martino
Member
arithmetic is free is from communication point of view (seems obvious)
and this still don't explain how ssd can solve communication costs nvidia are trying to avoid with RAM...
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Coreteks: Detailed video about why he think PS5 will be the better console because of the I/O & SSD
and this still don't explain how ssd can solve communication costs nvidia are trying to avoid with RAM...
CJY
Banned
I genuinely think >90% of Xbox fans here have refused to watch this video yet come in here to shit on CoreTeks for being a shill when he is nothing of the sort.
Won't listen to DF, won't listen to Cerny, won't listen to Moore's Law is Dead, won't listen to JS, won't listen to coreteks, NXgamer, won't listen to dozens of devs.
And I'm supposed to be the delusional one.
Xbox fans:
Won't listen to DF, won't listen to Cerny, won't listen to Moore's Law is Dead, won't listen to JS, won't listen to coreteks, NXgamer, won't listen to dozens of devs.
And I'm supposed to be the delusional one.
Xbox fans:
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Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
It's not like the PS5 isn't powerful too especially with the eliminating bottlenecks.
Keep in mind Mark Cerny goes on world tours to ask developers what they want in next generation consoles
hunthunt
Banned
Bernkastel
I mean, real developers, not clueless paid youtubers like the guys of Digital Founder or dumbasses like Tim Dog or other twitters that heard someone say something.
Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
I've noticed some people refuse to believe any positive feature of the PS5 internalsI genuinely think >90% of Xbox fans here have refused to watch this video yet come in here to shit on CoreTeks for being a shill when he is nothing of the sort.
Won't listen to DF, won't listen to Cerny, won't listen to Moore's Law is Dead, won't listen to JS, won't listen to coreteks, NXgamer, won't listen to dozens of devs.
And I'm supposed to be the delusional one.
Xbox fans:
Burrito Bandito
Banned
everyone is misterxmedia these days
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
The guy replying to Tim Dog is an ex-Guerilla Games dev. Other guy has worked on Space X, Valve and Enemble. There are also other indie devs but GAF does not like them because they are indie, so I am not posting them. Ironically some of the devs who jumped on the SSD jargon and 3D Audio are sound designers PS4 indie games.
I mean, real developers, not clueless paid youtubers like the guys of Digital Founder or dumbasses like Tim Dog or other twitters that heard someone say something.
Also, you are pissed off at Digital Foundry but replying to a thread about an even more clueless and biased YouTuber(his whole channel is a fanfic).
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Batiman
Banned
Ya for sure it’s gonna be a powerful console and I’m excited for it myself. But people need to accept facts. The XSX will hold the power crown regardless of how fast PS5 ssd is.It's not like the PS5 isn't powerful too especially with the eliminating bottlenecks.
Keep in mind Mark Cerny goes on world tours to ask developers what they want in next generation consoles
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Interesting how he and AdoredTV have about the complete opposite reaction with the consoles. I enjoy both their content tho and I can see a lot of Corelek's points, same with AdoredTV's.
Granted, everyone's drawing conclusions from incomplete info on both systems, and things are likely to change. My own personal take on both systems at the moment is that I see them more or less equal when you weigh everything out. There's the obvious stuff: PS5 has the faster GPU and SSD, XSX has the bigger GPU, faster CPU, more RT abilities etc.
However there's still too many unknowns to definitively say which one is better. For PS5, we still don't really know how big a frequency drop there'll be on the GPU and CPU sides. Cerny said a 10% power reduction for 2% drop, but that's what he expects, based on theoretical use-cases. We'll have to wait until REAL use-cases from third-parties come out until we can get an actual number. That's why while I'll take the 2% claim on face value, internally I'm thinking it'll be more between 2% - 5%, but that's the maximum amount. Remember, Cerny's not just the lead engineer, he's also effectively the PR guy for PS5 atm, so they're..kinda gonna embellish certain claims no matter what.
On the XSX side there's a few things I'm concerned about as well. Mainly, I need to know EXACTLY how that memory setup works. We don't even know the full I/O setup yet (there's apparently lots of details on the Velocity Architecture and BCPack they've been holding back on). We don't even know what customizations they've done with the RT (such as perhaps adding more cache, something they would probably need more than Sony), etc.
