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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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ToadMan

ToadMan

Member
Handy Fake said:
I don't even think there needs to be a bilateral agreement drawn up does there? It's just like trading in stocks and shares, if they're available you get the go ahead from your own comapny and buy them up.

Of course, I got all of my information from the film Trading Places and that only goes as far as pork bellies, frozen orange juice and Jamie Lee Curtis's tits.
Click to expand...

If I understood correctly Epic have been drumming up funds by offering stock - they had a capital raiser for 750m but Sony’s deal was separate to that although occurring at the same time.

So epic have decided to obtain more capital by issuing shares which can have a negative impact in some cases amongst share holders but usually it’s a positive thing.

Epic may have had to decide if they wanted to issue more shares for Sony. But having done so, I assume they extended them the same terms as the 750 mil fund raiser they already had in place.

I also assume they have a plan what to do with that money. They’ve raised about 1.2 billion since December according to Bloomberg.

Soooo either they’re investing in something or getting extra money to cover existing costs on something. I presume Sony are informed of what that is having stumped up the cash.

Maybe they want to make the UE5 demo into a full game....heh
 
Killer Sakoman

Killer Sakoman

Member
SatansReverence said:
Hell, I'm still waiting for my system to throttle, because apparently, it's impossible to hit the GPU and CPU without it happening!

13b0202ebb8b50f5573f5f9ad913f648.png
Click to expand...
You guys will be disappointed as fuck when systems release and DF videos come up.
 
Andodalf

Andodalf

Banned
SgtCaffran said:
It really wouldn't be such a problem if there was actual conversation instead of trolling. It's clear why the band were there in the first place....
Click to expand...

Who decides what is trolling? People legit got dog piled and called trolls for saying PS5 would be weaker than XSX even after the github leak and 12 TF confirmation.
 
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SgtCaffran

SgtCaffran

Member
Andodalf said:
Who decides what is trolling? People legit got dog piled and called trolls for saying PS5 would be weaker than XSX even after the github leak and 12 TF confirmation.
Click to expand...
Just look at this topic during the past week... The trolling is so obvious. You could make the point that Sony was over represented the last few months but at least there were actual technical discussions. Conversation where people were trying to understand how far Sony has gone to remove bottlenecks.

It's so easy to say that the Xbox is better because 12>10.23 but the TF number is so misunderstood and not representative of game performance. It's maybe 5 percent of the full picture. The trolls take this number and make it almost 100% and then want to see people agree because.... They don't like Sony/PS5?
 
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SlimySnake

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
HeisenbergFX4 said:
It was how they delivered it why people were called trolls.

Not a single person here called me a troll for saying from day 1 the XsX would be more powerful.
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I remember this. Also matt on era said the xsx world be more powerful and no one cancelled him.

Of course the moment he opened his mouth about the ssd, they all turned on him and Colbert got himself perma'd for harassing him.
 
LED Guy?

LED Guy?

Banned
Xplainin said:
Nah. Let's be real here.
For whatever reason Sony ended up with a 36 CU GPU. Be that because of back compat or they were looking at launching in 2019.
Because of this they found themselves with a console that was behind the XSX in power levels, and so we're only left with increasing clocks to close the power gap. That led to other issues they needed to solve such as thermal and power.

Nobody in their right mind thinks that Sony went in to this gen with the goal of using variable clocks from the outset.

I think Sony have done a good job to get to where they have.
Click to expand...
All of what you wrote was fairy tales and fake assumptions, EVEN if they had their GPU at 9.2 TF like the stated GitHub leak (that was robbed by an Xbox fanboy whose name is Hmqgg) and then posted it to GitHub (it’s why we’ve been hearing since that Reddit leak in January 2019 about Lockhart being 4+ TF, PS5 being 8 TF (at that time according to a leaked benchmark) and XSX 12 TF, but as I was saying EVEN if Sony has their GPU at 9.2 TF, the gap between 9.2 TF and XSX’s 12 TF is still way smaller than the gap between PS4 & XB1 this generation, it’s just a 25% gap, PS4/XB1 was around 40% gap.

So... Sony ain’t scared & haven’t felt any type of way, but now the gap between 10.3 TF & 12 TF is even smaller, it’s just a 16% gap, with an SSD that’s more than twice as fast making developers make worlds and assets that can’t be done on XSX, so yeah, what you posted was fairy tales.

