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Matt weighs in on PS5 I/O, PS5 vs XSX and what it means for PC.

Azurro

Banned
I will put targetted BOM as part of the consideration. MS seems to like $499 while Sony seems to want maintain their $399 success.
In an ideal case, Sony SSD input(R&D) will produce a much higher output(results), or in another case, the SSD output is proportionate to its input. So it's a wonder how much effort Sony spent on this 'game changer' at $399 BOM.
IIRC i read from Epic China forums, that Sony chose 825gb for cost reasons.

Im just throwing tons of questions beyond fawning over the SSD. Hopefully this opens up more threads, and more people can pick up and makes its way to the press or Sony. We need more clarity. With more openess, it puts pressure how both consoles will set the msrp. Instead of riding on the buzz and excitement. If for unfavorable circumstances that your targetted BOM got inflated, gamers deserve to know too.
I also think PS5 visuals will start off strongly because of their generation policy. Hopefully the press and gamers take that into consideration. 🤷‍♀️

Kind of funny how you are all about "clarity" when you are quite content posting Xbox PR material all over the forum.
 

Exodia

Banned
Yes it is 3,4 or 5 years , go watch the interview, your making things up again.



11.40 onwards, OWNED yet again.

And listen to teh rest of it, bring in high quality assets EVERY FRAME.

Dont worry, Tim loves all his children. :messenger_beaming:


That's what every developer talked about. This is exactly what he said in this tweet. You owned yourself!

The discussions with Sony/MS about on whats needed for next gen graphic and storage arch started ~4 years.
The actual development of Nanite started after the confirmation of SSD and the development happened ON PC with regular SSD. Devkits, specs and likewise api were only available in 2019. The development process of Nanite had nothing to do with Sony. Nothing. It was only in 2019 did it began targeting the PS5.


Sony only got involved after the development of the demo ("lumen in the land of nanite") began late 2019 by the special projects team at Epic Games.
 
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Exodia

Banned
There are two parts to this:



and



I posted those tweets in the last page and i already explained them.

1) The discussions with Sony/MS about on whats needed for next gen graphic and storage arch started ~4 years. This is simply Epic games like other developers telling Sony what they wanted. This is nothing special. When Epic games got confirmation from MS and Sony that they will use SSD. They began development on nanite. Development WAS on a PC and had NOTHING to do with the PS5 till 2019 when the specs, devkits and api shipped. How is it you people cannot understand?

2) The demo project by the special projects team was started late 2019. This is why it says "we've been working on with Sony over the past months"
 
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geordiemp

Member
I posted those tweets in the last page and i already explained them.

1) The discussions with Sony/MS about on whats needed for next gen graphic and storage arch started ~4 years. This is simply Epic games like other developers telling Sony what they wanted. This is nothing special.

Thats your take = its nothing special, just asking epic what do you want ? Thats your take.

The actual words from the gamespot interview, Tim sweeny

We are really closely partnered with Sony on this demo, we literally have been talking to them must of been about for 3,4 or 5 years, not just for graphics, obviously we talk about graphics, but the storage architecture and all the supporting systems that are needed to build next generation games that have vast amounts of visual detail. I need to bring in detail every frame at a very high frame rate.
 
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Jigsaah

Gold Member
If people call the PS5's 10.3 weak because Xbox Series X is 12, then the Xbox Series X which is half the speed of PS5, must be weak. That 50% difference is a lot bigger than the difference between 10.3 and 12.
Neither of them are weak. Jesus do you folks windmill slap when you fight?

tenor.gif
 

Vaztu

Member
I posted those tweets in the last page and i already explained them.

1) The discussions with Sony/MS about on whats needed for next gen graphic and storage arch started ~4 years. This is simply Epic games like other developers telling Sony what they wanted. This is nothing special. When Epic games got confirmation from MS and Sony that they will use SSD. They began development on nanite. Development WAS on a PC and had NOTHING to do with the PS5 till 2019 when the specs, devkits and api shipped. How is it you people cannot understand?

2) The demo project by the special projects team was started late 2019. This is why it says "we've been working on with Sony over the past months"

Sony and Epic can influence each others' projects. Epic aren't like any other game devs, they are game engine devs too.

Sweeney certainly says they worked closely for years and calls it a partnership. Years of discussions lead to a fruitful result - the demo. You just simplify it and divide those tweets into two separate entities. It could be that UE5's development influenced Sony's IO too.

Do we know when development of Nanite and Lumen started ?
 

