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[existensmaximum]

Just had a random morning thought of an analogy to describe the design philosophy of the two consoles I believe is pretty accurate. The series x is like The Mountain. The biggest most powerful person on the planet. Can lift anything better than anyone, and best anyone in a pure brute strength competition. But when it comes to a fight, the mountain is slow, lumbering, and can't transfer all of his power into his punch, to effectively use that might.

The PS5 is Bruce Lee. Mr. Lee had a slight yet athletic frame. He wasn't the most powerful man in the world, not even close. But he was the quickest, most efficient, and most accurate fighter. His punches were able to transfer all of the power within himself into a singular, bone crushing point. And he could spontaneously adapt and react to any situation thrown at him. The ps5 is like water.

America vs Japan?

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Yes.

Court dismisses lawsuit surrounding Killzone: Shadow Fall graphics

A U.S. federal court dismissed on May 4 the class-action lawsuit that charged Sony with misrepresenting Killzone: Shadow Fall's visual fidelity, according to a court filing. Judge Edward M. Chen...

www.polygon.com

Why isn't there any suits against Microsoft?

 

[quest]

Why isn't there any suits against Microsoft?

Well contact an attorney and have at it. I'm sure you get plenty of the angy mob to join you. Maybe add digital foundry to the lawsuit for conspiracy to help cover it up.

 

[Rea]

As I said before Tempest Engine (or half of it as the other half is used for audio) is more than capable of handling just the BVH transversal and intersection portion of RT calculation, there are other parts to RT but this portion is just basic vector math and since Tempest Engine is made to calculate sound bounces off of objects, it must be almost exactly the same when geared towards light bounces off of objects.

And this part needs branch prediction for collisions and I believe it is best offloaded to components that can do parallel calc and in this case mainly CUs. So if Tempest Engine is offloading BVH part of RT completely from the CUs and with this lessening the impact of having less # of CUs for RT, then it can really be considered secret sauce.

On the other hand, the rest of the RT is still done on GPU, but I think the rest, like shading, more dependent on the clock speed of the hardware, so in that case too higher clock speeds on PS5 can in fact prove more stronger in terms of RT. Remember RT is not Floating Point Operation at all, and its capabilities are not TFLOP dependent at all too, that is why nVidia (as being first to market) invented Giga Rays for measuring their RT capabilities. And that part, for both consoles are completely missing from official technical specifications released by MS and Sony. But what I figure is PS5 can do (mostly because of higher clocks alone, and not even figuring Tempest into it) more Giga Rays per second intersections than Series X.

This is speculation on my part, but that is mostly dependent of scouring the white papers of nVidia's RT & RTX GPUs and AMD's proposed RT patents, and Tempest part is mostly how Cerny decided to frame his explanation of Tempest Engine. Remember that he purposefully let one half of TE's reason of existence out of his presentation but only alluded to it. When someone like him goes out of his way to explain how it is similar to PS3 Cell's SPUs and how they are strong at something, it is best to really give attention to it. It explains why they chose to make a CU behave like a SPU for audio, but then says TE is much more than just audio and game developers will have access to half of its power for 'other reasons'.

Now I will put a partial transcript of what Cerny said and will let you decide

At 44:35 explaining what Tempest Engine is

Spoiler: Video

"It is based on AMD's GPU technology, we modified a Compute Unit in such a way as to make it very close to SPUs in PS3. Remember when I said that they were ideal for audio. So, the Tempest Engine has no caches, just like an SPU, all data access is via DMA (Direct Memory Access), just like an SPU. Our target was that it would have more power than a CPU thanks to the parallelism that a GPU can achieve, and it would be more efficient than a GPU thanks to the SPU like architecture. The goal being to make possible near 100% utilization of CUs vector units."

At 46:03 mark explaining what TE can actually do

Spoiler: Video

"We want to be able to throw an overwhelming amount of processing power at the problem.... In fact with the Tempest Engine we even got enough power that we can allocate some to the games, to the extent that games want to make use of convolution reverb and other algorithms that are computationally expensive or need high bandwidth..."

and back when talking about RT, at 30:02

Spoiler: Video

"The CUs contain a new specialized unit called the Intersection Engine, which can calculate the intersection of rays with boxes and triangles. To use the Intersection Engine, first you build what is called an acceleration structure, it is data in ram that contains all of your geometry. There is a specific set of formats that you can use, they're variations on the same BVH concept. Then in your shader program you use a new instruction that asks the Intersection Engine to check a ray against a BVH. While the Intersection Engine is processing the requested ray/triangle or ray/box intersections, the shaders are free to do other work. Having said that, the ray tracing instruction is pretty memory intensive, so it is good mix with logic heavy code."


