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[Radical_3d]

You're leaving out one important thing and that's Sampler Feedback Streaming hardware. Even if the XSX is only able to push 4.8GB/s I/O bandwidth, it can have a multiplier effect(2-3x) of between 9.6GB/s to 14.4GB/s by using SFS. That's actually the XVA's killer feature, not even BCPack. So it can stream the equivalent of what an SSD of 9.6GB/s streams(i.e the PS5) or even higher. I'm sure and hope Sony has employed some techniques for efficient texture streaming that could improve this but I highly doubt it will reach the level of XSX due to the custom hardware.

The SX is able to put 2,4GB/s. 4,8GB/s is the figure after applying compression techniques like the ones you’ve mentioned. Those are MS numbers. If you think that a company that has Greenberg employee as PR would waste the chance of promotion a bigger number you are fooling just yourself.

 

[BGs]

Some people seems to believe that the SX version of the demo would look like this:

And that’s just ridiculous. I’ve been advocating about how important the IO in PS5 is but that doesn’t mean that the SX doesn’t have a good one too. There are diminishing returns to what the eye can perceive, specially at high speed. If an asset doesn’t have 6 billion polys but 2 none of you are going to notice that until DF makes a video, pauses the action and do a 800x zoom.

Undoubtedly not, XSX will not look like Zelda. It is impossible that nothing can overcome Zelda. Never. NEVER.

Speaking seriously. What is really important is that from now on, thanks to the fact that the graphic quality has reached very high levels, less time will be devoted to asset development and more time to developing good stories.

The user wins and the worker also.

 

[TLZ]

Microsoft you fucking idiots, if you think you can do better with Unreal Engine 5, then show it, instead of this horseshit right here:

You mean you don't want to fight angry bouqets?

 

[Radical_3d]

Undoubtedly not, XSX will not look like Zelda. It is impossible that nothing can overcome Zelda. Never. NEVER.

Speaking seriously. What is really important is that from now on, thanks to the fact that the graphic quality has reached very high levels, less time will be devoted to asset development and more time to developing good stories.

The user wins and the worker also.

Ocarina of Time is one of the reasons why I left Nintendo systems behind me. What a hot pile of trash.
I was discussing this with a dev and we both agree that this will be a tragedy in terms of jobs lost. The enterprise will win, not the employee.

 

[Agnostic2020]

The SX is able to put 2,4GB/s. 4,8GB/s is the figure after applying compression techniques like the ones you’ve mentioned. Those are MS numbers. If you think that a company that has Greenberg employee as PR would waste the chance of promotion a bigger number you are fooling just yourself.

He is just console warriorring and we know it . Ms wouldnt drop the chance to say it can hit 14 gb/s with sfs if they were not scared of legal precautions .

 

[ZeroFool]

Wow, what a vivid imagination. Fan noise going into the capture card signal.

If it blows on your face during flying sections then even better!

/playful sarcasm

 

[ArcaneNLSC]

The first non-Arabic forum I engaged with was patrol4x4.com which is mostly Australian, I'm there since 2010 haha! All Nissan Patrols from all over the world were there, before it suddenly paled. Most of those naughty offroaders I knew are from Queensland, even sent some GCC-spec stuff from here

So I feel kinda visited Australia but sadly never did so far. Would be more than happy to be your free tour guide, same to all here even xbox fans

I'm a Queenslander

 

[BGs]

Ocarina of Time is one of the reasons why I left Nintendo systems behind me. What a hot pile of trash.
I was discussing this with a dev and we both agree that this will be a tragedy in terms of jobs lost. The enterprise will win, not the employee.