Exodia

Banned
Thats your take = its nothing special, just asking epic what do you want ? Thats your take.

The actual words from the gamespot interview, Tim sweeny

"We are really closely partnered with Sony on this demo, we literally have been talking to them must of been about for 3,4 or 5 years, not just for graphics, obviously we talk about graphics, but the storage architecture"

There are two events in that statement which he already explained in two tweets. One is the discussion on what next gen consoles should have in regards to graphical specs and storage architecture. The other is the actual hands on collaboration with Sony on this particular demo.

Come on this is basic reading comprehension!

First is: ""We are really closely partnered with Sony on this demo".
In his tweet: "100% of the stuff we've been working on with Sony over the past months is now publicly announced "

Then the second part is "we literally have been talking to them must of been about for 3,4 or 5 years, not just for graphics, obviously we talk about graphics, but the storage architecture "
Another tweet: "The Unreal Engine 5 demo on PlayStation 5 was the culmination of years of discussions between Sony and Epic on future graphics and storage architectures."

Do you not know the difference between actually working hands on with Sony on this particular demo over the past months.
Compared to the tech this demo is based on is the result of discussions between Sony about future GPU specs and storage architecture for next gen that happened over the past few years?

close partnership on demo vs discussion on what future next gen consoles needs.

Again this is BASIC READING COMPREHENSION!
 
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NullZ3r0

Banned
Wait, wait... are you serious that you believe that % don't mean anything? :messenger_grinning_smiling: Who dared him to say this?!?!
I'm assuming you're smart enough to understand this. There's at least a 2 TFLOPS difference between the two machines. Using percentage as a metric simply to make the gap seem smaller is stupid. At the end of the day its still 2 whole TFLOPS which is a bigger difference than the start of this Gen.

What's so hard to understand about this?
 

ToadMan

Member
What you wrote is unintelligible. Its relative performance versus absolute difference?

No matter what the PS5 does at full optimized clock, the X can do 1.8 TRILLION more calculations before you throw in RT. LOL

It has 44% more units doing work...before RT and ML... that scales.

You sound crazy 😜

Well a lot of people didn’t comprehend Einstein either...

Evidently the lack of understanding of relativety remains widespread.
 

NullZ3r0

Banned
Yes, Series X has the better GPU. PS5 has faster storage.
both will have benefits, currently devs say the benefits of the faster storage is a bigger deal but we will have to wait and see.

welcome to the last 2 months.
Both machines will see the benefits of faster storage. However, the delta in performance between the two systems will not manifest itself in games. In real world scenarios, we're talking about tenths of a second in differential between the machines. In terms of storage speed a tenth of a second is a large unit. In terms of user experience, not so much. This is especially true since gamers are used to tens upon tens of seconds for loading times this gen.
 

ToadMan

Member
My launch PS3 also suffered YLOD.
PS3 and 360 reliability was hampered by laws of that time, dont be sneaky!

Xbox One was the only mis-step. Under Phil, we see Xbox returning to their power roots.

Like comon guys, MS has a history of ultimate power out in their consoles.
All this talk about SSD custom design compensation, that Sony is the only great one around.... :messenger_grinning_sweat:

Uh failure rates for 360 were way beyond those of PS3 if memory serves. In fact I just googled it and the 360 had 5x the failure rate of PS3!

Wow - I didn’t think it was that bad. That certainly was a big factor in me skipping Xbox this gen - coupled with poor content of course.

Then there was the ESRAM nonsense due to cost cutting which they’re doing a good job of recreating this gen with 2 speed VRAM and a 10gb limit. I thought we’d move past non unified memory by now but ms seem to love to make devs jump though hoops.
 
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geordiemp

Member
"We are really closely partnered with Sony on this demo, we literally have been talking to them must of been about for 3,4 or 5 years, not just for graphics, obviously we talk about graphics, but the storage architecture"

There are two events in that statement which he already explained in two tweets. One is the discussion on what next gen consoles should have in regards to graphical specs and storage architecture. The other is the actual hands on collaboration with Sony on this particular demo.

Come on this is basic reading comprehension!

First is: ""We are really closely partnered with Sony on this demo".
In his tweet: "100% of the stuff we've been working on with Sony over the past months is now publicly announced "

Then the second part is "we literally have been talking to them must of been about for 3,4 or 5 years, not just for graphics, obviously we talk about graphics, but the storage architecture "
Another tweet: "The Unreal Engine 5 demo on PlayStation 5 was the culmination of years of discussions between Sony and Epic on future graphics and storage architectures."

