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[TBiddy]

I do not know how you interpret this

"*As a technology*, Dolby Atmos *can* support hundreds of objects simultaneously."

They advice this:
"Objects are fantastic tools, but you should use them sparingly as regards their number in activity within the same scene. Too many moving objects can create a confusing sound environment."

Mark Cerny confirmed on record that Dolby Atmos is limited to 32 sources. You can go ahead and call him a liar but do you think... do you *really* think that Mark Cerny lied on stage about other sound technology?

Be better TBiddy .

I trust Dolby over Cerny. Dolby state that they support more than 32 sources, but they dont recommend it.

 

[geordiemp]

It looks exactly like the dev-kit, and it's common for dev-kits to have more ports and indicator LEDs at the front.



Devil's Advocate: Could this be due to a lack of processing power allocated to properly blend the sources together without introducing lots of phasing errors that destroys the effect etc? Cerny made a point that it gets very tricky and computationally costly to have these sound sources moving between these different calculated HRTF nodes etc.
Could it be that Atmos recommends limiting to 32 with the amount of processing they do. They too seem to mention moving sources.

One thing is for certain; Sony is throwing a significant amount of processing power into Tempest. Maybe that's what's meant by being able to do more than 32 sources. Not technically, but with enough processing to calculate how they'd move and interact without weird artefacts and phasing errors?

Cerny is just stating the power and capacity of tempest, does not mean games will us it all or need it for sure.

Whats important is there is spare compute that is very powerful for FFT workloads.

 

[zaitsu]

It would be crazy if the consoles design leaked this way.

I trust Dolby over Cerny. Dolby state that they support more than 32 sources, but they dont recommend it.

Sony isn't just console maker. They have added 360 audio this year to their profile.

 

[xPikYx]

By law if the NDA were planned for today 4th June by postponing the event I really doubt they had the chance to postpone NDAs too, at least they are smart enough to prevent rare situation like this that never happened before

 

[psorcerer]

I said "DRAMless" controllers which in the context of SSDs means controllers without a pool of RAM to use for writes or mapping tables, are slower not only at writes but also at random reads.

Only in the case when the conversion table is too big to fit on the controller.
Which is a universal case for PCs, but not for consoles. Where the conversion table can be stored in SRAM when the blocks are big enough.

 

[IkarugaDE]

It would be crazy if the consoles design leaked this way.

IMO we still saw it with the devkit and the new patent. Sure it will look a little different, but it seems to me more and more that the final console looks very similar.

 

[ArcaneNLSC]

I can imagine what happened here

 

[BadBreathOfTheWild]

Cerny is just stating the power and capacity of tempest, does not mean games will us it all or need it for sure.

Whats important is there is spare compute that is very powerful for FFT workloads.

I can't remember where I read/heard/watched it now, but as this was revealed there was a studio where the audio guy was extremely excited, and then some other developer said he'd be stealing it for physics. So while the primary function is audio, I bet some games will use it cleverly for other things. It's an extra processor for something very specific that hasn't been nailed down to only audio, which is great. Yet something else that doesn't really show up in a table comparing PS5 as if it was just a PC.

 

[Codexer]

 

[IkarugaDE]

Like I said yesterday: There is NO way Sony and Microsoft uses a 825GB or 1TB SSD if it only lasts for 5-6 games.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

The glorified, fake 3D audio that uses audio tracks placed around you to mimic 3D audio, can be processed on any CPU, doesn't need GPU nor ray tracing hardware: (It's short, but timestanped)

 

[Neo Blaster]

I would sit in front of her, wouldn't want something poking me in the wrong place.

There would be no safe side.

 

[Corndog]

1. You mean you don't know. Most people are much better informed. 10.3 Tflops is the mathematical performance of stream processors (2304 for PS5) and clock (2.23Ghz). That's it. Those 2 numbers. Tflops are not used to represent runtime performance.

2. This is brilliant. So Sony spent 1 hour giving a technical overview of their system. We came out of that with an appreciation of the technical nuances of the system, trade offs, benefits and .... excitement! I mean, it was a great presentation by any standard - for a tech presentation it was incredible. I'd love to see Cerny narrate Cosmos like Sagan used to - but I digress.

Meanwhile MS spent nearly an hour for their 3rd Party Gameplay Reveal and we saw not one game running on xsex, all but 2 games are cross gen/mulitplat and 50% of the "xsex" exclusives (although even they are running on PC) has it turns out 5 hours of real gameplay. Oh and 100% of what they showed was meh.

