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[Bo_Hazem]

This is actually sad. Cmon MS.

It's beyond repair. PS5 still has its intelligent design and exclusives to justify its purchase. That Nvidia reveals is simply massive, killed XSX prematurely.

 

[TLZ]

Wazzup

Sheesh. I remember everyone in the dorms did this back in my Uni days early 00s.

 

[Varnish La PS]

Matric 2 had Monica belluscci. Persphone

Now my penis is also excited for Next Gen!

 

[geordiemp]

Really stupid question here, but these prices for the nividia cards are a lot cheaper than people suspected, is there a way to find out how much silicone really costs, as in, right now i can look up gold right or silver etc as a commodity and check its worth. by the ounce or the gram. You can't do that with silicon.

How do companies grade it, how do we know how much its worth, does it fluctuate day by day or what?

Is it all about yields?

Who sets these prices for said silicon, how do people decide what it's worth. How do we grade it?

Is it the same between companies?

Does Bo like camels sexually, all these mysteries to be solved.

geordiemp you big bag of wind, wake up, stuff stuffing your face with pizza and input, you big girl's blouse.

Wafers are not relatively expensive, the fab building and all the instrumentation and inside is what costs, TSMC discussing 1 new fab in USA, cost 12 billion dollars for 1 high end fab. TSMC have 4 of these high end fabs in Taiwan and many others.

So the fab has to charge customers to get the massive investment back over the next few years....Its big investment usually involving governments and politics.

That EUV machine for special patterning of 7 nm costs 100 million dollars each. Then you have expensive engineering / design and the like.

Then the amount of process steps will blow your mind, there can be 100 or more each with a different machine and army of robots to feed them in an ultra clean environment to build patterned layers that make up a chip.

No fishes allowed.

 

[Mahavastu]

Really stupid question here, but these prices for the nividia cards are a lot cheaper than people suspected, is there a way to find out how much silicone really costs, as in, right now i can look up gold right or silver etc as a commodity and check its worth. by the ounce or the gram. You can't do that with silicon.

Is it all about yields?

You have these "Wafer", which are these large round things you "burn in" (sorry, don't know the english professional word for it) the chips in. These wafers have a set price for the given technology.
Now its on you to get as much chips out of it as possible. So you want to have a small die and have a top yield, to get as much as possible working dies from this wafer.
If you have a smaller die (like the PS5 has probably a smaller SoC as XSX but larger than Lockhard), then more dies (later chips) fit on the wafer. If you have a not working chips you might try to use it with lower clockspeed (for cheaper versions of your CPU/GPU, not possible for the PS5) or disable parts of the chip (like PS5 has 4 spare CUs and works even with small defects). AMD had CPUs/GPUs where some cores were disabled because of defects or having redundance.
The smaller the nodes (PS5 uses 7 nm), the more transistors fit on the same die area. For example the SoCs of the OG Xbox One, XBox One X and Series X are all nearly the same size (360-370mm2), but the newer the chip the more performance because of better manufacturing process.
Brand new processes usually have lower yields, but with time the yields improve. Microsoft said at Hot Chips that their current Yield is lower then with the older processes. This will change with time, so later manufactured XBoxes will be slightly cheaper.
Of course it also matters how advanced your technology is. Microsoft said that the current 7nm process is more expensive then older processes.

Who sets these prices for said silicon, how do people decide what it's worth. How do we grade it?
Is it the same between companies?

I assume that TSMC or similar manufacturer sets the prices for its products. It will probably be pretty much the same for most customers, but you should get discounts if you order more.

Spoiler: image of wafer

 

[3liteDragon]

Now my penis is also excited for Next Gen!

Profile pic checks out lol

 

[Dave_at_Home]

Even xbox shills can't bring themselves to be excited for xsx

Is Tom Warren really this lost? Cause that's the look of a lost puppy.

"Power matters" as it relates to what? The PS5? The absolute tiny difference in GPU grunt? Or the huge difference in GPU power when compared to Ampere?

Xbox out here flexing hard with tflops. "WE GOT 12!"

Meanwhile, Nvidia sneaks up behind them and literally takes their tflop Lunchables. Now what do they have? Game Pass is a great value, but Xbox simply doesn't have enough compelling first-party games. Hopefully that changes, but their track record sucks.

