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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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OK fair enough I wasn't around the forum during that discussion. The SRAM on SoC can be used as it is described here, if indeed the distinction between 'a' and 'the' actually means what you postulated it means, it can be a homogenous pool across PCIe lanes that acts as security check and hazard check if they are set up as concurrent clones of each other.


The part emphasized might be correct in some way like making sure the memory pointers truly points to the same assets all around the homogenous memory pool but you are underestimating 4 lanes of PCIe BW if the destination is system RAM pool, which means the loading of assets for to be used by the GPU for streaming purposes; however, what I was mainly talking about was calculations done right on the SoC for example sound occlusion and necessary ray march for it and also BVH traversal and it's path tracing, which are all BW hungry and SRAM that is embedded on SoC itself is the perfect fit for it. These all depend on the size of each SRAM which we don't know anything about right now, and if they are concurrently updated for checking in reasons, and if they can be used for multiple and separate purposes so we are also not sure if one of it is general purpose or not, it is all speculation at this point. The patent can be read as you said but 'a' and 'the' distinction didn't convince me enough if it is correct or if it is the only use case.

We're both just blue-balled and speculating on cool hardware in exactly the right place to do it.
I think it's clear from the patent what the pool of IO complex SRAM is used for, but that's not to say that's only what it's used for.
I only mentioned PCIe bandwidth in my extreme example of the decompressor using the flash controller's SRAM for its read buffer, because then according to the rest of the patent the data path would go something like this Flash->Controller SRAM->Kernel RAM->Controller SRAM->Decompressor->User RAM. It seems like a nonsensical use of controller SRAM and the PCIe interface separating the decompressor and controller SRAM.
The patent says data from the SSD streams into kernel space system memory before being subject to various checks and decompressing into user space system memory at higher effective bandwidth due to decompression.
It mentions a use of SRAM to do those decompression and check-in tasks and does so while not referring to it as "the SRAM (#)" as the controller SRAM is always referred to as.

It also just makes sense in the context of Cerny's slide where the SRAM is diagrammatically ring-fenced in with the sub-CPU an accelerator mentioned i the patent. It also makes sense that if SRAM is being used as an input buffer for the decompressor, and for the sub-CPU to perform decryption and check-in, it would be close and available to them on the same chip.
That's what I make of it all, anyway.
The entire point of that complex is that it's completely hands off for the actual CPU. The CPU and sub-CPU share address space for system memory as required, but there's no mention or provision for the main CPU being able to address the SRAM as far as I could tell.

I personally think from what's written in the patent and from how it was shown in Cerny's slide, the IO Complex SRAM is dedicated to IO and isn't sharing work with the main CPU/GPU. If it was addressable by the CPU/GPU then any time that happened the IO pipeline would stall, and the wording of the patent regarding the SRAM in the IO Complex seems to be entirely about removing any delay or latency in this middle part of the IO pipeline.
 

Neo Blaster

Member
Personally hope native 4K goes away and smart upscaling techniques become universal. That saved power would be better used for higher fidelity compositions.

Also regarding scaling and game development, starting high and scaling down is only applicable to asset quality. Core gameplay and more advanced uses of computing power are most definitely bottom up.
Not just resolution, but after watching what could be done with Lumen's GI, I hope they don't sacrifice performance just for the sake of using RT.
 

Ar¢tos

Member
I agree, Lockart is not a problem if it has same CPU / same SSD and IO it will not hold anything back.

Streaming higher assets to XSX and PC for 4k will be more demanding, especially each frame at 60 FPS.
It is kinda of a problem because the gpu is not the same. The moment you have scale something down for another platform, you need to do the WHOLE optimization process again.
I can't imagine 3rd party devs doing cross gen games being very happy about this.
They have to optimise for X1, X1S, X1X, XSX, XSS, PS4, Ps4pro and PS5.
The more platforms, the less time/budget they have to dedicate to the optimisation of each one of them.
 

geordiemp

Member
It is kinda of a problem because the gpu is not the same. The moment you have scale something down for another platform, you need to do the WHOLE optimization process again.
I can't imagine 3rd party devs doing cross gen games being very happy about this.
They have to optimise for X1, X1S, X1X, XSX, XSS, PS4, Ps4pro and PS5.
The more platforms, the less time/budget they have to dedicate to the optimisation of each one of them.