Do you not know the difference between actually working hands on with Sony on this particular demo over the past months.
Compared to the tech this demo is based on is the result of discussions between Sony about future GPU specs and storage architecture for next gen that happened over the past few years?

close partnership on demo vs discussion on what future next gen consoles needs.

Again this is BASIC READING COMPREHENSION!

So, you are saying is what Tim Sweeny actally meant was

We spoke with MS and Sony 4 years ago to tell them what we wanted. That was it, nothing special and all equal.

But we only told Sony about Nanite in detail and co ooperated with Sony on an absolute minimal level once we got the dev kit and that was it, we only used ps5 cos it arrived earlier and the IO did not look too shabby.

/s

Whatever :messenger_beaming:
 
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Md Ray

Member
An overclocked 2070S at 2ghz would put it like 10.2tflops... :goog_hugging_face:

As i said i took 2080Ti over 2080S because this hass more 'representative gap' of what i expect. If Nvidia had blessed 2080S with more cores, than i take that.
Again this is my guess, a 25~30% performance advantage on Series X overall.
Thats how both hardware stacked up imo
And...? 2070S 10.2 TF vs 2080 Ti 14 TF is still nearly 40% difference in TFLOPS. PS5 to XSX is much, much smaller in comparison at 18%, still.

With 2080 Ti, you get 30% more fps on avg. with 55% more TFLOPS than 2070S. The fps difference will be even smaller than 30% between these two cards if 2070S is OC'd to have peak 10.2 TF.

That said, what makes you guess XSX will have ~30% perf adv. with 18% more TFLOPS? LOL. That's not how it works.
 
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There's gonna be a lot of disappointment when people realize that all 3rd party games will use a PC mid tier SSD as the lowest common denominator for their games, which means the PS5 will have zero advantages there. Meanwhile the XSX will consistently beat the PS5 in resolution and RT implementation. I'm saying this as someone who is gonna buy a PS5 btw.

Only in first party games Sony's SSD will truly shine.
 

Shmunter

Member
There's gonna be a lot of disappointment when people realize that all 3rd party games will use a PC mid tier SSD as the lowest common denominator for their games, which means the PS5 will have zero advantages there. Meanwhile the XSX will consistently beat the PS5 in resolution and RT implementation. I'm saying this as someone who is gonna buy a PS5 btw.

Only in first party games Sony's SSD will truly shine.
There’s always that risk. But on the flip side if ps5 ease of development is legit, devs may gravitate towards it, with it becoming the target platform. Especially if it dominates sales which is expected for the brand. If this happens, things may get very sweaty on the other platforms indeed, compromised down ports the standard. Anything’s possible.
 

quest

Not Banned from OT
There's gonna be a lot of disappointment when people realize that all 3rd party games will use a PC mid tier SSD as the lowest common denominator for their games, which means the PS5 will have zero advantages there. Meanwhile the XSX will consistently beat the PS5 in resolution and RT implementation. I'm saying this as someone who is gonna buy a PS5 btw.

Only in first party games Sony's SSD will truly shine.
Your probably right except i think unreal 5 games will run best on the ps5. It is only platform to get major parts getting rewritten and optimized. Epic is really putting a full press to get those Sony games on the epic store. What better way than to make the PS5 version the only one with special optimizations and months and months of extra work. Give the pc and other platforms generic code then go on Twitter 2 years a head of time to make excused why it won't perform well outside of the PS5.
 

sircaw

Banned
There's gonna be a lot of disappointment when people realize that all 3rd party games will use a PC mid tier SSD as the lowest common denominator for their games, which means the PS5 will have zero advantages there. Meanwhile the XSX will consistently beat the PS5 in resolution and RT implementation. I'm saying this as someone who is gonna buy a PS5 btw.

Only in first party games Sony's SSD will truly shine.

Remember that quote from Matt

Even if you as a consumer don’t consciously realize all the ways it will improve games on many levels, the difference for devs is striking.

This i imagine is going to be a massive deal going forward into the generation
 

Lethal01

Member
Both machines will see the benefits of faster storage. However, the delta in performance between the two systems will not manifest itself in games. In real world scenarios, we're talking about tenths of a second in differential between the machines. In terms of storage speed a tenth of a second is a large unit. In terms of user experience, not so much. This is especially true since gamers are used to tens upon tens of seconds for loading times this gen.

It's a good thing we aren't talking about load times.
Difference will manifest in visuals.
 