To me this is like an open book; geometry data of the game (or that exact frame to be precise) resides in the RAM which is also streaming on the fly thanks to the incredible speed of the SSD (within 1 second margin); Tempest Engine utilizes half of it's overwhelming processing power to build the acceleration structure or a BVH if you will and constantly updates these each frame; finally Intersection Engines in the CUs checks in-game light sources' rays against the acceleration structure made by the tempest Engine. This way BVH isn't made by CUs and isn't subtracting power from it, and also the number of CUs are unimportant, you are not limited by # of CUs but the processing power and DMA bandwidth of Tempest Engine. Let me remind you that sound is processed much much more frequently per second than a frame in graphics, like in 192kHz sounds vs 60Hz or even 144Hz screens, and that can provide you with necessary power of simple vector calculation prowess of Tempest Engine.

Very nice analysis.

 

[Metroiddarks]

When your forum no longer has insiders, the next best thing is to protect PC gaming enthusiast turned "tech youtube analyzer"

I am reading that thread I am still surprised how the people think DF for be more famous is better when anything works like that.

Also if you have people in your users which you know are in fact game dev, they should protect those people not DF is technical discussions.

I am not fan about how Cherno do its video of reaction so quickly and pass details sometimes but they guy talk for things he
use, maybe is not Carmack but its opinion should has more weight than a youtuber.

If we are talking about create a community then yes DF knows more. Btw the thread was fun to read.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Tempest having dual purpose as an RT processor would be really cool, it sounded quite overkill for 3D audio lol

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

did you see the cherno thread? a bunch of devs were fighting each other. Dev wars!

i was like war, war has changed.

Oh snap, didn’t realize there was drama in that thread

 

[thurnishaleygw]

"...
Elsewhere, the demo footage of Halo: Infinite, which is taking a more open-world approach than previous titles, also drew mixed reactions from fans. Twitter debates raged for hours after the presentation, with some feeling the art direction made the visuals look flat, while others felt the gameplay looked dated compared with contemporary shooters.

However, Booty says that developer 343 Industries has been closely guided by the Halo community during the game’s creation. “343 works with dedicated insider groups that are always giving them feedback,” he says. “They’re as plugged in as any team could be to feedback from core fans, from the esports community, and from people who have seen what they’ve done with the Halo: Master Chief collection. Games of the genre have evolved and moved forward. The art of game design is figuring out what feedback you’re going to incorporate, where to strike a balance, and I think they’re well plugged into a big community to do that.”...

Ummm... What?

Design by committee, just about the most stupid thing that can be done.

 

[Games Dean]

HeisenbergFX4 did you hear anymore concrete info over the weekend about when we can expect the next event to be?

 

[roops67]

Bo you had to go there didn't yeh, that's a blatant dig at your favourite meme Harold again! Just think how he's feeling from all the attention he's been getting off you?...

Spoiler: HideThePainHarold

 

[thurnishaleygw]

Oh no Sleep doctor got perm banned, damn what did he do.

That fucking halo reveal must have put him over the edge.

Locking doors and windows tonight.

 

[Nickolaidas]

We lost the infamous LOL giver sociapath @SleepDoctor so it is only fitting we give him the farewell that he deserves.

Spoiler

Thank the heavens that @Doncabesa is still here to bless this thread.

Wha - Sleepdoctor got banned?!

... that sucks. I liked the guy. 'Disruptive behavior'? I probably missed some posts of his, but I considered him amongst the more level-headed hardcore X-box fans ... if there is even such a thing. Was he spamming the 'report' button or something?

Sleep, if you're reading this, all the best. Take care.

 

[FranXico]

My guess.. Wario64

That would be huge news. I played it on PC, but it's just not the same experience as it would be on console.

 

[B_Boss]

Xbox showcase just reassured me in my decision to get xbsex first as I didnt find anything interesting for me in Sony showcase

Not even one single solitary game interested you? I figured there was something for everyone, Volcano High as well. Not sure why folks bash that game lol. There needs to be those kinds of games for everyone. Same with Xbox.

It killed me when he didn't call David Hayter!

Might be terrible of me but I refused to play MGSV due to that one fact Bo . I can’t. Hayter is Snake.

My love for this man knows no bounds

You and me both dude lol .

 

[Nickolaidas]

Troubling signals here.

Remaster would indicate no enhancement for ps4 backwards compatibility.

So let’s at least hope the PS4 version gets a PS5 patch matching the bundle. If not, this sets a horrible precedence and we’re back to PS3 to PS4 style paid remasters. Hoping we’re past this.

Ideally BC enhanced PS4 titles in meaningful ways. And for more impressive results, PS4 games can receive PS5 patches.

Or maybe, those who buy Miles Morales get the older game (remastered) for free, while those who already have the older game and don't buy Miles Morales just get the upgrade for free.

 

[Shmunter]

Or maybe, those who buy Miles Morales get the older game (remastered) for free, while those who already have the older game and don't buy Miles Morales just get the upgrade for free.

Beautiful

 

[Snowdonhoffen]

That would be huge news. I played it on PC, but it's just not the same experience as it would be on console.

Well... he might know something

 

[Deleted member 775630]

No surprise the usual suspects went dark after the reveal.

Such a shame.

Why would you come to a topic where 80% of the people are deliberately hoping your preferred console would fail?

 

[jose4gg]

Why would you come to a topic where 80% of the people are deliberately hoping your preferred console would fail?

I had high expectations for MS And I lot of people here too, but they weren't ready to show something for XSX...

