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Seagate PCIe4 next-gen storage event on 23rd June
- Thread starter cormack12
- Start date
Self_Destructive
Member
I uh... wonder what they're going to do? lmfao
jigglet
Banned
No PCIE standards evolve pretty slowly compared to other tech.
lol. Maybe Sony will finally unlock the internal slot around this time. The update is supposed to be in June or July.will it be faster than PS5 superior SSD?
lh032
I cry about Xbox and hate PlayStation.
i hope they announce a PS5 version internal SSD.
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Topher
Gold Member
will it be faster than PS5 superior SSD?
Would think so. Samsung and Corsair already have PCIe drives with 7,000Mb/s read speeds. Believe that is the speed Cerny highlighted in his tech reveal that would be needed for PS5 storage expansion options.
I think its probably more so this:
WD has one too.
Probably just need more drives with that speed on the market, for testing if thats what Sony was waiting for.
GuinGuin
Banned
It could be that during testing it was revealed even those drives aren't fast enough to keep up with the custom drive and I/O of the PS5 so they are waiting for even faster ones to hit the market.
ZywyPL
Banned
7Gbps is the upper limit of PCIE4, so if what you suggest is true that means the external SSD slot will never be used.
Endless Fluff
Banned
Well, then Sony designed some shit hardware as that would mean that everyone with a PS5 right now will never be able to upgrade their internal storage. 7.8GB/s is the max speed that M.2 slot can handle and that's theoretical. Practical 7GB/s is the end of it.
GuinGuin
Banned
Could be they will have to work with a manufacturer to create a custom controller for the M2 drives. Don't worry, have faith in Cerny.
Topher
Gold Member
I don't think the speed of these new drives is the issue. I think J jroc74 is correct and Sony is waiting on more compatible drives to be available. My cynical side, however, says there are probably marketing deals in the background that are holding up any of these drives from being endorsed before all the preferred manufacturer's are ready.
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
We shall see, they did hedge their bets by prioritising work on PS5 games backup and ensuring devs had tools to make games as small as they can… so far the latter delivered quite good results.
I think this is one of those things that fallout of rushed solutions can cost them billions and an area where COVID is really impacting things hard.
SantaC
Member
PCIE 6.0 is coming out this year.
PCI Express 6.0 ger ovanligt stora förändringar innan årets slut
Version 0.71 av specifikationen väntas inom kort och den slutgiltiga versionen ser ut att lanseras enligt plan innan årsskiftet.
www.sweclockers.com
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
will it be faster than PS5 superior SSD?
The question would be is it sustainable or it'll throttle down like almost all NVMe m.2 SSD's. If anything I think Sony should make their own that mimics the internal one because PC market seems too slow to evolve. It will also get the attention of PC gamers as it should as well work on PC's. The Sony flash controller looks big though, not sure how it'll fit in the traditional NVMe m.2 SSD:
You really making yourself sound ignorant. PS5's SSD design just happens to sustain speeds with 4x more paralleled orders (6 priority levels vs 2) compared to the inferior NVMe m.2 SSD's available in the market. 7GB/s doesn't cut all the architectural deficiencies in the high end NVMe m.2 SSD's. Having 12-channel per 12-module for a 1:1 ratio helps with the data flow more than 8-channel with 16-module of 1:2 ratio.
Xbox on the other hand cut down to only 2x lanes and 4-channel per around 16-module, 1:4 ratio. Above that it's DRAM-less low budget SSD so the CPU must do the seeking.
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Werewolfgrandma
Banned
How big is the expansion slot? All these drives get quite hot. Is there room for the drive and a fairly large cooler?
Bo_Hazem
Banned
It has room for very large ones actually, and you can just keep the cover out instead of closing it if the negative air tunnel isn't good enough.
It can take even slightly larger than what's offered in the market, not sure if they're cooking something but Sony already makes top quality memory cards for cameras and camcorders.
PC SSD's aren't made with sustainable speeds in mind, that's the problem. They throttle down pretty fast.
