Trueblakjedi
Member
Interesting that you think that this entire thread, from multiple posters, with references, quotes, and highlights represent a lack of "any level of critical thinking or understanding".
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Xbox Velocity Architecture - 100 GB is instantly accessible by the developer through a custom hardware decompression block
- Thread starter Bernkastel
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Interesting that you think that this entire thread, from multiple posters, with references, quotes, and highlights represent a lack of "any level of critical thinking or understanding".
Trueblakjedi
Member
XVA is aspirational? Its been described in official documentation. You may mean the impact is aspirational.
But all the impactsof all of these systems are aspirational. Every number that isnt raw is based in developer effort, api capability, and HW support.
oldergamer
Member
Show me one single user in this thread that has called Cerny a liar. That is total BS! There's more people calling Phil Spencer a liar in this forum then makes sense. However, in both cases that is beyond the main point. If you think people are in this thread without any level of critical thinking, then you're ignoring other threads on this forum and display the blatant double standard that you are complaining about.
Interesting that you think that this entire thread, from multiple posters, with references, quotes, and highlights represent a lack of "any level of critical thinking or understanding".
I do too. If the references or quotes were actually useful I would side with your argument but they are not. Every logical thought is thrown out in favour of every fallacy under the sun.
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I see you calling Epics comments a lie so what’s the difference? Epic may well be lying but really why are you interpreting one 'this is made possible with.. " SFS true while SSD as a lie based on your interpretation of how you think this works which by the way is technically and provably incorrect.
oldergamer
Member
You're full of it. Show me where i called epic "liars". I didn't even imply that epic was lying, please do not put words in my mouth. What you just wrote was total nonsense. This "over defensiveness" is exactly what others here are talking about. You're digging hard to try and find what you "think" someone is saying, meanwhile they literally aren't. That is not an example of "critical thinking or understanding".
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Trueblakjedi
Member
Clearly you dont read twitter text very well.
James Stanard
@JamesStanard
Replying to
@AzureGamingHD
Sampler Feedback is one part of SFS. To make it more useful for texture streaming, we added special texture filters that handle when a texture page is not in memory yet. That's custom for XSX.
James Stanard
@JamesStanard
Replying to
@Remij010
@XcloudTimdog
and
@AzureGamingHD
"I believe only "Sampler Feedback" is a guaranteed feature of DX12 Ultimate."
Replying to
@Remij010
@XcloudTimdog
and
@AzureGamingHD
We have custom texture filters that I already mentioned. These are in hardware.
Trueblakjedi
Member
The published patents don't count.
The official published documents that state the efficiency gains don't count.
The statements made in multiple published interviews with the architects don't count.
The unofficial twitter statements made by system architects which support the articles, patents, and official statements don't count.
So there's nothing left to debate with you because nothing matters. *shrug*
What I am doing is applying the same logic people here including you are.
Epic say 'this is made possible with the PS5s SSD'
Yet on the previous page you are clearly saying PS5s SSD speed is meaningless.
MS say 'this is made possible with SFS' yet you expect everyone to just say yep must be secret sauce somewhere.
The published patents make no mention of doubling the effective bandwidth over others. They mention computing overhead. That's the point. People are not applying logic they are throwing fallacies everywhere, appeals to authority, strawmen, everything. XSX is going to be great I'm sure and XVA is the term used by MS on their method. I just don't see why we need to exaggerate what it is capable of when the answers are obvious. If you apply any logic to what's being posted you would see it provides no new information on the topic some are discussing though interesting in its own right.
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polybius80
Member
already readed them and none of that mention or even suggest SFS gives 2-3x extra cut in memory usage on top of PRT/SF
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
New day and someone wanted the topic to trend again on the front page, it fell off, and with again the same stuff about the 2-3x multiplier...
... not so shocked 
.Recycling the same talking points, the same tweets, videos, and patents where nowhere the link that specifies the baseline, used to calculate the 2-3x SSD I/O throughput and memory reduction improvements, they want to hear can be found... which is where the claim that such baseline is PRT/virtual texturing based games is on them to prove not MS as they have not stated that.