I do not agree. And I am an employee (not an employer). There is a lot of "tension" when preparing models for a scene. And many hours of work. All that pressure and time can be used to generate other elements necessary for the video game. It is true that perhaps many traditional people may need to learn other programs or other modeling techniques. But the reality is that in this industry you will never have a job if you do not have a certain degree of self-taught interest. In other words, you must constantly be recycling yourself and adapting to the annual news. That has not changed and will continue to be so. But for me this announcement is a relief. No one is forcing you to use any program or technique. What they are saying is that you will not have to worry so much about some parts of the creation process that were previously indispensable. For example, today I can be doing textures and tomorrow geometry, and the day after tomorrow animation. And then PostFX. Now what will happen is that in the geometry section it will take 5 times less to complete the work. If this is a problem? I don't know why it should be.

Perhaps because there can be companies where a worker is dedicated only to making screws? Like Pixar for example. It's possible. But I am sure that if one day Pixar creates a tool to make screws automatically I am sure that the worker who made screws will not be fired. It would be smarter to put it to do something else, such as nuts. It is better to stay with a well-known worker who you do not have to teach him how the company works. The fact that in a company there is a person who is only dedicated to making lightmaps does not mean that that person cannot make photogrammetry.

 

[Radical_3d]

I do not agree. And I am an employee (not an employer). There is a lot of "tension" when preparing models for a scene. And many hours of work. All that pressure and time can be used to generate other elements necessary for the video game. It is true that perhaps many traditional people may need to learn other programs or other modeling techniques. But the reality is that in this industry you will never have a job if you do not have a certain degree of self-taught interest. In other words, you must constantly be recycling yourself and adapting to the annual news. That has not changed and will continue to be so. But for me this announcement is a relief. No one is forcing you to use any program or technique. What they are saying is that you will not have to worry so much about some parts of the creation process that were previously indispensable. For example, today I can be doing textures and tomorrow geometry, and the day after tomorrow animation. And then PostFX. Now what will happen is that in the geometry section it will take 5 times less to complete the work. If this is a problem? I don't know why it should be.

Perhaps because there can be companies where a worker is dedicated only to making screws? Like Pixar for example. It's possible. But I am sure that if one day Pixar creates a tool to make screws automatically I am sure that the worker who made screws will not be fired. It would be smarter to put it to do something else, such as nuts. It is better to stay with a well-known worker who you do not have to teach him how the company works. The fact that in a company there is a person who is only dedicated to making lightmaps does not mean that that person cannot make photogrammetry.

This might be right in a developed country but being Spaniard I’m less optimistic about companies keeping jobs.

 

[TLZ]

Well then you don't even need a tour guide around here

I still need to know where I'm going!

Not that jinn place though thanks.

 

[BadBreathOfTheWild]

Just to add, Sweeny describing Sony putting their flash memory “close” to working memory, or to the CPU or GPU or whatever is referencing latency, not bandwidth.
“Distance” in this metric is how many ticks of a CPU/GPU it takes before it has what it asked for in its cache.

It’s not PS5’s 5.5GB/s that puts its flash storage “close” (although it plays a part) it’s the elimination of bottlenecks. It’s the DMAC eliminating check-in (initially copying to RAM, then copying from and back to RAM again), it’s a coprocessor mapping and remapping the memory for what the SSD is delivering, it’s a coherency engine keeping RAM and GPU caches “coherent” and in sync without needing to stall the GPU for a cycle to completely flush the cache as new data streams into RAM, it’s traditional IO tasks like file lookup being replaced by a hardware accelerator and new access API.
It’s asking for an asset and having it ready to work on during the same frame without needing to fall back or rely on prediction.

It’s all well and good having a lot of GPU compute, but if they have to stop what they’re doing for a clock cycle every time new data streams into RAM and potentially invalidates their working cache that would need to be rebuilt, then they’re idling.
Being able to selectively invalidate a GPU’s cache means it is pretty much always working during heavy streaming moments.

This is part of what Sweeny means by flash being “close”. Distance in this context means latency and time costs, not just simply comparing sequential read speed between NAND and APU.

5.5-9-22GB/s from NAND to APU is comparatively useless on traditional architecture whereby that 5.5-9-22GB/s potential would be constantly stopping and starting and waiting while it’s handled without hardware acceleration and removal of bottlenecks, or if it kept causing the GPU to essentially miss clock cycles of work while being updated, effectively downclocking it in real terms.