 

[SlimySnake]

Wha - Sleepdoctor got banned?!

... that sucks. I liked the guy. 'Disruptive behavior'? I probably missed some posts of his, but I considered him amongst the more level-headed hardcore X-box fans ... if there is even such a thing. Was he spamming the 'report' button or something?

Sleep, if you're reading this, all the best. Take care.

his first ban was for PMing mods with reports of sony fans warring and then being passive aggressive about it in the PMs. the problem was that he had his reporting privileges taken away for spamming the report button.

When he came back he stayed in the ghost of tsushima thread and didnt really do anything that bad. i am guessing he started being his passive aggressive self again and was leaving LOLs everywhere which earned him a perma.

here is the ban message.

Ongoing harassment complaint about you, and generally disruptive behavior. Best we part ways.

 

[SlimySnake]

Why would you come to a topic where 80% of the people are deliberately hoping your preferred console would fail?

well, they had no problems coming to this topic before the shitty conference.

also you are projecting. every rumor i hear about the PS5 from xbox fans is how it is trash, how its only 8-9 tflops, how its going to be more expensive, and how it overheats. That's them not just wanting their team to succeed but also sony to fail. so they are doing exactly what you are accusing the other side of doing.

I dont want MS to fail. I want MS to succeed, but they blew it. They wont have a next gen game for not just the first year but at least 2 years and most likely three. we will have midgen consoles out by then. thats not me wanting XSX to fail, thats me saying thats simply unacceptable.

At the end of the day, they simply are not ready. Not with cross gen games (They only have one in Halo Infinite), and definitely not with next gen games. They wont have an AAA game after Halo until whenever Fable, State Of decay, Forza, Everwild or Avowed launch. All of these games are early in dev. thats 2-3 years minimum. And again, no cross gen exclusives before that.

I thought Sony was the one with overheat issues. And yet Sony turned up with 24 games running on the PS5 while MS showed up with zero. We arent allowed to criticize this stuff? Why dont you guys join in? I was pretty critical of sony's underwhelming conference (Which btw looks like the citizen kane of conferences after the shitshow that was MS's conference). why cant you guys come in and just agree with people for once? instead of leaving LOLs on every post.

 

[FeiRR]

Troubling signals here.

Remaster would indicate no enhancement for ps4 backwards compatibility.

So let’s at least hope the PS4 version gets a PS5 patch matching the bundle. If not, this sets a horrible precedence and we’re back to PS3 to PS4 style paid remasters. Hoping we’re past this.

Ideally BC enhanced PS4 titles in meaningful ways. And for more impressive results, PS4 games can receive PS5 patches.

How would you like those titles to be enhanced? Is it higher resolution and framerate? Then it's possible through quite simple patches (depends on the game, of course). Do you want RT and 3D audio? This would require a lot of work, especially adding RT means you have to overhaul all lighting and textures in a game which hadn't been prepared for that (games with pre-baked lighting). I wouldn't expect publishers to add such features to a lot of games for free because it means they need to spend a lot of money on those enhancements.

If true, that would make Ori and the Will of the Wisps the best Xbox One exclusive imo.

I concur. I played that Xbox exclusive game on PC and enjoyed it very much.

(see how Microsoft marketing controls minds? I played the game even though I don't have an Xbox so how the fuck is it exclusive?)

Must have missed this announcement.

I've been a PS+ subscriber since the beginning and what I got? Nothing! Dear Sony, screw you.

 

[zaitsu]

well, they had no problems coming to this topic before the shitty conference.

also you are projecting. every rumor i hear about the PS5 from xbox fans is how it is trash, how its only 8-9 tflops, how its going to be more expensive, and how it overheats. That's them not just wanting their team to succeed but also sony to fail. so they are doing exactly what you are accusing the other side of doing.

I dont want MS to fail. I want MS to succeed, but they blew it. They wont have a next gen game for not just the first year but at least 2 years and most likely three. we will have midgen consoles out by then. thats not me wanting XSX to fail, thats me saying thats simply unacceptable.

At the end of the day, they simply are not ready. Not with cross gen games (They only have one in Halo Infinite), and definitely not with next gen games. They wont have an AAA game after Halo until whenever Fable, State Of decay, Forza, Everwild or Avowed launch. All of these games are early in dev. thats 2-3 years minimum. And again, no cross gen exclusives before that.

I thought Sony was the one with overheat issues. And yet Sony turned up with 24 games running on the PS5 while MS showed up with zero. We arent allowed to criticize this stuff? Why dont you guys join in? I was pretty critical of sony's underwhelming conference (Which btw looks like the citizen kane of conferences after the shitshow that was MS's conference). why cant you guys come in and just agree with people for once? instead of leaving LOLs on every post.

Are you me from the future who has written that post ?

 

[SlimySnake]

I had high expectations for MS And I lot of people here too, but they weren't ready to show something for XSX...