It's really too early to say which system is better but I think it's probably safe to assume the PS5 has a permanent SSD advantage regardless of what MS does, though that delta could get smaller once we find out more info. For XSX, it has a pure GPU advantage and volatile memory bandwidth advantage, those are things that will be permanent thanks to just giving more physical budget to them, and at least on the GPU side we've seen the absolute peak of where Sony can close that gap (though they could technically up the bandwidth; Oberon C0/E0 was tested with a memory bandwidth of 512 GB/s after all). That makes the XSX better for GPGPU compute tasks like physics, AI, logic etc.
All in all I don't see why people would want to claim one system is better than the other this early out of the gate; I can prefer one system over the other in some aspects, and the other system over the other in other aspects, but their areas of advantages are kind of an apples-to-oranges kind of thing, even if they're using a lot of the same foundational tech. And that's what makes this gen really interesting from a tech POV this time around, unlike the last time. In some ways we're back in that PS3/360 era and that should hopefully bode well for both systems not just in how their hardware gets exploited, but the market health for them and sheer quantity of high-quality games on both systems.
I don't mind if some of my favorite tech YTs prefer PS5 tbh. Coreleks seems to think it'll be a better system, but they rationalize it well. NX Gamer seems think it'll have advantages, which in terms of the SSD, it will. I just differ over how much that SSD advantage will translate to overall system performance is all. Moore's Law Is Dead is probably the only one out of that lot who's preference for PS5 isn't an issue, but some of the conclusions he reached about certain XSX design decisions are an issue, because they weren't based in logical claims IMHO.
Meanwhile guys like AdoredTV seem to see XSX as the better system, Austin Evans, and I'd say RedTechGaming is mainly neutral; they note the advantages and disadvantages of both but just seems to keep it neutral for now. Same with GamingBolt so far.
However, I think the really "interesting" thing has been these developers basically doing PR for PS5. All of them either 1st-party devs, or a 3rd-party who has some exclusive game lined up with the platform. The timing right after the presentation has been...well a bit questionable to say the least. It all falls back on Sony advertising the presentation to the wrong crowd, so while they probably had that date set to stream it well ahead of time, the decision to hype it to regular games felt reactionary in some ways. So now we've got all these Sony devs basically going into clarifications when, if that presentation was better aimed at gamers rather than devs, they wouldn't need to be doing any of this.
Granted, everyone's drawing conclusions from incomplete info on both systems, and things are likely to change. My own personal take on both systems at the moment is that I see them more or less equal when you weigh everything out. There's the obvious stuff: PS5 has the faster GPU and SSD, XSX has the bigger GPU, faster CPU, more RT abilities etc.
However there's still too many unknowns to definitively say which one is better. For PS5, we still don't really know how big a frequency drop there'll be on the GPU and CPU sides. Cerny said a 10% power reduction for 2% drop, but that's what he expects, based on theoretical use-cases. We'll have to wait until REAL use-cases from third-parties come out until we can get an actual number. That's why while I'll take the 2% claim on face value, internally I'm thinking it'll be more between 2% - 5%, but that's the maximum amount. Remember, Cerny's not just the lead engineer, he's also effectively the PR guy for PS5 atm, so they're..kinda gonna embellish certain claims no matter what.
On the XSX side there's a few things I'm concerned about as well. Mainly, I need to know EXACTLY how that memory setup works. We don't even know the full I/O setup yet (there's apparently lots of details on the Velocity Architecture and BCPack they've been holding back on). We don't even know what customizations they've done with the RT (such as perhaps adding more cache, something they would probably need more than Sony), etc.
It's really too early to say which system is better but I think it's probably safe to assume the PS5 has a permanent SSD advantage regardless of what MS does, though that delta could get smaller once we find out more info. For XSX, it has a pure GPU advantage and volatile memory bandwidth advantage, those are things that will be permanent thanks to just giving more physical budget to them, and at least on the GPU side we've seen the absolute peak of where Sony can close that gap (though they could technically up the bandwidth; Oberon C0/E0 was tested with a memory bandwidth of 512 GB/s after all). That makes the XSX better for GPGPU compute tasks like physics, AI, logic etc.
