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Ps5 may support zen 3 feature

Krisprolls

Banned
If anything, Xbox fans are the ones believing in secret sauce when they think a very small advantage in hardware will make any difference on screen in multiplatform games, which is what matters here.

Both versions will look and run the same on every game.

There was a much bigger difference between PS4 Pro and XBO X and you could hardly see something on screen, so I don't know what you hope for here with 18 % difference maximum. This era is over, when you deal with dynamic 4k, upscaling from 1800p or 1900p is imperceptible.

It's a fact some hardware customization could make up for this small difference and even make the other platform better, but even that wouldn't make the versions look different.

What matters when hardware is so close is budget and talent. A 8K Craig will always look bad. Sony exclusives will always look better than anything on Xbox, like every gen.

You should have used all this posting energy to ask MS for launch exclusives.
 
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geordiemp

Member
So PS5 give the dev kits first, MS was way behind and somewhat there is newer HW in PS5?

Phil had an XSX last december in his house.

Hardware frame time and software driver / api / SDK frame time being good are not the same things.

Also why would CPU having the clusters together or joined be new ecactly ?-

XSX has the 2 CPU clusters very far apart on silicon - why is that is the real question.
 
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rnlval

Member
The unified L3 Cache on the CPU is almost certain. Matt circled around his NDA, but he did hint at it in one of his tweet, indicating that the latency gains would be more important than a small frequency delta. The geometry engine is also highly customized, and, as has been rumoured, one of the main rendering drivers of the system. Nothing really new in that video, but it presents a nice summary of some of the particulars of the system.
It depends on RGT's interpretation since PC APU Zen 2 also has lower latency which counters the smaller 8MB L3 cache size.
 

M1chl

Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Sources ? Phil had an XSX last december in his house.

Hardware frame time and software driver / api / SDK frame time being good are not the same things.
There was some rumors, I think even Keighley tweeted out, that Xbox Series X dev kits got into hands of devs at later date than PS5. I mean I am sadly on the phone, so searching is quite difficult. But I am somewhat sure of it. I think even NXGamer NXGamer talked about it with that API video, where it triggered some users. Honestly I am writing this from the head, but you know I am sure which means shit
 

geordiemp

Member
There was some rumors, I think even Keighley tweeted out, that Xbox Series X dev kits got into hands of devs at later date than PS5. I mean I am sadly on the phone, so searching is quite difficult. But I am somewhat sure of it. I think even NXGamer NXGamer talked about it with that API video, where it triggered some users. Honestly I am writing this from the head, but you know I am sure which means shit

Dev kits being late could be software / api related, it does noty mean the silicon was late.

Hence phil having XSX last december unless he was lieing of course.

Cant be late hardware design and retail unit in december at the bosses house, one has to be incorrect.
 
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M1chl

Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Dev kits being late could be software / api related, it does noty mean the silicon was late.

Hence phil having XSX last december unless he was lieing of course.

Cant be late hardware design and retail unit in december at the bosses house, one has to be incorrect.
But we don't know when PS5 was out there, because Sony does not really talk that much.
 

assurdum

Banned
he is full of shit. The same as this Roberto guy, uk Fox gamer. Or whatever all those wannabe insiders are called that know nothing at all and are just guessing.
the only reason why he is mentioned here is because fanboys love to eat his shit up.
he even said that PS5 has RDNA 3.0 features lol
Don’t believe his lies
Come on now. He said even worth things, he can't be right all the time, that's normal can be wrong with a lot of guesses, it's part of the game.
 

assurdum

Banned
The guesses and rumors usually pertain to "custom features" that, by the nature of us not knowing a lot about them (due to lack of documentation), would make them, essentially, secret sauce. And the implication of such things is usually almost always to suggest whatever is featuring them, to somehow leapfrog over whatever seemingly doesn't have said features. These things are never directly stated but that's kind of not the point.

And I didn't mean to say the definition of "power" has been transferred in a literal sense. It's more like, the interpretation of "power" going from a more strict, literal, traditional definition (i.e teraflops), to a more loose, relative, non-traditional definition. Generally, since the primary motivating factors behind ascribing aspects of a system design traditionally associated with the power narrative (GPU) was to assert that whichever won that narrative to be the "better" system, what we've observed since late March is a certain contingent of people shifting the interpretation of power into other aspects of a system's design, such as the SSD, to therein frame their talking points around using these new elements that fall outside of the traditional metrics, as being the new deciding factors of what design is supposedly superior.

However, it can't be helped that almost anytime these metrics are changed up, it tends to follow a pattern of benefiting a particular platform, at the expense of a particular other platform, and that pattern's held consistent for months. Moreover, the same desires that tend to have motivated the framing of "power" in the traditional sense (aka to assert superiority of whatever platform's GPU was the stronger of the two), are the EXACT same desires that have been fueling the shifts of changing around the terms of "power" to more contextual, relative terms fitting for other metrics of measure, usually with the pattern of being in preference of a particular platform/brand, and to shift narratives into a direction that fits these new metrics of focus.

As far as I'm concerned, these latest rounds of PS5 RDNA 3 rumors are just more of the same thing, just a bit more refined. The biggest irony being some of these same people (like RGT in this video) assert that Sony's strategy isn't to harp on the technical features anymore and "let the games do the talking"...so why are people like RGT so adamant in doing the complete opposite? Well, it's likely because for them, the general idea of the power narrative is still important to these types to win for their preferred platform, so conjuring new speculations that seemingly put their preferred platform in a more "advanced" light helps to fulfill and satisfy this desire that's within them, and can be done in a way that doesn't necessarily force their preference to the forefront (as that could then amplify into a bias that can be more easily interpreted as a negative bias towards whatever doesn't fall into being their preferred platform/brand, and ruins the image of neutrality they wish to maintain).



We might, actually.

