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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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PaintTinJr

Member
If you use the slower RAM at all, the whole bandwidth goes down to the slower speed

So you have 2 choices: faster bandwidth limited to 10 GB of RAM for games

slower bandwidth with 16 GB of RAM (13.5 GB for games)
I don’t believe that is correct.

IIRC they said both can be used discretely at full speed - adding the bandwidths probably when loading CPU and GPU data at game boot and game loading, but once the CPU or GPU touches the opposite portions of memory then the whole 16GB drops to the slower 336GB/s speed.

In reality how you can have a game doing user input controller reads at (Nyquist–Shannon) sampling (theorem) rates to update the CPU workload 120, 60 or 30 times per second, that then alter the GPU workload without dropping memory speed whne updates are a constant stream of isochronous traffic is an interesting conundrum - maybe DMA’ing from main memory to the SSD and then DMA’ing from the SSD to GPU constantly would bypass the memory hit of controller updating game logic; and also allow GPU physics simulations to impact gameplay logic in the CPU(audio processing too) instead of just eye candy physics confined to GPU memory.

Maybe the higher Zen2 clocks and ability to disable SMT are for doing gameplay phyiscs logic entirely on the CPU. They've probably got some secret sauce that handles all this without a hit, but I don't recall it being mentioned, or maybe I've misunderstood.
 
The only ones embarrassing themselves are those Xbox fanboys who are spouting non-truths and spreading their "TFlops TFlops TFlops" fallacy all over the place.

If MS have more Flops, it's because of AMD beastliness, and nothing to do with MS.

Most people are actually trying to have a reasonable discussion about PS5 because it's simply technically more interesting. XSX is nothing more than a small PC and everyone knew almost everything about it months ago.
Maybe this is also a bit too much. We don't know everything about SeX either.
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
this was shared here multiple times but you are still trying to force your narrative


Yes, hardware-based, but a vanilla chip level, supplementary with standard workload, nothing ground breaking.

“It’s extremely exciting,” senior sound designer Daniele Galante said of the new console. “We’re going to have a dedicated chip to work with audio, which means we finally won’t have to fight with programmers and artists for memory and CPU power.”

So it's supplementary for the CPU and memory as it's already starving with 10GB, the GPU will still do the math, hence 20% workload.



ETmoYvkXQAE2kzC


Persuasive Microsoft wording, as usual.
 
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Bogroll

Likes moldy games
No, times are hard when fanboys dont see real technical advancements from being a fanboy.

Fact is that there have not been similar real 3D audio in any consoles so far, so how can you or anybody say that "it is just same sound chip vs sound chip like always"?

If we trust in Cernys words, and it is really something new, not this basic "hmm game sound comes maybe from left / back etc" but in the best scenario it is like "I dont feel like I hear game sounds from headphones, it feels like I am literally inside the gaming world"

Then it could be kind of what VR is for visuals and how it makes you feel that you are inside the game.

So, if this is the case, then it could be true that "normal sound chip" would not be enough, and using same setup as xbox would use xx% of cpu/gpu to do the calculations

Which case is more probable:

A) Sony used millions to build this custom 3D audio chip. Registered hundred people inside the audio recording room with microphones inside their ear canals to perfect the technology, told us about it in long presentation and it is really something new and using regural setup + cpu/gpu would spend lot of performance to it

B) Sony is lying and they just spent millions for fun and it is really just same as regular audio chip


I guess xbox fans / gamers in general are just fucking stupid, if they cant look tech as tech, instead of screaming how everything is bullshit, Sony is bullshit, their advancements are bullshit and xbox won the gen just because few tflops.

Both consoles are strong, both have bit different approach and goals.

Consoles arent even launched and people speak like they have already played PS5 games and 3d audio is nothing special, SSD isnt nothing special and so on. Pure idiocy
Underlined: Calm down you silly boy.
Bold: Yes and people speak like they have already played the PS5 games and 3d audio is going to be the best thing since sliced bread. SSD is going to totally change games for ever with more detailed this more detailed that. Ps5 is going to be really quiet with the best cooling ever. TF's don't matter. Works both ways you see. Pure idiocy.
 
Oh really? such as?
Dunno, they really revealed every fucking thing of the hardware right now?
Woah, it's not like they have games or nothing, what they will do now? Videos about swapping games for all 2020?