If you're gonna compare communication output, MS aren't gonna come out on top.

Sony has not said what minimum clocks are. That would be useful. They probably should show graph of a game running with rates displayed.

 

[Shio]

So spiderman was 46GB, without duplication it would be around 36GB. I wonder when PS4 titles are installed to PS5, will the duplicated content be deleted and thus the game use less space or will it stay the same?

 

[FeiRR]

So spiderman was 46GB, without duplication it would be around 36GB. I wonder when PS4 titles are installed to PS5, will the duplicated content be deleted and thus the game use less space or will it stay the same?

That's very unlikely and would require patching by devs.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

So spiderman was 46GB, without duplication it would be around 36GB. I wonder when PS4 titles are installed to PS5, will the duplicated content be deleted and thus the game use less space or will it stay the same?

Without LOD's is another measurement as well.

 

[Investor9872]

WIPO - Search International and National Patent Collections

I've always said that I like that devkit design, and had hoped that this will be the final PS5 design. It has always been function over form for me, and this looks like it can dissipate a lot of heat, with tons of airflow.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Like I said yesterday: There is NO way Sony and Microsoft uses a 825GB or 1TB SSD if it only lasts for 5-6 games.

5, 6 games are more than enough.

These companies have access to the data, they know how many games we have in these drives.

This idea that the majority of people switch between a dozen games is ludicrous. Like backlogs... no most people don’t have backlogs.

 

[BadBreathOfTheWild]

Only in the case when the conversion table is too big to fit on the controller.
Which is a universal case for PCs, but not for consoles. Where the conversion table can be stored in SRAM when the blocks are big enough.

No it isn't a universal case for PC. Most high performance PC SSDs use DRAM to cache the conversion table to help with random read performance. Newer, cheaper SSDs without this have been created for budget applications and lower power applications like notebooks.

These are typically referred to as "DRAMless SSDs", which is why I put it in quotes. It doesn't matter what RAM is used. These budget SSDs have poor write and random read performance.

PS5s innovation is being able to use SRAM entirely for caching this conversion table, which makes it even faster than using only DRAM, and cheaper than using a combination of both. They do this by changing the granularity of the table, and relying on a new method of file access that skips the typical virtual file system.

But guess what? The File Archive system as described in the patent you linked still issues logical addresses to the flash controller. Those logical addresses are converted to physical addresses by the flash controller, by means of a cached lookup table stored in local very fast RAM .

The application is not aware of the physical address of its data on the flash chips at all.
The patent you linked has no provision for an application being aware of wear rates of any flash addresses, either. Which makes no sense anyway.
The patent makes frequent mention of the bottlenecks associated with lots of small file requests, showing that random read is relevant to the way games access data, which is already obvious from Cerny's talk.

 

[3liteDragon]

What if we get a console reveal today with the new date? I mean, the patents are out already and the SoC's are being delivered to Foxconn next week for assembly and with that, chances of the final console design getting leaked are even higher at this point.

 

[IkarugaDE]

I've always said that I like that devkit design, and had hoped that this will be the final PS5 design. It has always been function over form for me, and this looks like it can dissipate a lot of heat, with tons of airflow.

I think there is also enough evidence that we have this design (certainly in black and white and a little more chic) in the living room.

 

[SonGoku]

I trust Dolby over Cerny. Dolby state that they support more than 32 sources, but they dont recommend it.

There's a physical limitation with supporting too many audio sources on multi speaker setups because of the crossover (your right ear can hear sounds meant for left and viceversa) it creates artifacts
The main benefit of TE over Dolby is that its a standardized spec that devs can target with the reassurance that the whole userbase can benefit from it. Because of this its bound to get better support

 

[juaco1993]

If you want to have a deep look at the dualsense:

WIPO - Search International and National Patent Collections

Bro, Having looked at the patent linked I think that that is just a Dualshock 4

 

[Three Jackdaws]

What if we get a console reveal today with the new date? I mean, the patents are out already and the SoC's are being delivered to Foxconn next week and with that, chances of the design getting leaked are even higher.

This has been my hunch, especially since some patents were published today including the cooling solution. My guess would be we see the console design in the next few days. Again, it's just a hunch.

 

[kuncol02]

So spiderman was 46GB, without duplication it would be around 36GB. I wonder when PS4 titles are installed to PS5, will the duplicated content be deleted and thus the game use less space or will it stay the same?