Pretty much all of the GPUs AMD showed off can have Boost clocks of over 2 GHz. Cerny spoke of PS5's GPU clock as a "continuous Boost mode" at Road to PS5. AMD are introducing SmartShift with RDNA2 including a variant that mimics what Sony is doing on the PS5 WRT variable frequency between the CPU and GPU.

Care to take a guess what the feature is? Let's be logical about it: the feature is very likely the variable frequency through stuff like SmartShift and the other thing AMD talked about on Wednesday (I forgot the name) which allows for dynamic power sharing between their CPUs and discrete GPUs.

The signs are literally right in people's faces but they are drunk on some fantastical unicorn of hype RDNA 3 features, even though RDNA 3 won't even arrive until early 2022 🤷‍♂️



I agree that RGT is a much more credible lad than MLiD and Moore's more or less made some of the dumbest guesses regarding some aspects of the next-gen console designs I've seen around. However that doesn't mean RGT is impervious to bad speculation or having bad sources on certain things.

What I find too perplexing in all of this is, why are we relying on random secret devs to parlay these supposed features to us, this late towards the early phase of the systems right before they launch, and yet even with these sort of things they're as vague as they've ever been? It simply doesn't stack up too well in my book.

In the latest vid he's seemingly making reference to Sony in-house features that could've been plucked by AMD for RDNA 3...seeing that Sony likely shot first in finalizing their spec earlier, wouldn't that have given AMD enough time to include some of these same things in...RDNA 2? Especially if they're seemingly so good, why leave that performance on the table when they could take it to Nvidia even moreso, sooner? I don't think they would be so chaotic as to tell Sony "Hey! Look we're gonna hold off on putting any of your features in our GPUs for a couple years, 'kay?". If Sony's partnership with AMD is so strong, surely Sony would've been helpful in implementing these features into AMD's GPU designs sooner rather than later, correct?

So, the timeline on that front is completely botched and these latest rounds of speculation are hurt massively because of that when it comes to credibility. In fact, take a look at bitbydeath bitbydeath 's quote from Cerny from Road to PS5. Cerny clearly referred to GPUs coming to the market at the time of PS5's launch, not two years down the line. So...what feature does Sony have, that we've also seen from AMD's GPU lineup for RDNA 2, that seem similar, and therefore would indicate a successful collaboration?

Welp, it's variable frequency. AMD has their own variable frequency setup for their Zen 3 CPUs and RDNA 2 GPUs that is part of the reason their GPUs can hit such high frequencies at Boost mode clocks. That's very likely what Cerny was hinting at when you look at the timeline and the likelihood of things. However, even guys like RGT are so far up in the clouds with these other "exotic, fantastical features" that they can't see the forest from the trees on this one.
I don't get it. Even IF he could be right, the table wouldn't be reversed, it's interesting try to grasp what are the custom part on ps5, because it seems a lot more customized. The question is why so many people are solely focused to lead the conversation about how it is reflect in the power front when he barely talks about it? There are definitely part which seems inspired (or are inspired) to the zen 3 cache and infinity cache, it's normal try to presume if there is something of " "physical" similar in the ps5.
 
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Snake29

RSI Employee of the Year
I'm pretty sure Sony would tell us if they had any support for RDNA 3 features. But if a youtuber says so I guess it's true!

Well Cerny said their implementations could be seen in "future AMD" cards. He can't talk about RDNA3, since it's not even officially announced outside of the roadmap.
 

WildBoy

Member
XSX showing only XONE/X360 looking games isn’t helping its case of being more powerful considering PS5 has shown some unbelievably good looking games such as Horizon 2, Project Athia and the UE5 demo.

This is what makes these rumours believable. If it weren’t for the games we’ve seen most would shrug it off.

Horizon 2 was all cut scene. Project Athia is vapourware and UE5 is a tech demo....

I don't see any unbelievably good looking games from either of them yet.
 

assurdum

Banned
Horizon 2 was all cut scene. Project Athia is vapourware and UE5 is a tech demo....

I don't see any unbelievably good looking games from either of them yet.
UE5 was a playable demo developed in 9 months (if I'm not wrong) with a limited staff of people . If you don't see any of unbelievably good about it, I don't know what else should convince you.
 
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Armorian

Banned
So PS5 give the dev kits first, MS was way behind and somewhat there is newer HW in PS5?

Pro launched year before X1X and had "newer" GPU (with FP16 double performance implemented in Vega). It was weaker and killed by low memory BW so no one gives a fuck but Sony so far had newer AMD tech in their consoles.
 

assurdum

Banned
Pro launched year before X1X and had "newer" GPU (with FP16 double performance implemented in Vega). It was weaker and killed by low memory BW so no one gives a fuck but Sony so far had newer AMD tech in their consoles.
Indeed personally I find the PS4 pro a very respectable hardware especially considered it was weaker and an year older. There are games which runs better and it is paradoxical (though at lower res.of course).
 

vkbest

Member
Phil had an XSX last december in his house.

Hardware frame time and software driver / api / SDK frame time being good are not the same things.

Also why would CPU having the clusters together or joined be new ecactly ?-

XSX has the 2 CPU clusters very far apart on silicon - why is that is the real question.

I didn't know they are using multi processor, that is because they are using the server variant?
 
SonyGAF trying it'd hardest to downplay less CU, CPU frequency, RAM bandwidth and less SSD space for same price as XSX by inventing bs facts to give PS5 a positive spin.

Did I mention slow PSN servers?

In reality:

PS5 fans are trying to have civilized conversations about tech and speculate about possibilities

Xbox fans: herp'n'derp secret sause lmao!! You lost!! There is nothing more!! Xsex.is da best! It sells just because 12tflops!! 10 vs 12 is like 100000% difference lol!!11

Why speculating future is so difficult concept? And why it have to be competition? If speculations are right = good, if they are wrong = nothing special in tech world.