No but srly, I guess they took their time to engineer this, for instance they probably tested that RAM solution thousands times I suppose. Probably there are other differences, it's still a console.
 

K.N.W.

Member
Because they want it to go down 8 or even 7TF. They wish for it intensely, with their whole heart.

7 years. Please understand.
And then (bipolarly) start complaining about the underpowered PS5 limiting graphics on any platform. It's cool because I already saw this scene twice, with PS3 (which to be honest had some problems, but also had some nasty power) and PS4 (XB1's higher CPU clock and ESRAM were cool, but c'monnnnnn), and I know it goes on with Sony showing the games and the narrative changing, at least starting from media outlets. When we'll have to compare for two years higher resolution cross-gen games running on a 12 TFs machine, against purely next-gen games made by first party Sony developers (many times kings of graphics since Uncharted: Drake's Fortune), the only (vegan) crow they'll eat is the one they cooked with their hands.
Not even minding PS5's custom hardware, or the fact that probably XSX is an aguament console (beside rumors, there's and X after Xbox Series, and Microsoft clearly said that Series X is one of the models in the series family), so games would target Lockhart as a base, and PS5 PRO is almost guaranteed.

What would anybody think about just upselling his console instead of downplaying others? I won't buy an XSX since the games are going to be released on PC, and I want Sony to win by a wide margin, but having Microsoft doing nice sales and games is not bad for anybody. But all this narrative is just..... Vomit inducing.

And I laugh at media outlets buying into this..... If I speak the truth, and we are really comparing a base console to an aguamented one... Well, it must be really time to wake up then!

Everybody, have fun and play what you want!

I honestly think Sony's custom handling of the SSD and Tempest are going to be exceptional and well thought, but there's almost no freedom of speech about those... We got to the point where (the probably fake) rumors say the SSD is going to make games slower... URGH... And if there's no Lockhart, and XSX is more expensive than PS5.... Then goodnight to the musicians, we say in Italy (the party is over).
 
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scie

Member
Aww man... the next consoles need to be released asap! Otherwise we will see another 1564 pages of theorycrafting posts with random numbers going up and down every day...
 
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Neo Blaster

Member
Man, everybody locked at home without many things to do will have to take all that crap from fanboys for months. I'm afraid we won't see any next gen gameplay from Sony till after GoT is released. At least if we could have some technical demos...
 

Kusarigama

Member
this was shared here multiple times but you are still trying to force your narrative

It's a dedicated audio chip alright but xbox one had a similarly called chip which only helped in decoding of 100s mp3/audio files(something like it). Proper positional 3D audio requires a lot more. It is no where near what the Tempest Engine does.
 
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ethomaz

Banned
AMD already said that they co-developed the GPU.
Nope... never said that.

AMD said they do-developed DXR 1.1 with Microsoft.

I don’t know why Xbox fans create so much fake news.


Sony also did the same thing because these are not off-the-shelf parts. I would have to say 90% of the plaudits should go to AMD though, for both system.
What he said is 100% bullshit.
 
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And then (bipolarly) start complaining about the underpowered PS5 limiting graphics on any platform. It's cool because I already saw this scene twice, with PS3 (which to be honest had some problems, but also had some nasty power) and PS4 (XB1's higher CPU clock and ESRAM were cool, but c'monnnnnn), and I know it goes on with Sony showing the games and the narrative changing, at least starting from media outlets. When we'll have to compare for two years higher resolution cross-gen games running on a 12 TFs machine, against purely next-gen games made by first party Sony developers (many times kings of graphics since Uncharted: Drake's Fortune), the only (vegan) crow they'll eat is the one they cooked with their hands.
Not even minding PS5's custom hardware, or the fact that probably XSX is an aguament console (beside rumors, there's and X after Xbox Series, and Microsoft clearly said that Series X is one of the models in the series family), so games would target Lockhart as a base, and PS5 PRO is almost guaranteed.

What would anybody think about just upselling his console instead of downplaying others? I won't buy an XSX since the games are going to be released on PC, and I want Sony to win by a wide margin, but having Microsoft doing nice sales and games is not bad for anybody. But all this narrative is just..... Vomit inducing.

And I laugh at media outlets buying into this..... If I speak the truth, and we are really comparing a base console to an aguamented one... Well, it must be really time to wake up then!

Everybody, have fun and play what you want!

