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Sigh...Signs of development hell has surfaced for 343 Industries. I'm moving on.

CitizenX

CitizenX

Banned
Ummm you do know this is basic work conditions in every factory on Earth, right? I could right novels of how sht i was treated but you now, I'm privileged.
 
M

Max_Po

Banned
Xenon said:
For sure. seems like he is always looking for a way to spin things for extra drama. For example...

Click to expand...


Just a few days ago, his source told him ... that halo was 4 month old build.

Unfortunately, YouTube is FULL of these people.... Same as that girl A Pierce. These people just want clicks and subs.

People who work in the industry are under Non Disclosure Agreements and every year people have to do integrity surveys in big corps... which forbids them to leak or talk about inside information.
 
ManaByte

ManaByte

Rage Bait Youtuber
Amiga said:
you can see patterns though, this one is consistent with reports about ND crunch issues.
Click to expand...

Again, every company has people shitting on them there. Before Glassdoor the site was FuckedCompany. These sites have always existed.

26 Reviews: What Is It Like to Work At Sucker Punch Productions?

26 Sucker Punch Productions reviews. A free inside look at company reviews and salaries posted anonymously by employees.
www.glassdoor.com www.glassdoor.com
www.glassdoor.com

PlayStation Reviews

962 PlayStation reviews. A free inside look at company reviews and salaries posted anonymously by employees.
www.glassdoor.com www.glassdoor.com
 
Hobbygaming

Hobbygaming

has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
Jigsaah said:
I feel you man, but look at the specifics of these surveys. They mention "systemic" issues. Not being able to submit new code for weeks at a time. I think the biggest issue for me was the heavy use of contractors. So they don't have a solid studio with people who are dedicated to the franchise. I work in an environment where people work without passion at times. It has a real effect on the enduser.
Click to expand...
I've also worked with contractors and often times they do lack passion. It's just a temporary routine thing for them and then they're on to the next job.

I can see how this would cause creativity problems in game development
 
Punished Miku

Punished Miku

Human Rights Subscription Service
I watch stuff like this for entertainment mostly. But it's not like it's all that reliable. Almost every job can be summarized negatively.

I don't think anyone thinks 343 is running fantastically, but they mostly seem to put out mediocre games with some technical issues. Probably the same case here, and this is their first open world game. Probably mediocre, but potentially enjoyable for a low entry price.
 
Hobbygaming

Hobbygaming

has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
PresetError said:
This is hardly news. Development hell for HALO Infinite has been hinted many many months ago.

Tim Longo - Creative Director of Halo Infinite left 343i in August 2019
Mary Olsen - Lead Producer of Halo Infinite that also took over Tim Longo's role left 343i in October 2019

Halo Infinite is in trouble and people that refuse to see it after that Xbox showcase is in denial.
Click to expand...
Wow I didn't know Tim's replacement had already left. Yeah, I'd say the game is probably in trouble but maybe they'd pulled it together in time

I'm doubtful it's going to be an incredible Halo game but maybe it can be a decent one
 
Halo is Back

Halo is Back

Member
This is 343 so why are people surprised by this? Both Halo 5 and MCC were famously broken at release and took them a long ass time to get it fixed. That company is so trash I have no idea why MS has not given them the boot. Giving that clown studio to Halo is one of, if not MS greatest mistakes.

At least the Coalition has made two solid Gears games.
 
Hobbygaming

Hobbygaming

has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
TearInto5th said:
This is how I think a lot of MS studios have been running for a long time(not all of them), and this is why Xbox titles just don't have the same pezazz as Sony published ones.

MS thinks you can just buy all the talent and make AAA games, but it really doesn't work that way. You need to keep teams happy, and nurture them over time. Its far more efficient for you to have the same 50 man team working on their own game for 5 years, opposed to having 50 staff, then adding 100 more that are essentially in and out workers and get it done in 3 years, this is especially important for the programming of the game, and makes a huge difference in the long run.

Im afraid MS will keep doing this to try and catch up in their exclusives space, but will keep churning out underwhelming AA titles. Some studios will shine, but if this is how First party studios are treated, its not a great start to a new generation.
Click to expand...
Yeah I can see how a studio being ran like a factory could hurt the game.