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oldergamer
Member
Bullcrap. Go see what i wrote. actually I will quote myself to show how what you wrote is totally wrong. i said...
"If you think epic had these massive meshes that takes up so much memory that they had to be compressed and decompressed because what was rendered couldn't be done elsewhere, well be my guest. Im not falling for that."
That is not the same as what you just wrote, is it? NO. I actually didn't even mention PS5 in that sentence. Epic can say made with PS5, PS6, the Atari jaguar i don't care. What they didn't say was that it couldn't be done elsewhere or on other hardware. that was the point i was making you seemingly missed.
Again so what if they say that, it doesn't mean it couldn't be duplicated elsewhere. again, you are making an inference that is not there. Some Sony fans have become nearly rabid lately. Still not as bad as the time i got a bunch of nasty messages from a sony fan threatening to kill me randomly, but its getting there. You guys need to calm down.
I think you need to calm down yourself. Did I do anything even approaching sending you death threats. Jesus.
As for what you said read it yourself:
"So this is an interesting thought experiment. Especially when you look at what Epic did with unreal 5. They are rendering what is visible, but at the same time saying, this is made possible with the PS5 SSD. In all those threads where sony fanys were saying "this is an advantage over xbox", i said a few times, we don't know how much bandwidth Epic is using. So realistically, is sony's 5.5GB/s giving them an advantage over 2.4 GB/s? Especially in the case where you are rendering only what you see? I think the answer to that is no.
Right, this is an important point and goes to what i was thinking right after i had time to digest what i saw from the epic demo. They are doing all they can to save bandwidth, this kinda goes to the speed of the SSD being meaningless."
Here
Actual Hardware advantage= is actually meaningless.
Some unknown SFS advantage= its gains must not be questioned.
The double standards mentioned are on display there. If you want to interpret vague information and not question the technical aspect do so on both?
If Epic tells you "this is possible due to PS5s SSD" accept that as only possible on PS5s ssd without question.
If MS tell you "2x efficiency made possible with SFS" accept that as only possible with SFS without question.
That's what you're suggesting people do, right?
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oldergamer
Member
That post you have a problem? LOL, take a step down off your sony branded pedestal. Answer these questions.
1. How much bandwidth was the epic demo using?
2. How much bandwidth could they be using if we assume they were rendering "only what was visible"?
3. Did they come right out and say this could ONLY be accomplished on PS5 and no other hardware
if you say i don't know to the first two and "no" to the last one, then we are in agreement.
That doesn't mean any hardware is meaningless. Who said that?? You seem to think that if PS5 isn't the best, or fastest, its meaningless. I don't think that at all, and epic was pretty careful in their wording. I wonder why?
Umm, i'm not stopping anyone from interpreting vague infor or questioning technical aspects. We've questions vague information more in this thread then most around here lately. However i think the problem is when there is clear info, and some people are refusing to acknowledge it. That's frustrating people. We have multiple patents in this thread and credit is not given where due.
Again you are reading what you want to read. No I'm not a lemming, and no I won't turn something epic stated into a fanboy statement. "Saying this is possible due to the PS5 SSD" is different then saying "this is only possible on PS5". If you can't see the difference in those to statements i really don't know why you bother replying.
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I think you might live in an alternate universe. Go take a look through the recent pages of the 'next gen speculation' thread. Quite a lot of posters considered to be 'pro Xbox' have been weeded out of that thread and the result is like a teenage girls forum for a Kpop band, all dewy-eyed adoration and breathless squealing.
The fact that the Series X is actually the most powerful console is a distant memory there, you'll love it.
You've spent time in that thread, maybe that's what you consider to be balanced? Maybe you'd like all threads to be like that? Even the specifically Xbox themed ones?
rnlval
Member
NVMe is still PCIe protocol. LOLI'm NOT saying that the following is what XVA is.
I am saying that there are designs that will allow MS to do what they predict and not be restricted in the way you see to be predicting.
That's the exact point isn't it? You're not getting it. Did MS say this can ONLY be done with SFS on XSX. Yet when someone says this isn't something unique people are going crazy and saying it shouldn't be questioned. Nobody called MS a liar. This post started this bullshit
Then somebody replied with
Then you were quick to jump the gun to the defense of what calling this post total bullshit ?