Remember when Sony cancelled their E3 conference in January? Everyone went nuts. Sony were getting trashed left and right. Phil Spencer, ever the opportunist, took this opportunity to immediately go on twitter and promised his fanbase that they were preparing and were on track to have a great E3. This was in January. Sony actually had their E3 conference when you would usually have an E3 conference while MS took almost two months longer, and still only came with CGi trailers and Halo in arguably the worst state a game can be at E3.

So it's obvious that Phil knew he wasn't ready, but he wanted mad props from his twitter dogs and sent them all riled up Sony's way. This is the same guy who sings kumbaya and wants everyone to get along, and doesnt like console warriors. He literally lied just to earn some gamer cred.

And then people dont want us to criticize him. Come on.

 

[JTCx]

Why would you come to a topic where 80% of the people are deliberately hoping your preferred console would fail?

they had no problem before

 

[ToadMan]

So disappointed we got a CGI trailer for that game. I know Turn 10 churns out good games and its been a while since the last Forza so i thought they would have gameplay ready.

Yeah this is something I’ve been thinking about too.

Forza should’ve been “easy” to demo something.

GT7 used models and environments looking very similar to GTS but with added RT on gameplay.

T10 could presumably have take the PC forza engine and run RT on it to demo some gameplay like that. It doesn’t seem to me that would have been technically complex to do.

It’s gonna be interesting to so the estimated release date of Forza now - it seems like it won’t be launch or launch window which is what I had previously expected.

 

[Brudda26]

Yeah this is something I’ve been thinking about too.

Forza should’ve been “easy” to demo something.

GT7 used models and environments looking very similar to GTS but with added RT on gameplay.

T10 could presumably have take the PC forza engine and run RT on it to demo some gameplay like that. It doesn’t seem to me that would have been technically complex to do.

It’s gonna be interesting to so the estimated release date of Forza now - it seems like it won’t be launch or launch window which is what I had previously expected.

The environments in GT7 are a massive step above sport

 

[ToadMan]

they had no problem before

I think the “silence” is deafening isn’t it?

It seems like no matter where you fall on the graph of gaming fandom, the MS showing was something everyone agrees was subpar even if they hate to agree.

But having said that, this thread is still serving it’s purpose - people are talking about the MS stuff in the context of what MS is doing... If not for this thread there’d have been a lot of crap flying around in the official Xbox and halo threads.

As it is (I assume I didn’t actually look) those threads remain peaceful.

 

[ToadMan]

The environments in GT7 are a massive step above sport

Are they? I have to say I didn’t really notice that but I also didn’t pay much attention or check an analysis of the demo.

If they are then that’s good. To be honest I’m happy with GTS assets with some RT, more detailed textures and a single player mode.

If they went beyond that then even better.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

well, they had no problems coming to this topic before the shitty conference.

also you are projecting. every rumor i hear about the PS5 from xbox fans is how it is trash, how its only 8-9 tflops, how its going to be more expensive, and how it overheats. That's them not just wanting their team to succeed but also sony to fail. so they are doing exactly what you are accusing the other side of doing.

I dont want MS to fail. I want MS to succeed, but they blew it. They wont have a next gen game for not just the first year but at least 2 years and most likely three. we will have midgen consoles out by then. thats not me wanting XSX to fail, thats me saying thats simply unacceptable.

At the end of the day, they simply are not ready. Not with cross gen games (They only have one in Halo Infinite), and definitely not with next gen games. They wont have an AAA game after Halo until whenever Fable, State Of decay, Forza, Everwild or Avowed launch. All of these games are early in dev. thats 2-3 years minimum. And again, no cross gen exclusives before that.

I thought Sony was the one with overheat issues. And yet Sony turned up with 24 games running on the PS5 while MS showed up with zero. We arent allowed to criticize this stuff? Why dont you guys join in? I was pretty critical of sony's underwhelming conference (Which btw looks like the citizen kane of conferences after the shitshow that was MS's conference). why cant you guys come in and just agree with people for once? instead of leaving LOLs on every post.

Well I don't leave lol's on posts, I do get a lot of lols, but not for the reason I would hope I get them

On your other points, people don't join in here because if they actually thought the conference was decent, or have hopes for a great Xbox future, they get bombarded with lol's or non-stop comments about what a fanboy they are, or how delusional they are. Why would you even come here then? This topic is mostly Sony fans (which is ok btw), and then some die-hard fans that love it when Microsoft drops the ball. It's just not worth the time for a lot of people.

 

[icerock]

Why would you come to a topic where 80% of the people are deliberately hoping your preferred console would fail?

I don’t know it its funny, sad, disappointing, or a mixture of all that you and many others view such topics from such a narrow lense.

Save for selective few, who have an undying loyalty to one box which prevents them from liking another, there’s a healthy chunk of regulars on here who wanted MS keynote to kick ass. The simple fact of the matter is, they rolled up with a very meh gameplay footage of their flagship title, while announcing a bunch of stuff using CG trailer which are years away. The worst part is the brief snippets of gameplay we did see, wasn’t even running on the hardware they’ve been so proudly championing for the last 9 months or so. Also, keep in mind this keynote was preceeded by tons of PR talk from MS big suits which was a complete contradiction to what was shown. Cross-gen games won’t hold the games back? Next-gen only games are anti-consumer as you’re forcing consumer to upgrade? Timed-exclusives are a complete counter to what gaming is about? Not only they were wrong on every single count, they themselves pataked in what they previous dubbed as anti-thesis of gaming.