PS5 being described as having god-tier IO is more than just a NAND and flash controllers peak sequential read speed. That’s just the start of the chain. The thickest part of the pipeline. Comparing raw sequential read isn’t even half the story in how PS5 IO differs from PC, or even XSX.

 

[thurnishaleygw]

Majlis Al Jinn, Oman. It means Demon/Jinn Council Not my photo (there is a man standing under the sun ray)

Spoiler: tawi atair sinkhole with my french friends

A 4K video still from my drone

A photo from slightly far away

That's lovely, would love to visit it one day.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

PS5 being described as having god-tier IO is more than just a NAND and flash controllers peak sequential read speed. That’s just the start of the chain. The thickest part of the pipeline. Comparing raw sequential read isn’t even half the story in how PS5 IO differs from PC, or even XSX.

Good post. It is understandable most see the fast SSD speed which gives them the 'seeing the dinosaur's in Jurassic Park' or '$1000' moment but for most they can't see the wood for the trees that is the huge boost with I/O.

That is the real secret sauce.

 

[thurnishaleygw]

Oof

I swear, every time Aaron tweets something, this is what I picture in my mind:



He's too emphatic, I can't take him seriously

 

[Agnostic2020]

Good post. It is understandable most see the fast SSD speed which gives them the 'seeing the dinosaur's in Jurassic Park' or '$1000' moment but for most they can't see the wood for the trees that is the huge boost with I/O.

That is the real secret sauce.

Exactly. These 8k textures are not using the ram due the IO complex through put and extremely low latency it has .

 

[Bonsaibäumchen]

Ssd does not render graphics. Exact same demo could be done on pc with a standard hdd. It would just need adequate ram.

True and yet think about what this would mean.
Taking into account that both next gen consoles have 16GB of Ram and open world games are going to have at least 100GB of Content.
Lets assume you have enough Ram to load in the whole game:
For a hdd to load all neccessary data you would need 100GB / 50MB = 34 Minutes of loading time.
For a ssd to load all neccessary data you would need 100GB / 500MB = 3,4 Minutes of loading time.
For a low end nvme to load all neccessary data you would need 100GB / 2400MB = 42,67 seconds of loading time.
For a high end nvme to load all neccessary data you would need 100GB / 7000MB = 14,63 seconds of loading time.

However this is only taking into consideration the filesizes. Without thinking about compressed vs. uncompressed data.
Now either you invest CPU/GPU cycles for decompression on pc or you could use the decompressed data right from disk but having to spend about double the size of your harddrive.
So yeah pc's will eventually be able to run this, however not by the time these consoles arrive.

The flying part of the demo was a cutscene, hmm.

Yeah I guessed that by looking at the demo. No way someone was actually piloting the char in realtime during that flight scene.
I just hope that only the path was fixed and nothing was precalculated. Otherwise the Demo really was over exaggerating the U5 Engines and PS5's capabilities.

 

[Thirty7ven]

So let me get this straight, you are saying that once we see this demo running on PC or XSX, it will look worse, right? This is a demo tailored 100% around the PS5, an Unreal demo, the most multi platform engine ever?

This is a partnership with Sony, just like the elemental demo. Call it whatever you like, it doesn’t mean Sony has paid them litterly, partnership can mean a lot of things. Why do you think everyone at Epic avoided talking about the XSX yesterday as if it’s Voldemort?

I guess we will have to make a mental note of this and get back to it once we see the demo running on something else in order to compare or at least see some multi platform games. running on both.

What I’m saying is the PS5 was chosen for its performance at nanite. How that translates we would have to see. “Look worse” isn’t something tangible atm.

You’ve been spending all this time passing the idea that you’re a neutral observer that likes to analyze and comment on tech and all of a sudden it becomes impossible for the PS5 to be more performant at anything?

And what the hell does “most multi platform engine ever” even mean? That performance is static and equal across all configurations? The elemental demo would by default run better on PS4 than on Xbox One, that one is absolutely obvious. How dumb would it have been to make a similar one for Xbox One, I’m sure MS would’ve loved it!

