FranXico
Member
PS5 was originally a 2019 console that got delayed.
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zaitsu
Banned
Also such late support for XSX makes sense because Scorn developers stated that they've just get XSX devkits.
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Bonsaibäumchen
Member
Its not just people here.
Flat Earthers, NWO, Bill Gate wants to implant Chips disguises as Covid-19 vaccination, Lizardpeople, Hollow Earth, George Soros pays Antifa, Dark Side of the Moon, Apollo and ISS are fakes, Aliens everywhere pick your poison.
Back to topics:
On costs - Remember folks a 600€ PS3 would cost about 710€ nowadays due to inflation.
A 400€ PS4 would cost about 430€ nowadays. And so on and so forth.
On next gen games - I think people are to focused on 8K textures and Superhighpoly counts. This was ans example whats possible. Probably one that hat relativly high cost on storage.
Yet there are several ways to bypass this problem. 1. Split games into episodes that can be downloaded and played standalone 2. Reduce texture size and polycount in comparison to UE5 Demo but increase asset density/npc population 3. Don't give to much of a fuck about storage capacity and let the gamers decide if they want to spent 50-90% storage on a single open world game 4.Expandable storage (offsetting costs) and probably dozens of other possibilities.
Also who said that UE5 Demo was top notch? Maybe there will be smarter ways ro use the new architecture and storage with other engines.
dimaveshkin
Member
That's a private detective type of digging. Nice catch!
pawel86ck
Banned
I have been removed temporarily for posting false and embellished statements to start console wars. I am welcome to provide hard evidence of an overclock in the review thread to get this overturned.
PS5 GPU had to be OC'ed to the extreme just to not look weak next to XSX GPU, so of course Cerny wanted to direct people attention to something else (I/O and tempest audio).
We know for a fact PS5 I/O is faster, but we still dont know if it will translate into better graphics fidelity besides tech demos.
I'm not suggesting such absurd things like secret GPU in the powerbrick. Everything I wrote are facts, because we still waiting for full XSX and PS5 architecture breakdown and both Sony and MS can still surprise people. For example do we know if PS5 will support VRS and directML AI? Do we know for a fact if MS indeed build a dedicated audio block? No. The reality is you are making definitive conclusions way too soon.
Edit - gonzalo leak proves sony was aiming at 9 TF before, but I guess people in this thread are only allowed to prise PS5. There are obviously double standards here on neogaf, because ps fans are allowed to post similar posts, and not to mention they are allowed to disrespect people like geordiemp did.
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zaitsu
Banned
Aaaaaaand we're back at OC thing. It's absurd. The whole OC thing started because on of the earliest devkits on RDNA1 had lower clocks. Guess what, later devkits were with RDNA2 and handled higher clock. It does not mean it was OC'ed for fuck sake.
geordiemp
Member
FUD and tales from your arse.
Either you have inside information unique to you and your discord idiots or you are a liar. which is it ?
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FeiRR
Banned
Great job, warrior.
zaitsu
Banned
I mean common, i have feeling that this is becoming "zaitsu speculation thread" because of how much i writing here but from my perspective only counter arguments that some people here have are :
1) PS5 being oced - like i've said before early devkits were RDNA1 with lower clocks - it has no meaning beside that PS5 devkits were first in developer hands which is nice
2) XSX bein 12 TF - yes 18% more theoretical power
3) XSX has more CU - and because of that is harder to use it in 100% and probalby it will be "wasted" to push higher resolution
4) ps5 SSD being overkill or VA being better ( common guys which one is it in the end ?!)
Thirty7ven
Banned
Aliens. The real explanation.
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Gamernyc78
Banned
It amazes me how everything has been kept super top secret for so long.
BadBreathOfTheWild
Banned
With how you were trying to correct me when I said the logical addresses the host (CPU/game) uses differ from the actual physical addresses the flash chips use I don’t think you read it at all.
This is precisely how the storage system in the Sony patent you linked works.
Secondly, and I don’t know why you’ve yet to acknowledge it: in the context of the Cerny slides and discussing PS5 “SRAM” refers to a “large pool” of memory sitting outside of the flash drive and on the main SoC, and that is precisely what I was referring to when someone asked if that pool of RAM would be used for the address mapping table.
It wouldn’t be because it sits distant from the controller over a PCIe link and would add too much latency.
You then told me it doesn’t matter because the physical addresses are requested from there anyway, and the data has to be sent over PCIe anyway, which shows not only do you not understand what I was talking about, but you didn’t understand what the Sony patent you linked was actually talking about.
It precisely made the point I was making before I even saw this patent:
Controllers are responsible for physical addresses and selecting where to write.
Hosts are agnostic of this and deal with logical addresses.
Controllers have a lookup table to convert from logical addresses to physical addresses.
On SSD memory is used to store this table to speed up random read performance.
SSDs without a large enough pool to store this table nearby suffer not just in write performance but in random read performance.