The power strategy Microsoft is going with is blowing up in their face. Waste of time. Not to mention with all the power flexing going on with Series X, they now need to explain to people why a much weaker Series S is also worth your money. God speed, Microsoft.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I am too, gimme gold Bo

Didn't notice your post, tag me next time. Now skimming through as I'm 42 pages behind! Medal of Friendship.

 

[Crazychipmunx]

I think its important to note that that PC and consoles are different beasts. When the ps4 and xbox one were being released equivalent PC parts were sold promoted as playing with console quality. For example, kavari apu were sold demonstrated to perform similar or better than console in tomb raider. Similarly, the gtx 750 was promoted as being a console killing gpu at the price point. However if you try and play a modern game on either device... the results aren't pretty. I know from personal experience...

 

[Nowcry]

It's beyond repair. PS5 still has it's intelligent design and exclusives to justify its purchase. That Nvidia reveals is simply massive, killed XSX prematurely.

From my point of view this is really what happened. From a non-exclusive approach, SX really has no place on the market in a broad form, at least not in its current form.

If Sony on the one hand offers its experiences more than 3rd and a better experience in 3rd in an environment of high use of the I / O and PC offers all the experiences of SX and in addition to a better experience in all the sections, between the two they stray to SX until it becomes a totally substitute product, only dependent on people who want to save money.

Which would sink XBSX's point and eventually the big sales would end up on XBSS.

Anyway it is a personal opinion.

 

[kyliethicc]

Matric 2 had Monica belluscci. Persphone

WHAT A GOD DAMN WOMAN.

SPEAK NO EVIL

Just one kiss.

10/10

 

[IntentionalPun]

I don't see why some new cards would suddenly get people en masse to move to PC...

If you want to PC game, you PC game..

If you want to console game you console game..

If you want to do both, you do both.

They are different beasts.

Xbox is being sunk by their bad marketing and not showing anything good... not video cards lol

They are gonna try to save themselves with the GamePass value proposition. And even as a PC gamer, you might want an Xbox for that.. as the offering and games differ quite a bit.

 

[Neo Blaster]

You spelled "Nintendo" wrong m8

 

[sircaw]

I don't see why some new cards would suddenly get people en masse to move to PC...

If you want to PC game, you PC game..

If you want to console game you console game..

If you want to do both, you do both.

They are different beasts.

Xbox is being sunk by their bad marketing and not showing anything good... not video cards lol

They are gonna try to save themselves with the GamePass value proposition. And even as a PC gamer, you might want an Xbox for that.. as the offering and games differ quite a bit.

I guess it's more people would have the best of two worlds.

Pc and ps5

Pc will have anything an Xbox will have and potentially better settings with these new cards.

Ps5 has those exclusives to full back on, they protect its ecosystem.

Xbox has no such protection, its just another pc in reality.

 

[Neo Blaster]

Did someone say....

This one is better

 

[IntentionalPun]

I guess it's more people would have the best of two worlds.

Pc and ps5

Pc will have anything an Xbox will have and potentially better settings with these new cards.

Ps5 has those exclusives to full back on, they protect its ecosystem.

Xbox has no such protection, its just another pc in reality.

My point is...

There's loads of people that won't PC game and it has nothing to do with the games.. but the fact it's a PC.

The experience is incredibly different as are the costs.

 

[sircaw]

My point is...

There's loads of people that won't PC game and it has nothing to do with the games.. but the fact it's a PC.

The experience is incredibly different as are the costs.

The problem for xbox is there are loads of people that will go in the direction of the pc.

Sony does not have that problem.

In the end, Microsoft does not care where you game, so pick your poison and be happy about it.

I hope your buying a Ps5, do the right thing.

 

[MrS]

Spoiler: image of wafer

You call that a wafer? This, my friend, is a wafer

 

[IntentionalPun]

The problem for xbox is there are loads of people that will go in the direction of the pc.

Sony does not have that problem.

In the end, Microsoft does not care where you game, so pick your poison and be happy about it.

I hope your buying a Ps5, do the right thing.

I'm talking about the idea that some $599-1500 graphics cards announcements will suddenly be the catalyst to "kill Xbox."

It's just ridiculous.

 

[Games Dean]

I have been kind of avoiding this thread in particular recently but people are just hungry.

That said I do believe we get PS5 info next week and really hoping they put out the announcement of their show any day now.

I do not believe its going to be in conjunction with the COD MP reveal as they are doing their own thing.

Either way time is running out they have to show their hands soon.

Since it's been nearly 3 months since the Future of Gaming event, this next show better be a similar level production. I don't want it to be state of play after this long gap without news.