They avoided comparisons, that’s how they remain neutral. I’m sure XSX by default is more performant at some aspects.

 

[pasterpl]

Are we expecting any additional announcement this week?

 

[Agnostic2020]

Are we expecting any additional announcement this week?

Batman probably June 2 . Then sony June 4

 

[thurnishaleygw]

This might be right in a developed country but being Spaniard I’m less optimistic about companies keeping jobs.

He's actually from our beautiful country too, so yeah, he's too optimistic

 

[The Inquirer]

Hey, everybody. What's up?

Anyhow, since the PlayStation 5 was rendering the Unreal Engine 5 demo with 8K cinematic textures, which resulted in it running the demo at 1440p and at 30fps, if it were to run it with 4K textures, which are one fourth the resolution of 8K textures, would it be able to run it at 4K? If so, at what frame rate? In other words, is there a correlation between output resolution and texture resolution, such that lower resolution textures equate to higher output resolution?

 

[FeiRR]

Yeah I guessed that by looking at the demo. No way someone was actually piloting the char in realtime during that flight scene.
I just hope that only the path was fixed and nothing was precalculated. Otherwise the Demo really was over exaggerating the U5 Engines and PS5's capabilities.

I don't think you can precalculate anything like that. Either it's a video (which I'm sure Epic wouldn't dare to do) or it's realtime. I noticed that when they stop the character at the beginning, small rocks still drop down from the shaft on the left. So even the physics isn't scripted.

 

[Radical_3d]

He's actually from our beautiful country too, so yeah, he's too optimistic

“Beautiful”.

 

[cragarmi]

It's definitely realtime as it was meant to be a playable demo at GDC, running on the PS5 devkit. I feel this was as a good way of showing what the system is capable of whilst not over shadowing their big hitters for the rest of the year. Can't wait for today's GOT demo, and then tomorrow?

 

[thurnishaleygw]

“Beautiful”.

 

[sircaw]

Microsoft you fucking idiots, if you think you can do better with Unreal Engine 5, then show it, instead of this horseshit right here:

It might not look like unreal 5 footage but i think it still looks excellent. There is alot of time, love and sweat that has gone into this and to dismiss it as horseshit is not right.

There is more to games than just looks........... alot more.

 

[PaintTinJr]

So let me get this straight, you are saying that once we see this demo running on PC or XSX, it will look worse, right? This is a demo tailored 100% around the PS5, an Unreal demo, the most multi platform engine ever?

This is a partnership with Sony, just like the elemental demo. Call it whatever you like, it doesn’t mean Sony has paid them litterly, partnership can mean a lot of things. Why do you think everyone at Epic avoided talking about the XSX yesterday as if it’s Voldemort?

I guess we will have to make a mental note of this and get back to it once we see the demo running on something else in order to compare or at least see some multi platform games. running on both.

What PC? How much? how much power draw? How much cooling and form factor? Is that a PC you can buy before the PS5 is on general sale?

No one would ever claim that a PC couldn't run the demo in the future, or in the present - if you completely ignore that PC and £5000 workstation are not the same thing. No one with a PC at the cost of the GTX 670 setup that was used last-gen will be running that demo. For that type of PC to run the demo you are going to need new SSD controller cards on the PCIe bus, with similarly fast PS5 SSD setups - back like the old days of 8080 PCs, and you are still going to need a GPU with enough ROPs and polygon pushing power to achieve that. The 1 billion front facing polygons per frame at 1440p30 is going to tax zbuffering greatly, and that is directly related to the PS5 highclock-rate. The scenes are averaging about 3.5 pixels per polygon area, and that isn't going to suit wide and slow as nicely - because the jobs are too small and brief (IMHO).

 

[bitbydeath]

Hey, everybody. What's up?