Happens every generation....but I agree previous generations like ps3 and 360 were just cut off straight away.
 
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Imagine the absolute fucking meltdown that would occur if Lockhart was actually revealed to be a more premium and expensive "Pro" version of Series X with even more chug under the fan to capture the enthusiast market early on. XSX slightly cheaper than PS5, Lockhart an extra $150 more. Imagine the scenes. It would be play of the century by Microsoft.
 
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Three Jackdaws

Unconfirmed Member
Most games on ps4 pro from sony lately had a performance and graphics mode option. Long may it continue.
I don’t like fiddling with the Resolution/FPS +others options, only because I get too OCD and lose my focus on the game. The games should have a default setting right? Or setting which will be recommended by developers, that would be cool.
 

Neo Blaster

Member
As long as Lockhart gets the same CPU and SSD as the XSeX, I see no problem. Then the games are only screwed down graphically, but not held back in the general structure.
Yep, resolution and framerate are easily scalable, as we've seen for decades on PC, but there's no going around game design and storage speed without either making different versions or cutting features down.
 
I don’t like fiddling with the Resolution/FPS +others options, only because I get too OCD and lose my focus on the game. The games should have a default setting right? Or setting which will be recommended by developers, that would be cool.

I'd be happy with two developer recommended presets, like 30 FPS & 60 FPS. Basically something like:

A) Here's how good we can make the game look when we spend 33ms drawing a frame (quality)
B) Here's how good we can make the game look when we spend 16ms drawing a frame (performance)

You got that sometimes with PS4 Pro titles, but I think it would be cool to see in all games on all console hardware.

The problem with that is some games do more than just GPU work during a frame and might need those 33ms to do things related to how the game works or how things are procedurally generated etc, so it could never be enforced on a base console.
 
If they are that stupid, everything will leak for sure.

Yeah, waiting until July would look like this IMO

giphy.gif
 

Developers making Xbox Series X games will learn to address PS5’s SSD advantage, says ex-Xbox lead


Developers working on multiplatform games will find a way to get around Xbox Series X’s relatively slower SSD compared to PS5’s.

Microsoft’s William Stillwell, who currently manages the company’s Mixed Reality program, spent years at Xbox working on backwards compatibility, xCloud, and Xbox platform services.

Stillwell was recently a guest on the Iron Lords Podcast, where he was asked about the PS5’s impressive SSD tech, how faster it is compared to Xbox Series X’s solution, and whether it’ll even matter.

“I’ll say two things with that. One, I understand that it’s a marketing point and a high point – and I think I said in the last podcast we did, I’m really impressed with what they’ve done in the architecture with their drive and I think they’ll be able to do really cool stuff with it,” said Stillwell.

“I also don’t think it’s as impressive over what you’ll be able to do [with Xbox Series X] and so I have high confidence in that team. I will also say – look I reserve the right to wake up smarter tomorrow and someone may prove me wrong and we’ll learn. The one thing I have learned is [to] never underestimate game developers’ [ability] to take advantage of something and work around it, but that works on both sides.

“So the ability of a game developer to look and say, ‘Ok, I am building this game and I wanna have seamless transition with no loading screens on [PS5], but I am also gonna wanna sell on Xbox, what am I gonna do to manage that kinda thing?’

“Like, that will be the tricks and the techniques, so – I am just making this up – maybe there are elevators in the Xbox Series X version and not on the [PS5] version. I don’t know yet how they’re gonna address it, but they’ll learn to address it and they will figure out ways to work around it.”
 

Vae_Victis

Banned
If violent protests keep dying down as they now seem, there is no reason for Sony to wait until July. Might be at the end of this week, might be in the next.

If nothing else happens, we will probably at least know the date come Friday.
 
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SSfox

Member
It's the time and still Sony is: "................................................................................................"

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Ok so no PS event before a while, at least not this week

May the Leakers save US!!!

Leakers, it's your time to shine
XcZhDsZ.jpg
 
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Rikkori

Member
Yeah indeed, but then again I would be surprised if Lockhart has the same CPU and SSD. Is the GPU by far the biggest cost of a console? Because if they want to be able to sell it for $300, which I think would be the sweetspot, I think they might need some other stuff cut back too. But I don't really know much about each components cost.