 

[sircaw]

I'm talking about the idea that some $599-1500 graphics cards announcements will suddenly be the catalyst to "kill Xbox."

It's just ridiculous.

It won't kill xbox, that is just silly, but those new nvidia prices were way cheaper than what people were expecting. i believe the 3070 is the equivalent of a 2080ti for like 500 bucks, that is like 700 bucks cheaper than i imagine a lot of people would of thought.

I believe a lot of people were looking at an xbox solution as a cheap option because the fears of the new cards were beyond ridiculous, now they are better, a lot better, still not cheap mind you, a lot of people have given up on the idea of the xbox

That is what it is really about.

there could of been potential hundreds of thousands or even millions of pc users that were thinking about jumping ship from pc to xbox now the cards are out and cheap, they are like ok its worth staying.

It has an effect on xbox, that's what people are saying.

 

[Dave_at_Home]

From my point of view this is really what happened. From a non-exclusive approach, SX really has no place on the market in a broad form, at least not in its current form.

If Sony on the one hand offers its experiences more than 3rd and a better experience in 3rd in an environment of high use of the I / O and PC offers all the experiences of SX and in addition to a better experience in all the sections, between the two they stray to SX until it becomes a totally substitute product, only dependent on people who want to save money.

Which would sink XBSX's point and eventually the big sales would end up on XBSS.

Anyway it is a personal opinion.

What plenty of people also miss out on is the potential of a new PSVR2 headset and controllers. I think we all know they're keeping that close to their chest. It'll be yet another compelling reason to go either just PS5, or PS5 and PC combo. Lets consider Sony's first-party pedigree for a moment. PS5 may end up being the superior VR experience if Sony throws their might behind it. Hell, the PS5 hardware itself seems to be tailor made for VR. Mark my words, Sony is going full throttle on VR. It's gonna be yet another way to further separate themselves from Xbox, while further offering even more of a compelling reason to pick up a PS5.

 

[kyliethicc]

My point is...

There's loads of people that won't PC game and it has nothing to do with the games.. but the fact it's a PC.

The experience is incredibly different as are the costs.

But why would a console buyer buy an Xbox over a PS5? It would have to be cost or games. Neither look great for Xbox currently.

And if someone is a PC gamer but wants a reason to also buy a console, PS5 has the games. Xbox not so much. I bet many PS4s were bought by PC users just for PS4 exclusives.

Its like how I use my PS4 mostly, but Nintendo made enough exclusives I wanted and so I bought a Switch too.

The only way PC users would also want a XSX is if the console was a huge price performance value. Otherwise they can just get the same games and similar to better performance via new parts for a similar cost.

They won't buy a PS5 for its power, but they might for its games. Same with Switch.

 

[Neo Blaster]

It’s out there guys

He saw a PS5? Like, IN FRONT OF HIM?

 

[IntentionalPun]

But why would a console buyer buy an Xbox over a PS5? It would have to be cost or games. Neither look great for Xbox currently.

Hasn't looked great for years.. yet plenty do.

Again, my point is... how do $600+ graphics cards change the math here? Nothing has really changed.. PC gaming is PC gaming.. MS's games have been on PC for years now.

If Xbox fails it wont' be because of graphics cards.

 

[kyliethicc]

It won't kill xbox, that is just silly, but those new nvidia prices were way cheaper than what people were expecting. i believe the 3070 is the equivalent of a 2080ti for like 500 bucks, that is like 700 bucks cheaper than i imagine a lot of people would of thought.

I believe a lot of people were looking at an xbox solution as a cheap option because the fears of the new cards were beyond ridiculous, now they are better, a lot better, still not cheap mind you, a lot of people have given up on the idea of the xbox

That is what it is really about.

there could of been potential hundreds of thousands or even millions of pc users that were thinking about jumping ship from pc to xbox now the cards are out and cheap, they are like ok its worth staying.

It has an effect on xbox, that's what people are saying.

Exactly, cause the Series X will match the gaming performance of the 2080 or even 2080 Super. Roughly.

Clearly some were hoping the XSX would be a $500 gateway into similar or higher performance levels as the 2080s, 4K 120 talk hype, etc.

But they were expecting Nvidia would want $800-$1000 for similar performance, so the 3070 for $500 surprised them.

 

[mejin]

MS will have to work hard I really doubt it all those 50M LTD will be back to XSX or XSS. They will lose some to pc and ps5.