So, why are you and others surprised, that on a gaming enthusiast forum such as Gaf, they are catching flak? There’s a lot of room for discussion on gaming forums if fans can drop the persecution complex, it kills any potential straight-away.

 

[SlimySnake]

Well I don't leave lol's on posts, I do get a lot of lols, but not for the reason I would hope I get them

On your other points, people don't join in here because if they actually thought the conference was decent, or have hopes for a great Xbox future, they get bombarded with lol's or non-stop comments about what a fanboy they are, or how delusional they are. Why would you even come here then? This topic is mostly Sony fans (which is ok btw), and then some die-hard fans that love it when Microsoft drops the ball. It's just not worth the time for a lot of people.

I don't see how anyone can enjoy a conference full of cgi trailers but i guess i can see why those fans won't want to post here anymore.

As for lols, just put those guys on ignore. It really helps.

 

[Sinthor]

How would you like those titles to be enhanced? Is it higher resolution and framerate? Then it's possible through quite simple patches (depends on the game, of course). Do you want RT and 3D audio? This would require a lot of work, especially adding RT means you have to overhaul all lighting and textures in a game which hadn't been prepared for that (games with pre-baked lighting). I wouldn't expect publishers to add such features to a lot of games for free because it means they need to spend a lot of money on those enhancements.


I concur. I played that Xbox exclusive game on PC and enjoyed it very much.

(see how Microsoft marketing controls minds? I played the game even though I don't have an Xbox so how the fuck is it exclusive?)


I've been a PS+ subscriber since the beginning and what I got? Nothing! Dear Sony, screw you.

I wonder how these are determined? I've had PS+ since it became available on the PS3. I got one of these notices as well but it was a $10.00 credit, not $15.

 

[Snowdonhoffen]

well, they had no problems coming to this topic before the shitty conference.

also you are projecting. every rumor i hear about the PS5 from xbox fans is how it is trash, how its only 8-9 tflops, how its going to be more expensive, and how it overheats. That's them not just wanting their team to succeed but also sony to fail. so they are doing exactly what you are accusing the other side of doing.

I dont want MS to fail. I want MS to succeed, but they blew it. They wont have a next gen game for not just the first year but at least 2 years and most likely three. we will have midgen consoles out by then. thats not me wanting XSX to fail, thats me saying thats simply unacceptable.

At the end of the day, they simply are not ready. Not with cross gen games (They only have one in Halo Infinite), and definitely not with next gen games. They wont have an AAA game after Halo until whenever Fable, State Of decay, Forza, Everwild or Avowed launch. All of these games are early in dev. thats 2-3 years minimum. And again, no cross gen exclusives before that.

I thought Sony was the one with overheat issues. And yet Sony turned up with 24 games running on the PS5 while MS showed up with zero. We arent allowed to criticize this stuff? Why dont you guys join in? I was pretty critical of sony's underwhelming conference (Which btw looks like the citizen kane of conferences after the shitshow that was MS's conference). why cant you guys come in and just agree with people for once? instead of leaving LOLs on every post.

The way I see it, there's a negative rumor about PS5 and that negative rumor gains a lot of traction and it's thrown around as an absolute truth and there's a lot of console warring around it from the usual suspects who spread that "absolute truth" as gospel only to be proven false in the end (e.g. PS5 not having hardware ray tracing, PS5 not being RNDA2, PS5 being slower than Series X, etc). When it comes to Xbox, the warring happens when that company screw things up (e.g Xbox Showcase) and that's when the roles are reversed but this time there is no way to deny or be proven false so what's next? play the victim "Dude, you guys are so toxic, always being so negative about my favourite console" as if they were not spreading misinformation just some days before.

 

[SlimySnake]

Are they? I have to say I didn’t really notice that but I also didn’t pay much attention or check an analysis of the demo.

If they are then that’s good. To be honest I’m happy with GTS assets with some RT, more detailed textures and a single player mode.

If they went beyond that then even better.

They finally have 3d trees, a first for the series.

I hope they do more than just rt. It seems they are adding a full real-time day night cycle with dynamic lighting, something they couldn't do on the ps4. Its basically driveclub in 60 fps.

They need to add driveclub quality weather and destruction. They simply cannot ship without damage in 2020. With the Zen 2 cpu allowing for far more advanced simulations than before.

I was looking at horizon and ratchet trailers and they are both using the cpu to push the npc count. In ratchet, every scene has dozens of npcs and enemies. Both in trailer and the gameplay footage. Ships everywhere in sky boxes. Horizons underwater section had hundreds of small fish and dozens of larger fish. Plus a really fancy shot of a geese hunting fish in the ocean. I really hope that wasn't just done for the trailer. I really want the Zen 2 cpu to power those kinds of eco systems.

 

[Brudda26]

Are they? I have to say I didn’t really notice that but I also didn’t pay much attention or check an analysis of the demo.