ToadMan

Member
There's gonna be a lot of disappointment when people realize that all 3rd party games will use a PC mid tier SSD as the lowest common denominator for their games, which means the PS5 will have zero advantages there. Meanwhile the XSX will consistently beat the PS5 in resolution and RT implementation. I'm saying this as someone who is gonna buy a PS5 btw.

Only in first party games Sony's SSD will truly shine.

But other people are saying PCs are super scalable and using that as trade off against the Xsex 1/2 speed SSD ....

Anyway the biggest data transfers are textures. They can de downscaled relatively easily (and indeed automatically) and that’s something already done last gen. So I don’t think PS5 will find itself limited by slower hardware.

GPU and things like RT - that takes time to optimise and that’s where devs can decide to cut corners.
 

killatopak

Gold Member
There's gonna be a lot of disappointment when people realize that all 3rd party games will use a PC mid tier SSD as the lowest common denominator for their games, which means the PS5 will have zero advantages there. Meanwhile the XSX will consistently beat the PS5 in resolution and RT implementation. I'm saying this as someone who is gonna buy a PS5 btw.

Only in first party games Sony's SSD will truly shine.
We’ve spent generations after generations of consoles having lower LOD setting, texture settings, loading, etc because it has always been the lowest common denominator in every single aspect of a gaming piece of hardware. While PC has been able to benefit from having better hardware even if they’re not the target platform or the lowest common denominator. Now that the new consoles have something superior to their PC counterparts, suddenly it doesn’t matter?

PC will definitely win the framerate, resolution and raytracing comparisons but these new console will allow for something not available in the PC space for the first few years even on multiplatform games.

And yes I’m including the XSX here because of what they’re doing not just in terms of I/O but even just the speed of their SSD is also remarkable. Even if they are equaled in the near future, it won’t be cheap.
 
It's a good thing we aren't talking about load times.
Difference will manifest in visuals.

Do any of you people even know how that will play out?

This is just a stealth way of implying the SSDs will power graphics fidelity, as if they are actually rendering the graphics. That's false. Theoretically speaking the faster the SSD can transfer data to RAM the sooner the CPU, GPU etc. needing said data in RAM can access it, but there are many different ways to actually achieve this.

At the end of the day the GPU is what's doing the rendering of visual output, and we know which system has the advantage there (in almost every area outside of clockspeeds, which only affect the rate of cache speeds and pixel fillrate). We know which system has the wider memory bus for GPU-bound data, and faster RAM bandwidth. We know which system likely has the larger L3 cache for the GPU and customizations targeting ML, AI, RT etc.

One system having the ability to load in data assets to/from RAM faster is beneficial of course (and will have its advantages), but there are clever data programming techniques that both systems can use to reduce the size of even uncompressed data transfers from storage to RAM, and altering that data at run time through GPU programming techniques. And due to the extra GPU headroom, that's one area the XSX seems to have the overall advantage, and yes that does mean aside from raw TF.

Targeting that advantage, though, will probably require more effort from devs vs. targeting the advantages of Sony's SSD I/O due to the nature of what we're talking about here. But the potential is definitely there, and it'll be easier next-gen than it's ever been in generations past, particularly factoring in whatever software API optimizations (including proprietary solutions) MS is developing such as BCPack.

Hopefully this clears up some confusion; I'm not saying having a very fast or robust SSD I/O complex won't assist in visual fidelity, far from it. But there's a limit to how much that will help when the other system has a more powerful GPU and its own GPU customizations thereof. And no, percentage differentials alone don't tell you everything; the way the systems are right now based on what we know and can speculate, a system like PS5 would need a much larger favoring percentage delta with the SSD than just 125% (and in areas besides simply SSD I/O) to result in visual fidelity that's in any way superior to XSX on a technical/objective (subjective/artistic is an entirely different thing and not really dependent on technical feature sets, or should say not restrained by them vs. in the past) level.

That's just reality. Each system has its advantages, and they both have strengths in areas that will help them "punch above their weight" beyond what paper specs state. In some ways these advantages will even be able to help mitigate weaknesses they have in select areas. But in the role of a system architecture, the GPU is doing much more of the overall work than an SSD or the associative I/O, so the weight of advantages one system has over the other in given areas is actually not 1:1 nor clearly reflected through paper spec comparisons.