 

[Leo_Barcellos]

I think it will be that way

 

[Bo_Hazem]

From my point of view this is really what happened. From a non-exclusive approach, SX really has no place on the market in a broad form, at least not in its current form.

If Sony on the one hand offers its experiences more than 3rd and a better experience in 3rd in an environment of high use of the I / O and PC offers all the experiences of SX and in addition to a better experience in all the sections, between the two they stray to SX until it becomes a totally substitute product, only dependent on people who want to save money.

Which would sink XBSX's point and eventually the big sales would end up on XBSS.

Anyway it is a personal opinion.

Well, selling consoles isn't their approach, they only spent all that R&D just for fun, according to Philly.

 

[jose4gg]

I think it will be that way

So PS5 is not even a 2070

These MF are a pain in the ass really...

 

[kyliethicc]

Hasn't looked great for years.. yet plenty do.

Again, my point is... how do $600+ graphics cards change the math here? Nothing has really changed.. PC gaming is PC gaming.. MS's games have been on PC for years now.

If Xbox fails it wont' be because of graphics cards.

Well, to me the Xbox 360 and One, PS2 and PS3 were similar in relationship.

Company disapoints over the gen, but still sells millions due to previous gen loyalty/memories.

PS2 sold 150m, PS3 bad launch, overpriced, only sold bit over half at 85m units.
360 sold 85m, XOne bad launch, overpriced, only sold bit over half at 50m units.

PS4 brought Sony back with a solid launch, price, great games. ~1.5x of the PS3.
XSX needs to be the PS4 of Xboxes. ~1.5x 50m for 75m or so units.

Microsoft don't have the highs of the 360 days to push units in the first few years anymore like they did in 2013-15.

 

[TherapistGaymer]

As you see I am only politely and briefly REPLYING WHEN QUOTED on the subject. Especially when someone goes into a lot of work trying to refute the points I make.
Its not something I care to discuss any further, and the amount of personal attacks and slurs instead of addressing a point with arguments is proof that this is clearly not the environment for technical discussions, unless its of "praise cerny" type.
About "showing the good things", even for this subject I wrote many times that even a 6 second loading time for a full level is very-very good, magnitudes of difference of where we are at right now.
But, it would really help if sony finally get to disclose some technical things about the ps5, to further talk about the "good things".

Now kindly prepare my Seal

 

[SlimySnake]

Even xbox shills can't bring themselves to be excited for xsx

lmao. they are all finally coming to grips with the new reality.

Sony fans need to revolt about sony putting their games on PC because trust me that is where they are going. do not take this lying down or we will be posting these dejected fucking tweets in a couple of years ourselves.

 

[TheGreatWhiteShark]

thats a decoy though :]
but anyway, in return I will prepare something very suitable for this scientific thread of deep "PS5 & XBOX ANALYSIS"

 

[kyliethicc]

I think it will be that way

Fixed it for you.

 

[Insane Metal]

I am too, gimme gold Bo

Lol I was joking, but thanks Bo! <3

 

[zaitsu]

Yup. XBox division simply cannot just bung out the Series X at a big loss per console - not like Sony did with the Ps3. The XBox One was, by all relevant metrics, a failure. They don't have the finances or the standing within the larger Microsoft family to lose a ton of cash on this console as well.

That's why they haven't released a price for it yet. They know it's going to be expensive, but my guess is they're hoping the Ps5 will be equally, or more expensive. Not so sure they're right about that.

It's pretty damned obvious BOTH consoles are going to be bloody pricey though. If the Ps5 was 399 again, they'd be singing it from the rooftops by now, as would XBox. I think Sony are waiting for an event when they can announce new games to soften the blow a bit. I have no idea whether XBox has the same intention, or whether they're just terrified of the market response to an expensive console with no exclusive games anyone wants to play.

PS5 DE must be 399 or 449 IMO.

...



I'd disagree. If a flying section is ~2 seconds but a running Ratchet who falls through and floats down is timed at ~6 seconds (because you wait for control to be given back to the player) then the ~2 seconds is more representative of the load times involved. One detailed world into another detailed world = 2 seconds. The same large amount of data around the player is being loaded, control is secondary.

I think it will be that way

I fixed that for you.

 

[Dave_at_Home]

I'm talking about the idea that some $599-1500 graphics cards announcements will suddenly be the catalyst to "kill Xbox."

It's just ridiculous.