I honestly think Sony's custom handling of the SSD and Tempest are going to be exceptional and well thought, but there's almost no freedom of speech about those... We got to the point where (the probably fake) rumors say the SSD is going to make games slower... URGH... And if there's no Lockhart, and XSX is more expensive than PS5.... Then goodnight to the music players, we say in Italy (the party is over).
Hi Italian friend!
But please do no translate Italian saying in English, it's a bestemmia.
 

Lone Wolf

Member
Yes, hardware-based, but a vanilla chip level, supplementary with standard workload, nothing ground breaking.

“It’s extremely exciting,” senior sound designer Daniele Galante said of the new console. “We’re going to have a dedicated chip to work with audio, which means we finally won’t have to fight with programmers and artists for memory and CPU power.”

So it's supplementary for the CPU and memory as it's already starving with 10GB, the GPU will still do the math, hence 20% workload.



ETmoYvkXQAE2kzC


Persuasive Microsoft wording, as usual.

It takes 20% GPU power for audio? I don’t believe it.
 

Imtjnotu

Member
What Is the Tempest Engine in PS5?
The Tempest Engine is effectively the hardware chip inside the PS5 which makes all of this fancy 3D audio technology possible. As explained by Digital Foundry, the "Tempest Engine is effectively a re-engineered AMD GPU compute unit, stripped of its caches and relying solely on DMA transfers".

Fascinatingly, to accurately create 3D audio, Sony needs to data called the Head-related Transfer Function, which is unique to every person based on their ear and head shape. There'll be at least five profiles available at launch based on over 100 people, and you'll be able to configure this based on your personal optimum settings. But the manufacturer wants to find a way to perfectly personalise this data for every user, and this may involve you eventually taking and uploading photos of your ears.



------------

In other words, it's GPU core, hardware-based:

-------------

Project Acoustics is a wave acoustics engine for 3D interactive experiences. It models wave effects like occlusion, obstruction, portaling and reverberation effects in complex scenes without requiring manual zone markup or CPU intensive ray tracing. It also includes game engine and audio middleware integration. Project Acoustics' philosophy is similar to static lighting: bake detailed physics offline to provide a physical baseline, and use a lightweight runtime with expressive design controls to meet your artistic goals for the acoustics of your virtual world. Ray-based acoustics methods can check for occlusion using a single source-to-listener ray cast, or drive reverb by estimating local scene volume with a few rays. But these techniques can be unreliable because a pebble occludes as much as a boulder. Rays don't account for the way sound bends around objects, a phenomenon known as diffraction. Project Acoustics' simulation captures these effects using a wave-based simulation. The acoustics are more predictable, accurate and seamless. Project Acoustics' key innovation is to couple real sound wave-based acoustic simulation with traditional sound design concepts. It translates simulation results into traditional audio DSP parameters for occlusion, portaling, and reverb. The designer uses controls over this translation process.


-----------

Kind of vague. Sounds like software-based with too much fancy words. But nothing more than mediocre quality. Details will show more later.

And this is hardware-based:
------------

Sony is going big on audio with PS5.

The PS5 is able to place a much bigger emphasis on audio thanks to the inclusion of a dedicated hardware chip called the Tempest Engine.

Sony recognises that audio processing took a step back on PS4 compared to PS3, and wanted to deliver 3D audio for everyone with PS5. This is where the Tempest Engine comes in. The Tempest Engine is a re-purposed GPU compute unit, inspired by the PS3’s SPUs with an SIMD performance and bandwidth comparable to eight PS4 CPU cores combined.

It is capable of supporting hundreds of sound sources, such as simulating individual raindrops in a rainy or shower scene. It’s also capable of what lead system architect, Mark Cerny, referred to in his talk as “locality,” which takes into account the precise shape of your ear and head to further thrust you into the virtual world.



---------

Unprecedented 3D audio fidelity via the Tempest 3D Audio Engine.


--------
the thing alot of people missed on this was that it works with any headphones or head set used by the player

so either through bluetooth or plugged into the controller you should be able to take advantage of Tempest. no need for some shmancy 3rd or first party headset
 

pasterpl

Member
Yes, hardware-based, but a vanilla chip level, supplementary with standard workload, nothing ground breaking.