Sony gave Sucker Punch 6 years for Ghost of Tsushima and they not only made a great game but they have a solid base to build an even better game
 
E

Explosive Zombie

Banned
No one can tell me that looked like a game with 5 years dev time on it, that it looked like the flagship franchise for Microsoft or like a game built from the ground up for next-gen. If you don't believe the rumors of internal strife at 343 then you'd have to admit they're wholly incompetent devs, wouldn't you?
 
Jigsaah

Jigsaah

Gold Member
bumleforce said:
I mean naughty dog is known to treat its employees bad and look how it’s games come out
Click to expand...
Maybe so. But when they first revealed gameplay for TLOU2...the gaming communities respond was literal awe. They were even accused of faking gameplay by other developers. Development hell can come in different forms. It's one thing to work your dedicated fulltime people to death. Its another thing to never have a real fulltime team to begin with and to have the workflow itself be inefficient. NaughtyDog at least has the infrastructure right, but that's been proven time and time again with their releases.

I'm not on Naughtydog's nuts or anything. What I'm saying is self-evident. No need for bias when you simply seek truth. I actually didn't really like Uncharted, but I cannot deny it's quality. TLOU2 was...good. But again, I cannot deny the quality. Halo, as of right now, is lacking quality. Looking at it's past releases...I mean Halo 4 and 5 looked good, but we all know the story was crap and the multiplayer was awesome. So I'm not saying Halo Infinite isn't salvageable I'm just saying what they've shown me combined with recent rumor and news is enough to keep my hype level to a manageable rate.
 
D

DarthFeanor

Banned
We don't need that random nobody to see the signs of problems with Halo Infinity following the fallout of Halo 5 terrible campaign.

However we've seen many exemples of games recovering from trouble development and launch.

Even 343 and their partners have been able to save MCC that is now prospering on PC.

If the foundations are strong we can be a little forgiving.
 
THEAP99

THEAP99

Banned
yurqqa said:
After tons of shit, men's and circles showing where the vegetation LOD changes - does anybody thought about gameplay ?

Maybe the game will be fun to play ?

Does it matter still for gamers ?
Click to expand...
The gameplay they showed seemed like a step down from what I’ve experienced in other fps games
 
Kamina

Kamina

Golden Boy
ManaByte said:
Again, every company has people shitting on them there. Before Glassdoor the site was FuckedCompany. These sites have always existed.

26 Reviews: What Is It Like to Work At Sucker Punch Productions?

26 Sucker Punch Productions reviews. A free inside look at company reviews and salaries posted anonymously by employees.
www.glassdoor.com www.glassdoor.com
www.glassdoor.com

PlayStation Reviews

962 PlayStation reviews. A free inside look at company reviews and salaries posted anonymously by employees.
www.glassdoor.com www.glassdoor.com
Click to expand...
So you are telling us it is all wrong, and that we can never believe anyone coming forward with bad stories about their employers? That we are to believe that everything is fine?
Look, especially in NaughtyDogs case the reports are so consistent that there has to be some true core to the matter. You cant blanket reject all claims as coming from a disgruntled employee who wants revenge.
 
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Klayzer

Klayzer

Gold Member
DarthFeanor said:
We don't need that random nobody to see the signs of problems with Halo Infinity following the fallout of Halo 5 terrible campaign.

However we've seen many exemples of games recovering from trouble development and launch.

Even 343 and their partners have been able to save MCC that is now prospering on PC.

If the foundations are strong we can be a little forgiving.
Click to expand...
Totally unrelated question. Is Feanor in your username in reference to the elf in the Silmarillion from Tolkien? If so, it's one of my favorite books. I love the stories about the Elves battles against Melkor.
 
M

Mmnow

Member
THEAP99 said:
The gameplay they showed seemed like a step down from what I’ve experienced in other fps games
Click to expand...

I kinda feel sorry for 343 on this though.

They are tasked with creating a nostalgic but innovative experience for a community that wants to be blown away by a new Halo while also being up in arms that the main character can sprint.

They can't make their own thing. They can't rely too much on the old thing. The balance will be ripped apart whatever they do.

That isn't dismissing valid criticism, of course. But they're in a position where the people looking at this game don't know what they want and are outraged they're not getting it.
 
THEAP99

THEAP99

Banned
Mmnow said:
I kinda feel sorry for 343 on this though.

They are tasked with creating a nostalgic but innovative experience for a community that wants to be blown away by a new Halo while also being up in arms that the main character can sprint.

They can't make their own thing. They can't rely too much on the old thing. The balance will be ripped apart whatever they do.