Remember, it’s not about power, it’s about the games and the variety of experiences that people wanna get, if they were power hungry, they’ll flock to PC gaming with RTX 3080 Ti with Ryzen 9 3950X CPU and 32 GB RAM, but even in the PC space it isn’t like that at all, people care about the games mostly, not power.
 
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Darius87

Darius87

Member
Dodkrake said:
For those that don't understand simple concepts such as efficiency (vs total available power), this post, which has been here before, illustrates it very well. Please pardon me for sharing an ERA post.

www.resetera.com

PlayStation 5 System Architecture Deep Dive |OT| Secret Agent Cerny

Right. Like I even know when the fans kick in on my beeefy ass work laptop that the CPU usage hitting 100% is only in certain instances, same for GPU. so I just don’t understand this concern that it won’t give the exact power when needed in 90% of. Scenarios.
www.resetera.com www.resetera.com
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i read this while ago best explanation for PS5 variable clocks so far.
but in theory if sony would throttle GPU clocks even more let's say not couple % but like 5% - 10% which is around 100Mhz - 200Mhz when power draw is peaking and improve GPU control unit(internal clock) for logic not to fail they could raise PS5 clocks even more basically more you throttle the higher you can clock and that's = more compute for common GPU tasks 5%-10% throttling could land PS5 at around 11 Tflops, there's many variables of course like cooling, other components... or maybe it would be possible to adjust cap frequency through PS5 FW?
Cerny said PS5 cooling solution allows them to raise clocks even higher then 2.23Ghz but logic fails.
 
Shmunter

Shmunter

Member
Darius87 said:
i read this while ago best explanation for PS5 variable clocks so far.
but in theory if sony would throttle GPU clocks even more let's say not couple % but like 5% - 10% which is around 100Mhz - 200Mhz when power draw is peaking and improve GPU control unit(internal clock) for logic not to fail they could raise PS5 clocks even more basically more you throttle the higher you can clock and that's = more compute for common GPU tasks 5%-10% throttling could land PS5 at around 11 Tflops, there's many variables of course like cooling, other components... or maybe it would be possible to adjust cap frequency through PS5 FW?
Cerny said PS5 cooling solution allows them to raise clocks even higher then 2.23Ghz but logic fails.
Click to expand...
Electrons start jumping across the lanes at some point when moving too fast, seemingly unrelated to heat. Not sure how to defeat physical limits like this. Logically not going to a smaller a nm, instead of going 5nm, remaining at 7nm may be better as there is more physical room and distance to accomodate those electrons? No idea.
 
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saintjules

saintjules

Member
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Darius87

Darius87

Member
Shmunter said:
Electrons start jumping across the lanes at some point when moving too fast, seemingly unrelated to heat. Not sure how to defeat physical limits like this. Logically not going to a smaller a nm, instead of going 5nm, remaining at 7nm may be better as there is more physical room and distance to accomodate those electrons? No idea.
Click to expand...
CPU's already overclocks at 5Ghz i don't think it's physical problem maybe it's a 7nm node limit or material or something like that? i just want to know that's if it fails because of PS5 control unit can't handle such speeds.
 
splattered

splattered

Member
HeisenbergFX4 said:
It was how they delivered it why people were called trolls.

Not a single person here called me a troll for saying from day 1 the XsX would be more powerful.
Click to expand...

Well to be fair you are considered a vetted insider, of course you aren't going to get dog piled.

I agree that it was largely in how the "trolling" was presented in every case but certain people enjoy a bit of immunity if they have been vetted on here.

Not saying that's a bad thing or that you should have been treated harshly - i think you are a nice person that contributes more positives than negatives to these discussions and appreciate your input wherever i see it whether it's for a system i prefer or not.
 
Sinthor

Sinthor

Gold Member
bhunachicken said:
I don't know about anyone else here, but China scares the shit out of me. The CCP is ... I hate to say "evil", but it's the best I can come up with. I'm refusing to use things like Zoom, TikTok, Huawei, etc., and you can be damn sure I won't ever be buying a game made by Tencent.