Sony is trying to improve random read performance that much that this patent suggests that even DRAM isn’t fast enough and they can get away with SRAM if they’re clever with how they use these lookup tables and can swap in different ones depending on the kind of IO action.
You haven’t read the patent at all if you think this is an exposition of how things currently work. The patent is describing exactly how to improve on how things currently work by the changes mentioned above.
To get back to my original point and the only thing I argued (which is corroborated by the patent):
The SRAM as shown in Cerny’s slide is not used for logical/physical address look up table. It’s too distant.
An SSD having close access to a large enough pool of RAM (be it DRAM or SRAM or both or anything else) to store this look up table not only improves write performance but random read performance, too.
Random read performance is important to gaming and ultimate IO performance as indicated not only in Sony’s patent (which clearly is inspired by PS5 and not some other machine) but by Cerny himself who said a benefit of SSD is no need for large runs of sequential data containing duplicate data.
SSDs don’t have seeks, but there is still overhead associated with a lot of queued file requests. One such overhead being relating logical address to physical address, which is not only still happening on PS5, but is even explained in detail in the patent linked.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
What a wonderful post, dear friend. Now let's break it down:
That's something pretty interesting, although people may seem worried that they'll lose their jobs, I think many more studios will open and indie studios with rise up the ladder. It's might actually benefit all.
Yup, reminds me of this: (Timestamped, watch until at least 20:00)
It's wonderful, then you can craft and refine it even more. Reminds me of the amazing multiplayer in Far Cry 2 and how crazy the community designed levels and some are pretty hilarious.
And yes, devs won't waste so much potential in the PS5 just to compensate for less capable platforms, and some think that I'm exaggerating when I'm expecting more timed and permanent 3rd party exclusives on PS5. Devs wanna see their games praised for their beauty, and wanna have more freedom and better money savings.
Man, I can't imagine what next gen The Division 3 will be, what a wonderful map to explore, it's pretty dense and there some hidden missions as well and even hidden enemies that might jump on you while you're peacefully looting from offices and so
The level of detail in The Division I think it's the top for any open-world game.Exciting times!
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FeiRR
Banned
People stay at home. If you spill the beans, it's over some form of digital communication, which isn't safe. If not for the pandemic, I'd get some info myself, speaking face to face with people.
kuncol02
Banned
Cerny said "RDNA2 based" not that it maters, because it was confirmed by Lisa Su later
Cerny said 10TF max. We still don't know what real average computing power there is.
Sony said that they are on target for holiday release and now that date disapered from they web page.
Maybe they should spend some more time communicating about what they are doing instead of filling 20 minutes of presentation supposedly addressed to game developers with talking about technology which exists in gaming for years now (steam audio was published in 2017).
Zoro7
Banned
And here is the problem I was talking about. I can’t wait for next gen to be here so I never have to come back to this thread.
IkarugaDE
Member
Yes. Remembers me on Apples best times where it was hard to find any information or insider.
There is no point in continuing this discussion.
Really. Everything I've said is in the patent.
Including how file names are directly mapped to blocks (surprise, Sony SSD doesn't follow PC LBA legacy).
If you want to understand why Sony solution is unique and performant (and doesn't need any SDRAM on controller side) you can just carefully read it.
Thirty7ven
Banned
Needing less people to make a game is great, allows more smaller studios to form and make games. The Indie scene will flourish.
Needing less people to make the same game you made on PS4, on PS5, doesn't mean AAA developers like Naughty Dog will use less people to make their games. It just means they will divert budget elsewhere. There will be just as many people making their next game as there were in TLOU2, if not more.
Needing less people to make the same game you made on PS4, on PS5, doesn't mean AAA developers like Naughty Dog will use less people to make their games. It just means they will divert budget elsewhere. There will be just as many people making their next game as there were in TLOU2, if not more.
IkarugaDE
Member
How life looks like without this thread?
FeiRR
Banned
D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
Not really. I've always said that I thought the PS5 SSD tech is amazing, but that it might be overpowered. We should wait for the games, but there are a couple of devs that said this the same thing now.
FranXico
Member
Only the SSD though. Not the GPU. And let's not forget diminishing returns, which no longer applies to GPU power, but rather SSD bandwidth.
FeiRR
Banned
I remember exactly the same argument being thrown 7 years ago when it turned out that X1 is much weaker than PS4: our console is more balanced. Then IGN said that there's no difference between 720p and 1080p, which was in turn parroted by DF.
We just miss an Xbox exec getting banned and we're done.
FranXico
Member
You won't see such courtesies from RL toward the PS5 this time around, I'll tell you that.
MasterCornholio
Member
I've been reading this thread since it was created but there's no way I'm brave enough to read through it again.
The madness the madness!!!
BadBreathOfTheWild
Banned
The entire first half of the patent: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2017/0097897.html is describing exactly how they've made the conversion from LBA to Physical Address space efficient enough to fit on a much faster but smaller pool of in controller SRAM.