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Do we know PS5's sustained rates?The question would be is it sustainable or it'll throttle down like almost all NVMe m.2 SSD's. If anything I think Sony should make their own that mimics the internal one because PC market seems too slow to evolve. It will also get the attention of PC gamers as it should as well work on PC's. The Sony flash controller looks big though, not sure how it'll fit in the traditional NVMe m.2 SSD:
You really making yourself sound ignorant. PS5's SSD design just happens to sustain speeds with 4x more paralleled orders (6 priority levels vs 2) compared to the inferior NVMe m.2 SSD's available in the market. 7GB/s doesn't cut all the architectural deficiencies in the high end NVMe m.2 SSD's. Having 12-channel per 12-module for a 1:1 ratio helps with the data flow more than 8-channel with 16-module of 1:2 ratio.
Xbox on the other hand cut down to only 2x lanes and 4-channel per around 16-module, 1:4 ratio. Above that it's DRAM-less low budget SSD so the CPU must do the seeking.
Werewolfgrandma
Banned
That would fit the smaller coolers, not the bigger ones though.It has room for very large ones actually, and you can just keep the cover out instead of closing it if the negative air tunnel isn't good enough.
It can take even slightly larger than what's offered in the market, not sure if they're cooking something but Sony already makes top quality memory cards for cameras and camcorders.
PC SSD's aren't made with sustainable speeds in mind, that's the problem. They throttle down pretty fast.
GuinGuin
Banned
The question would be is it sustainable or it'll throttle down like almost all NVMe m.2 SSD's. If anything I think Sony should make their own that mimics the internal one because PC market seems too slow to evolve. It will also get the attention of PC gamers as it should as well work on PC's. The Sony flash controller looks big though, not sure how it'll fit in the traditional NVMe m.2 SSD:
You really making yourself sound ignorant. PS5's SSD design just happens to sustain speeds with 4x more paralleled orders (6 priority levels vs 2) compared to the inferior NVMe m.2 SSD's available in the market. 7GB/s doesn't cut all the architectural deficiencies in the high end NVMe m.2 SSD's. Having 12-channel per 12-module for a 1:1 ratio helps with the data flow more than 8-channel with 16-module of 1:2 ratio.
Xbox on the other hand cut down to only 2x lanes and 4-channel per around 16-module, 1:4 ratio. Above that it's DRAM-less low budget SSD so the CPU must do the seeking.
Doesn't matter how many times you try to tell people PS5's storage and data transfer tech is in another league from everything else on the market. They just can't grasp it because they are so used to thinking PC is the best they can't see how it has been leapfrogged with an all new approach. Cerny is still spinning heads a year after the reveal.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
With how fast thinks go in and out with R&C and the overkill stress test of raw 8K assets on UE5 with zero stutter it seems to be sustainable at least at 5GB/s raw. The modules and the flash controller are all directly cooled by the gigantic heatsink as well.
/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/19816599/ps5_2gb_load_times.jpg)
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Werewolfgrandma
Banned
Both sn850 and 980 pro sustain over 5gbsWith how fast thinks go in and out with R&C and the overkill stress test of raw 8K assets on UE5 with zero stutter it seems to be sustainable at least at 5GB/s raw. The modules and the flash controller are all directly cooled by the gigantic heatsink as well.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
I have 970 Pro and it can't sustain that while it doesn't surpass 60C. Yes it is PCIe 3.0, but at 40C it can't even sustain 3.5GB/s for more than few seconds before dropping to 1GB/s and below.
A youtuber before showed a big headroom there for most if not all heatsinks and fans added above the SSD. And if you wanna be creative you can as well leave the cover out and you'll get even more direct air as the side plates have gaps like floating.
GHG
Member
The reason for the throttling and not being able sustain speeds on previous drives is the controller. They all used the phison e16 and all of the issues can be traced back to the controller (including heat and the resulting heatsink requirements).
This is the new controller that will be used on most PCIe 4.0 drives going forwards (the phison e18):
New Phison E18 Flash Controller for 176-Layer NAND Now Commercially Available
Phison Electronics Corp. (TPEX: 8299), a global leader in NAND flash controller integrated circuits and storage solutions, today announces shipping of
www.businesswire.com
A drive using the new controller can go into a laptop without any issues:
How-to Upgrade a Tiger Lake Notebook with a PCIe 4.0 SSD - Phison Blog
In late 2020, Intel partners released 11th Generation Core processors into the notebook market. The new platforms brought the awesome capabilities of PCI Express 4.0 to the mobile space for the first time. Until Intel’s 11th Gen Core platform, the technology was only available for desktops and...
phisonblog.com
No ridiculous heatsink required either:
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They only have 2 priority levels, PS5 have 6, thus they need to be even faster than 5.5GB sustained to make up the difference.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Sometimes you reply to indirectly avoid confusion and misinformation so other neutral readers don't bite that BS.