I mean, for fuck's sake, the CCP has threatened the UK against not using Huawei's technology in their 5G services. If that doesn't tell you everything you need to know, I don't know what will.
Click to expand...

Yep, I'm with you there. Being in cyber security we are seeing a LOT coming from China...I won't get into details here. Wont' get political or anything either, but they are definitely flexing their muscle thru companies, getting Hollywood movies edited or changed, etc. Same for games, and that doesn't even cover their 'work camps' for religious minorities.

Anyway, enough said..dont' want to derail. I'm just hoping that the game companies avoid getting swallowed up by CCP entities.
 
Sinthor

Sinthor

Gold Member
Delpij said:
This is a semantics play.

Even in extremely fast-paced business environments (e.g. messianic startups like Facebook, where Zuckerberg can purchase Instagram on a whim without board consent), you are going to have a hard time closing such a sizeable deal so fast. Especially in the middle of a multi-faceted, global crisis.
What most likely happened is there were months of negotiation before the presentation, that ultimately led to a technical closing and settlement after the presentation.
Click to expand...
Ok, so while you have no evidence or ANY fact to back you up, since you don't like the content and statements, we should all just assume that the CEO of a publicly traded company is just continually lying in what he says, right?

Not gonna happen.
 
R

raul3d

Member
Darius87 said:
CPU's already overclocks at 5Ghz i don't think it's physical problem maybe it's a 7nm node limit or material or something like that? i just want to know that's if it fails because of PS5 control unit can't handle such speeds.
Click to expand...
The maximum frequency is given by the chip design. Usually smaller nodes do clock less high than larger nodes, but you could always change your chip design if particularly high clocks are important to it.

I assume the 2,23Ghz is an RDNA2 limitation, but we would have to see the PC GPU clocks to know for sure.

Dodkrake said:
For those that don't understand simple concepts such as efficiency (vs total available power), this post, which has been here before, illustrates it very well. Please pardon me for sharing an ERA post.

www.resetera.com

PlayStation 5 System Architecture Deep Dive |OT| Secret Agent Cerny

Right. Like I even know when the fans kick in on my beeefy ass work laptop that the CPU usage hitting 100% is only in certain instances, same for GPU. so I just don’t understand this concern that it won’t give the exact power when needed in 90% of. Scenarios.
www.resetera.com www.resetera.com
Click to expand...
You know that the "efficiency" the post is talking about is the efficiency from the PSU? It is not some frequency efficiency ranges from a chip or what not..
 
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R

Redlight

Member
ToadMan said:
I think you need to be a lot clearer about your meaning if you're going to use this argument..

You are thinking only in tflops and concluding those posts you quoted previously are factually incorrect. Nevermind that tflops aren't a measurement of performance - they're a prediction of performance of a subsection of a system. Like all predictions, they're not always entirely accurate.

Setting that aside, I don't think anyone argues that others parts of the PS5 architecture are indeed more performant that the xsex - the SSD is the obvious one and this is a measurement, not a prediction therefore it carries more weight as a metric.

Beyond that there are other numbers that can be compared and would show the PS5 to be "better" if such simplistic comparisons were to be made.

The argument is that choosing a single number referring to a single component of a complex system isn't a valid way to compare and judge performance of the system as a whole particularly when those numbers are based on notional performance rather than achieved performance.

In the same way as you are loose with your definitions, others have become loose with theirs and that's why you managed to quote so many.

It's not surprising accuracy suffers when a lot of people in this thread aren't interested in "speculation or analysis" - they actually want confirmation of their own bias and a simple “one number beats all” metric because it's simple to understand.
Click to expand...

Then let's be very clear, shall we?

The suggestion was that no-one in this thread had claimed that the PS5 would outperform Series X.

That's simply not true. I provided examples.

Thanks for the attempt to completely redefine the original claim, but you've left it a little late.
 
R

Redlight

Member
SSfox said:
Dude wtf am i reading... Xbox has less than 2 TF more than PS5 with slower clocks, less than half speed of SSD and some are acting like the gap between XSX and PS5 is same as between Atari 2600 and Game Cube... just... ROFL
Click to expand...
I don't think the difference will be all that large, though I think it's clear that the Series X has a power advantage.