It is childish and non-intelligent to turn everything into war and dismis every speculation as some kind of attempt to win

Look in the mirror if you see these topics as some kind of Ps5 DaMAGeConTrol instead of tech talk
 

Rolla

Banned
Some people are still stuck on winning a power narrative even if they told themselves they were over it earlier in the year, simply by conveniently shifting the definition of "power" to an ever-widening scale of applicable metrics. Now it's Zen 3 unified cache. Tomorrow, it could be a special block of ReRAM on the Toshiba NAND modules.

It's like a roulette wheel on The Price is Right; you never really win big but if you're even halfway competent you won't flat-out lose everything on a bad spin, either. Take the 50/50 and see what kind of sticks.

Every single piece of information demonstrates, emphatically, that the "Power Narrative" simply doesn't exist beyond the borders of a hardcore gamers discussion.
 
In reality:

PS5 fans are trying to have civilized conversations about tech and speculate about possibilities

Xbox fans: herp'n'derp secret sause lmao!! You lost!! There is nothing more!! Xsex.is da best! It sells just because 12tflops!! 10 vs 12 is like 100000% difference lol!!11

Why speculating future is so difficult concept? And why it have to be competition? If speculations are right = good, if they are wrong = nothing special in tech world.

It is childish and non-intelligent to turn everything into war and dismis every speculation as some kind of attempt to win

Look in the mirror if you see these topics as some kind of Ps5 DaMAGeConTrol instead of tech talk

They kind of are, though. And here's the thing about speculation: there's a time and a place. Back in fall of 2019, when we had no official confirmation of anything and the consoles were a year away, pretty much any speculation was valid because no one actually knew anything. The closest we had to official info were leaks on Github, found through data-mining. That was the only hard data we had but there was enough still left open to allow for a sea of other speculation even surrounding what the leaks had, let alone other aspects of the consoles not mentioned in the leaks.

Then, gradually, we started getting confirmations, like MS mentioning Series X was 12 TF at TGA. And almost just as quickly, new rumors conveniently springing forth that it wasn't "really" 12 TF, that they were stating 12 TF of relative GCN performance so they were closer to 9 or 10 TF. Why? Well, because even earlier rumors from some insiders said the systems were close in power, and since the Github stuff had already happened then the assumed conclusion was that MS weren't speaking about the actual RDNA number. There was even doubt cast over if it was RDNA 2, even back in December 2019. And what did so many people (mainly a lot of Sony people) say back then? "Wait for MS to officially confirm."

Which turns out was a perfectly valid thing, but you already see where this is going. Eventually MS did confirm it was 12 TF of RDNA 2, and then we started seeing new rumors pop up that the PS5 was actually also 12 TF, even 13 TF, even 13.3 TF, even maybe 15 TF! Wonder what sparked those rumors to suddenly appear :pie_thinking: ? It didn't help that you had various insiders like Matt, OsirisBlack etc. pretty much VERY quickly be dismissive of the Github leaks (and subsequent data) in absolute terms; this swayed the vast majority to also dismiss Github and if you even referenced the Github stuff even as a supplemental to what the insiders were trying to push at the time, you risked catching a ban.

Almost all of the rumors, speculation etc. around PS5 would focus dominantly on TF all the way up to late March, once the Road to PS5 event happened. Keep in mind, the vast majority of insiders still stuck to their guns regarding PS5 TF even by the time of the show, this also included people like Jason Schreir. The only insider I recall giving a TF estimate for PS5 that was pretty close to what actually came to be was Heisenberg, but he never stuck with that statement, mainly due out of fear from backlash. So Road to PS5 happens, and almost immediately the narrative shifts from TF (where it had been for months), to the SSD and 3D audio, and new rounds of rumors, speculation etc. hinged on those aspects of the consoles.

You can probably guess why a lot of those rumors came about: because most of the people who were churning them out, had a good feeling these were areas the PS5 had an advantage in, and areas the Series X was weak in, at least in terms of paper specs. The fact MS did a blog dump for Series X mentioning the SSD bandwidth, then Sony doing their own SSD I/O breakdown at Road to PS5, affirming at least one of the earlier rumors as being true (out of a sea that were ultimately false), played into this. It even would get to a point where rumors surrounding Series X said it didn't have dedicated audio hardware, or that the memory system was "split" and MS would never really hit 560 GB/s. Some took that and ran with it, even claiming effective Series X bandwidth would be around PS4's level!

By the way, quick aside: at this point more than enough ridiculous rumors surrounding Series X were about, yet I don't recall channels like RGT dedicating near hour-long videos to disprove these particular rumors and speculations...just saying 🤷‍♂️ ...

Anyway back on topic; as you can see, the nature of rumors and speculation for the longest time regarding these systems has always, by and large (with some exceptions) always favored Sony and PS5. That's how the vast majority of insiders have played it, and that's how the vast majority of people discussing the systems have come to prefer to view it, even if the reality isn't as the rumors and speculation try saying. And that's ultimately the problem: the nature of these rumors and speculation have ever-increasingly changed into an echo chamber of reinforcing one's preferred fantasy, in spite of what a simpler reality suggests to be the case.

Generally, as the launch of new consoles draws near, the reality should become dominant, for obvious and logical reasons. But it seems that is only by and large happening with people discussing the Xbox platforms, from what I've been noticing. We should also look at the timing of when some of these rounds of PS5 rumors and speculation pop up: they're almost always usually timed whenever some type of perceived good news pertaining to the Series systems (on a technological level) manifest. I still remember a lot of people saying "wait until the end of October" for us to get the full rundown on PS5 specs, since Sony wouldn't be bound by NDAs any further.