That isn't dismissing valid criticism, of course. But they're in a position where the people looking at this game don't know what they want and are outraged they're not getting it.
Click to expand...
Pretty much. It’s a shame. They should really risk it and go balls to the wall but like.. actually good quality and not what we just saw lmao. It is what it is.

Gameplay looks lame to me. Maybe i just don’t “get“ halo, but I played some of the master chief collection and thought it was okay.

I’m not really a halo fan though so of course I wouldn’t mind them going extremely off course if it mean leaving tradition
 
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BadBurger

BadBurger

Many “Whelps”! Handle It!
Mmnow said:
I kinda feel sorry for 343 on this though.

They are tasked with creating a nostalgic but innovative experience for a community that wants to be blown away by a new Halo while also being up in arms that the main character can sprint.

They can't make their own thing. They can't rely too much on the old thing. The balance will be ripped apart whatever they do.

That isn't dismissing valid criticism, of course. But they're in a position where the people looking at this game don't know what they want and are outraged they're not getting it.
Click to expand...

Being reluctant to innovate might be their biggest problem. I know that there are tens of millions of Halo fans out there, but they need to push ahead. We've played plenty of FPS and third person games since the last big Halo that looked a lot more dynamic, and they're years old at this point. I don't know. Maybe I'm just not the target audience.
 
M

Mmnow

Member
BadBurger said:
Being reluctant to innovate might be their biggest problem. I know that there are tens of millions of Halo fans out there, but they need to push ahead. We've played plenty of FPS and third person games since the last big Halo that looked a lot more dynamic, and they're years old at this point. I don't know. Maybe I'm just not the target audience.
Click to expand...

But what is innovation? If you were in charge of the next Halo, what specifics would you want to see?
 
BadBurger

BadBurger

Many “Whelps”! Handle It!
Mmnow said:
But what is innovation? If you were in charge of the next Halo, what specifics would you want to see?
Click to expand...

Game play that went beyond pick up gun, shoot, and then move on, I guess. In Spider-Man and Horizon there were segments in which the player had to prep time, and then in very tense and sudden moments keep switching between an arsenal of weapons and gadgets. In the Last of Us and Uncharted we have to scope out an environment and then decide how we were going to move in. Halo still looked very 2000's to me. Rush ahead, shoot, club. Now they have a grappling hook.

I don't think it was awful but I think it needs more. All that said, I still intend on playing it because I have Game Pass.
 
T

TheRaidenPT

Member
It's actually not the first time I heard about contractors making the heavy lifting in 343, previously during Halo 5 I had a friend who worked there there for a year and he was always baffled that since contractors did such amount of work why they wouldn't end up getting hired by 343 to avoid a future contractor roller coaster.

However, don't forget almost all studios use contractors for art assets and so on.. (not so much on programming especially if you are using a property tech)
 
Jigsaah

Jigsaah

Gold Member
-Arcadia- said:
Wouldn't doubt this is real to some extent.

I have no other idea about how the trailers full of gorgeous art, world concepts, and technical mastery, alongside the backing of one of the biggest companies on the planet, would have turned into... this.

It looks behind compared to Xbox One and 360 games, let alone those tech sneak peaks. That kind of thing makes a lot of sense if your engine and tech are running behind schedule, you've had development restarts, are running out of time, etc.

All I can hope is that it plays well, and the visuals are polished up to an acceptable level over time. A delay might be even better. It looks surprisingly compelling from a gameplay/story angle, so it has that going for it.
Click to expand...
I'm with the delay. It's ready when it's ready. Xbox 360 didn't launch with Halo, neither did Xbox One. I'm in no rush.
 
E

eastwood333

Banned
Not too surprised by this. But to be fair, any company with 500 plus employees will have disgruntled ones. I'm surprised the number isn't higher tbh.

There is no doubt that having a lot of contractors will lead to less accountability with a lot of devs looking to just get Halo into their resumes.

I do agree that higher ups need to go (Bonnie Ross). MS has a problem with not holding certain higher ups accountable(Aaron Greenberg, Bonnie Ross etc). It seems that their is a core group at the top that are buddies and will never be fired. That probably have no business being in the positions they're in and probably not knowledgeable of the games industry as a whole, gamers themselves, or even Halo fans.

Phil needs to make the tough choices of firing, removing people he may personally like, in order to right the ship at 343. Otherwise, Phil himself is a big part of the problem and nothing will change.
 