The reason for the throttling and not being able sustain speeds on previous drives is the controller. They all used the phison e16 and all of the issues can be traced back to the controller (including heat and the resulting heatsink requirements).
This is the new controller that will be used on most PCIe 4.0 drives going forwards (the phison e18):
New Phison E18 Flash Controller for 176-Layer NAND Now Commercially Available
Phison Electronics Corp. (TPEX: 8299), a global leader in NAND flash controller integrated circuits and storage solutions, today announces shipping ofwww.businesswire.com
Hope it's good enough, still doubt it anyway especially when the SSD is active for long periods during gameplay. SSD's on PC aren't made with constant data streaming in mind, nor gaming like a virtual RAM to boost GPU/CPU efficiencies without wasteful computations off screen.
That's one of the biggest bottlenecks in PC NVMe m.2 SSD's. The SRAM in the I/O would help, but you can't really do much if you're dealing with a drastically inferior design.
You wont see that in any consumer products for probably another 3 or 4 years.PCIE 6.0 is coming out this year.
PCI Express 6.0 ger ovanligt stora förändringar innan årets slut
Version 0.71 av specifikationen väntas inom kort och den slutgiltiga versionen ser ut att lanseras enligt plan innan årsskiftet.
Kenpachii
Member
6 channels are useless for anybody else then sony, so honestly not really important for the market itself.
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GHG
Member
Well if that's the case then you wont be getting any SSD's that will be compatible with the PS5.
The only thing about the PS5 drive that is "special" is the controller but that is not onboard the SSD itself:
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Not channels. To break it down to you it's like having 6 trucks that can be sent to fitch data vs 2 trucks. This is helpful to avoid lip sync problems and different other logic lags in-game. Here's Mark Cerny talking about an example:
To avoid some trolls (not you) skipping and not watching 1-2 minutes here it is: (7 screenshots)
Well if that's the case then you wont be getting any SSD's that will be compatible with the PS5.
The only thing about the PS5 drive that is "special" is the controller but that is not onboard the SSD itself:
Outside the controller the external SSD will use the same I/O perks, but you need a flash controller that's on par with the internal one. Although Cerny said that they'll try to use that extra 7GB/s to compensate for priority levels via I/O, but then that's expecting it to be sustainable speed.
I've explained what's special about the SSD few posts above, it's a 1:1 relation between channels and chips, that's not available on PC. Also making 6 orders simultatiously vs 2 is a massive deal, and that's outside the I/O so you need an SSD with similar flash controller.
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Kazekage1981
Member
1) Will Seagate or any other SSD manufacturer besides Western Digital, incorporate ReRAM to its SSDs? I am still not quite sure how ReRAM works. TL;DR: Western Digital ReRAM article
2) Will Seagate and other SSD manufacturers make newer SSD's which are optimized and compliant towards Microsoft 'DirectStorage API and SFS' Similar to how AMD and NVIDIA make GPUs that are 'Direct X 12 Optimized and compliant'
3) Will the speed of SSD's drastically increase to say up to 10GB/sec or perhaps even more?
4) Will their be improvements to compression/decompression software like Kraken and others?
5) In what ways can SSD's be improved using PCIE 5 or 6.0?
2) Will Seagate and other SSD manufacturers make newer SSD's which are optimized and compliant towards Microsoft 'DirectStorage API and SFS' Similar to how AMD and NVIDIA make GPUs that are 'Direct X 12 Optimized and compliant'
3) Will the speed of SSD's drastically increase to say up to 10GB/sec or perhaps even more?
4) Will their be improvements to compression/decompression software like Kraken and others?
5) In what ways can SSD's be improved using PCIE 5 or 6.0?