Anyhow, since the PlayStation 5 was rendering the Unreal Engine 5 demo with 8K cinematic textures, which resulted in it running the demo at 1440p and at 30fps, if it were to run it with 4K textures, which are one fourth the resolution of 8K textures, would it be able to run it at 4K? If so, at what frame rate? In other words, is there a correlation between output resolution and texture resolution, such that lower resolution textures equate to higher output resolution?

I could be wrong but from my understanding the streaming of 8K textures has very little to do with the GPU and is instead being carried out largely by the IO throughput.

 

[Radical_3d]

Have you guys seen this beautiful mock up?

 

[Brudda26]

I could be wrong but from my understanding the streaming of 8K textures has very little to do with the GPU and is instead being carried out largely by the IO throughput.

The GPU still has to render though

 

[marvifrom]

Its fake but a man can dream

 

[MasterCornholio]

Are you assuming that it was a trick to hide loading?

Maybe or they wanted to have a really good close up of the textures while the character is moving.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Besides, you're talking about compressed assets and in this demo they clearly said these were direct imports. Not compressed textures.

I must have missed that.

I thought with the quality of the assets they had to use compressed textures but it's cool to know that they only used the RAW speed of the PS5s SSD. This to me indicates that many developers won't even have to worry about compression which is a good thing.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Its fake but a man can dream

It's a transformer

 

[LED Guy?]

The Unreal 5 demo looks better than any GDC tech demo we've seen from last year, yes looks better than Nvidia's RT demos, looks better than Unity's "Heretic" demo, and looks better than that UE4 photogrammetary demo.

This tech demo right here will usher in new experiences and CGI-like visuals and assets with 8K textures.

Of course, Sony's unmatched level of polish and their engines will easily exceed that demo, Horizon 2 will DESTROY every other game you guys will see in the next 2 years LOLOLOL!!

 

[Radical_3d]

The Unreal 5 demo looks better than any GDC tech demo we've seen from last year, yes looks better than Nvidia's RT demos, looks better than Unity's "Heretic" demo, and looks better than that UE4 photogrammetary demo.

Go tell that to the neighborhood thread of the reveal. It's not defined enough, not impressive, "only 30 fps and no RT" and has load times. I don't know in what universe I enter on when I click on that thread.

 

[TheAmazingSpiderMan]

You're leaving out one important thing and that's Sampler Feedback Streaming hardware. Even if the XSX is only able to push 4.8GB/s I/O bandwidth, it can have a multiplier effect(2-3x) of between 9.6GB/s to 14.4GB/s by using SFS. That's actually the XVA's killer feature, not even BCPack. So it can stream the equivalent of what an SSD of 9.6GB/s streams(i.e the PS5) or even higher. I'm sure and hope Sony has employed some techniques for efficient texture streaming that could improve this but I highly doubt it will reach the level of XSX due to the custom hardware.

Absolute grade A level FUD right here!

Bravo! Bravo!

 

[LED Guy?]

Go tell that to the neighborhood thread of the reveal. It's not defined enough, not impressive, "only 30 fps and no RT" and has load times. I don't know in what universe I enter on when I click on that thread.

Yeah they really are delusional, because that Unity Heretic demo didn't have any RT while also looking way ahead of any "RTX" Nvidia demo.

Also who said the PS5 can't do RT? If you ran those Nvidia on it, it will run them fine, the Unreal 5 demo was focusing on pushing polygons and textures that I'm sure puts any Nvidia RTX tech demo to shame! It's not even comparable.

 

[Dr Strange]

I'm getting ready for random Friday ahead. Gonna be good!
What about you?

 

[amstradcpc]

True and yet think about what this would mean.
Taking into account that both next gen consoles have 16GB of Ram and open world games are going to have at least 100GB of Content.
Lets assume you have enough Ram to load in the whole game:
For a hdd to load all neccessary data you would need 100GB / 50MB = 34 Minutes of loading time.
For a ssd to load all neccessary data you would need 100GB / 500MB = 3,4 Minutes of loading time.
For a low end nvme to load all neccessary data you would need 100GB / 2400MB = 42,67 seconds of loading time.
For a high end nvme to load all neccessary data you would need 100GB / 7000MB = 14,63 seconds of loading time.