If they are then that’s good. To be honest I’m happy with GTS assets with some RT, more detailed textures and a single player mode.

If they went beyond that then even better.

I noticed quite a large step up in environmental detail, I've put 100s upon 100s of hours into sport so it was quite noticeable to me.

 

[yewles1]

The environments in GT7 are a massive step above sport

I saw new foliage not shown before in the series, those loud shifting clinks, a remodelled Trial Mountain, the kind of minutiae that made me question DF's focus when analyzing the trailer.

 

[ToadMan]

Troubling signals here.

Remaster would indicate no enhancement for ps4 backwards compatibility.

So let’s at least hope the PS4 version gets a PS5 patch matching the bundle. If not, this sets a horrible precedence and we’re back to PS3 to PS4 style paid remasters. Hoping we’re past this.

Ideally BC enhanced PS4 titles in meaningful ways. And for more impressive results, PS4 games can receive PS5 patches.

I don’t read it that way because it’s bundled.

To get MM running and upgraded on PS5 they have to work on the underlying SM engine.

With that done they are just bundling the whole SM game with it because the engine/environment is already there for MM. The original SM campaign is basically a bunch of mission scripts and assets on top.

But I think if people who have SM PS4 choose not to buy MM, Sony will provide the PS5 engine patch at no charge.

I hope I’m right on that - this seems like one of those things that won’t operationally matter - SM fans will buy MM anyway - but from a PR perspective at the launch of a console could be a significant talking point and precedent.

 

[Sinthor]

The way I see it, there's a negative rumor about PS5 and that negative rumor gains a lot of traction and it's thrown around as an absolute truth and there's a lot of console warring around it from the usual suspects who spread that "absolute truth" as gospel only to be proven false in the end (e.g. PS5 not having hardware ray tracing, PS5 not being RNDA2, PS5 being slower than Series X, etc). When it comes to Xbox, the warring happens when that company screw things up (e.g Xbox Showcase) and that's when the roles are reversed but this time there is no way to deny or be proven false so what's next? play the victim "Dude, you guys are so toxic, always being so negative about my favourite console" as if they were not spreading misinformation just some days before.

I have to agree with this. I respect guys like @X-Fighter for sticking around. There were a ton of us sticking around still thru all that "PS5 only 9Tflops LOL" and "PS5 RDNA 1.0!" stuff that was going on for a LONG TIME. It just seems that when there's a bit of negative feedback from this conference that most if not all of those voices bailed.

Bottom line, there's still a TON to speculate on and a ton we don't know still about both consoles. So regardless of hits and misses there's a good reason to hang in the thread. We can just do it without bringing up those negatives in every post we make. Some people seemed constitutionally unable to do that and those are the ones, coincidentally, who are gone.

Look, I still want to know the details on BC for both boxes. I want to know about the overall performance and architecture. How's the memory bandwidth going to affect both machines. What other surprises do they both have under their hoods. There's a lot to know still and that's why I'm still in this thread. I think I gave a fair and honest opinion of things for both the Sony and MS showcases and I've been clear on what I still need to see. But in the end, I get people disappearing. We as humans tend to get emotionally wrapped up in things like this and it's not fun when you get negative feedback on anything. But...we all have to just roll with the punches and try not to get hung up on that type of thing. Easier said than done!

 

[Brudda26]

They finally have 3d trees, a first for the series.

I hope they do more than just rt. It seems they are adding a full real-time day night cycle with dynamic lighting, something they couldn't do on the ps4. Its basically driveclub in 60 fps.

They need to add driveclub quality weather and destruction. They simply cannot ship without damage in 2020. With the Zen 2 cpu allowing for far more advanced simulations than before.

I was looking at horizon and ratchet trailers and they are both using the cpu to push the npc count. In ratchet, every scene has dozens of npcs and enemies. Both in trailer and the gameplay footage. Ships everywhere in sky boxes. Horizons underwater section had hundreds of small fish and dozens of larger fish. Plus a really fancy shot of a geese hunting fish in the ocean. I really hope that wasn't just done for the trailer. I really want the Zen 2 cpu to power those kinds of eco systems.

Sport had 3D trees rather than the flat things of old. Also car destruction these days is down to car manufacturers alot of them dont like it and if you do have it you have to pay even more for the license. Car companies see money signs when it comes to games these days.

 

[yewles1]

Sport had 3D trees rather than the flat things of old. Also car destruction these days is down to car manufacturers alot of them dont like it and if you do have it you have to pay even more for the license. Car companies see money signs when it comes to games these days.

Didn't Forza 6 and 7 revert to 2D trees to save on performance?

 

[ToadMan]

Sport had 3D trees rather than the flat things of old. Also car destruction these days is down to car manufacturers alot of them dont like it and if you do have it you have to pay even more for the license. Car companies see money signs when it comes to games these days.

You know I’m all about the sim aspects but actually I don’t like car damage that much.

When I go into photo mode a car in view is scuffed or whatever - it’s annoying because it ruins the photo!

Perhaps they should add a hide damage toggle to photo mode...