It's quite simple (y)
 

ToadMan

Member
I'm assuming you're smart enough to understand this. There's at least a 2 TFLOPS difference between the two machines. Using percentage as a metric simply to make the gap seem smaller is stupid. At the end of the day its still 2 whole TFLOPS which is a bigger difference than the start of this Gen.

What's so hard to understand about this?

There’s nothing about using percentage to make the difference smaller. It’s just maths - it doesn’t matter that you don’t like it, that is how it works.

The relative gap is applied to similar devices doing similar jobs with similar tech. That’s how performance comparison works in all machinery - not just computing devices.

Next gen games will consume the power available. It’s doesn’t matter if that is 1tflop or 1000tflop.

If you have a multiplat game that runs at 1440/30fps on PS5, you could perhaps expect 1440/34fps on Xsex under ideal circumstances. In reality there won’t be any practical difference and perhaps Xsex loses the frames due to memory management.

These consoles are an “order of magnitude” (or even 2) more powerful than the last gen. but they are still in the same relative performance zone to each other. That’s why the percentage difference is the accurate way to compare.
 
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Lethal01

Member
Do any of you people even know how that will play out?

This is just a stealth way of implying the SSDs will power graphics fidelity, as if they are actually rendering the graphics. That's false. Theoretically speaking the faster the SSD can transfer data to RAM the sooner the CPU, GPU etc. needing said data in RAM can access it, but there are many different ways to actually achieve this.

At the end of the day the GPU is what's doing the rendering of visual output, and we know which system has the advantage there (in almost every area outside of clockspeeds, which only affect the rate of cache speeds and pixel fillrate). We know which system has the wider memory bus for GPU-bound data, and faster RAM bandwidth. We know which system likely has the larger L3 cache for the GPU and customizations targeting ML, AI, RT etc.

One system having the ability to load in data assets to/from RAM faster is beneficial of course (and will have its advantages), but there are clever data programming techniques that both systems can use to reduce the size of even uncompressed data transfers from storage to RAM, and altering that data at run time through GPU programming techniques. And due to the extra GPU headroom, that's one area the XSX seems to have the overall advantage, and yes that does mean aside from raw TF.

Targeting that advantage, though, will probably require more effort from devs vs. targeting the advantages of Sony's SSD I/O due to the nature of what we're talking about here. But the potential is definitely there, and it'll be easier next-gen than it's ever been in generations past, particularly factoring in whatever software API optimizations (including proprietary solutions) MS is developing such as BCPack.

Hopefully this clears up some confusion; I'm not saying having a very fast or robust SSD I/O complex won't assist in visual fidelity, far from it. But there's a limit to how much that will help when the other system has a more powerful GPU and its own GPU customizations thereof. And no, percentage differentials alone don't tell you everything; the way the systems are right now based on what we know and can speculate, a system like PS5 would need a much larger favoring percentage delta with the SSD than just 125% (and in areas besides simply SSD I/O) to result in visual fidelity that's in any way superior to XSX on a technical/objective (subjective/artistic is an entirely different thing and not really dependent on technical feature sets, or should say not restrained by them vs. in the past) level.

That's just reality. Each system has its advantages, and they both have strengths in areas that will help them "punch above their weight" beyond what paper specs state. In some ways these advantages will even be able to help mitigate weaknesses they have in select areas. But in the role of a system architecture, the GPU is doing much more of the overall work than an SSD or the associative I/O, so the weight of advantages one system has over the other in given areas is actually not 1:1 nor clearly reflected through paper spec comparisons.

It's quite simple (y)

Yes, it's simple, the difference of the PS5 SSD compared to the XBSX will be noticeable in it's visuals.
Did I say that the XSX GPU won't also give noticeable difference? no.

You can speculate all you want about which of these will have the differences people care more about.
 
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Yes, it's simple, the difference of the PS5 SSD compared to the XBSX will be noticeable in it's visuals.
Did I say that the XSX GPU won't also give noticeable difference? no.

You can speculate all you want about which of these will have the differences people care more about.

At least my speculation is based on an understanding of this tech. Again, the SSD I/O delta (as defined through the paper data so far, rather than what we've really seen in practice in next-gen games) is not enough to essentially close a graphical rendering gap.

The GPU still needs to render the visuals, the CPU still needs to instruct the GPU what to render, and the data (for the most part) still needs to be accessed from RAM. People are under the assumption all components of a system architecture are equal partners. They are not. Some inherently are doing a lot more work than the other.

Generally speaking, the CPU and especially the GPU are still doing the vast bulk of work in processing and outputting game data. Storage (of all types) tends to do much lower amounts of this type of work, their role is subservient in relation to components like the CPU and GPU.