Exactly. Everything will be 'downgraded' to some extent. The SOC is absolutely not the majority of the cost.


img_2013.png
 
Yep, resolution and framerate are easily scalable, as we've seen for decades on PC, but there's no going around game design and storage speed without either making different versions or cutting features down.

It's just something that's not really been relevant to how games are made so most people can't wrap their heads around it.
Cartridge generation consoles had extremely quick IO, but it was also extremely limited in size. Fast loading of small and sparsely detailed worlds, limited audio etc.

Disc generation consoles had extremely slow IO, but had a huge pool of memory to use compared to cartridge. The dawn of world getting bigger and more detailed with limited streaming ability and lots of tricks and big compromises required.

HDD based consoles hard marginally faster IO, and things had pretty much entirely moved over to streaming larger detailed worlds, but still with lots of tricks and compromises required, as seen in the Spider-Man GDC talk.

SSD based consoles have entire orders of magnitude faster IO (40-100x), and now we have to wait to see what that does to game design, or try and predict it. This is as next-gen a leap as it was going from cartridge to disc for how it will affect game design over the next 7 years. It's the fusion of cartridge games and disc games. I'm incredibly excited to see what we get a couple of years from now.

A more powerful cartridge console made what was there incrementally better and nicer to look at, but didn't unfold entirely new dimensions like the original jump to PlayStation etc did. N64 had much faster access to its assets and hugely faster loading, but it just couldn't deliver the same new experiences that PlayStation did with bigger games.

A more powerful disc/HDD console is the same deal. Same basic game design now looking better than it ever has.

SSDs have been around for a long time on PC but nobody has assumed they're the standard when creating game engines or designing game concepts. NVMe SSDs are an even smaller part of that platform. 8-9Gb/s of typical game data in a pipeline streamlined from NAND chip to GPU cache has never ever been seen before, and nobody has made anything with that in mind before. And soon it won't be some niche thing, but a common and ubiquitous platform sold by the million.
It really can unfold a whole new paradigm in game design, and anyone thinking it just allows for faster loading is likely as short-sighted as someone that thought PlayStation's CD games just basically means better music and sound quality, and more/longer cut-scenes because all that matters is triangles, because the entire concept of streaming in a game-world as you walk into it to basically make the world as detailed and as big as you want just wasn't in anyone's heads back then.

We've seen glimpses of the kind of thing people hadn't really thought about with the IO heavy Nanite. Before the UE5 reveal we were just comparing load times as naively as someone saying disc games just means better music etc.
What else will be be looking back on years from now where this generation was the start of this whole new way of doing things? Game developers and game engine studios are the ones saying this is revolutionary on their own private social media outlets, not hype building journalists trying to analyse the hardware.
I'm pumped as to what as of now is just a dream in some developers head being played around with and prototyped on some dev-kit.
 

hemo memo

Gold Member
If violent protests keep dying down as they now seem, there is no reason for Sony to wait until July. Might be at the end of this week, might be in the next.

If nothing else happens, we will probably at least know the date come Friday.

If it’s not this week then it’ll be on July because TLoU2 release and other events starting next week.
 

Naddy

Banned

This doesn't make any sense. Developers can not and will not for multiplatform games, build their games around a single SSD. This is not how it works at all.
I mean, think about it, if the developers would built their multiplatform games around the PS5 SSD, they would have to basically create two version of a game.

One Version for PS5 and one version for XSX and PCs with SSD.

Would this - from economic point of view- feasible?
I think not, we are not going to see anything like this. I think what we will see is the following:

Developers will build their games around the PC SSD and use as the lowest common denominator and then XSX and PS5 will benefit from shorter loading times compared to PC, but other than that, it won't be different to PC.
It simply isn't feasible at all, developing games is already super expensive and developing a game version for PS5 and one for XSX/PC would make it even more expensive.
Of course, this doesn't apply to CPU and GPU.

With CPU and GPU it's very easy to scale up and down, we have seen this in current gen and on PC, where we have different modes and settings, e.g. lower or higher FPS/Resolution. This is super easy and doesn't take any resources from the developers, the developer doesn't have to create different versions of a game.
 