That said, I've seen claims, particularly in this thread, suggesting that Sony's 'revolutionary design' will in fact make it more performant than the Series X.

I haven't seen many people claiming that the difference will be night and day in Series X's favour. It's mostly just frustrated people having to re-state the spec differences that have been published and the power advantage that actually exists.
 
R

Redlight

Member
ToadMan said:
No, because a marketing deal involves monetary value being agreed before the service is performed.

What Sony have done is made an investment. They haven't paid Epic for a service, they have bought stock in Epic which is an asset that Sony now owns.

And as Sweeney said in this post, Sony approached Epic after the UE5 demo, not before.
Click to expand...
They had already been working together for months. Any business that has a pending partnership/investment with another business is going to be mindful of any potential arrangement. That mindfulness will be on show in any discussion of their possible partner's products, especially public comments.

As you said, Sony were clearly happy enough after Sweeney's performance to tip some cash in. That should tell you everything you need to know.

Or do you think that Sony just stuck the cash through Epic's letterbox with an anonymous Valentine's Day card? No strings attached?
 
ToadMan

ToadMan

Member
thurnishaleygw said:
1,4% and yeah, Tencent has 40%.
Click to expand...

Tencent did great though - bought 40% for 330million in 2012, and now their 40% is near 7billion!

I had Apple, IBM and MS stock for about it 10 years and they didn’t budge much so I just sold them all and spent the money on wine, women and song.

If only I’d waited a year longer .... I’d have actually made some real money and the women would’ve been better looking 😂

Redlight said:
Then let's be very clear, shall we?

The suggestion was that no-one in this thread had claimed that the PS5 would outperform Series X.

That's simply not true. I provided examples.

Thanks for the attempt to completely redefine the original claim, but you've left it a little late.
Click to expand...

So do you believe that the PS5 SSD outperforms the Xsex SSD?

I assume you’ll say “yes”. So for that metric, PS5 out performs Xsex.

Do you believe Xsex offers more flops than PS5? I assume you’ll say “yes”. So for that particular metric, Xsex should outperform PS5.

So based on these 2 datapoints, does PS5 outperform Xsex or does Xsex outperform PS5?

You see the problem - in each case one could be said to out perform the other, but putting them together, the answer depends on the definition of “performance” and how one weights the metrics.

This thread has speculated about system performance mixed in with component performance.

I don’t believe you’ll find a single quote from anyone saying PS5 has more tflops than Xsex (well since GDC at least) which seems to be the point you are hoping to make.

What you’re posting are quotes from people trying to comprehend/grasp/explain performance at a system level and trying to imply those people were saying 10.3 > 12.1.

That’s clearly disingenuous.
 
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ToadMan

ToadMan

Member
Redlight said:
They had already been working together for months.
Click to expand...

Not months ... years.

And epic have been working with MS for years as they’ve been working with many many third parties for years.

Thats the job of an engine manufacturer -to work with clients whether they are they are dev studios or the provider of hardware on which that engine runs.

Producing a complex piece of software isn’t a solitary effort - it requires collaboration between many. MS and Sony have a relationship going back years - that is the nature of business.

So your point isn’t really significant. Epic work with whoever advances them toward their business goals.
 
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geordiemp

geordiemp

Member
Shmunter said:
Electrons start jumping across the lanes at some point when moving too fast, seemingly unrelated to heat. Not sure how to defeat physical limits like this. Logically not going to a smaller a nm, instead of going 5nm, remaining at 7nm may be better as there is more physical room and distance to accomodate those electrons? No idea.
Click to expand...

But that is not logical because the CPUs run at 3.5 / 3.6 Ghz which is well above the GPU 2.23 Ghz, and lets face it Zen 2 PC parts boost way over 4 GHz already. A Finfet is the same it does not know its in a CPU or GPU part of the APU.

So its not a transistor speed or leakage issue, its likely just as Cerny said, the logic on the way GPU works means you can go higher but the logic does not keep up so its not worth it - performance stops giving.....

