Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Hahahaha if you gonna bitch about something this trivial be expected to answer the "hard" questions
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Digital Foundry: Deathloop on PC/PS5 is not pushing technical boundries, and that's OK.
- Thread starter SlimySnake
- Start date
Hahahaha if you gonna bitch about something this trivial be expected to answer the "hard" questions
Captain Hero
The Spoiler Soldier
Did you think DF give studios the freedom to make fun games by saying Deathloop is a good game despite the average technology they put in there?
Hmm that's good for me tbh and I'm ok with DF reviewing games the way they want, not that I like their way but its their channel.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Delusional. I had a back and forth with you over a series of 6 or 7 posts and answered all of your so called hard questions.
What I refuse to do is engage with someone who has completely lost the plot, and has resorted to calling me a little bitch, and has gotten weirdly personal with insults. Im embarrassed for you. You seem to lack basic social skills and have no idea how to actually talk to people. If you are getting this triggered by a thread on a forum where discussion like this is fairly normal then you need to get some help. Maybe see someone and sort out any adjustment disorders because acting like a complete moron over a disagreement is not healthy.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
If they apply the same standards towards every game then sure. But then they cant turn around and torch games like Halo Infinite for not looking sufficiently next gen like they did last year. I dont care for Halo myself, but everyone I know told me Halo at least looked like fun to play. So by that logic, DF should give it a pass as well.
June
Member
I remember people saying similar things about Dishonored 1's graphics
Just because a game doesn't go the route of realistic visuals doesn't mean it therefore looks bad. In fact I'd say a more stylised art style like Arkane tends to take is better looking and more timeless than many other games
Just because a game doesn't go the route of realistic visuals doesn't mean it therefore looks bad. In fact I'd say a more stylised art style like Arkane tends to take is better looking and more timeless than many other games
bender
What time is it?
Art can do wonders but I'm the opposite of you, I really dislike Arkane's style, particularly their character modeling.
Redfall isn’t in beta.
Nobody with functional brains criticized it. They know what an early play test build looks like.
Anyone with brains knows that the final game will not look like that.
You need to stop following those console warriors on Twitter and the misguided ones here. I think this bit tells a lot about how little you understand about gaming.
Concern
Member
After them hoping and being so sure the game would be a critical flop, the game ended up reviewing too well. So this is the best strawman they feel they got now lol.
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The real issue is buried in the OP. A DF contributor complained about the model in Project EVE, so apparently he’s sworn undying revenge.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Did you not read the entire post?
It doesnt matter if Redfall is in beta or early playtest. I am talking about if it looks the same in the final version. What then? Should it be given a pass?
June
Member
for me the character models are an aspect that I'm not head over heels for either, just because i tend to prefer not-so exaggerated body types (and dishonored got those big hands and stuff)
but everything else I really like - simple, kinda cartoony, often uses bold and rich colours.
I prefer a more basic but realised art style like Arkanes over the myriad of games that reach for the stars of realism but invariably fall short
Chris_Rivera
Member
Sounds like you gotta problem with DF
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
lol I couldn't care less about Project Eve. The game looks like shit. I think Alex being distracted by attractive women is dumb, but I wouldnt touch that game with a ten foot poll. The problem is simply that you are unwilling to read the main thesis posted in the OP and are looking for things that are not there. I actually dont criticize him for calling Project Eve a decade old game. In fact, I think he should apply that same logic towards judging games and visuals.
That's literally it. There is no hidden agenda. I have defended Alex and trashed him in dozens of threads. I defended him last year when he made the ray tracing thread on Halo Infinite. I trashed him when he continued to peddle the audio only ray tracing nonsense on the PS5. I have given him props for his detailed analysis on games like AC Valhalla, and called him out on flawed comparisons on worst case scenarios. Fuck Project eve. That shit also looks cross gen and needs to be trashed by DF for having last gen graphics.
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Tschumi
Member
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DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
This ain’t it snake.
it’s like only being able to enjoy films with the budget of a Disney marvel film, which I hope isn’t the case.
tech is here to deliver an experience and it doesn’t have to be bleeding edge to do so. Many people will vote Deaths Door in their game of the years this year.
the game seems to run mostly solid With a few odd launch glitches and bugs, like every game.
a tech analysis site should have the knowledge to look at the whole picture. Budget etc and make an informed analysis based on that.
it’s like only being able to enjoy films with the budget of a Disney marvel film, which I hope isn’t the case.
tech is here to deliver an experience and it doesn’t have to be bleeding edge to do so. Many people will vote Deaths Door in their game of the years this year.
the game seems to run mostly solid With a few odd launch glitches and bugs, like every game.
a tech analysis site should have the knowledge to look at the whole picture. Budget etc and make an informed analysis based on that.