 

[icerock]

They finally have 3d trees, a first for the series.

I hope they do more than just rt. It seems they are adding a full real-time day night cycle with dynamic lighting, something they couldn't do on the ps4. Its basically driveclub in 60 fps. They need to add driveclub quality weather and destruction. They simply cannot ship without damage in 2020. With the Zen 2 cpu allowing for far more advanced simulations than before.

Gran Turismo always push the tech so I'm hoping there's a lot more going in that game than addition of just RT. Native 4K 60 has me little nervous though, huge resource hog which may not allow for more bells and whistles.

I was looking at horizon and ratchet trailers and they are both using the cpu to push the npc count. In ratchet, every scene has dozens of npcs and enemies. Both in trailer and the gameplay footage. Ships everywhere in sky boxes. Horizons underwater section had hundreds of small fish and dozens of larger fish. Plus a really fancy shot of a geese hunting fish in the ocean. I really hope that wasn't just done for the trailer. I really want the Zen 2 cpu to power those kinds of eco systems.

To me the first shot of that pelican in underwater looked like a cutscene, but the camera work when Aloy is swimming under-water has me hopeful about a really alive eco-system in underwater and hopefully also on land.

Talking about Driveclub, wasn't there a (strange?) rumor about Kaz not being too impressed with Sony building another big budget photo-realistic racer in Driveclub? I still feel hurt that this franchise is no more, Evolution got the short end of the stick from Sony. They were a moderately sized studio of ~100 who put out a solid racing game which sold well (2m by July 2015) At least, we'll have Dirt 5 for next-gen, that game has a lot of potential with ex-Evolution devs working on it.

 

[Shmunter]

I don’t read it that way because it’s bundled.

To get MM running and upgraded on PS5 they have to work on the underlying SM engine.

With that done they are just bundling the whole SM game with it because the engine/environment is already there for MM. The original SM campaign is basically a bunch of mission scripts and assets on top.

But I think if people who have SM PS4 choose not to buy MM, Sony will provide the PS5 engine patch at no charge.

I hope I’m right on that - this seems like one of those things that won’t operationally matter - SM fans will buy MM anyway - but from a PR perspective at the launch of a console could be a significant talking point and precedent.

This will be the acid test, and frankly what we should all expect.

 

[zubairali2]

Well I don't leave lol's on posts, I do get a lot of lols, but not for the reason I would hope I get them

On your other points, people don't join in here because if they actually thought the conference was decent, or have hopes for a great Xbox future, they get bombarded with lol's or non-stop comments about what a fanboy they are, or how delusional they are. Why would you even come here then? This topic is mostly Sony fans (which is ok btw), and then some die-hard fans that love it when Microsoft drops the ball. It's just not worth the time for a lot of people.

the thing is that we really, really, REALLY want xbox to have a great future too. however this whole generation has showed us that ps4 is the clear winner, why? games, its literally what microsoft needs and we all know eventually with all that power the series x has, someone will make an amazing game that will make everyone want to buy an xbox.

it will always be a meme of xbox having no games, but until then it wont stop unless microsoft pulls their shit together and try to make this a competition against sony.

 

[Setsuna Mudou]

Well I don't leave lol's on posts, I do get a lot of lols, but not for the reason I would hope I get them

On your other points, people don't join in here because if they actually thought the conference was decent, or have hopes for a great Xbox future, they get bombarded with lol's or non-stop comments about what a fanboy they are, or how delusional they are. Why would you even come here then? This topic is mostly Sony fans (which is ok btw), and then some die-hard fans that love it when Microsoft drops the ball. It's just not worth the time for a lot of people.

I've joined the forum recently, but I was lurking for a long time. The same people that are AWOL right now were singing the 12vs9 tflop tune for months. Any attempt to reason and explain how tflops are not a good measure of performance when you have such different architectures were discredited and ridiculed by that same crowd.

Now the chickens came home to roost when MS only had to show up and prove them right. MS made themselves a laughing stock by:

a) marketing the "most powerful" console
b) after a poor first even teasing this July one would show the true power of their machine
c) promoting the worst kind of fanboys on twitter/etc that would downplay the ps5 for months
d) coin bullshit marketing words to give them some perceived advantage over the ps5 architecture
e) keeping the "just wait until you see Halo" cock teasing of their fans for months, knowing full well this was what they had to show for

I for one am really not surprised those people are now hiding in a corner somewhere. But they shouldn't be mad at PS fans, only at the Xbox leadership.

 

[Rea]

e) keeping the "just wait until you see Halo" cock teasing of their fans for months,

LoL, that was the most painful part for their fans, Xbox literally slaps their fans face. Phill and his Co said "New Halo is built from thr ground up, to take full advantages of SERIES X". After watching the game showcase, it is so painful. Why they straight up lie, and also the game weren't even running on Series X. And there is no RT. Compare to sony, most of their 1st part has RT right out of the box. Why can't Microsoft do that. So much for the power narrative right? Also full RDNA 2 can't even show RT? Microsoft didn't deserve anyone's money. Seriously.