Cerny also said the 3.5 Ghz CPU and 2.23 Ghz GPU were equally easy to cool (I cant recall exact words but it was to that effect),, that is the important point (unless of course Cerny is lieing again lol)
 
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Q

quest

Not Banned from OT
Neo Blaster said:
Can Xbox fans just accept 'Smart Delivery' is just a PR word now?
Click to expand...
And can Sony defense team admit they should be promoting this feature more to put pressure on publishers to support it? Sony has the largest user base by a mile if they promoted it half as much as Microsoft there would be pressure on publishers from the public to support it. I don't give a crap if it is PR i want it to be a standard practice like PC. Double dipping for new textures can suck rocks.
 
Shmunter

Shmunter

Member
geordiemp said:
But that is not logical because the CPUs run at 3.5 / 3.6 Ghz which is well above the GPU 2.23 Ghz, and lets face it Zen 2 PC parts boost way over 4 GHz already. A Finfet is the same it does not know its in a CPU or GPU part of the APU.

So its not a transistor speed or leakage issue, its likely just as Cerny said, the logic on the way GPU works means you can go higher but the logic does not keep up so its not worth it - performance stops giving.....

Cerny also said the 3.5 Ghz CPU and 2.23 Ghz GPU were equally easy to cool (I cant recall exact words but it was to that effect),, that is the important point (unless of course Cerny is lieing again lol)
Click to expand...
What Nm size tech are those cpus’s running on?
 
Neo Blaster

Neo Blaster

Member
SlimySnake said:
I remember this. Also matt on era said the xsx world be more powerful and no one cancelled him.

Of course the moment he opened his mouth about the ssd, they all turned on him and Colbert got himself perma'd for harassing him.
Click to expand...
What the trolls are finding really hard to understand is that Sony fans were OK when Heisenberg and Matt said XSX was more powerful, because everyone in the industry were saying that difference was minimal.

Comes deep dive, and we get to know the difference in paper is even smaller than current gen. But somehow, the trolls think this small difference will make XSX run at native 4k 60fps(even 120fps) and PS5 at dynamic 1440p 30fps. And at the same time, they ignore a bigger than 100% delta on I/O speed and say it will make no difference.

Come the first announced next gen games with some specs and we see the same resolution/performance on both, but they still push the narrative of power and downplay PS5 I/O solution.

And Sony fans are the delusional ones...

I can hardly wait for DF analysis, where the trolls can brag about one more leaf in the distance advantage.
 
Darklor01

Darklor01

Might need to stop sniffing glue
whoever81 said:
Oh boy...This thread has become almost unreadable for me. Aren't you bored with the same bullshit comparisons and speculations? 🤷‍♀️
Click to expand...

Nah, I either read and learn some tidbit or tech stuff now and then, or get amused by how many ways an item can be looked at from a different viewpoint/perspective.
In the end, I don't care what someone else buys or wants to buy. I will make a purchasing decision that makes sense for me and not care to engage in box battles. It doesn't accomplish anything.
 
Neo Blaster

Neo Blaster

Member
quest said:
And can Sony defense team admit they should be promoting this feature more to put pressure on publishers to support it? Sony has the largest user base by a mile if they promoted it half as much as Microsoft there would be pressure on publishers from the public to support it. I don't give a crap if it is PR i want it to be a standard practice like PC. Double dipping for new textures can suck rocks.
Click to expand...
They don't need to, their userbase is already used to crossbuy since last gen.
 
Lunatic_Gamer

Lunatic_Gamer

Gold Member
Devs Need to Think of PS5’s SSD “As a Tool, Not a Silver Bullet” – Someday You’ll Return Dev

Jan Kavan, CEO of CBE Software – developers of the recent first person horror title Someday You’ll Return – recently spoke with us about the PS5’s SSD, and said that while it will, of course, “be a huge benefit”, developers should “think of it as a tool and not a silver bullet.”
Click to expand...


“Super-fast SSD again is a game-changer,” Kavan said. “But it’s worth noting, that developers need to think of it as a tool and not a silver bullet. It’s very easy to reach any kind of technological ceiling by abusing resources. So, by itself the PS5 SSD will be a huge benefit if the developers don’t access it as an infinite resource. I can’t wait for the games to cancel loading screens, especially after dying.”
Click to expand...


gamingbolt.com

Devs Need to Think of PS5’s SSD “As a Tool, Not a Silver Bullet” – Someday You’ll Return Dev

gamingbolt.com gamingbolt.com
 
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