Well, October came, but it turned out not to be the case, did it? Instead we have some of the same insiders once again regurgitating old rumors in new coats of paint, with details that are just as overall murky as they were when these rumors and speculation first popped up, despite a great deal of time having passed. And once again the angle of these "new" rumors and speculation take on the form of implicating some type of strength for Sony and PS5, this time in the form of "custom solutions", that are supposedly much better than what AMD themselves were able to come up with (along with their partners) for RDNA 2, despite the fact that if these technologies were so much better....why would AMD not use them for RDNA 2? If these features are instead RDNA 3, why would AMD not find ways to pull them ahead into RDNA 2? If RDNA 3 is over a year away, doesn't that suggest they are still in early phases, so how would Sony have gotten implementation of RDNA 3 features if even AMD aren't 100% sure how those features would be implemented? If Sony indeed finalized their spec before Microsoft (the fact their devkits have been consistently more mature than MS's heavily suggests this), would that not have given AMD more than enough time to gleam what custom features Sony had they could then implement in RDNA 2?

Because here's the truth of it, all console warrior BS aside. Look at this quote from Mark Cerny from Road to PS5:

If you see a similar discrete GPU available as a PC card at roughly the same time as we release our console that means our collaboration with AMD succeeded.

That gives us an exact time frame to work with. What PC cards would this be? RDNA 2. When is the PS5 releasing? Next week. When are these RDNA 2 cards going to start releasing? Sometime this month. Some may be December but...that would still fit the timeline Cerny gives here.

What seems to be a common trend with the RDNA 2 cards? 2 GHz+ Game and Boost clocks. What clock is the PS5 GPU at? 2.23 GHz. What was one feature AMD focused on last Wednesday? Dynamic sharing of power between CPU and GPU to push very high clocks at Boost modes. What did Cerny describe the PS5 GPU as in terms of clock? A "continuous Boost mode". What does AMD's description of power load sharing between their CPUs and GPUs sound like? Variable frequency. What has Sony called their setup? Variable frequency. What allowed Sony to break past 2 GHz GPU clocks? Switching from fixed frequency to variable frequency. What is one thing we've consistently seen between the Ariel and Oberon GPU revisions? Increasing GPU clocks. What is one thing Sony have said they designed the PS5 with in mind from the beginning? High GPU clocks.

Like, c'mon, the evidence is right in your face. It's right in RGT's face, right in MLiD's face, or whoever other's face falls into the trap of trying to push some crazy speculation regarding some super-crazy RDNA 3 features on PS5. You have the fruit of Sony and AMD's collaboration being successful staring you right in the eye, and manifest with RDNA 2 GPUs on the way, but because it doesn't fit the typical power narrative or typical "secret sauce" idea, you are not seeing the forest from the trees.

This has nothing to do with fanboyism; at least on my end, it's all about looking at the reality for what it is. Any specific features Sony wanted to highlight regarding PS5, were already a focus during Road to PS5. What guys like RGT, MLiD etc. are doing is trying to keep a certain narrative going strong by spinning up old rumors and marrying them with yet more speculation, teases, etc. that have been more recent. Yet virtually none of the stuff they are bringing up, with a week or so to go before launch, have in ANY way been confirmed officially by Sony, and this is with the additional understanding that they aren't really beholden to strict AMD NDAs anymore to even make a blanket statement of official feature support, the way MS have for example.

Chances are some of these guys aren't connecting the dots because they have tunnel vision, but that's me being generous. After all, the variable frequency stuff isn't "new" anymore, it's been known for months, so how would you drive traffic to your channel by going further into that, knowing in order to go further in, you'd have to start getting into VERY particular details that could be beyond your scope of understanding?

That's the way I'm looking this now. The clothes are slowly falling off.

Well looking at the PS5 apu being highly rectangular its most probable the CPU clusters are together and as such it would be perfectly logical for ps5 to have a common CPU L3 cache even if it is 8 MB in size. If the upgrade was available and no extra die space cost, then it is clear Sony would take it.

For XSX layout, the option is not there anyway as the CPU halves are effectively miles apart in silicon terms.

Also, XSX is designed witha server class CPU, so MS were clearly primarily interested in running 4 games with the CPU design.


UXwsr88.jpg

This sounds like a spin of what MLiD said in their latest video, but he (as usual) went into instigating that this was MS not developing a console with "next generation game design" in mind. It's actually kind of a ridiculous notion to push on his end because there's no way to conclude that from a system being designed to run 4 1080p game instances simultaneously (plus I don't think you'd need to physically separate the L3$ on the CPU in order to enable this; you could virtualize banks of cache on the L3$ mapping each instance to a slice within it if desired, for example), and it's not like console design is an either/or game, either: you can realistically do both.

AFAIK the PS5 is only confirmed to run one game instance on its design setup; you could easily take MLiD's point and flip it against PS5; if it can't run multiple game instances on the same system simultaneously, does that mean it's not a next-gen system design? It was a really bad assertion on MLiD's part because he didn't think about it to its logical conclusion, because he's kind of a fanboy :S
 
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rnlval

Member
Pro launched year before X1X and had "newer" GPU (with FP16 double performance implemented in Vega). It was weaker and killed by low memory BW so no one gives a fuck but Sony so far had newer AMD tech in their consoles.
PS4 Pro has Rapid Pack Math CU while X1X's ROPS has 2MB render cache and VRS like feature.

Both PS4 Pro and XSX GPUs have Polaris 10's 2MB L2 cache connected to TMUs.

The real Vega 56/64 has 4MB L2 cache connected to TMU and ROPS.
 
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WildBoy

Member
They kind of are, though. And here's the thing about speculation: there's a time and a place. Back in fall of 2019, when we had no official confirmation of anything and the consoles were a year away, pretty much any speculation was valid because no one actually knew anything. The closest we had to official info were leaks on Github, found through data-mining. That was the only hard data we had but there was enough still left open to allow for a sea of other speculation even surrounding what the leaks had, let alone other aspects of the consoles not mentioned in the leaks.