That's easy to answer. NO. That would require changes in game code.

 

[IkarugaDE]

5, 6 games are more than enough.

These companies have access to the data, they know how many games we have in these drives.

This idea that the majority of people switch between a dozen games is ludicrous. Like backlogs... no most people don’t have backlogs.

It's enough for you? Okay. Not for me. I like to buy stuff in the PS Store and play several games side by side.

Bro, Having looked at the patent linked I think that that is just a Dualshock 4

That's definitely the dualsense. Look closer at the pictures, especially that with the front-view.

 

[Delpij]

What's new in that cooling system? Judging by pictures and English text it works like any other console or other similar device before. Just bigger, uglier and with more fans.
I don't think that final version could be thinner with that type of cooling. It's limited by size of fans.

While vapor chamber cooling has been used for some time, there is nothing obvious about meeting airflow requirements of an a OC gaming system with a v-shaped chassis and 6 fans.
But maybe that's just me fanboying... At any rate I'm interested in the noise and temperature benchmarks that will surely follow the launch.

 

[SSDfan]

I AM really ignorant when It comes to technology, so I do not dare to engage in any discussion with deep tech analysis, but after UE5 demo and Tim comments, that statement about ps5 being the most exciting hardware in years, The Lisa comment from AMD saying that MarkCerny had developed something special and revolutionary, the Jason comment about ps5 being better in many different ways, all these start to make more and more sense now.

It seems that, when maneging data, there are a Lot phases that You need to pass through (descompress, copy, read, transfer to memory vídeo etc) and with the super alien I/O technology on Ps5 Skip all these instantsniously, no bottlenecks, making huge amount of data avaliable with a split of a second, and without taking any resource from CPU.

Mark Cerny is not just Genius, he is visionary.

 

[juaco1993]

It's enough for you? Okay. Not for me. I like to buy stuff in the PS Store and play several games side by side.


That's definitely the dualsense. Look closer at the pictures, especially that with the front-view.

I'm sorry if im wrong but for me it doesn't look like the dualsense. Maybe it has its features but an older design?

 

[SSfox]

Like I said yesterday: There is NO way Sony and Microsoft uses a 825GB or 1TB SSD if it only lasts for 5-6 games.

Yeah i don't believe in that games will be 300 GB. Actual games take a lot of space because of being very big Scale but also because it has a lot its stuffs duplicated.

 

[Thirty7ven]

It's enough for you? Okay. Not for me. I like to buy stuff in the PS Store and play several games side by side.


That's definitely the dualsense. Look closer at the pictures, especially that with the front-view.

Sure and somebody might enter through the door and say they need at least 2TB because thats how they rolll.

I’m talking about mass market.

 

[BadBreathOfTheWild]

Sony has not said what minimum clocks are. That would be useful. They probably should show graph of a game running with rates displayed.

The only thing we've had from Sony on the clocks is that they're expected to stay at or near the maximum at all times, as a couple of percent reduction in clocks reduces power consumption by 10%. And you don't need to reduce power consumption by 10% to 90% if you want to be running it at near 100% capacity.

Cerny further clarified in an Eurogamer interview that the clocks stay high without relying on any race-to-idle condition. As in they stayed at maximum clocks even during a game task where the GPU spent the entire 33ms frame doing work.

Anyone expecting the clocks to dip more than a few Mhz is dreaming. Anyone expecting them to dip to 2.0Ghz hasn't understood the technology as implemented. Die temperature isn't even considered.

 

[SSfox]

What if we get a console reveal today with the new date? I mean, the patents are out already and the SoC's are being delivered to Foxconn next week for assembly and with that, chances of the final console design getting leaked are even higher at this point.

A new date for today would so good. But i'm going to bet for tommorow

Spoiler

But sure i'm definitely not against a reveal date for Today haha

 

[FeiRR]

It's enough for you? Okay. Not for me. I like to buy stuff in the PS Store and play several games side by side.

Thus you shall pay for your lavishness with your euro geld!

 

[Filip JDM]

So spiderman was 46GB, without duplication it would be around 36GB. I wonder when PS4 titles are installed to PS5, will the duplicated content be deleted and thus the game use less space or will it stay the same?

I think that would require to completely change how scenes were built, they'll probably stay same in size

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

I'm sorry if im wrong but for me it doesn't look like the dualsense. Maybe it has its features but an older design?