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
If Sony makes a proprietary SSD that is 825GB and exactly similar to the internal one with a heatsink/fans that works perfectly on PS5 then that will be as well compatible with PC's and you'll bet many PC gamers will go and buy those, which will eventually make the prices go down. Also it might be priced even lower than high end NVMe m.2 SSD's offered now on release due to using cheaper chips/modules through more channels. Like buying 12 cheaper pickups (chip/module) on 12-lane road (channels) instead of 16 slightly larger but expensive pickups through 8-lane road for top tier SSD's. Low tier SSD's are 4-channel though, more cramped.
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vpance
Member
I imagine worst case, they would just reserve a part of the internal SSD to maintain max streaming speed if you have a slightly sub optimal M.2. So the expansion M.2 becomes a transparent "cold" storage.
The other option would be that they nerf the internal SSD speed. But I don't really see that happening.
The other option would be that they nerf the internal SSD speed. But I don't really see that happening.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Yup, internal partition came in mind as well, but that will degrade the SSD pretty fast because of constant writing and deleting. It is a massive problem and many expected Sony to have a hard time approving external storage. So for now they can just use it to move in and out games that you're not playing for those who don't have access to fast internet or suffer from internet caps.
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Topher
Gold Member
Not channels. To break it down to you it's like having 6 trucks that can be sent to fitch data vs 2 trucks. This is helpful to avoid lip sync problems and different other logic lags in-game. Here's Mark Cerny talking about an example:
To avoid some trolls (not you) skipping and not watching 1-2 minutes here it is: (7 screenshots)
Outside the controller the external SSD will use the same I/O perks, but you need a flash controller that's on par with the internal one. Although Cerny said that they'll try to use that extra 7GB/s to compensate for priority levels via I/O, but then that's expecting it to be sustainable speed.
I've explained what's special about the SSD few posts above, it's a 1:1 relation between channels and chips, that's not available on PC. Also making 6 orders simultatiously vs 2 is a massive deal, and that's outside the I/O so you need an SSD with similar flash controller.
Rocco Schiavone
Member
It's called NVMe SSD.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Some weren't following the next gen thread so some of these critical details might be unknown. Some know it and pretend to be ignorant about it and spam threads with nonsense.
It's called NVMe SSD.
PS5's SSD is custom though, not NVMe architecture. That what made it superior actually.
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GuinGuin
Banned
Well if that's the case then you wont be getting any SSD's that will be compatible with the PS5.
The only thing about the PS5 drive that is "special" is the controller but that is not onboard the SSD itself:
If "only" being able to install 10 PS5 games at a time while the rest sit in cold storage on an external drive is the price I have to pay for transformative data transfer speeds I'm fine with that. I only play one game at a time anyway. It's also the much cheaper option as a "slow" large cold storage drive is much cheaper than a fast smaller bleeding edge second SSD.
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vpance
Member
I was thinking more like a partition dedicated to streaming that devs can point to. They will just make the game to be aware of 2 drives that they can pull from. Most of the game is still installed on the expansion but when the game needs max streaming speed that specific data goes on the internal. No idea if it's possible but it seems reasonable.
Topher
Gold Member
Well if that's the case then you wont be getting any SSD's that will be compatible with the PS5.
The only thing about the PS5 drive that is "special" is the controller but that is not onboard the SSD itself:
I believe this is why Nvidia is developing RTX IO. It can use the GPU as the controller and bring much of the advantages consoles now have to PC. I could be wrong about that, but that is what I understood to be the case.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Problem is every console will have data saved in different spots across all 12 chips, it's either full partition of the whole game or not. In other words, 32-64GB RAM would've helped here.
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Rocco Schiavone
Member
I know that so what? The SSD expension in the PS5 still uses NVMe SSDs.
After all my statement is correct.
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Negotiator101
Member
What is this have faith in Cerny crap? You on the Sony payroll or something?
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
Gen 5 should be here in time for peak/Xmas as long as it isn't delayed into 2022, which could happen. Looking forward to seeing what it can do.
GuinGuin
Banned
Have faith in Cerny and you too will gain the knowledge, wisdom and understanding to see the future.
Topher
Gold Member
Errrr......no offense, but you've done your fair share of hero worship when it comes to Phil Spencer.
vpance
Member
Do you mean that's a problem for lifespan of the drive? Not sure what you're saying.
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