to get gangbanged by your elder males in the village to become a man. Are we gonna pretend that native rituals and practices are always good? Please.

My GF has no idea of the christian religion so every time we travel and visit cathedrals or museums I have to explain her all the details and "omg this god looks like the bad guy of this story" was one of her first reactions

We are also starting LUCIFER in Netflix, so the thing is not helping xD

What is your GF's religious background?

 

[Sorcerer]

Piers Anthony "On A Pale Horse" series has a very interesting. humorous take on this subject.

 

[Bernkastel]

If God created all 6, and 5 of those aren't doing what is asked of them, and 1 is...why not start over with the 1?

Isnt that the definition of a dictator? Killing people for not believing in you.
ISIS also kills people who dont believe in their ideology. They want a world where only those who believe in them exist.