Then, gradually, we started getting confirmations, like MS mentioning Series X was 12 TF at TGA. And almost just as quickly, new rumors conveniently springing forth that it wasn't "really" 12 TF, that they were stating 12 TF of relative GCN performance so they were closer to 9 or 10 TF. Why? Well, because even earlier rumors from some insiders said the systems were close in power, and since the Github stuff had already happened then the assumed conclusion was that MS weren't speaking about the actual RDNA number. There was even doubt cast over if it was RDNA 2, even back in December 2019. And what did so many people (mainly a lot of Sony people) say back then? "Wait for MS to officially confirm."

Which turns out was a perfectly valid thing, but you already see where this is going. Eventually MS did confirm it was 12 TF of RDNA 2, and then we started seeing new rumors pop up that the PS5 was actually also 12 TF, even 13 TF, even 13.3 TF, even maybe 15 TF! Wonder what sparked those rumors to suddenly appear :pie_thinking: ? It didn't help that you had various insiders like Matt, OsirisBlack etc. pretty much VERY quickly be dismissive of the Github leaks (and subsequent data) in absolute terms; this swayed the vast majority to also dismiss Github and if you even referenced the Github stuff even as a supplemental to what the insiders were trying to push at the time, you risked catching a ban.

Almost all of the rumors, speculation etc. around PS5 would focus dominantly on TF all the way up to late March, once the Road to PS5 event happened. Keep in mind, the vast majority of insiders still stuck to their guns regarding PS5 TF even by the time of the show, this also included people like Jason Schreir. The only insider I recall giving a TF estimate for PS5 that was pretty close to what actually came to be was Heisenberg, but he never stuck with that statement, mainly due out of fear from backlash. So Road to PS5 happens, and almost immediately the narrative shifts from TF (where it had been for months), to the SSD and 3D audio, and new rounds of rumors, speculation etc. hinged on those aspects of the consoles.

You can probably guess why a lot of those rumors came about: because most of the people who were churning them out, had a good feeling these were areas the PS5 had an advantage in, and areas the Series X was weak in, at least in terms of paper specs. The fact MS did a blog dump for Series X mentioning the SSD bandwidth, then Sony doing their own SSD I/O breakdown at Road to PS5, affirming at least one of the earlier rumors as being true (out of a sea that were ultimately false), played into this. It even would get to a point where rumors surrounding Series X said it didn't have dedicated audio hardware, or that the memory system was "split" and MS would never really hit 560 GB/s. Some took that and ran with it, even claiming effective Series X bandwidth would be around PS4's level!

By the way, quick aside: at this point more than enough ridiculous rumors surrounding Series X were about, yet I don't recall channels like RGT dedicating near hour-long videos to disprove these particular rumors and speculations...just saying 🤷‍♂️ ...

Anyway back on topic; as you can see, the nature of rumors and speculation for the longest time regarding these systems has always, by and large (with some exceptions) always favored Sony and PS5. That's how the vast majority of insiders have played it, and that's how the vast majority of people discussing the systems have come to prefer to view it, even if the reality isn't as the rumors and speculation try saying. And that's ultimately the problem: the nature of these rumors and speculation have ever-increasingly changed into an echo chamber of reinforcing one's preferred fantasy, in spite of what a simpler reality suggests to be the case.

Generally, as the launch of new consoles draws near, the reality should become dominant, for obvious and logical reasons. But it seems that is only by and large happening with people discussing the Xbox platforms, from what I've been noticing. We should also look at the timing of when some of these rounds of PS5 rumors and speculation pop up: they're almost always usually timed whenever some type of perceived good news pertaining to the Series systems (on a technological level) manifest. I still remember a lot of people saying "wait until the end of October" for us to get the full rundown on PS5 specs, since Sony wouldn't be bound by NDAs any further.

Well, October came, but it turned out not to be the case, did it? Instead we have some of the same insiders once again regurgitating old rumors in new coats of paint, with details that are just as overall murky as they were when these rumors and speculation first popped up, despite a great deal of time having passed. And once again the angle of these "new" rumors and speculation take on the form of implicating some type of strength for Sony and PS5, this time in the form of "custom solutions", that are supposedly much better than what AMD themselves were able to come up with (along with their partners) for RDNA 2, despite the fact that if these technologies were so much better....why would AMD not use them for RDNA 2? If these features are instead RDNA 3, why would AMD not find ways to pull them ahead into RDNA 2? If RDNA 3 is over a year away, doesn't that suggest they are still in early phases, so how would Sony have gotten implementation of RDNA 3 features if even AMD aren't 100% sure how those features would be implemented? If Sony indeed finalized their spec before Microsoft (the fact their devkits have been consistently more mature than MS's heavily suggests this), would that not have given AMD more than enough time to gleam what custom features Sony had they could then implement in RDNA 2?

Because here's the truth of it, all console warrior BS aside. Look at this quote from Mark Cerny from Road to PS5:



That gives us an exact time frame to work with. What PC cards would this be? RDNA 2. When is the PS5 releasing? Next week. When are these RDNA 2 cards going to start releasing? Sometime this month. Some may be December but...that would still fit the timeline Cerny gives here.

What seems to be a common trend with the RDNA 2 cards? 2 GHz+ Game and Boost clocks. What clock is the PS5 GPU at? 2.23 GHz. What was one feature AMD focused on last Wednesday? Dynamic sharing of power between CPU and GPU to push very high clocks at Boost modes. What did Cerny describe the PS5 GPU as in terms of clock? A "continuous Boost mode". What does AMD's description of power load sharing between their CPUs and GPUs sound like? Variable frequency. What has Sony called their setup? Variable frequency. What allowed Sony to break past 2 GHz GPU clocks? Switching from fixed frequency to variable frequency. What is one thing we've consistently seen between the Ariel and Oberon GPU revisions? Increasing GPU clocks. What is one thing Sony have said they designed the PS5 with in mind from the beginning? High GPU clocks.