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
You didnt answer any of the questions I actually had.
Who are you to dictate what games can be on XSX/PS5?
Who are you to dictate how Digital Foundry runs their channel or website?
Not every game needs to be bleeding edge, art direction can carry a game further than ohh gritty graphics, DF doesnt need to do Halo Infinite style (lets fix it) videos on every game.
Negotiator101
Member
What the hell you writing drivel like this for? You're annoyed because nearly everyone who has responded in this thread disagrees with you. They disagree because you're wrong, get over it.
mansoor1980
Gold Member
agree with you OP , it was a lazy TECHNICAL analysis and more of a FUN FACTOR review of said game
Mobilemofo
Member
Call me weird, but i think just by looking at it, art style and all, its hardly pushing the hardware. Foundry stating the obvious 
bless em.
bless em.
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Its an opinion disagreeing with an opinion that most people agree with.
So yeah in a word.
xrnzaaas
Member
It's not pushing boundries and yet it still performs worse than some of the better looking and more hardware demanding PS5 games like Ratchet & Clank Rift Apart. I expected rock solid 60fps in the performance mode based on the looks, but even in this mode there are occasional dips.
And yeah, they shouldn't be talking about non-technical stuff in the same video, because it suddenly becomes very subjective.
And yeah, they shouldn't be talking about non-technical stuff in the same video, because it suddenly becomes very subjective.
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Dream-Knife
Banned
I think people are missing the point:
1. Yes games don't need to look good to be good. One of the best games this year, Cruelty Squad, looks like ass on purpose.
2. A channel devoted to the technical analysis of games is now saying that a game is good based off game critique, and not just doing a technical analysis.
1. Yes games don't need to look good to be good. One of the best games this year, Cruelty Squad, looks like ass on purpose.
2. A channel devoted to the technical analysis of games is now saying that a game is good based off game critique, and not just doing a technical analysis.
TonyK
Member
For me is a cross gen game. Maybe it has been released only on PS5 but from the first gameplay it smelled PS4. I have the same opinion for Returnal or The Medium, for example. It's simply understandable, the development of these games started years ago, so in their core they are closer to last gen more than next gen.
And as DF said, it's fine. In all generations happens the same. Not all games have Naughty Dog technical scope. I played a lot of PS5 games and do you know what I enjoyed more? Yakuza like a Dragon.
And as DF said, it's fine. In all generations happens the same. Not all games have Naughty Dog technical scope. I played a lot of PS5 games and do you know what I enjoyed more? Yakuza like a Dragon.
GymWolf
Member
Nobody and their mothers expect arkane to push graphic in any shape or form, df just has the good taste of not shitting on a game that never had great graphics since the first trailer.
It looks good enough and it's hardly ugly, overall it looks better than returnal imo.
Absurdly high Pc requisites and the game being nextgen only is surely some bullshit tho.
It looks good enough and it's hardly ugly, overall it looks better than returnal imo.
Absurdly high Pc requisites and the game being nextgen only is surely some bullshit tho.
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Madjako
Member
Thanks for these images, reminds me how amazing the PS3 was
ZywyPL
Banned
I think cross-gen games being next-gen-only comes mostly from the ease of development for the devs, you can easily get high-res textures, 60FPS, better resolution and what's not, instead of having to spend a ton of time on optimizing and cutting the corners to make a game (just barely) run at 30FPS on PS4/XB1. I think devs are simply tired already with developing games on those old platforms with so many constraints when they have those new machines at their disposal. Maybe some day in the future the game will indeed get ported onto older consoles, who knows, there's always a chance.
Bulletbrain
Member
I don't think people get what technical commentary is. Let's take a few example.
1) Forza Horizon 5 uses detailed high resolution photogrammetry to recreate environmental detail - This is technical commentary
2) Forza horizon environments look better than GT7 - This is NOT technical commentary. Purely subjective.