The defence of MS, who even bloody mentioned Phil for crying out loud to be jumping to his defence like that. Show some critical thinking yourself.
Nobody even called MS a liar just its fans misinterpreting a claim made by them and pointing to patents that don't show anything related because they lack any understanding as to what they are discussing.
Get off your MS pedastal I'm not on a Sony one. You did actually lie though about not saying ssd speed is meaningless can you at the very least admit that you actually did say it now? I don't know why I bother replying either but get lost trying to call me a sony fanboy instead of actually responding with anything thoughtful.
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oldergamer
Member
What the hell are you talking about with any company being called a "liar"? You realize these are companies and not people right? Your argument is all over the place and makes no sense. I'm not saying anything should not be questioned, but detailed information should not be ignored. There's nothing wrong with speculation. You're trying to claim something here, that I have no idea based on your flipping back and forth, what that is! you don't have a point in your reply to me.
It was bullshit, and still bullshit.
Prove the claim ( whichever one you are talking about ) was misinterpreted.
I never said anything was "meaningless" that again is pure bullshit fanboy talk. let's see here...
1. You've tried to put words in my mouth that i didn't say,
2. you've claimed to I've called epic liars
3. You've claimed that i'm saying something negative about your precious PS5 and saying "meaningless"
4. You're you've called me a liar
you wonder why i called you a fanboy? Again, just because I don't think the epic demo could "only" run on PS5, doesn't mean anything in the PS5 is meaningless. That is simply you thinking if PS5 isn't the best, or fastest, its meaningless. It doesn't mean I'm calling Sony or EPIC "liars". Again its just a flipping plastic box under your TV. Get over it.
And there you go with the strawman again. What the fuck has anything I've said got to do with
Honestly what kind of messed up logic is that?
Here is the thing in case you missed it.
MS: xbox one games have 2/3 of textures unused or inactive.
MS states that you can get a 2-3x bandwidth saving with SFS.
ASSUMED MS FANS: this can only be done on XSX until we know it can't because we have no info. Here's a patent and unrelated information and tweets.
ASSUMED SONY FANS: but this isn't made possible with the extra custom filters in XSX. It's made possible because we have to store less in memory compared to last gen because we can stream faster now.
Then somebody says:
Then
Then you
And here we are. Stupid argument if you ask me. Especially as you are doing EXACTLY the same thing that the assumed sony fans are doing.
Epic shows a demo and says "this is made possible with the PS5 SSD". You go to great lengths trying to show that the PS5 SSD speed is meaningless there and it can be done on others.
Should I assume that you think what is claimed is false because you applied some critical thinking (albeit provably incorrect) ? Do you think that's fair? Should I argue endlessly with you about how the PS5 SSD is twice as fast with spec sheets of DRAM and you are simply denying it because it's Sony?
Try to think about that one.
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oldergamer
Member
This IS a stupid argument! You're argument makes no sense. If nobody called anyone a liar, your argument totally falls apart! look at how it crumbles!
Again, show me one single user in this thread that has called Cerny a liar. That is total BS! There's more people calling Phil Spencer a liar in this forum then makes sense. However, in both cases that is beyond the main point. If you think people are in this thread without any level of critical thinking, then you're ignoring other threads on this forum and display the blatant double standard that you are complaining about
NOBODY CALLED CERNY A LIAR.
AGAIN you think the PS5 SSD speed is meaning less unless its the fastest. That's the gist of what you are saying here. Anyone claiming the gap in performance might not be as big as some ( like yourself think) isn't the same as you thinking people are calling Cerny a liar or you thinking people are calling epic liars, or calling PS5 hardware performance "meaningless". You draw an awful lot from thin air!
I didn't say it was false, and critical thinking would likely dictate that since we don't don't have answers to certain questions about the demo, and based on the wording from Epic while they have stated that the demo also runs great on other hardware with regular SSD's or NVME drives, that the performance gap is likely NOT as big as you yourself, think or want it to be. I'd love to see you prove that incorrect! You can't.
Did Epic say that the Unreal demo can ONLY be done on the PS5?