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Three Jackdaws

Unconfirmed Member
Crazy how Playstation have not tweeted anything since the delay announcement, they really did stick to their guns because they usually tweet like 5-6 times a day lol safe to assume the next tweet will be the announcement for the PS5 event
 

Shmunter

Member
This doesn't make any sense. Developers can not and will not for multiplatform games, build their games around a single SSD. This is not how it works at all.
I mean, think about it, if the developers would built their multiplatform games around the PS5 SSD, they would have to basically create two version of a game.

One Version for PS5 and one version for XSX and PCs with SSD.

Would this - from economic point of view- feasible?
I think not, we are not going to see anything like this. I think what we will see is the following:

Developers will build their games around the PC SSD and use as the lowest common denominator and then XSX and PS5 will benefit from shorter loading times compared to PC, but other than that, it won't be different to PC.
It simply isn't feasible at all, developing games is already super expensive and developing a game version for PS5 and one for XSX/PC would make it even more expensive.
Of course, this doesn't apply to CPU and GPU.

With CPU and GPU it's very easy to scale up and down, we have seen this in current gen and on PC, where we have different modes and settings, e.g. lower or higher FPS/Resolution. This is super easy and doesn't take any resources from the developers, the developer doesn't have to create different versions of a game.
Probably true for most situations. But there is also a chance of more voluntary 3rd party PS5 exclusives. If touted ease of development is very attractive combined with large install base as is expected from the brand, Sony may be in a very good position.

Pure speculation.
 

Msamy

Member
Playstation news usually comes late at night for us in europe, the last few times we've gotten news it has been +21.00 in europe so 4-5 hours more
You guys have big dreams, mark my words there will be nothing until August or later , in the best case scenario they will announce ps5 event in late July , then delayed it due to whatever reasons, everyday in last few months indicates that Sony don't have any marketing plan at all , or have unsolved problems until now
 

Ar¢tos

Member
I was looking at the Dell G5 15 SE reviews, they say smartshift can be disabled, but I couldnt find a comparison of performance with it on and off.
It would be interesting so we could try to predict the impact it has for ps5. At least the reviews said performance was good, but runs hot, with ps5 cooling system this shouldn't be an issue.
 
Start with all the bells and whistles, and then scale it down for weaker devices.
I am partially agree with you in the other topic but that I quote is actually lied if was true all our games will dev to target a rtx 2080 TI.

Also exists many practical reason of why that is not possible what are you talking about ?
 

Neo Blaster

Member
Crazy how Playstation have not tweeted anything since the delay announcement, they really did stick to their guns because they usually tweet like 5-6 times a day lol safe to assume the next tweet will be the announcement for the PS5 event
I know they said they'd 'let other voices take precedence', but what would they tweet besides the new date? Anything else would receive such a backlash that it's probably best to keep silent.
 
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Uzupedro

Member
I think it was stupid of him to use the example of the elevator, very likely to be the worst case scenario on a multiplatform, but that's what will appear in the headlines
 

2ndKrueger

Neo Member
You guys have big dreams, mark my words there will be nothing until August or later , in the best case scenario they will announce ps5 event in late July , then delayed it due to whatever reasons, everyday in last few months indicates that Sony don't have any marketing plan at all , or have unsolved problems until now

erhm, im pretty sure sony has an entire marketing plan ready to go - but both the corona virus and the george floyd situation has halted it. And its just not Sony that's delaying. :-D
 

Gamernyc78

Banned
So many sources, so little time lol 😂 😂 😂

At this point I hope all their shit leaks. No excuse for not rescheduling and letting us know. Moving the date I understand but this unnecessary wait definitely not.
 
Sony hasn't sold me on a $500 console yet. I am more likely to wait for 1 to 2 years and then upgrade my launch PS4 . Sony needs to show me games at launch which justify the early investment in the PS5/SDD. The UE5 demo was great but UE5 will not be launched until next year so we likely won't see a title which uses it for a year or more later. I also wasn't really happy with the whole mid-gen refresh they did last gen. So if there is a chance of another one this gen I may just wait until the refresh to buy in . Maybe the reveal will swing me over... lets see.
I'll tell you what, waiting for the ps5 pro is for suckers. You know they are surely releasing a ps6 just a few years later right? I hear it will be so much better than the 5 and the pro... you should totally wait for it ;)
 
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