However this is only taking into consideration the filesizes. Without thinking about compressed vs. uncompressed data.
Now either you invest CPU/GPU cycles for decompression on pc or you could use the decompressed data right from disk but having to spend about double the size of your harddrive.
So yeah pc's will eventually be able to run this, however not by the time these consoles arrive.



Yeah I guessed that by looking at the demo. No way someone was actually piloting the char in realtime during that flight scene.
I just hope that only the path was fixed and nothing was precalculated. Otherwise the Demo really was over exaggerating the U5 Engines and PS5's capabilities.

SSDs not render graphics but throws vertices to the L2 like a beast. who render those pixels is that 2,23 Ghz geometry engine. Tflops?. for light.
This is a paradigm shift where polys once again matter, like with PS2 gen. No more pixel shaders fakery flop ops needed (normal maps to fake geometry), and being these a great bandwidth consumer this is also why 448 GB/s could be enough.

 

[amstradcpc]

Yeah they really are delusional, because that Unity Heretic demo didn't have any RT while also looking way ahead of any "RTX" Nvidia demo.

Also who said the PS5 can't do RT? If you ran those Nvidia on it, it will run them fine, the Unreal 5 demo was focusing on pushing polygons and textures that I'm sure puts any Nvidia RTX tech demo to shame! It's not even comparable.

Not even with PS7 could you ray trace lighting in a per pixel polygon scene. So RT will be used this gen just for sound.

 

[Ascend]

The flying part of the demo was a cutscene, hmm.

Did we really need to be told this? How could anyone expect that part to be actual gameplay? It's still real-time though, and that counts for something. But it's easier to get that kind of fidelity while on rails, so to speak.

 

[geordiemp]

Whats funny is if you watch again the Cerny presentation 2 things stand out

1. Narrow and fast for quicker processing of small triangles
2. Super fast SSD for high asset streaming and reducing latency

I did not expect those things to be shown with such clarity in the UE5 demo.

So many doubted Cerny in that presentation, did not take long did it ?

 

[ArcaneNLSC]

It's a transformer

More than meets the eye with that controller

 

[amstradcpc]

Did we really need to be told this? How could anyone expect that part to be actual gameplay? It's still real-time though, and that counts for something. But it's easier to get that kind of fidelity while on rails, so to speak.

But SSDs wont improve open worlds...again and again... let them be.

 

[megreotsugua]

Another lost soul has just found the light.

I encourage terrorflops truthers to watch this part of the video. (timestamped)

 

[HawarMiran]

holy shit i am so pumped for Ghost of Sushi

 

[Imtjnotu]

Bring on the last leg of my ps4 based Cerny

 

[DrKeo]

What PC? How much? how much power draw? How much cooling and form factor? Is that a PC you can buy before the PS5 is on general sale?

No one would ever claim that a PC couldn't run the demo in the future, or in the present - if you completely ignore that PC and £5000 workstation are not the same thing. No one with a PC at the cost of the GTX 670 setup that was used last-gen will be running that demo. For that type of PC to run the demo you are going to need new SSD controller cards on the PCIe bus, with similarly fast PS5 SSD setups - back like the old days of 8080 PCs, and you are still going to need a GPU with enough ROPs and polygon pushing power to achieve that. The 1 billion front facing polygons per frame at 1440p30 is going to tax zbuffering greatly, and that is directly related to the PS5 highclock-rate. The scenes are averaging about 3.5 pixels per polygon area, and that isn't going to suit wide and slow as nicely - because the jobs are too small and brief (IMHO).

Who said any PC can run it the same way? Obviously you will need an XSX or a PC powerful enough to run it. It’s a middleware tech demo, you get 10 of these every generation and they have one purpose, to sell developers on using it on all platforms.

 

[ANIMAL1975]

Another lost soul has just found the light.

I encourage terrorflops truthers to watch this part of the video. (timestamped)