You're assuming that only the PS5 SSD can achieve what's been demonstrated so far (particularly in the Unreal 5 demo) even overcoming the power advantage that the Series X has and then, seemingly, dedicated your life to insisting that no Series X tech can help close the gap in raw SSD speed. You've posted a ton in this thread to do the very thing that you seem upset about.
Apparently Sony innovations are exclusive and untouchable but MS innovations are equally available to both machines.
Not sure what's hard to get about my argument.
Epic claim "this is made possible with PS5 SSD".
You are clearly saying that the PS5 SSD speed is meaningless to the UE5 demo by trying to apply some critical thinking.
MS claim 2-3x bandwidth saving which is made possible with MS SFS streaming. People are saying that the extra hardware feature on SFS with XSX is meaningless to the 2-3x claim.
The second group of people were accused of saying any claims made by MS is false only because it's MS and there is a double standard. What's another word for a false claim?
Somebody said that this applies to both sides and said some actual critical thinking would go a long way.
You come in arguing against the second person saying that this doesn't happen and it's fucking Phil getting the grant of the false claims accusation while doing exactly the same thing which started the argument. Phil wasn't even mentioned once in the thread so it's obvious why you're so riled up about the second poster.
So why did you not apply this to the original person? The fact that nobody called MS a liar and that people are free to apply some critical thinking as to what MS are claiming. Why did you instead jump on the second person who was asking for some critical thinking?
Surely if you can understand and apply some logic to what is claimed without being called a liar or of double standards on one side you can do the same on the other? I already told you I am applying the same logic some people in the thread are applying on others to you. I know you didn't actually call them a liar.
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Did MS claim the bandwidth memory saving can only be done on the xbox series x? Yet anyone who claims that most of the savings can be done on existing hardware let alone next gen, some people here do what? Claim it's some patented secret sauce only on XSX saving in efficiency to overcome some other consoles advantage.
I made no claims whatsoever but i know you love your strawmen.
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oldergamer
Member
Again your argument is stupid and predicated on ANYONE saying something that YOU perceive points to CERNY or EPIC or anyone "lying". That is pure fanboy shit. NOBODY CLAIMED ANYONE IS LYING which is provable. So yes I came in and said there are MORE people calling Spencer a liar then are calling CERNY. Whis is provably true in this forum. If you can't stop trying to find meaning when its not there, then you simply are incapable of understanding how WRONG you are.
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Ascend
Member
Let me just throw something out there....
If you need to go from point A to point B in less than X amount of time, that you achieved it in a Lamborghini does not mean that you cannot do the same in a Toyota. That does not mean that the Lamborghini is meaningless either, because, a bicycle could not do it. But you can't pretend that the Toyota is a bicycle, just because the Lamborghini is faster.
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The pure fanboy shit is you not questioning the original person who brought fanboy talks by accusing others of not trusting MS but trusting Sony for simply interpreting a statement with critical thinking. The pure fanboy shit is you bringing up Phil. Phil! To a discussion about tech as if to try and prove which company gets worse done by by fans. That's the pure fanboy shit.
That's fair enough nobody is calling the 2.4GB/s SSD slow. Nobody called the Toyota a bicycle.
Car analogies though, I guess we had to have them at some point
oldergamer
Member
Pure fanboy BULLSHIT. Your argument is illogical
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Night.Ninja
Banned
Yeah though if you didn't deny the patents and interview statements from architects etc.. for XSX you'd realize the Toyota in this case is a Toyota GR Super Sport(986HP , 735 kilowatts, hypercar)The pure fanboy shit is you not questioning the original person who brought fanboy talks by accusing others of not trusting MS but trusting Sony for simply interpreting a statement with critical thinking. The pure fanboy shit is you bringing up Phil. Phil! To a discussion about tech as if to try and prove which company gets worse done by by fans. That's the pure fanboy shit.
That's fair enough nobody is calling the 2.4GB/s SSD slow. Nobody called the Toyota a bicycle.