As we all know, Nvidia is kind of petty. They literally called out Xbox in the Ampere showcase. What they managed to accomplish was crushing the " we've got 12 tflop flexing" bit Xbox had. No way in hell they'd let Microsoft live rent free in people's heads with the power narrative they've been hyping up for so long.

 

[TheGreatWhiteShark]

Fixed it for you.

there is a scale on this chart though. And where you plotted them does not even show the 18% TF difference, nor the 44% on CUs, not even the 25% bandwidth difference. Let alone all of those combined. And I even endow you the variable clockspeeds.
But I guess you probably must have added the "exclusives power" ingredient :]

Anyway, my video analysis is coming up, almost uploaded now

As we all know, Nvidia is kind of petty. They literally called out Xbox in the Ampere showcase. What they managed to accomplish was crushing the " we've got 12 tflop flexing" bit Xbox had. No way in hell they'd let Microsoft live rent free in people's heads with the power narrative they've been hyping up for so long.

If you are going to see it this way, they also crushed the ps5 ssd thingy, didn't they?
Just imagine how the ssd pc market will be in a year from now...

 

[Wraith Phantom]

Personally the benchmark game for me is Control.
Insane physics and interactive environments, beautiful graphics, great sound mix, etc.

The new RTX 3080 footage DF just showed of Control is insane.

Locked 60 FPS, with ray tracing, on high settings, using DLSS "balanced" mode at 1440p upscaled to 4K.

My PS4 Pro struggles to run Control at 30 FPS at 1080p with no ray tracing.

Remedy have said Control can run on PS5 via back compat. No RT, same as PS4, I assume.
There will also be a next-gen PS5 version of Control, that should have some RT.

I am super curious to see if the PS5 can run Control at 60 FPS with RT. And how it compares to a 2080, etc.
That game on a console at 60 Hz with RT, even at 1080p, thats the dream.

Control is an average game. Remedy are not elite devs. Control runs sub par on consoles.When theres nothing demanding outside throwing chairs.Infamous second son is open world has way more complexity & its buttery smooth. Remedy are not elite.

Infamous second son shits on control with no ray tracing. Control has frame drops turning left & right in a hallway ffs.Dead tank control game.
2013 launch game running rings around constant improved rtx game. You hate to see it.

 

[kyliethicc]

Control is an average game. Remedy are not elite devs. Control runs sub par on consoles.When theres nothing demanding outside throwing chairs.Infamous second son is open world has way more complexity & its buttery smooth. Remedy are not elite.

Infamous second son shits on control with no ray tracing. Control has frame drops turning left & right in a hallway ffs.Dead tank control game.
2013 launch game running rings around constant improved Improve rtx games. You hate to see it.

I've played both. Control's tech is insane and that game is way more fun. Work of art. Infamous was fine. The console performance sucks, but look at on PC at 60 Hz with ray tracing on. Its fucking beautiful.

 

[cudiye]

Control is an average game. Remedy are not elite devs. Control runs sub par on consoles.When theres nothing demanding outside throwing chairs.Infamous second son is open world has way more complexity & its buttery smooth. Remedy are not elite.

Infamous second son shits on control with no ray tracing. Control has frame drops turning left & right in a hallway ffs.Dead tank control game.
2013 launch game running rings around constant improved rtx game. You hate to see it.

who would’ve thought that a gaming consoles greatest asset are its first party devs.

 

[TheGreatWhiteShark]

I've played both. Control's tech is insane and that game is way more fun. Work of art. Infamous was fine. The console performance sucks, but look at on PC at 60 Hz with ray tracing on. Its fucking beautiful.

For when inFamous launched, and for what it launched on, many effects it has are equally impressive.
And Control is basically a "second generation" game, with refined tech and experience from their previous game, Quantum Break.
Imagine if instead of tsushima, sucker punch had spent these 6 whole years refining an "inFamous Third Son" for the ps4pro...

 

[TLZ]

Matric 2 had Monica belluscci. Persphone

WHAT A GOD DAMN WOMAN.

SPEAK NO EVIL

Just one kiss.

Oh Monica Bellucci. Mi amore.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I think it will be that way

 

[Snowdonhoffen]

You can't make this up

 

[TLZ]

This was one of my first:

Go home old man.

Spoiler

I had this

 

[ThaMonkeyClaw]

Something is happening soon, I just got another PS5 related email, hopefully they are getting ready to announce that price and preorder date!

 

[TLZ]

You can't make this up

I think he's joking.

 

[XO_o]