That isn't to say storage I/O is not important; it definitely is. But by their very nature they are not doing the same volume of workload (let alone type) as other components of the system architecture like the GPU.
 

Exodia

Banned
Sony and Epic can influence each others' projects. Epic aren't like any other game devs, they are game engine devs too.

You do realize that studios are also game engine devs right? Almost every studio use their own game engine created by their own engine developers. And 99% of Sony's revenue comes from them. Less than 1% comes from games made by unreal engine. Most games made on Unreal Engine are by Microsoft's studios. So this logic that Sony will give Epic Games special details and insight and leave out the other companies which they actually get 99% of their revenue from is complete none-sense.

Sweeney certainly says they worked closely for years and calls it a partnership. Years of discussions lead to a fruitful result - the demo. You just simplify it and divide those tweets into two separate entities. It could be that UE5's development influenced Sony's IO too.

Do we know when development of Nanite and Lumen started ?

I already explained that the demo and future next gen specs discussions are two different things to geordiemp geordiemp .

Remember that Epic games had money issues till Fornite BR blew up at the end of 2017. Before that a-lot of project were stalled. A-lot of the top requests from the community weren't being worked on because there weren't team resources to work on them. Developers in the forum and on the developer live-streams would repeatedly say that.

That was until Fortnite BR. Then billions started coming in every month in 2018 . It was a ridiculous amount of money which has allowed Epic games to buy out everything and give out everything for free even paying you to play games.

Lumen development started in earnest in mid-2018/2019 and Nanite also started in earnest 2019.

Now I should note that Lumen is a combination of pre-existing features into one with improvements of-course.
Major Lighting development began in mid 2018. There were multiple teams staffed with dozens of people: Lightmass Team, Ray tracing team,etc
One of the first pickup was the guy who write the code for multi bounce sky lighting and GPU lightmass for the UE community. Then Epic hired him.

Lot's of activity around Lightmass these days. I think you're going to like where we're headed. Bigger. Just want to say that we've staffed up a team just on Lightmass and you'd be pretty impressed by the caliber of people on that team. I'm sure we'll reveal more when the time is right. Just wanted you to know that this is now a "thing". RTX efforts are separate from what I'm talking about. Both are happening. You mean how many months? Honestly don't know, the team needs to spend months just making a plan. We've been working with them to define what is needed from the enterprise side of things (architecture, product visualization, non-game workflows). They are in requirements gathering mode and talking to various customers. This isn't the sort of thing you want them to rush... Luoshuang (Yujiang Xang) is also part of the team now, together with more great folks that joined the team recently. As Ken said we have staffed up a team with a strong background on global illumination techniques and we are working very hard to achieve great things soon! there are plans to replace existing Lightmass underway.




Nanite team development on the other hand started in 2019. Nanite development initially started in 2017 by the single person who created and have been trying to get the tech to work for over a decade. He started focusing on it full time in 2017.

But the actual nanite team wasn't staffed till 2019. Every person who was in the nanite team or took part in its development was hired in 2019 or early 2020.
Again all these things wouldn't be possible without Fortnite money.








 
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I'm assuming you're smart enough to understand this. There's at least a 2 TFLOPS difference between the two machines. Using percentage as a metric simply to make the gap seem smaller is stupid. At the end of the day its still 2 whole TFLOPS which is a bigger difference than the start of this Gen.

What's so hard to understand about this?
I'm assuming YOU'RE NOT smart enough to understand this. Using just the numbers as a metric simply to make the gap seem LARGER is STUPID. At the end of the day 30% is a larger gap than 15%, no matter how large the numbers are, it could .5 versus 50TF it does NOT MATTER if the relative performance is closer in gap.

Math DOES NOT LIE. You're just being a big fat dummy and choosing the number because that fits your narrative. In this instance you're ACTUALLY the one trying to fudge the numbers. :messenger_grinning_smiling: Please, Please tell me this was just a troll response. OMG if that is a genuine response, please don't reply back to me. I can't have a conversation with you.
 

geordiemp

Member
You do realize that studios are also game engine devs right? Almost every studio use their own game engine created by their own engine developers. And 99% of Sony's revenue comes from them. Less than 1% comes from games made by unreal engine. Most games made on Unreal Engine are by Microsoft's studios. So this logic that Sony will give Epic Games special details and insight and leave out the other companies which they actually get 99% of their revenue from is complete none-sense.