All in all I don't see why people would want to claim one system is better than the other this early out of the gate; I can prefer one system over the other in some aspects, and the other system over the other in other aspects, but their areas of advantages are kind of an apples-to-oranges kind of thing, even if they're using a lot of the same foundational tech. And that's what makes this gen really interesting from a tech POV this time around, unlike the last time. In some ways we're back in that PS3/360 era and that should hopefully bode well for both systems not just in how their hardware gets exploited, but the market health for them and sheer quantity of high-quality games on both systems.
I don't mind if some of my favorite tech YTs prefer PS5 tbh. Coreleks seems to think it'll be a better system, but they rationalize it well. NX Gamer seems think it'll have advantages, which in terms of the SSD, it will. I just differ over how much that SSD advantage will translate to overall system performance is all. Moore's Law Is Dead is probably the only one out of that lot who's preference for PS5 isn't an issue, but some of the conclusions he reached about certain XSX design decisions are an issue, because they weren't based in logical claims IMHO.
Meanwhile guys like AdoredTV seem to see XSX as the better system, Austin Evans, and I'd say RedTechGaming is mainly neutral; they note the advantages and disadvantages of both but just seems to keep it neutral for now. Same with GamingBolt so far.
However, I think the really "interesting" thing has been these developers basically doing PR for PS5. All of them either 1st-party devs, or a 3rd-party who has some exclusive game lined up with the platform. The timing right after the presentation has been...well a bit questionable to say the least. It all falls back on Sony advertising the presentation to the wrong crowd, so while they probably had that date set to stream it well ahead of time, the decision to hype it to regular games felt reactionary in some ways. So now we've got all these Sony devs basically going into clarifications when, if that presentation was better aimed at gamers rather than devs, they wouldn't need to be doing any of this.
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Mendou
Banned
For reference, this is the game that Coreteks mentions as being a likely PS5 exclusive:
The game was announced in 2019, note however that most people are impressed by how it looks. That should get you all more excited about the Xbox considering it's taking that kind of approach of unprecedented visuals vs. PS5's unprecedented SSD speeds. That doesn't mean the game doesn't look fun. However, Microsoft's first-party studios will bring out games that look equal or better with the Series X's power.
As for the rest of Coretek's video, he downplays the Xbox's advantage in power a lot throughout the video for Sony's SSD. With the shrinking first-party games that come out each generation, I believe it remains to be seen as to what advantage third-party games will have for the PS5 apart from faster load times.
The game was announced in 2019, note however that most people are impressed by how it looks. That should get you all more excited about the Xbox considering it's taking that kind of approach of unprecedented visuals vs. PS5's unprecedented SSD speeds. That doesn't mean the game doesn't look fun. However, Microsoft's first-party studios will bring out games that look equal or better with the Series X's power.
As for the rest of Coretek's video, he downplays the Xbox's advantage in power a lot throughout the video for Sony's SSD. With the shrinking first-party games that come out each generation, I believe it remains to be seen as to what advantage third-party games will have for the PS5 apart from faster load times.
sendit
Member
Agreed. When it needs to play Tetris, it has to drop down to .01 Teraflops. Sony you god damn liar!
Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
Power won't matter much it always comes down to the software
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
It is Microsoft that has shown more software for XSX - Halo Infinite, Flight Simulator, Hellblade II, Project Mara and Everwild versus Sony and PS5.
geordiemp
Member
Well your both right funnily enough, some will run better and Ps5 and some better on Xbox SX, and only ones who will notice anyway are people analysing still frames zoomed in on far off blades of grass or shadows.
Psykodad
Banned
They're also focused on 4k/120fps GamePass filler.
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JareBear: Remastered
Banned
Man....how many threads do we need for just referencing the same tweets and anonymous quotes. Other than the article in the OP I don’t think anything has been posted that hasn’t been posted 1,000,000x over the last 2 weeks from the same dozen people or so.