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JerryinSoCal

JerryinSoCal

Member
Geki-D said:
It'll be one of the biggest launches in the franchise's history because everyone who gets a XSX will get this too.
Click to expand...

It's on gamepass, it's going to sell like trash. Gears 5 only hit number 7 in it's first month NPD and dropped out of the top 20 in it's second month. GP kills first party sales. Phil can lie all he wants but he just doesn't want anything negative said about his baby.
 
Geki-D

Geki-D

Banned
JerryinSoCal said:
It's on gamepass, it's going to sell like trash.
Click to expand...
You know what, I completely forgot about GP. You're right though if anything MS will see a boost in GP subs at the XSX's launch.

Of course between getting a rise in subs and selling, let's say, 3 million copies of a single, full price game (I think 3 million would be an easy number for a new Halo as a launch title if GP wasn't a thing), this is definitely a case where GP is going to hurt MS' bottom line.

It's a no brainer why Sony refuse to put games on Now day & date. TLOU2 4 million at launch, Ghost 2.4 million at launch. Both full price games. it's insane to think that a sub service wouldn't cut into those sales and that revenue. PS Now costs the price of one game for a year, just in the example of these 2 games (ignoring all other games on the service), if someone subbed because of TLOU2, they would also gain access to Ghost for the price of a single game.
 
pawel86ck

pawel86ck

Banned
Phase said:
That's the main reason 343 has failed imo and the reason I haven't liked a Halo game since Reach. They haven't understood what made Halo unique gameplay-wise since their inception, instead trying to make/force their own vision with every release. Well... We've seen how that's turned out.
Click to expand...
I have to admit Halo 4 graphics design was beautiful, however like you have said 343i havent understood what made halo games so fun to play. This video shows very well how much 343i has changed combat mechanics in halo 4, and clearly they tried to reinvent the wheel rather than use / copy what was already working perfectly.🙁
 
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Ichabod

Ichabod

Banned
343 has proven themselves to be the great value brand Bungie time and again. I expect no difference come Infinite.
 
VN1X

VN1X

Banned
343i pulling an Anthem it seems? Very unfortunate to hear as I actually really enjoyed Halo 4. Have not played Halo 5 but if Infinite is any indication than maybe I should steer clear of that as well. SAD!
 
Apollo Helios

Apollo Helios

Member
Bad news for SlipSpace engine, turns out it is based on their old one (I guess Blam!) and rewritten in part, giving credence to the whole Reddit leaks about 343.

Timestamped video to one of their social streams dated December 2018
 
Doncabesa

Doncabesa

Member
Apollo Helios said:
Bad news for SlipSpace engine, turns out it is based on their old one (I guess Blam!) and rewritten in part, giving credence to the whole Reddit leaks about 343.

Timestamped video to one of their social streams dated December 2018
Click to expand...

Unreal 4 has code from Unreal 1, 2, and 3 in it. You never throw away working parts, no new engine is built from scratch.
 
PooBone

PooBone

Member
Former employees and a dude that has a hate boner for MS?

I'll wait for something substantial before I write off a team of creatives.
 
PooBone

PooBone

Member
Phase said:
Oh, all of their previous releases haven't been enough? /s
Click to expand...
Not when it comes to claims of a hostile work environment. Go meet some of the team members and see how many of them are disgruntled with their working conditions.
 
PooBone

PooBone

Member
Making games that aren't as good as Bungie, a well-known hardcore crunch studio, does not equal "development hell."

Children.
 
The Scrivener

The Scrivener

Member
Didn't Metroid Prime go through development hell too? And that turned out to be one of the greatest games ever.

I'm not saying that Halo Infinity will be one of the greatest games ever, but according to my strong analogy, it may well be.

Edit: Weak name though, I never remember it correctly. Still, all signs from OP indicate next gen masterpiece incoming...
 
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M

Michael Hawk

Member
Michael Hawk said:
I believe him.

They lost both the creative director and lead producer during development, they're positioning the game as "a platform that evolves over time", and the gameplay reveal featured shockingly outdated graphics and unremarkable gameplay.

It's obvious that something isn't working out behind the scenes. The best course of action would be to delay the game and ship it when it's not a hot mess, but are Microsoft willing to do that?
Click to expand...

Remembered this from today's delay news. Looks like the answer is yes.
 
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