3) Metro exodes EE lighting is more accurate than Last of Us 2 owing to its RT implementation that accurately maps bounce lighting on a scene - technical commentary
4) Metro Exodus EE lighting is better looking than Last of Us 2 lighting - Subjective
5) XSX version of Y game holds 60Fps perfectly. PS5 version has a few instances of frame drops to sub 55fps. - technical
Convincing someone whether a game looks good or bad is not DFs job. You have your own eyes for that. They gave a technical review, but also gave their subjective opinion.
1) Forza Horizon 5 uses detailed high resolution photogrammetry to recreate environmental detail - This is technical commentary
2) Forza horizon environments look better than GT7 - This is NOT technical commentary. Purely subjective.
3) Metro exodes EE lighting is more accurate than Last of Us 2 owing to its RT implementation that accurately maps bounce lighting on a scene - technical commentary
4) Metro Exodus EE lighting is better looking than Last of Us 2 lighting - Subjective
5) XSX version of Y game holds 60Fps perfectly. PS5 version has a few instances of frame drops to sub 55fps. - technical
Convincing someone whether a game looks good or bad is not DFs job. You have your own eyes for that. They gave a technical review, but also gave their subjective opinion.
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martino
Member
DF guys more than often quickly give their opinion on games at some point in their analysis....
So why do you need a thread this time ? Why are you only noticing it and making it something important this time ?
Maybe you should introspect on that, don't you think ? doing the exercise i doubt you will find good motivations.
So why do you need a thread this time ? Why are you only noticing it and making it something important this time ?
Maybe you should introspect on that, don't you think ? doing the exercise i doubt you will find good motivations.
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Redneckerz
Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
So the issue is that DF stated that because Deathloop isn't aiming for the highest end graphics that this is OK.
Ironically Deathloop does feature some high end visuals and even raytracing which does have a significant impact on the core visuals, which DF demonstrated.
Putting that aside, lets address OP meaningfully.
Because if we were to take your argument, every developer should strive for the latest in tech. Why release a game on UE4 when UE5 is available? The reason is time and costs.
In regards to Deathloop, and like many Arkane games, their focus is less on technology and more on stylization. The original Dishonored used UE3, but had a strong artstyle generating a rather unique look where most lighting was baked in. Dishonored 2 moved to a physically based pipeline like many games in 2016, but artstyle was prevalent. The same is happening here with Deathloop. Its not about the latest in tech, but good enough to support the artstyle the team is going for.
Nevertheless there are clear visual differences and the sharpness is very prevalent. Despite all that, Deathloop does support raytraced shadows and AO and the video details that the visual difference is rather stark when compared to rasterization only. Visually, those shadows and the grounding of objects have more in common with Metro Exodus's shadow implementation.
Deathloop is a game very much centered around its artstyle.
If your argument were to hold up, you should have raised a similar complaint back when Borderlands 3 was released. After all, it does not look that much different than its last gen counter part, Borderlands 2.*
* There are clear visual differences, but the core artstyle is very much the same between Borderlands titles.
You seem upset about the developers decision to go for a strong artstyle where technology is more in service of said artstyle, rather than be at the forefront. You expect that every game releasing on this generation consoles needs to have technology at the forefront rather than being in service of.
I do not share that argument because i don't think that the comment made is actually harmful. What both John and Alex mention is that the game is looking gorgeous and it does so through the aformentioned artstyle. They call it polished, not so much by technical expertise, but because the gameworld is visually very consistent. This is a known plus by Arkane and it occurs here aswell.
*Ironically, the same was said by Microsoft when they revealed their Xbox One in 2013. I wonder if Slimysnake had the same issues then regarding that console?
Because of diminishing returns the visual differences become smaller and smaller. A rather obvious one is however Physically Based Rendering which Deathloop uses to significant effect. That alone makes it clearly stand out from KZ3.
Ironically Deathloop does feature some high end visuals and even raytracing which does have a significant impact on the core visuals, which DF demonstrated.
Putting that aside, lets address OP meaningfully.
What they are saying is that the overall technical package of the game is significant enough to impress, despite not pushing the latest and greatest technology.
Because if we were to take your argument, every developer should strive for the latest in tech. Why release a game on UE4 when UE5 is available? The reason is time and costs.