Like, c'mon, the evidence is right in your face. It's right in RGT's face, right in MLiD's face, or whoever other's face falls into the trap of trying to push some crazy speculation regarding some super-crazy RDNA 3 features on PS5. You have the fruit of Sony and AMD's collaboration being successful staring you right in the eye, and manifest with RDNA 2 GPUs on the way, but because it doesn't fit the typical power narrative or typical "secret sauce" idea, you are not seeing the forest from the trees.

This has nothing to do with fanboyism; at least on my end, it's all about looking at the reality for what it is. Any specific features Sony wanted to highlight regarding PS5, were already a focus during Road to PS5. What guys like RGT, MLiD etc. are doing is trying to keep a certain narrative going strong by spinning up old rumors and marrying them with yet more speculation, teases, etc. that have been more recent. Yet virtually none of the stuff they are bringing up, with a week or so to go before launch, have in ANY way been confirmed officially by Sony, and this is with the additional understanding that they aren't really beholden to strict AMD NDAs anymore to even make a blanket statement of official feature support, the way MS have for example.

Chances are some of these guys aren't connecting the dots because they have tunnel vision, but that's me being generous. After all, the variable frequency stuff isn't "new" anymore, it's been known for months, so how would you drive traffic to your channel by going further into that, knowing in order to go further in, you'd have to start getting into VERY particular details that could be beyond your scope of understanding?

That's the way I'm looking this now. The clothes are slowly falling off.



This sounds like a spin of what MLiD said in their latest video, but he (as usual) went into instigating that this was MS not developing a console with "next generation game design" in mind. It's actually kind of a ridiculous notion to push on his end because there's no way to conclude that from a system being designed to run 4 1080p game instances simultaneously (plus I don't think you'd need to physically separate the L3$ on the CPU in order to enable this; you could virtualize banks of cache on the L3$ mapping each instance to a slice within it if desired, for example), and it's not like console design is an either/or game, either: you can realistically do both.

AFAIK the PS5 is only confirmed to run one game instance on its design setup; you could easily take MLiD's point and flip it against PS5; if it can't run multiple game instances on the same system simultaneously, does that mean it's not a next-gen system design? It was a really bad assertion on MLiD's part because he didn't think about it to its logical conclusion, because he's kind of a fanboy :S

Phenomenal post!
 

rnlval

Member


About zen 3 unified cache and source

According to Redgamingtech who is pretty much well known. On hes youtube around 21.25 he states that ps5 is using zen 2 cores but has 8mb L3 unified cache which u would find on the new zen 3 processors according to hes sources abit further on he states that there is some form of infinite cache on the gpu but its not that same as u would find on the desktop version

So if its true then u could find that the cpu on ps5 could be abit better then xsx despite 100mhz dofference
FYI, Note that Infinity Cache's 128 MB value is four times of XBO's 32 MB ESRAM which can handle 1600x900p frame buffer without tiling.

When delta color compression (DCC) is combined with 128 MB, it yields 128 MB SRAM cache that can handle 4K resolution frame buffer.

4K resolution is four times of 1080p resolution.

128 MB value was carefully picked for 4K resolution.

No RDNA 2 based game console was 4K optimized at the same level as BiG NAVI.

Infinity Cache's 128 MB consumes about 100 mm2 area and PS5's APU chip area is about 310 mm2.

RX 5700 XT has 252 mm2 chip area.
 
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geordiemp

Member
They kind of are, though. And here's the thing about speculation: there's a time and a place. Back in fall of 2019, when we had no official confirmation of anything and the consoles were a year away, pretty much any speculation was valid because no one actually knew anything. The closest we had to official info were leaks on Github, found through data-mining. That was the only hard data we had but there was enough still left open to allow for a sea of other speculation even surrounding what the leaks had, let alone other aspects of the consoles not mentioned in the leaks.

Then, gradually, we started getting confirmations, like MS mentioning Series X was 12 TF at TGA. And almost just as quickly, new rumors conveniently springing forth that it wasn't "really" 12 TF, that they were stating 12 TF of relative GCN performance so they were closer to 9 or 10 TF. Why? Well, because even earlier rumors from some insiders said the systems were close in power, and since the Github stuff had already happened then the assumed conclusion was that MS weren't speaking about the actual RDNA number. There was even doubt cast over if it was RDNA 2, even back in December 2019. And what did so many people (mainly a lot of Sony people) say back then? "Wait for MS to officially confirm."

Which turns out was a perfectly valid thing, but you already see where this is going. Eventually MS did confirm it was 12 TF of RDNA 2, and then we started seeing new rumors pop up that the PS5 was actually also 12 TF, even 13 TF, even 13.3 TF, even maybe 15 TF! Wonder what sparked those rumors to suddenly appear :pie_thinking: ? It didn't help that you had various insiders like Matt, OsirisBlack etc. pretty much VERY quickly be dismissive of the Github leaks (and subsequent data) in absolute terms; this swayed the vast majority to also dismiss Github and if you even referenced the Github stuff even as a supplemental to what the insiders were trying to push at the time, you risked catching a ban.

Almost all of the rumors, speculation etc. around PS5 would focus dominantly on TF all the way up to late March, once the Road to PS5 event happened. Keep in mind, the vast majority of insiders still stuck to their guns regarding PS5 TF even by the time of the show, this also included people like Jason Schreir. The only insider I recall giving a TF estimate for PS5 that was pretty close to what actually came to be was Heisenberg, but he never stuck with that statement, mainly due out of fear from backlash. So Road to PS5 happens, and almost immediately the narrative shifts from TF (where it had been for months), to the SSD and 3D audio, and new rounds of rumors, speculation etc. hinged on those aspects of the consoles.