I already explained that the demo and future next gen specs discussions are two different things to geordiemp geordiemp .

Remember that Epic games had money issues till Fornite BR blew up at the end of 2017. Before that a-lot of project were stalled. A-lot of the top requests from the community weren't being worked on because there weren't team resources to work on them. Developers in the forum and on the developer live-streams would repeatedly say that.

That was until Fortnite BR. Then billions started coming in every month in 2018 . It was a ridiculous amount of money which has allowed Epic games to buy out everything and give out everything for free even paying you to play games.

Lumen development started in earnest in mid-2018/2019 and Nanite also started in earnest 2019.

Now I should note that Lumen is a combination of pre-existing features into one with improvements of-course.
Major Lighting development began in mid 2018. There were multiple teams staffed with dozens of people: Lightmass Team, Ray tracing team,etc
One of the first pickup was the guy who write the code for multi bounce sky lighting and GPU lightmass for the UE community. Then Epic hired him.






Nanite team development on the other hand started in 2019. Nanite development initially started in 2017 by the single person who created and have been trying to get the tech to work for over a decade. He started focusing on it full time in 2017.

But the actual nanite team wasn't staffed till 2019. Every person who was in the nanite team or took part in its development was hired in 2019 or early 2020.
Again all these things wouldn't be possible without Fortnite money.










Yes I know the UE5 tech started to gather pace in 2018.



That is not mutually exclusive to Sony talking with Epic for 3,4 or 5 years on advanced graphics and fast IO more than just what do you fancy next gen by the way.

My point is that Sony have LIKELY been focussed for a while on Fast IO, more than just a year or 2.

This is no accident or set of lucky circumstances in my view.

My other point is other engines will also find ways of leveraging the fast IO.

Your view apprears to be Sony and Epic luckily walked into each other 6 months ago and it was coincidental Ps5 has crazy good IO.
 
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Leyasu

Banned
God knows what Sony have cooked up, as Ps5 is not a normal console.
lol

Imagine if they paired the power of the coud and the ps5 ssd.. Skynet would probably be born.

All that processing power would now have the I/O of "not a normal console" to feed the chips that would make the brains of the robots!! Scary stuff lol
 
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geordiemp

Member

The things you cannot do on any other platform ?

Cant be SSD speed as SSD will go to 7 GBs soon enough which means it would not be impossible to do same functions with fst SSD....

To me that implies latency ....ps5 IO is capable of streaming within frame time high quality assets and others have too much latency to do this in the ms required.

If not what else could it be ? Answers on a post card !
 
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We know they both have 64 rops as number of rops is dictated by the number of shader array (and both have 4). But PS5 has other parts about 20% stronger than XSX, basically everything that is not in the CUs as both should have the same number of (because again those are determined by the number of shader array, not the number of CUs, and we know XSX has 2 Shader Engines and 4 shader arrays):

- Geometry processor
- Primitive units
- Graphics command processor
- Rasterizer
- Rops
- ACEs (Async Compute Engines)
- The new L1 cache (compared to GCN)


Navi-Slide-2.jpg

You know that everything on the XSX APU is custom right?

Every RDNA GPU has a geometry engine for example...

So not sure where you get the idea that XSX is JUST beefier CUs... but we will find out soon enough about each.

I think the XSX APU is quite a bit larger than the PS5 APU but I do t have definitive data regarding the two.

Cheers.
 

Exodia

Banned
Yes I know the UE5 tech started to gather pace in 2018.



That is not mutually exclusive to Sony talking with Epic for 3,4 or 5 years on advanced graphics and fast IO more than just what do you fancy next gen by the way.

My point is that Sony have LIKELY been focussed for a while on Fast IO, more than just a year or 2.

This is no accident or set of lucky circumstances in my view.

My other point is other engines will also find ways of leveraging the fast IO.

Your view apprears to be Sony and Epic luckily walked into each other 6 months ago and it was coincidental Ps5 has crazy good IO.


Sorry I deal with independently verifiable facts not misinformation.

Every person who was in the nanite team or took part in its development was hired in 2019 or early 2020. Period.

The work on the I/O was also started in 2019.

Again I deal in independent verifiable facts not misinformation like you.
 
Yeah except you are counting 3 GB that will never be used for games on the XBox SX, so you calculated it wrong!

Im sorry Bryank... im not sure what you mean.

2.5 "slow ram" for CPU im sure this isn't static
10 GB fast ram dedicated for the GPU
3.5 GB of slow ram for everything else including for additional game data .