Hopefully gameplay footage from both consoles drops soon so we have some actual meat to devour.
Hopefully gameplay footage from both consoles drops soon so we have some actual meat to devour.
icerock
Member
Never thought a Coreteks video would tilt two video-game forum this bad, his videos are always well researched. But, he extrapolates a lot of stuff, straight out of his ass many times. This video being no exception.
I'm yet to see a single post from Dictator, where he dives into if there are any positives at all with PS5 design. Nothing on that front, it's a pool of constant negativity. No wonder Xbox fans are putting him on a pedestal, hilarious stuff.
I'm yet to see a single post from Dictator, where he dives into if there are any positives at all with PS5 design. Nothing on that front, it's a pool of constant negativity. No wonder Xbox fans are putting him on a pedestal, hilarious stuff.
Batiman
Banned
No every game should technically run better on XSX.
Heres how i see it
Generally speaking:
Multiplats will look largely equal/slightly better on XSX.
The best Looking games will be PS5 exclusives. (Also the SSD is so fast, it will affect Game/Level Design which affects Gameplay. Thats what really matters imo.)
Overly Simplistic Summary:
XSX is about brute force
PS5 is more about efficiency
Generally speaking:
Multiplats will look largely equal/slightly better on XSX.
The best Looking games will be PS5 exclusives. (Also the SSD is so fast, it will affect Game/Level Design which affects Gameplay. Thats what really matters imo.)
Overly Simplistic Summary:
XSX is about brute force
PS5 is more about efficiency
Jon Neu
Banned
A question that nobody here literally knows.
Batiman
Banned
It matters to some degree. I used to buy multi platform titles on PS4. Now I buy them all for X1X. If you play mostly multi platform games the series x is the obvious choice. The ps5 will be an exclusive machine for me along with the switch.
Entroyp
Member
I’ve always loved DF as a source of cool technical information. I don’t remember their staff engaging in this kind of behavior around the PS4/XbO release, which is why I’m more surprised. I was not paying attention during the mid gen console releases though.
That being said, I like the work they did on the XsX and PS5 reveals, sensible chuckles and all.
geordiemp
Member
I dont think so, not every game runs better on Pro vs XSX with > 40 % TF difference in XSX favour so your talking rubbish. Evidence A :
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JareBear: Remastered
Banned
This seems like such ridiculous spin. More efficient? What are you talking about, exactly? Feels like a denial twist of “it’s the weaker console.”
It’s the weaker console, period.
What is efficient about overclocking the shit out of a small amount of CUs?
Will Sony exclusives look better? Maybe, probably, but we’ll see. Maybe not. Will Sony exclusives take better advantage of the SSD bandwidth than other games? I hope so. The XsX SSD is fast enough to get creative with as well. Frankly, first party games better show off SSD magic, considering how much hype has been out tho this SSD Messiah, or else it will be embarrassing.
As for multi-plats, the question is would PS5 people rather take a FPS hit or a resolution hit (to make up for the 15-20 percent difference in power)?
I would prefer 1800p/60 over 4k/30 or 4k/45ish uncapped
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Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
Is this the new Sony template ? If you are referring to that 90 hour AAA thread, thats not what he said. Ninja Theory and Obsidian have other smaller projects between big AAA projects(he literally said that). Not all devs(like Rare) are AAA. He dint even use the term Game Pass during the part quoted in OP.
Also, they never said 4k 120 fps. They said 4K 60 fps with 120 fps support.
SleepDoctor
Banned
I never seen this game. Looks amazing but animations seem off. Probably another Deep Down tho that we'll never see release.
As for the youtubers, i couldn't care less for any of em. They're all paid, shills, or fanboys when it doesn't fit one's narrative.
Another thing to note is Sony and their devs are all the ones doing damage control still trying to convince people of it being "better" than xsx in whatever ways they want almost two weeks later.
Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
I've said it before if I was Sony I would've shown 1st party games already but when they do have their reveal they will show the 1st party goods
So far it's PS5: Godfall (3P) and Quantum Error (3P)
EverydayBeast
thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
I praise SONY on already winning next generation.
joe_zazen
Member
I genuinely think >90% of Xbox fans here have refused to watch this video yet come in here to shit on CoreTeks for being a shill when he is nothing of the sort.
Won't listen to DF, won't listen to Cerny, won't listen to Moore's Law is Dead, won't listen to JS, won't listen to coreteks, NXgamer, won't listen to dozens of devs.
And I'm supposed to be the delusional one.
Xbox fans:
qtf.
the vid is actually pretty interesting, and will help people understand how all chip makers are squeezing performance now that shrinks are coming to an end. This is not a console channel, btw, it is a PC channel.
Radical Dreamer
Member
This thread made me realise I always liked lambdadelta way more
Batiman
Banned
Talking rubbish? Check my post again.I dont think so, not every game runs better on Pro vs XSX with > 40 % TF difference in XSX favour so your talking rubbish. Evidence A :
I said “should”, which is correct.
joe_zazen
Member
This such ridiculous spin. More efficient? What are you talking about? This is just a denial twist of “it’s the weaker console.”
It’s the weaker console, period.
What is efficient about overclocking the shit out of a small amount of CUs?
Will Sony exclusives look better? Maybe, probably, but we’ll see. Maybe not. Will Sony exclusives take better advantage of the SSD bandwidth than other games? I hope so. The XsX SSD is fast enough to get creative with as well.
As for multi-plats, the question is would PS5 people rather take a FPS hit or a resolution hit (to make up for the 15-20 percent difference in power)?
I would prefer 1800p/60 over 4k/30 or 4k/45ish uncapped
why so certain, you a EEing hardware designer?
I am glad the consoles are different and the end results are in doubt. But then again, i am not try to spin a narrative or work as an unpaid salesman for a trillion dollar corporation.
Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
I only had Xbox One in 2013 and power didn't matter then and it doesn't matter now for me. And next generation multiplats will look the closest they've ever been
geordiemp
Member
No, its too early to call, depends on how each console has removed bottlenecks in the pipeline and not just muh terrafloppies.
We dont even know exactly whats inside the ps5 APU yet,
Batiman
Banned
I’m not to big on power myself, but will easily pick the more powerful console for multiplats. Both will produce amazing looking games and that will be the XSX this gen whether the the difference is minimal or not. We will have to wait until comparisons. I still refuse to play any shooters with a DS4 though. Even if a game miraculously happens to run better on ps5, I’d choose the Xbox version if it’s a shooter. Can not play shooters with DS sticks for the life of me. Hope they make some changes with them this time.
Batiman
Banned
No I don’t agree
geordiemp
Member
I think open world games will stream allot of textures next gen, also third party, and its open for debate and I remain open minded. Activision comment below. on Ps5 Geometry engine early in pipeline (which also has VRS). and streaming assests comment on his work.....
Dont be so sure ....muh terraflops....
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No desire for a debate.
This such ridiculous spin. More efficient? What are you talking about? This is just a denial twist of “it’s the weaker console.”
It’s the weaker console, period.
What is efficient about overclocking the shit out of a small amount of CUs?
Will Sony exclusives look better? Maybe, probably, but we’ll see. Maybe not. Will Sony exclusives take better advantage of the SSD bandwidth than other games? I hope so. The XsX SSD is fast enough to get creative with as well.
As for multi-plats, the question is would PS5 people rather take a FPS hit or a resolution hit (to make up for the 15-20 percent difference in power)?
I would prefer 1800p/60 over 4k/30 or 4k/45ish uncapped
I mean more efficient use of ram (more available/less needed for the OS) and much faster streaming in assets. I dont take the "Tflops is what matters and nothing else" position because its factually not true.
If you think theres going to be a massive difference in Multiplats your going to be disappointed.
It will be exclusives that show what each console can do.
XSX games will look fantastic
PS5 games will look fantastic but the key with me is Sony is attempting to change how developers approach game design (probably only 1st and 2nd party can take advantage of it)
Im just saying the trend will continue from this generation. Even though Xbox one X is the most powerful console the best looking games are PlayStation Exclusives.