Car analogies though, I guess we had to have them at some point
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Is that raw specs you're mentioning well I have a patent for a carbon fibre seat and wing mirrors that would make my 690HP lamborghini into 1380HP?Yeah though if you didn't deny the patents and interview statements from architects etc.. for XSX you'd realize the Toyota in this case is a Toyota GR Super Sport(986HP , 735 kilowatts, hypercar)
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
Trueblakjedi
Member
Yes sir. But notice how the NVME is independent of the 1TB storage. Im sure the implementation now could be more advanced than the 2016 implementation outlined here.
BlueHawk357
Member
I'm sorry to burst your hopes OP, but there will be a rather large difference in speed between the PS5 and Series. Series games will take around 4-5 seconds to load, PS5 games will take 1-2 seconds.
The SSDs this generation, however do have more benefits than just loading games, but I won't get into that in this thread.
The SSDs this generation, however do have more benefits than just loading games, but I won't get into that in this thread.
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Trueblakjedi
Member
I think you may be arguing across each other so let me clarify.
Looking at the tech:
1. MS says that because games only use 1/3 of the textures available - They can achieve a 2-3X bandwidth improvement. Reducing whats transported by improved and timely texture selection and compress it by 50%. That's a mathematically sound way of looking at the improvement gains. This improvement is an average not an outlier.
2. MS fans never said that it wasn't possible with any other technology. They did say that the SFS implementation is unique to XSX (because it is).
3. Sony Fans are saying that the SFS isn't unique and is plain old PRT (which it isn't). They are also arguing that the impact of the additional HW specific for this purpose certainly doesn't contribute to the purported gains and that the purported gains are either false or misleading because the improvements aren't benchmarked against current implementations of PRT.
So the question to be answered is does SFS and compression improve the quality and speed of timely texture selection at 2-3 times vs not using PRT at all? Or is it an improvement vs current PRT implementations?
Have I correctly outlined the multiple pages of arguments here?
I have an response to those questions but just wanted to make sure we have whittled the controversy down to its essence.
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jimbojim
Banned
So, does he have a PS5 devkit or he just bullshiting like Louise Kirby?
phil_t98
#SonyToo
where have Epic claimed this can only be done on the PS5? Has something new been said?
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
"Somebody", huh? Yeah I said that, and I stand by it. Here's why.
There's nothing wrong with healthy discernment, or constructive critique on certain claims. But if you actually look at the meta across the forum, you will see a certain hostility directed towards, say, Spencer or other members of the Xbox team, that is not directed towards Mark Cerny. I don't have the time to pull up examples but if you frequent the boards regularly enough you will have seen what I refer to here.
And if you think by some chance that doesn't play into a noticeable trend where a majority of posters take Sony/Cerny technical claims at face value and speculate on how those are being achieved (as in having the fundamental belief that they ARE being accomplished as stated), but are rather dismissive of MS technical claims at face value and speculate mainly in ways to try disproving what they claim as being true or possible, then you might need to take the head out of the proverbial sand.
It's that general flow of discourse and the tone that comes with it I meant when I said the quote, and I've had enough time across multiple threads with multiple users to notice that. There's nothing wrong in stating a fact, and if the only attempt to assume I'm wrong on this is to ask me to pull up literal examples, there's zero chance I'm searching through upwards thousands of posts for literal days to put up those kind of quotes for something of this type of discussion. I simply got better things to do with my time than that.
Simple as this: if the person who on average is discussing technical features regarding XSX, they find themselves usually on the defensive with the majority of their claims or interpretations. I don't mean "defensive" as in rather typical constructive questioning or discussion, which is normal. No, I mean "defensive" as in they will generally have to deal with a group of rather focused posters who will continuously shoot down claims, move goalposts, dismiss evidence provided, draw up random conjecture, try completely shifting the topic to tangentially related branch topics (that nonetheless don't follow discussion of the thread's main topic), etc.
And it's usually done in a way to wear down through attrition, to tire the other side out of any discussion. I notice that those more willing to put those discussing MS/XSX technical-related aspects (particularly anything regarding SSD I/O) in good-faith speculative terms, generally come in one after the other after a decent bit of time, and you can clearly notice the tonal shift in the general thread discussion. This very thread is perfect evidence of it. Of importance is that these sorts that come in a bit later to shift the tone of discussion, they generally don't seem very interested in having a genuine discussion (as in willingness to cede some of their own thoughts on the topic and see if a middle ground of understanding can be met). They appear more interested in setting their own talking points as the baseline and not really willing to cede any ground of thought for any sort of compromise.