This controller and the dev kit have the same priority date so I'm guessing this is a DS4-based prototype controller for the dev kit.

 

[3liteDragon]

That's definitely the dualsense. Look closer at the pictures, especially that with the front-view.

Look at the R1 and R2 buttons on the patent, there's something separating both buttons. DualSense doesn't have that, that's a DualSense prototype with the DualShock 4's design.

 

[Dodkrake]

The dualshock patent is from 2019. Unless this is a revision of the Dualshock 4, I'm saying this is an early dualsense

International Filing Date22.05.2019

 

[IkarugaDE]

I'm sorry if im wrong but for me it doesn't look like the dualsense. Maybe it has its features but an older design?

It is not atypical that such drawings are not entirely accurate to the end product. The drawings may also be a prototype.

However, if you take your own DS4 and compare it with the drawings, you will see some distinct differences (especially on the front).

 

[SSfox]

I AM really ignorant when It comes to technology, so I do not dare to engage in any discussion with deep tech analysis, but after UE5 demo and Tim comments, that statement about ps5 being the most exciting hardware in years, The Lisa comment from AMD saying that MarkCerny had developed something special and revolutionary, the Jason comment about ps5 being better in many different ways, all these start to make more and more sense now.

It seems that, when maneging data, there are a Lot phases that You need to pass through (descompress, copy, read, transfer to memory vídeo etc) and with the super alien I/O technology on Ps5 Skip all these instantsniously, no bottlenecks, making huge amount of data avaliable with a split of a second, and without taking any resource from CPU.

Mark Cerny is not just Genius, he is visionary.

For someone who says "I AM really ignorant when It comes to technology", i think you already knows more and better than some youtubers clowns with 1 million views that think they know some shit.

Santé!!

 

[Dodkrake]

Update:

Could be related to some sort of mic tech included in the remote?

background
[0002]
many of input devices used for a game operation have a plurality of operation members such as an operation stick, a push button, a cross key (directional key), and a trigger button. Patent document 1 discloses an input device having such an operation member and having a voice input function. The input device has a microphone array composed of a plurality of microphones. In patent document 1, adaptive beamforming processing is performed on speech voice of an user by using sound data obtained from a plurality of microphones
prior art documents
patent document
[0003]
patent document 1: international publication 2005／ 022951
summary of the invention
problem to be solved by the invention
[0004]
in a state in which the user holds the input device, a finger is placed on the operation member, and the finger is extended to operate the operation member. Depending on the position of the microphone, a finger operating a hand for gripping the input device and a finger for operating the operation member may be a hindrance to sound collection by the microphone, and there is a possibility that generation of appropriate sound data may be inhibited
means for solving the problem
[0005]
an input device proposed in this disclosure includes, a right held part having an upper surface on which a first right operation member operated by a finger of the right hand is arranged, and has an upper surface on which a first left operation member operated by a finger of the left hand is arranged, a center part located between the right held part and the left part to be held, a first microphone disposed inside the center part and located behind the center of the center part in the fore-and-aft direction, and a second microphone disposed inside the center part
[0006]
according to this input device, an influence of a finger for operating an input device and a finger for operating an operation member can be reduced with respect to a sound collection by the first microphone and a sound collection by the second microphone. Further, according to the input device, the acquisition performance of the speech voice of the user through the first microphone can be improved

 

[Dodkrake]

Another update, there were published 9 patents today by Sony

Hope the link works: https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/result.jsf?_vid=P11-KB0UCX-41722

 

[MasterCornholio]

Another update, there were published 9 patents today by Sony

Hope the link works: https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/result.jsf?_vid=P11-KB0UCX-41722

Kind makes me believe that we would have seen the actual console today.

 

[Handy Fake]

Another update, there were published 9 patents today by Sony

Hope the link works: https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/result.jsf?_vid=P11-KB0UCX-41722

3.WO/2020/110507IMAGE DISPLAY DEVICE AND ELECTRONIC APPARATUS WO - 04.06.2020 Int.Class H04N 5/74 Appl.No PCT/JP2019/041088 Applicant SONY CORPORATION Inventor OHKAWA Shingo This image display device comprises: a first optical unit that refracts light from a display element so as to change the direction of advancement along an optical path; a second optical unit upon which the light refracted by the first optical unit falls incident; and a control unit that, when a display region of the display element is divided into a plurality of regions along a scanning direction, controls the distance between the first optical unit and the second optical unit depending on the plurality of regions, thereby establishing a state in which the timing for changing the direction of advancement along the optical path is different depending on the plurality of regions.