You can probably guess why a lot of those rumors came about: because most of the people who were churning them out, had a good feeling these were areas the PS5 had an advantage in, and areas the Series X was weak in, at least in terms of paper specs. The fact MS did a blog dump for Series X mentioning the SSD bandwidth, then Sony doing their own SSD I/O breakdown at Road to PS5, affirming at least one of the earlier rumors as being true (out of a sea that were ultimately false), played into this. It even would get to a point where rumors surrounding Series X said it didn't have dedicated audio hardware, or that the memory system was "split" and MS would never really hit 560 GB/s. Some took that and ran with it, even claiming effective Series X bandwidth would be around PS4's level!

By the way, quick aside: at this point more than enough ridiculous rumors surrounding Series X were about, yet I don't recall channels like RGT dedicating near hour-long videos to disprove these particular rumors and speculations...just saying 🤷‍♂️ ...

Anyway back on topic; as you can see, the nature of rumors and speculation for the longest time regarding these systems has always, by and large (with some exceptions) always favored Sony and PS5. That's how the vast majority of insiders have played it, and that's how the vast majority of people discussing the systems have come to prefer to view it, even if the reality isn't as the rumors and speculation try saying. And that's ultimately the problem: the nature of these rumors and speculation have ever-increasingly changed into an echo chamber of reinforcing one's preferred fantasy, in spite of what a simpler reality suggests to be the case.

Generally, as the launch of new consoles draws near, the reality should become dominant, for obvious and logical reasons. But it seems that is only by and large happening with people discussing the Xbox platforms, from what I've been noticing. We should also look at the timing of when some of these rounds of PS5 rumors and speculation pop up: they're almost always usually timed whenever some type of perceived good news pertaining to the Series systems (on a technological level) manifest. I still remember a lot of people saying "wait until the end of October" for us to get the full rundown on PS5 specs, since Sony wouldn't be bound by NDAs any further.

Well, October came, but it turned out not to be the case, did it? Instead we have some of the same insiders once again regurgitating old rumors in new coats of paint, with details that are just as overall murky as they were when these rumors and speculation first popped up, despite a great deal of time having passed. And once again the angle of these "new" rumors and speculation take on the form of implicating some type of strength for Sony and PS5, this time in the form of "custom solutions", that are supposedly much better than what AMD themselves were able to come up with (along with their partners) for RDNA 2, despite the fact that if these technologies were so much better....why would AMD not use them for RDNA 2? If these features are instead RDNA 3, why would AMD not find ways to pull them ahead into RDNA 2? If RDNA 3 is over a year away, doesn't that suggest they are still in early phases, so how would Sony have gotten implementation of RDNA 3 features if even AMD aren't 100% sure how those features would be implemented? If Sony indeed finalized their spec before Microsoft (the fact their devkits have been consistently more mature than MS's heavily suggests this), would that not have given AMD more than enough time to gleam what custom features Sony had they could then implement in RDNA 2?

Because here's the truth of it, all console warrior BS aside. Look at this quote from Mark Cerny from Road to PS5:



That gives us an exact time frame to work with. What PC cards would this be? RDNA 2. When is the PS5 releasing? Next week. When are these RDNA 2 cards going to start releasing? Sometime this month. Some may be December but...that would still fit the timeline Cerny gives here.

What seems to be a common trend with the RDNA 2 cards? 2 GHz+ Game and Boost clocks. What clock is the PS5 GPU at? 2.23 GHz. What was one feature AMD focused on last Wednesday? Dynamic sharing of power between CPU and GPU to push very high clocks at Boost modes. What did Cerny describe the PS5 GPU as in terms of clock? A "continuous Boost mode". What does AMD's description of power load sharing between their CPUs and GPUs sound like? Variable frequency. What has Sony called their setup? Variable frequency. What allowed Sony to break past 2 GHz GPU clocks? Switching from fixed frequency to variable frequency. What is one thing we've consistently seen between the Ariel and Oberon GPU revisions? Increasing GPU clocks. What is one thing Sony have said they designed the PS5 with in mind from the beginning? High GPU clocks.

Like, c'mon, the evidence is right in your face. It's right in RGT's face, right in MLiD's face, or whoever other's face falls into the trap of trying to push some crazy speculation regarding some super-crazy RDNA 3 features on PS5. You have the fruit of Sony and AMD's collaboration being successful staring you right in the eye, and manifest with RDNA 2 GPUs on the way, but because it doesn't fit the typical power narrative or typical "secret sauce" idea, you are not seeing the forest from the trees.

This has nothing to do with fanboyism; at least on my end, it's all about looking at the reality for what it is. Any specific features Sony wanted to highlight regarding PS5, were already a focus during Road to PS5. What guys like RGT, MLiD etc. are doing is trying to keep a certain narrative going strong by spinning up old rumors and marrying them with yet more speculation, teases, etc. that have been more recent. Yet virtually none of the stuff they are bringing up, with a week or so to go before launch, have in ANY way been confirmed officially by Sony, and this is with the additional understanding that they aren't really beholden to strict AMD NDAs anymore to even make a blanket statement of official feature support, the way MS have for example.

Chances are some of these guys aren't connecting the dots because they have tunnel vision, but that's me being generous. After all, the variable frequency stuff isn't "new" anymore, it's been known for months, so how would you drive traffic to your channel by going further into that, knowing in order to go further in, you'd have to start getting into VERY particular details that could be beyond your scope of understanding?

That's the way I'm looking this now. The clothes are slowly falling off.