Both will be native 4k
Psykodad
Banned
No shit, yet we have a couple of xbox fans in here acting like there is a major heating issue and Cerny is lying.
SirTerry-T
Member
It looks gorgeous but the movement of the player character looks far too floaty for a guy covered in armour, totally breaks the immersion those lovely graphics create.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
I dont think so, not every game runs better on Pro vs XSX with > 40 % TF difference in XSX favour so your talking rubbish. Evidence A :
It's already been proven these cases come down to unoptimized ports or poor use of the additional hardware. For example if the RE3 Remake demo on XSX used the same quality texture assets as PS4 Pro's the framerate would be noticeably beyond PS4 Pro's on the X.
In the end it all comes down optimization (or lack thereof) for those use-cases, same will be the case between PS5 and XSX. The only question would be if Sony are enforcing a parity clause with 3rd-parties or not. Those sort of things aren't illegal but they're grimy AF. And it's happened before, either with Sony or Microsoft or both.
More efficient how? XSX will always guarantee 560 GB/s bandwidth for the GPU. Meanwhile, PS5 is probably looking at most at 10 - 11 GB of physical memory on PS5 for the GPU assets if you pare its memory partitions equivalent to XSX's setup and taking a memory management/allocation approach MS is doing on an assumptive use-case with Sony (who may not be using a setup like MS's where non-graphics critical code is put to the "lower" 1 GB bound of 2 GB modules, i.e they could be using whole 2 GB modules for OS and CPU data, which actually further restricts the GPU's memory bandwidth in that case).
The SSD in both systems is being overhyped: they will bring much faster load times and help with texture streaming, but that only applies for static texture data ONLY, and only for things that don't need bit or byte-level modifies (especially if that means constant writes to the SSD memory-mapped v-cache partition). The use of the SSD for significantly changing game design approaches will be pretty limited compared to GPGPU compute, which XSX has an advantage in due to 16 additional CUs and (possibly) more GPU cache (if its clocks are slower).
And it's foolish to think trends from one gen will automatically carry over to the next. To date the most impressive next-gen footage I've seen from either system are Hellblade 2 and especially Project MARA, both of which are XSX titles. MARA in particular because of the RT and that, given its scope, it'll probably look about as good (if not as good or even better) as that in the finished product. As well, if stories like Jason's Naughty Dog article are anything to go by, combined with several key WWS employees going to MS studios, there may be workplace cultures at WWS that could impact game output quality going forward if they aren't addressed. I'm actually pretty surprised at the number of people Sony decided not to retain in terms of talent in their WWS divisions. A bit unexpected on that note.
Also before anyone brings up the idea of the OS compressing and consolidating itself to the SSD to free of RAM space, just keep in mind this is something both systems can do and is still limited by the fact the vast majority of OS code will not be able to run off the SSD anyway due to the speeds being too slow and NAND functioning on a page/block level for reads and writes, respectively (as well as lacking true random access), all are things OSes need in real runtime environments.
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SleepDoctor
Banned
Yup he was. And put me on ignore for calling him out on it like most the other guys. But the report button does wonders. You should start using it, maybe they clean out some of the shitposting.
sendit
Member
Youre telling me the XboneX couldn’t brute force 40% of a power difference over the PS4Pro?
Batiman
Banned
I really don’t report shit. It’s not my style. But when shitposting so blatant as his, it makes me wonder how he’s still around.
Chun Swae
Banned
There's a tiny 2 tf difference between the systems... The games you're going to see on Series X will be MAYBE higher resolution version of PS5 games, but with checkerboard rendering most people will not be able to see a difference. You're not getting radically different versions of games next gen on the xbox, if anything variations will come with PS5's 123% difference in I/O.
SleepDoctor
Banned
I was the same but thats the issue. When I joined and entertained the bait they'd report me and mind you I don't use personal attacks or anything like that.
Thats the thing here they bait you only to report you and you end up banned not them.
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