Could that be eyetracking for PSVR..?

 

[Dodkrake]

I've created a thread where we can discuss this, if people so choose to. Feel free to drop stuff here as well.

 

[BadBreathOfTheWild]

I think if you keep your PS4 games on an external drive then m.2 PCIe 4.0 NVMe drives of sufficient speed and suitable form factor will be abundant and cheap on the open market before 825 GB becomes a problem. Certainly cheaper than a proprietary drive, and potentially of larger capacities, too.
It's a bit of a none issue for me personally. If we were limited to 825 GB for life then I'd be concerned, especially 4-5 years into the generation when the really big stuff that learns on the hardware capabilities starts coming out.

PS4's launched with 500 GB, and yet late in some PS4 games take a huge chunk out of that.
The same will apply here. The answer is storage upgrade, which will be even easier than ever before as you don't even need to replace the original drive any more, but merely add to it. Complete non-issue, as is an IO shredding 200 GB game of the future.

Upgrading a PS4 drive isn't an easy task for a beginner. Adding an additional m.2 drive to a bay will be child's play by comparison.

 

[sircaw]

I AM really ignorant when It comes to technology, so I do not dare to engage in any discussion with deep tech analysis, but after UE5 demo and Tim comments, that statement about ps5 being the most exciting hardware in years, The Lisa comment from AMD saying that MarkCerny had developed something special and revolutionary, the Jason comment about ps5 being better in many different ways, all these start to make more and more sense now.

It seems that, when maneging data, there are a Lot phases that You need to pass through (descompress, copy, read, transfer to memory vídeo etc) and with the super alien I/O technology on Ps5 Skip all these instantsniously, no bottlenecks, making huge amount of data avaliable with a split of a second, and without taking any resource from CPU.

Mark Cerny is not just Genius, he is visionary.

Totally agree, and if you search for his daughter Amanda on google, she is also a Visionary.

Be warned though, trying to access those high quality assets will need some serious hardware and if your not up to spec there will be stutter.

 

[Kusarigama]

K Kalashnikov89 What time do you enjoy for dinner again?

 

[SSfox]

3.WO/2020/110507IMAGE DISPLAY DEVICE AND ELECTRONIC APPARATUS WO - 04.06.2020 Int.Class H04N 5/74 Appl.No PCT/JP2019/041088 Applicant SONY CORPORATION Inventor OHKAWA Shingo This image display device comprises: a first optical unit that refracts light from a display element so as to change the direction of advancement along an optical path; a second optical unit upon which the light refracted by the first optical unit falls incident; and a control unit that, when a display region of the display element is divided into a plurality of regions along a scanning direction, controls the distance between the first optical unit and the second optical unit depending on the plurality of regions, thereby establishing a state in which the timing for changing the direction of advancement along the optical path is different depending on the plurality of regions.

Could that be eyetracking for PSVR..?

So PS5 may look something close to that? Interesting.

It doesn't look as thicc as 2 PS4 Pro to me tho, maybe that russian leak was fake?

While hard to give a real opinion on this but looks pretty good from this angle.

Now Sony better hurry up before the Sh1t got leak, i mean just saying.

 

[BadBreathOfTheWild]

3.WO/2020/110507IMAGE DISPLAY DEVICE AND ELECTRONIC APPARATUS WO - 04.06.2020 Int.Class H04N 5/74 Appl.No PCT/JP2019/041088 Applicant SONY CORPORATION Inventor OHKAWA Shingo This image display device comprises: a first optical unit that refracts light from a display element so as to change the direction of advancement along an optical path; a second optical unit upon which the light refracted by the first optical unit falls incident; and a control unit that, when a display region of the display element is divided into a plurality of regions along a scanning direction, controls the distance between the first optical unit and the second optical unit depending on the plurality of regions, thereby establishing a state in which the timing for changing the direction of advancement along the optical path is different depending on the plurality of regions.

Could that be eyetracking for PSVR..?

More likely focus adjusting to help with the "accommodation reflex" in the eye. Another more minor VR comfort task to work on.

Love how much R&D Sony are pouring in VR. PS5 era VR--providing they implement all this stuff--will be truly next-generation. What they did already on an anaemic PS4 using PS3 tracking is extremely impressive. The PS VR sub-pixel layout, proper lenses and head interface is still better than a lot of PC VR.