This sounds like a spin of what MLiD said in their latest video, but he (as usual) went into instigating that this was MS not developing a console with "next generation game design" in mind. It's actually kind of a ridiculous notion to push on his end because there's no way to conclude that from a system being designed to run 4 1080p game instances simultaneously (plus I don't think you'd need to physically separate the L3$ on the CPU in order to enable this; you could virtualize banks of cache on the L3$ mapping each instance to a slice within it if desired, for example), and it's not like console design is an either/or game, either: you can realistically do both.

AFAIK the PS5 is only confirmed to run one game instance on its design setup; you could easily take MLiD's point and flip it against PS5; if it can't run multiple game instances on the same system simultaneously, does that mean it's not a next-gen system design? It was a really bad assertion on MLiD's part because he didn't think about it to its logical conclusion, because he's kind of a fanboy :S

Its a simple observation, the 2 x 4 MB caches are far apart, not easily shared without loss of cycles. You can make your own mind up why and I am sorry I speculated.


n7u1W6l.jpg
 
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Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
Seems to me that people are blowing every point of differentiation out of proportion and trying to turn bespoke nips-and-tucks into "special sauce".

Just a glance at the PS5 and Series X APU designs show fundamentally different approaches to approach the same problem; a basic equation of hitting ballpark performance targets within a predetermined production budget.

MS have opted for a width at more conservative speeds, whereas Sony have gone for narrower width but higher clocking.

That being the basic plan of attack, what becomes most important is purely a matter of what is most supportive of each approach. Hence customizations will be made with this in mind.

Surrounding all this are considerations arising from each providers overall business plan and ecosystem. MS have been doing the logical thing by trying to synergize Xbox into their broader PC technology plan; hence things like transitioning all development onto a unifying GDK to facilitate as much platform agnosticism as they can. Sony on the other hand have a more singular focus insofar as they just want minimal-friction continuity with PS4 at as low a hardware level as they can.

My point is differentiation should be expected. But its less a matter of Sony vs MS, its about both parties doing what they believe are the right things to serve their business plans.
 

rnlval

Member
This is CPU cache for 3.5 Ghz clocks.
With a single GCP, you have a dominant CPU thread which all other CPU threads funnels into and you're crossing from one CCD chiplet or one CCX to another CCX. AMD hasn't mastered DX11 multi-threading command list on PCs.

PC "Zen 3" was designed for PC's needs.
 
Its a simple observation, the 2 x 4 MB caches are far apart, not easily shared without loss of cycles. You can make your own mind up why and I am sorry I speculated.


n7u1W6l.jpg

I think MS took that into consideration hence why they clocked the CPU higher. Aside from that though the GPU can snoop the CPU caches (apparently this was also a thing on PS4 and XBO, a B3D user corrected me on this), which is likely another means of mitigation with any cache delays. We also know that devs can schedule which cores are assigned to what tasks; they'd take this into consideration and make sure any lower-level cache data a task on a given thread or core would need, is in the block of L3$ shared between that given cluster of CPU cores.

And no problems insofar as the other speculation; I know that wasn't something you spun out of thin air. AFAIK MLiD kicked that idea around in their latest video and it's just a braindead point of speculation that makes no sense and kind of further makes him look weak in terms of maintaining any kind of neutrality when it comes to the next-gen consoles.

Not a major problem with two GCP (graphics command processor) units i.e. one GPC per CCX.

Game console GPUs have two GCP units.

Ah, there's also this. Much more direct/to-the-point answer on that subject.
 
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If anything, Xbox fans are the ones believing in secret sauce when they think a very small advantage in hardware will make any difference on screen in multiplatform games, which is what matters here.

Both versions will look and run the same on every game.

There was a much bigger difference between PS4 Pro and XBO X and you could hardly see something on screen, so I don't know what you hope for here with 18 % difference maximum. This era is over, when you deal with dynamic 4k, upscaling from 1800p or 1900p is imperceptible.

It's a fact some hardware customization could make up for this small difference and even make the other platform better, but even that wouldn't make the versions look different.

What matters when hardware is so close is budget and talent. A 8K Craig will always look bad. Sony exclusives will always look better than anything on Xbox, like every gen.

You should have used all this posting energy to ask MS for launch exclusives.

Didn't you get banned at ree for console wars? Now you do that same shit here.

Grow up.
 
This would be a feature that doesn't do much of anything. It certainly won't get them to native 4k or an extra FPS. Chances are, RedGamingTech is full of shit, as they also claimed RDNA2 has Infinity Cache, which has nothing to do with the RDNA2 feature set.
 
you know sony as much as i do, if they had ANY feature the xbox didnt have they would have been flaunting it since day 1.

this is 100% nonsense
 
XSX showing only XONE/X360 looking games isn’t helping its case of being more powerful considering PS5 has shown some unbelievably good looking games such as Horizon 2, Project Athia and the UE5 demo.

This is what makes these rumours believable. If it weren’t for the games we’ve seen most would shrug it off.

If you believe Horizon 2 trailer was all in game then you hve to believe Hellblade 2 as well, which looks better.

UE5 demo...? it would run on xsx too
 

bitbydeath

Member
If you believe Horizon 2 trailer was all in game then you hve to believe Hellblade 2 as well, which looks better.

UE5 demo...? it would run on xsx too

You really think controlling someone swimming / riding around the map is the same as controlling someone singing?

UE5 demo would run on XSX too, Epic confirmed this as the engine is flexible. They also said it would be lower spec.
 

RaySoft

Member
A broken clock is right twice a day too.


If Sony had RDNA 3 or Zen 3, they'd of been screaming this everywhere. I'd also expect a more expensive console if they had much more advanced specs.
It's not suddenly a Zen3 just because you take some ideas from it. The cores are still Zen2, but where desktop zen2 had two seperate caches, one for each block of 4 cores, this one is unified. All 8 cores have access to the same cache and can then share data between eachother without introducing latency.
 
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