In regards to Deathloop, and like many Arkane games, their focus is less on technology and more on stylization. The original Dishonored used UE3, but had a strong artstyle generating a rather unique look where most lighting was baked in. Dishonored 2 moved to a physically based pipeline like many games in 2016, but artstyle was prevalent. The same is happening here with Deathloop. Its not about the latest in tech, but good enough to support the artstyle the team is going for.
Nevertheless there are clear visual differences and the sharpness is very prevalent. Despite all that, Deathloop does support raytraced shadows and AO and the video details that the visual difference is rather stark when compared to rasterization only. Visually, those shadows and the grounding of objects have more in common with Metro Exodus's shadow implementation.
Deathloop is a game very much centered around its artstyle.
If your argument were to hold up, you should have raised a similar complaint back when Borderlands 3 was released. After all, it does not look that much different than its last gen counter part, Borderlands 2.*
* There are clear visual differences, but the core artstyle is very much the same between Borderlands titles.
Back in 2011 practically no game used PBR for the rendering of materials. Deathloop's materials look far more realistic, as in that pottery looks more like pottery and less videogamey.
You seem upset about the developers decision to go for a strong artstyle where technology is more in service of said artstyle, rather than be at the forefront. You expect that every game releasing on this generation consoles needs to have technology at the forefront rather than being in service of.
I do not share that argument because i don't think that the comment made is actually harmful. What both John and Alex mention is that the game is looking gorgeous and it does so through the aformentioned artstyle. They call it polished, not so much by technical expertise, but because the gameworld is visually very consistent. This is a known plus by Arkane and it occurs here aswell.
Halo Infinite was partially mocked because unlike Deathloop it takes into account the Xbox One. As such you are limited by your possibilities and the initial reveal didn't look technically refined (I won't say it looked bad, as it didn't). A lot of that had to do with a lack of polish, aswell as artist-defined choices, such as the time of day. In the next reveal after the criticism, Halo Infinite looked a lot better, which is primarily due to artist-defined choices.
Its statements like this that the possible accusation of bias becomes apparent, let alone judging the game on a percieved lack of talent because in your eyes the game does not have that next-gen seal of approval.
Stuff like this is absolute hyperbole and suggests you will need to define which indie shooters of today look like a PS2 game.
To highlight a percieved difference in technological prowess and being agitated that an outlet like DF thinks its okay that Deathloop isn't targetting the highest end of graphics.*
*Ironically, the same was said by Microsoft when they revealed their Xbox One in 2013. I wonder if Slimysnake had the same issues then regarding that console?
Apparently doing that is issuing excuses for why the game looks like it does. And apparently within those excuses we can't state that art-style plays a big part in here, because a PS3 game looks similar despite the difference in artstyle.
Because of diminishing returns the visual differences become smaller and smaller. A rather obvious one is however Physically Based Rendering which Deathloop uses to significant effect. That alone makes it clearly stand out from KZ3.
Thirty7ven
Banned
If it were a Sony game though it would be getting slapped left and right.
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martino
Member
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
Always thought it looked cross gen,
It's OK I'm not buying it anyway.
It's OK I'm not buying it anyway.
martino
Member
even with the 320 pixel trick to hide most of them i can see texture, geometry and the level of details is incomparable.
PS3
Now post 4k size gif of this...maybe you will see what you can't with your bad vision with this resolution
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ZywyPL
Banned
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Evilms
Banned
whether it's in 4K or not, it's ugly, visually for a next gen game (PC/PS5) it's a mess, he is pitiful
how can we defend such a mess ?
Interfectum
Member
Killzone gifs... dat nostalgia. 
I miss the Wii60 vs SDF wars. Was far more clean and fun.
I miss the Wii60 vs SDF wars. Was far more clean and fun.
Hawks Eclipse
Member
Deathloop ain't got nothing against the mighty Power of The Cell™
Ass of Can Whooping
Member
Hahahaha if you gonna bitch about something this trivial be expected to answer the "hard" questions
I'm suprised to see you stoop to my level. I thought you were one of the mature posters on here.
Welcome to the degenerates club
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ZywyPL
Banned
There's neither anything "next-gen" in games like Returnal, DS Remake, Sackboy, Destruction AllStars etc... but hey, you do you.
Redneckerz
Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
Not me. I just addressed the OP and ill await his responses. Meanwhile i see OP liking KZ3 gifs, so at the very least he is online.
martino
Member
Derktron
Banned