“It’s extremely exciting,” senior sound designer Daniele Galante said of the new console. “We’re going to have a dedicated chip to work with audio, which means we finally won’t have to fight with programmers and artists for memory and CPU power.”

So it's supplementary for the CPU and memory as it's already starving with 10GB, the GPU will still do the math, hence 20% workload.



ETmoYvkXQAE2kzC


Persuasive Microsoft wording, as usual.


i have feeling like we already had the same conversation 10-20 pages ago, with the same quotes :messenger_blowing_kiss:

With full support for Dolby Atmos, DTS:X and Windows Sonic, Xbox Series X has custom audio hardware to offload audio processing from the CPU

 
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CJY

Banned
Nope... never said that.

AMD said they do-developed DXR 1.1 with Microsoft.

I don’t know why Xbox fans create so much fake news.



What he said is 100% bullshit.
Who said what now? You talking about Cerny?

Are you saying the APUs weren't collaborative efforts between the respective parties?
 

pasterpl

Member
It's a dedicated audio chip alright but xbox one had a similarly called chip which only helped in decoding of 100s mp3/audio files(something like it). Proper positional 3D audio requires a lot more. It is no where near what the Tempest Engine does.

tales from your arse? I love how some people are coming to conclusions with limited info we have got, purely on their bias towards specific console.

Project Acoustics – Incubated over a decade by Microsoft Research, Project Acoustics accurately models sound propagation physics in mixed reality and games, employed by many AAA experiences today. It is unique in simulating wave effects like diffraction in complex scene geometries without straining CPU, enabling a much more immersive and lifelike auditory experience. Plug-in support for both the Unity and Unreal game engines empower the sound designer with expressive controls to mold reality. Developers will be able to easily leverage Project Acoustics with Xbox Series X through the addition of a new custom audio hardware block.
 
Bo_Hazem Bo_Hazem I dont have a PS2 or PS3. I invested a LOT of money on those systems and its games, just to realize that its not going to carry over. That is a GOD DAMN shame. I vowed myself I will never let that happen to me ever again. For fucks sake, the original Xbox uses an Intel CPU and NVIDIA GPU, and still managed to cross over to next gen and ENHANCED.
 

BGs

Industry Professional

Example.

It is quite old, but it can be used by those who have doubts about the nextgen quality.

When you reach these levels other things start to be relevant, like creativity and stories.

This should be the base quality of ThirdParty games for both of them.

PS. I know, I haven't responded to many quotes. I keep them in mind. It will be easier for me from the PC when it is recovered and calm than from the phone these days.
 

Shio

Member
No idea but he makes allot of claims that if true are very interesting, especially both consoles being bandwidth starved, which they are for 4K thats for sure.

It also fits with all the developer gossip saying they are the same, insiders thought that meant both are 12 TF, maybe it means they get to the same point differently ?

Watch it, read stuff here, Beyond 3d, Resetera etc and make your own mind up which narritive fits all the puzzles.
Maybe insiders knew alot earlier that the xbox would be 12TF and heard that the PS5 was performing better so assumed it had a higher TF number rather than custom chips to offload work to get the same job done
 

CJY

Banned
The APU? Yes.
The GPU... no.

AMD never said they co-developed the GPU.
Just the API for Ray-tracing.
On MS side, yes, maybe, I'm not sure.

But Sony I think had a large part to play in the creation of RDNA. Is that true?

Cerny said it here: (timestamped)



Edit: nevermind, I see what's going on now, sorry
 
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Bo_Hazem

Banned
i have feeling like we already had the same conversation 10-20 pages ago, with the same quotes :messenger_blowing_kiss:




You are an honest man, I know you are serious and not trolling like some others. But Microsoft are twisting words here if they compare it to the PS5 solution that's been point out directly as an independent GPU compute unit. Xbox's solution is only freeing more RAM and CPU, it's not a GPU CU like The Tempest Engine 3D Audio, so the main GPU MUST do the math, but the extra processing is offloading to another chip, which is still amazing, but the stress and taxing is still the same on the GPU side. Nonetheless it's still smarter than nothing. Warm regards.
 

Example.

It is quite old, but it can be used by those who have doubts about the nextgen quality.

When you reach these levels other things start to be relevant, like creativity and stories.

This should be the base quality of ThirdParty games for both of them.

PS. I know, I haven't responded to many quotes. I keep them in mind. It will be easier for me from the PC when it is recovered and calm than from the phone these days.