Now again, this isn't exclusive to only ardent Sony people; MS/XSX-partial folks do it too. However, since there are so many more of the former than the latter, you are simply going to see more of the former than the latter. And that's certainly what I've observed, especially of late. Granted not everyone who discusses in a more optimistic fashion regards one system or the other is suddenly a fanboy for that platform, that's not what I'm suggesting.
However you don't need to be a fanboy in order to have a strong bias or preference for a given brand, either. It's even possible to have a strong preference for both brands, but depending on the topic in question others may perceive as a fanboy for one brand without noticing you've shown similar strong preference for the other brand in other discussions, and a lot of the time actual fanboys (who make a lot of those type of accusations) will selectively tune out a person's balanced perspectives to focus on a perspective they have on a brand they don't prefer, to label said person as a fanboy of said brand. Happens all the time online, here and abroad.
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
That way every dev speaking about PS5 SSD is wrong, because as per this DICE engineer, they probably dont have dev kits
Neither we, nor Croteks have dev kits, and look how much we and they have talked on next gen specs. You would never get any opinion out of a dev who has both PS5/XSX dev kits.
This his opinion based on what is known about the PS5 SSD.
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jimbojim
Banned
That way every dev speaking about PS5 SSD is wrong, because as per this DICE engineer, they probably dont have dev kits
Neither we, nor Croteks or NX Gamer have dev kits, and look how much we and they have talked on next gen specs. You would never get any opinion out of a dev who has both PS5/XSX.
This his opinion based on what is known about the PS5 SSD.
I see, that's excuse. NXG is an tech analyst. This guy isn't. He is a dev and, as a dev, he directly compared XSX SSD to PS5 SSD just like Loiuse Kirby even though he doesn't have it. So, he just bullshiting.
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
Apparently opinion of hobbyists in youtube matter more than devs now.
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jimbojim
Banned
But apparently Xbox/PC only dev opinion matters to you more when they compare XSX to PS5. Oh well.
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
I didnt ever say any devs opinion matter more. I posted his opinion on the relevant thread.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
The funny part is I don't even think those attempting to claim UE5 demo could only be done on PS5, realize how much that's a bit of a bad sign for PS5 and next-gen in general. Now yes it was a mightily impressive demo (even accounting for a lot of actual game logic which wasn't running), but if you want to tell me that the pinnacle of next-gen fidelity with asset streaming is somewhat-quick flight and wall-running in a short sequence at 1440p and 30 FPS, and we'd have already seen it well before next-gen even launches...well that would be kinda shitty of next-gen hardware, wouldn't it?
We've never had a generation where tech demos maxed out any given part of a console architecture and we aren't gonna start that now. You don't need 5.5 GB/s for what was in the UE5 demo. You don't need 10.275 TF, either, and you probably don't need 3.5 GHz CPU tapped out to push the results there, either. This is even considering the demo not being fully optimized for the PS5 devkit.
It was just a taste of what next-gen will bring in real-world gameplay scenarios, so it should be rather simple to assume that whatever was in that demo could easily be done on the XSX with similar levels of (somewhat) optimization. The more headroom these systems have out of the gate even in terms of these tech demos, the better the promise of next-gen on both consoles and the more that benefits 3rd-parties who constitute for upwards 90% of the content these systems will see.
He's completely oblivious to the marketing angle between Epic and Sony in regards to those type of statements. If MS had the demo, Epic would've said something similar but replaced "PS5 SSD" with "Velocity Architecture".
Only a dolt would assume Epic or any major engine provider would roll out a demo to one specific platform holder AND openly say anything playing into a debate narrative that potentially looks negative on the other major platform holder they have a long history and business relationship providing engine support for.
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jimbojim
Banned
I see. So, any crap is allowed.
phil_t98
#SonyToo
you have pointed it all out so perfectly. case should be rested now
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
In case it was not obvious to you, this is thread about XSX SSD(not the PS5 SSD). So, any news regarding that will be posted here, irrespective of your bias.