Fig 4 shows the SRAM pool (24) inside the controller (18) and not the one show in Cerny's slide that sits in the Host Unit (12). The two opposing arrows between the controller (18) and the host unit (12) correspond to the four lanes of PCIe 4.0 in Cerny's slides.
I never once said Sony's controller needs SDRAM on the controller side. I said "DRAMless" controllers which in the context of SSDs means controllers without a pool of RAM to use for writes or mapping tables, are slower not only at writes but also at random reads. The kind and configuration of that RAM large enough to be useful for mapping table look ups is irrelevant to the point.
I'm not sure what your native language is, but it seems you have a hard time comprehending not only the claims I've made, but also what is said and talked about in detail in about the first 60% of the patent you link to.
The conversation is pointless because you are unable to understand what it is even being said. You're arguing against a strawman that has made claims I have never made. You repeatedly fail to acknowledge what was being referred to as SRAM originally. You fail to understand that the patent you linked to does indeed use a flash controller that maps LBA to physical addresses, and does so in a very clever way that allows something even faster than on-SSD DRAM to be used.
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Kusarigama
Member
Tempest Engine can handle 3D audio whereas the dedicated sound chip on XSX can't do 3D audio, for 3D audio MS has software acceleration(Project Acoustics) which would require CPU/GPU resources.
Thirty7ven
Banned
Whoever said it’s starting to feel like 2013 was right on the money.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
For once, back up your claims and stop dreaming.
As Mark Cerny puts it, it only supports 32 of quality sources, while this is Dolby Atmos damage control:
"It is not correct that Dolby Atmos handles 32 objects maximum. As a technology, Dolby Atmos can support hundreds of objects simultaneously. Having said that, we refer to some advice from game developers who have already created content with Atmos support: objects are fantastic tools, but you should use them sparingly as regards their number in activity within the same scene. Too many moving objects can create a confusing sound environment."
Oops, The Tempest is GPU-based compute unit, cache-less, SPU-like chip capable of 5,000 sound sources, but they will use only hundreds of high quality sources instead: Timestamped
The XSX sound chip offloads the CPU, because it's the same, old fake 3D audio, CPU-based:
“We finally won’t have to fight with programmers and artists for memory and CPU power,” says senior sound designer Daniele Galante.
AMD's comparing CPU vs GPU 3D audio: (Timestamped)
Go back to your XboxEra Discord FUD generator and try something else.
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zaitsu
Banned
I saw it , 6 wentilators? Crazy right
Handy Fake
Member
That design has grown on me immeasurably.
Games Dean
Member
Also want to point out that someone on Twitter brought up this same point shortly after the demo came out and someone from Epic responded and said that UE5 was made to make games, not tech demos and that they have kept storage in mind. But he wouldn't go into details. I'll trust his words over the CEO of a company who doesn't even have access to the new engine yet.
Handy Fake
Member
Thirty7ven
Banned
oops
zaitsu
Banned
I remember that statement
kuncol02
Banned
I can answer that only one way. You have no idea what you are talking about.
zaitsu
Banned
Oh sure and you do ?
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BadBreathOfTheWild
Banned
All Sweeney ever said was that PS5's storage architecture is better than anything else out there. He was never only referring to the SSD. An entire IO pipeline will be as slow as its thinnest section, even if a section upstream is theoretically infinite.
Putting a faster and faster SSD into a traditional IO pipeline won't net faster and faster speeds. That's his point here.
BONUS EDIT: The SRAM as show in the main SoC of Cerny's Road to PS5 slides seems to be used for things like:
(emphasis mine)
The accelerator (42) in Fig 4 of the Sony patent is a generic logical stand-in that seems to relate to the Kraken decompressor, two IO co-processors and the "large pool of SRAM" as seen in Cerny's slide. It is a separate pool of SRAM from depicted in the flash controller (18), (24) of the same fig.
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ToadMan
Member
Yeah it would, but I think it's better to put it out of your mind for now.
While the US has it's problems, COVID is still an issue elsewhere. You can bet no one at manufacturing plants in places like China wants to risk their income right now just to leak something...
We might get a little nugget or two though. Hope for the best, plan for the worst...
kuncol02
Banned
Project Acoustic as library curently is software based because it exists now. You can use it in your game for xbox right now. It was confirmed by audio guy from Ninja Theory that Series X has hardware audio and now they don't have to fight for CPU and GPU resources.
And before someone will say, that it's not "real" 3d audio. It use HRTF exactly same way as PS5 or any other 3d spatial audio system like Oculus Audio Spatializer or Steam Audio.
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zaitsu
Banned
They will put their anc headphones in box
I think slower 6 ventilators are better than big very high rpm one
Handy Fake
Member
Mebbe that's what the noise cancellation tech mooted for the Dualsense is for.
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