People will realize the potential of next gen sooner or later.
Also, use multiquote to memorize them, it's easier.
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
the thing alot of people missed on this was that it works with any headphones or head set used by the player

so either through bluetooth or plugged into the controller you should be able to take advantage of Tempest. no need for some shmancy 3rd or first party headset

They MUST put it on their next lineup of TV's and even offer it for other TV brands as a superior solution with much cheaper asking price.
 
Does anyone here really thinks that, even though Microsoft has dedicated audio hardware on the XSX, there'll be a 20% performance impact on games? I just can't believe anyone believes this. lol

Sony's approach is better in this sense, yes, the Tempest Engine is awesome. But this narrative that the XSX will lose a lot of performance just to have decent audio is just idiotic.
 

SSfox

Member
Of course there will have to be proven as always, but PS5 seems super exciting in paper based on what we know:

- Very powerful system
- Super fast loading
- The audio part very exciting too
- PS4 BC is in, and most games should run on it.
- Cerny promise a nice cooling system, so the console should be silent in any games. (It was really something i looked forward, knowing PS34 first generations has been loud, but seems they took this aspect seriously this time around which is great news imo)

Bonus: Pure speculation but i suspect the console won't be that huge as XSX, of course we'll have to wait and see for this one.

As it is right now literally my only concern is now full BC, PS4 BC is awesome, but i also want PS123 + PSP and Vita BC.
 

Example.

It is quite old, but it can be used by those who have doubts about the nextgen quality.

When you reach these levels other things start to be relevant, like creativity and stories.

This should be the base quality of ThirdParty games for both of them.

PS. I know, I haven't responded to many quotes. I keep them in mind. It will be easier for me from the PC when it is recovered and calm than from the phone these days.


I still don't believe that will be possible for next gen. Although (assuming it was real time) the Senua Hellblade 2 trailer looked fairly close.
 
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Kusarigama

Member
tales from your arse? I love how some people are coming to conclusions with limited info we have got, purely on their bias towards specific console.
Project acoustics is a different topic, it's more of a software thing. Hardware wise xsx audio chip doesn't do 3d audio decoding. Sony had to put a dedicated 3d audio chip in the PSVR processing unit because PS4 couldn't do 3d audio.
 

SamWeb

Member
Does anyone here really thinks that, even though Microsoft has dedicated audio hardware on the XSX, there'll be a 20% performance impact on games? I just can't believe anyone believes this. lol

Sony's approach is better in this sense, yes, the Tempest Engine is awesome. But this narrative that the XSX will lose a lot of performance just to have decent audio is just idiotic.
2.23 GHz GPU (36CU) in a small closed case... It sounds convincing, right? (NO)
 

CJY

Banned
Does anyone here really thinks that, even though Microsoft has dedicated audio hardware on the XSX, there'll be a 20% performance impact on games? I just can't believe anyone believes this. lol

Sony's approach is better in this sense, yes, the Tempest Engine is awesome. But this narrative that the XSX will lose a lot of performance just to have decent audio is just idiotic.
I don't believe this. I believe that each sound source used might consume 1 shader of a CU as it's being used.

If you have 5000 sounds, that would take 5000 shaders. What PS5's SPU can do it just take all that away from the GPU altogether.

Obviously it's gotta be a lot more complex than this, I just don't know any better.

I also dunno how many sound sources MS's solution is able to do, and I can't find any citations that Project Acoustics leverages a custom 3d audio chip. From what I can gather, Project Acoustics seems like a software solution that runs on the GPU and is even available for use in Unity.

If that is that case, then how much GPU their 3d audio solution takes up is entirely up to the developer. In an audio-heavy game, who knows, it could be up to 20%, whereas on PS5, the audio will never touch the GPU.
 
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TLZ

Banned
Yes, hardware-based, but a vanilla chip level, supplementary with standard workload, nothing ground breaking.

“It’s extremely exciting,” senior sound designer Daniele Galante said of the new console. “We’re going to have a dedicated chip to work with audio, which means we finally won’t have to fight with programmers and artists for memory and CPU power.”

So it's supplementary for the CPU and memory as it's already starving with 10GB, the GPU will still do the math, hence 20% workload.



ETmoYvkXQAE2kzC


Persuasive Microsoft wording, as usual.

Who is this guy?
 
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