These have been stated before ans the allocations can be apportioned in any way.

Cheers
 
3GB of SX Ram is dedicated to OS.
So, in fact...

(10*560 + 3*336) = 6608 VS 16*448 = 7168

I find it particularly pathetic that you try to solve for a single GB or RAM. Why try to spin this?
The facts are that PS5 has more Ram than Series X by about 8%.

We are NOT talking the bandwidth of one unit, we are talking total bandwidth of all the ram.

If you can't understand or are arguing in bad faith, that is on you.

Understand @longdi & T Trueblakjedi ?

What? Game data includes texture, logic, ai, animation, geometry.

The OS allocation is the 2.5 GB section. - that's what is usually stated to be the CPU component.

The remaining 3.5 GB is for anything else that doesn't require High bandwidth access.

So please try to adjust your perspective on what is what.
 

Exodia

Banned
3GB of SX Ram is dedicated to OS.
So, in fact...

(10*560 + 3*336) = 6608 VS 16*448 = 7168

I find it particularly pathetic that you try to solve for a single GB or RAM. Why try to spin this?
The facts are that PS5 has more Ram than Series X by about 8%.

We are NOT talking the bandwidth of one unit, we are talking total bandwidth of all the ram.

If you can't understand or are arguing in bad faith, that is on you.

Understand @longdi & T Trueblakjedi ?

No 2.5 GB of memory will be dedicated to the OS for both next gen consoles. The same was the case last gen for both the PS4 and XO.
 
Your probably right except i think unreal 5 games will run best on the ps5. It is only platform to get major parts getting rewritten and optimized. Epic is really putting a full press to get those Sony games on the epic store. What better way than to make the PS5 version the only one with special optimizations and months and months of extra work. Give the pc and other platforms generic code then go on Twitter 2 years a head of time to make excused why it won't perform well outside of the PS5.

I actually disagree here. When explaining the tech, the lead designer epic specifically said that their implementations were based on accelerating graphical capabilities where possible and that they would use the HW where it was more advantageous.

So while most of the lighting engine was software based, they leveraged the primitive shader units in PS5 where necessary.

XsX has some HW capabilities that may be useful or leveragable for UE5 in many cases so I think the assumption you are making is unprovable at best.
 

Lethal01

Member
At least my speculation is based on an understanding of this tech. Again, the SSD I/O delta (as defined through the paper data so far, rather than what we've really seen in practice in next-gen games) is not enough to essentially close a graphical rendering gap.

I'm not saying the SSD will do the raytacing calculations for the gpu or that it will process the sound for the cpu.

Although technically, I suppose if you can drastically lower your vram usage once you can rely on on being able to load a certain amount of data per frame. You could use the now free vram on the GPU to raise the quality of may effect including shadow quality and ray-tracing. So we will have to see if that "I'm the GPU now" meme actually ends up holding some weight

Point is speculation based on understanding the tech is still just speculation, Devs are speculating with more information than you and tons of this speculation will be wrong, you need real testing to find out what you are now capable of.

You say the SSD is subservient to the GPU. But the GPU is often just as subservient to the SSD. The longer the GPU has to wait to use data that isn't in memory the less options we have. The SSD may not be actively doing things as often but it's often just as big of a factor in whether you can achieve the art you want or not. A slower SSD could be exactly what prevents you from doing an extremely dynamic set piece with the quality of assets that you desire.
 

jimbojim

Banned
Not really. They achieved it by basically cutting down power of chip. Xbox GPU will be faster than it and probably run cooler. What they achieved though is that they got more performance per dollar. Aka they opted out for cheap GPU but they OCit to hell to keep price competetive.

Imho there will be about 100$ difference between PS5 and Xbox4.



Considering Xbox4 is more powerful... So from day 1 and they could run it at better frame-rate with extra effects.

XSX is stronger, but not that stronger. You know that CPU difference is 3% and 18% stronger GPU will pushed res up to between 1550-1600p. Or maybe you want to XSX version to be at 1440p ( like PS5 demo ) with extra effects
 

Hobbygaming

has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
Thats your take = its nothing special, just asking epic what do you want ? Thats your take.

The actual words from the gamespot interview, Tim sweeny
This bodes well for PS5 graphics. They knew there had to be a fundamental shift in designing the hardware to get the leap in visuals that they wanted to achieve

Not just the usual improvements to GPU, CPU, ram and bandwidth that a new generation brings
 
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