 

[Shmunter]

LoL, that was the most painful part for their fans, Xbox literally slaps their fans face. Phill and his Co said "New Halo is built from thr ground up, to take full advantages of SERIES X". After watching the game showcase, it is so painful. Why they straight up lie, and also the game weren't even running on Series X. And there is no RT. Compare to sony, most of their 1st part has RT right out of the box. Why can't Microsoft do that. So much for the power narrative right? Also full RDNA 2 can't even show RT? Microsoft didn't deserve anyone's money. Seriously.

There was something about XsX ssd & decompression giving low performance needing revised hardware. Can’t find where I saw it now. But it would indicate the console not ready hence the software needing to run on PC. Could be fud.

 

[Udde]

As I said before Tempest Engine (or half of it as the other half is used for audio) is more than capable of handling just the BVH transversal and intersection portion of RT calculation, there are other parts to RT but this portion is just basic vector math and since Tempest Engine is made to calculate sound bounces off of objects, it must be almost exactly the same when geared towards light bounces off of objects.

And this part needs branch prediction for collisions and I believe it is best offloaded to components that can do parallel calc and in this case mainly CUs. So if Tempest Engine is offloading BVH part of RT completely from the CUs and with this lessening the impact of having less # of CUs for RT, then it can really be considered secret sauce.

On the other hand, the rest of the RT is still done on GPU, but I think the rest, like shading, more dependent on the clock speed of the hardware, so in that case too higher clock speeds on PS5 can in fact prove more stronger in terms of RT. Remember RT is not Floating Point Operation at all, and its capabilities are not TFLOP dependent at all too, that is why nVidia (as being first to market) invented Giga Rays for measuring their RT capabilities. And that part, for both consoles are completely missing from official technical specifications released by MS and Sony. But what I figure is PS5 can do (mostly because of higher clocks alone, and not even figuring Tempest into it) more Giga Rays per second intersections than Series X.

This is speculation on my part, but that is mostly dependent of scouring the white papers of nVidia's RT & RTX GPUs and AMD's proposed RT patents, and Tempest part is mostly how Cerny decided to frame his explanation of Tempest Engine. Remember that he purposefully let one half of TE's reason of existence out of his presentation but only alluded to it. When someone like him goes out of his way to explain how it is similar to PS3 Cell's SPUs and how they are strong at something, it is best to really give attention to it. It explains why they chose to make a CU behave like a SPU for audio, but then says TE is much more than just audio and game developers will have access to half of its power for 'other reasons'.

Now I will put a partial transcript of what Cerny said and will let you decide

At 44:35 explaining what Tempest Engine is

Spoiler: Video

"It is based on AMD's GPU technology, we modified a Compute Unit in such a way as to make it very close to SPUs in PS3. Remember when I said that they were ideal for audio. So, the Tempest Engine has no caches, just like an SPU, all data access is via DMA (Direct Memory Access), just like an SPU. Our target was that it would have more power than a CPU thanks to the parallelism that a GPU can achieve, and it would be more efficient than a GPU thanks to the SPU like architecture. The goal being to make possible near 100% utilization of CUs vector units."

At 46:03 mark explaining what TE can actually do

Spoiler: Video

"We want to be able to throw an overwhelming amount of processing power at the problem.... In fact with the Tempest Engine we even got enough power that we can allocate some to the games, to the extent that games want to make use of convolution reverb and other algorithms that are computationally expensive or need high bandwidth..."

and back when talking about RT, at 30:02

Spoiler: Video

"The CUs contain a new specialized unit called the Intersection Engine, which can calculate the intersection of rays with boxes and triangles. To use the Intersection Engine, first you build what is called an acceleration structure, it is data in ram that contains all of your geometry. There is a specific set of formats that you can use, they're variations on the same BVH concept. Then in your shader program you use a new instruction that asks the Intersection Engine to check a ray against a BVH. While the Intersection Engine is processing the requested ray/triangle or ray/box intersections, the shaders are free to do other work. Having said that, the ray tracing instruction is pretty memory intensive, so it is good mix with logic heavy code."


To me this is like an open book; geometry data of the game (or that exact frame to be precise) resides in the RAM which is also streaming on the fly thanks to the incredible speed of the SSD (within 1 second margin); Tempest Engine utilizes half of it's overwhelming processing power to build the acceleration structure or a BVH if you will and constantly updates these each frame; finally Intersection Engines in the CUs checks in-game light sources' rays against the acceleration structure made by the tempest Engine. This way BVH isn't made by CUs and isn't subtracting power from it, and also the number of CUs are unimportant, you are not limited by # of CUs but the processing power and DMA bandwidth of Tempest Engine. Let me remind you that sound is processed much much more frequently per second than a frame in graphics, like in 192kHz sounds vs 60Hz or even 144Hz screens, and that can provide you with necessary power of simple vector calculation prowess of Tempest Engine.

I watched Cerny's presentation but I don't have the knowledge to extract all that information like you do. Thank you very much, this makes perfect sense and it is very exciting indeed

 

[jasondefaoite]

I don't leave lol's on posts, I do get a lot of lols, but not for the reason I would hope I get them

I left one on that post for the above