Riky
$MSFT
Does the PC not have that mode?
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Microsoft Engineers Helping Get Baldur's Gate 3 Split-Screen Working on Xbox Series S
- Thread starter Musilla
- Start date
Does the PC not have that mode?
Mr Moose
Member
PC doesn't have conditions for it not to release without feature parity, Xbox does.
cireza
Member
I could share a ton of examples of this happening in the IT world, in which I work. There are developer portals and you can get expertise and consultants when you encounter specific needs and issues. And this is specifically related to MS, and Azure for example. Which is also used in video-game development pipelines, by the way. We are customers for MS, they ARE going to help if we need them.
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cireza
Member
Take a look at cancelled games, you will find a ton of them.
Regardless, why laugh at my post? i didn’t make anything up. The entire platform, both X and S, have been delayed indefinitely beyond initial launch window because the S can’t handle a feature and MS requires parity of features.
can you share one example where a multi platform game was delayed on X, past PS5 launch date, solely because of required parity with S? Cause that is happening here.
Topher
Gold Member
Probably does. Minimum requirements for PC already call for more combined RAM than the XSS though. In any case, I imagine running on minimum specs and playing split screen coop isn't going to achieve the target Larian is aiming for with XSS. PC performance automatically has more variance than consoles.
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Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
I understand your point, but are there any examples in the video game industry?
Banjo64
cumsessed
So that’s a no.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
This is just discussing semantics at this point, MS are 'helping' Larian with the Series S version, just like the ICE team was 'helping' third party developers get to grip with the difficult PS3 development back in that period.
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
Is Series S comparable to PS3 in terms of difficulty in development and alien architecture?
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adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
I don't have development kits for either so I wouldn't know first hand.
The point is, what we're seeing here is not a unique phenomenon.
The alien architecture quip was
.Sony really lucked out that generation. That design wasn‘t exactly the same as sticking with cartridge after optical became the norm. But still a tall order for some of the devs.
diffusionx
Gold Member
The issue isn't the GPU, as it was surely designed to run the same stuff as XSX but in a lower resolution (same as the XOS/XOX last gen, but in reverse). The real issue is the RAM, it's just not enough. I am sure MS engineers set it up this way thinking it would need less memory because of the lower resoution, but it turns out that you can use the RAM for game data as well as some devs will choose to use more of it. Split screen in a complicated RPG with lots of stuff being tracked seems like one of those use cases.
Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
I guess it must be a hardware issue delaying the PS5 version as well.
Banjo64
cumsessed
It’s not semantics.
Larian have had to delay this game indefinitely on Xbox, whilst it’s seeing a release on its PlayStation counterpart in September.
This is not about optimisation and tooling. This is about not being able to even get the game in a shipable state.
Further, everyone would agree that the PS3 was an architectural nightmare. Meanwhile
Riky
’s actual initial comment that sparked my response was to claim this is not down to a hardware issue. 
DaGwaphics
Member
Seems like the split screen issue is relatively unique at this point, as that isn't something that most modern games are doing. We've already seen a ton of games that bring the PS5/XSX to below 1080p and/or below 30fps and those are still releasing on the XSS just fine.
And even in this case, if MS engineers can get the job done than this isn't as much of a hardware issue as a developer experience thing.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Right, this was exactly what Booty said as well, which a bunch of people mis-quoted a few days back. About when a developer has done their first game on Series S and are working on their next one, they are naturally more aware of the limitations and where to make smart cuts.
Topher
Gold Member
This is what the devs said:
“PS5, we want to hit that 60 FPS, we’re very close to reaching that,” Vincke said.
So we wanted some extra time. It also takes some time to go through submissions. And so that’s how that came to be. On Xbox we need a bit more time. There’s different requirements there. But we’re hitting those too, it just it’s gonna take a little bit of extra time.”
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
The memory limitations are impacting creative design. Who knew?
I'm sure they'll find a way around it with help, but it's already showing to be a headache.
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DaGwaphics
Member
Very true. Good on MS for providing these services when a developer hits a wall.
Topher
Gold Member
The memory limitations are impacting creative design. Who knew?
I'm sure they'll find a way around it with help, but it's already showing to be a headache.
We had multiple devs predict XSS memory would be an issue. Even one from Id. It is what it is.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Don't worry, we have fanatics to handwave away and never asking their favorite brands to do better.We had multiple devs predict XSS memory would be an issue. Even one from Id. It is what it is.
"You get what we give you and defend it to the death!"
"Thank you, sir, may we have another!"
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jm89
Member
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Thirty7ven
Banned
Semantics aside ICE which stands for initiative for common engine, is mostly the beginning of first party network support, which during the PS3 days took on the role of developing tools that would make development easier on the platform. It’s known history that PS3 wasn’t just “alien” hardware because of CELL in terms of concept, there was an actual lack of knowledge on how to develop for the thing. Sony back then thought basically that devs would figure it out, and everyone was starting from scratch.
It’s nothing like these days, where day
0 devs already have everything they need to use the hardware on these consoles.
The biggest change for this generation is data management, in terms of development, everything else is a rather trivial improvement of what already existed.
Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
So it's the same thing.
Valkyria
Banned
And yet PS 5 has a relevase date and Xbox console none.
Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
So what? They are both being delayed because of optimization.
nikolino840
Member
Gen 9 console?
Team Andromeda
Member
Haven't we really moved on from Split screen gaming? It wasn't that great back in the old days and even less so now
Topher
Gold Member
Not exactly, no. The XSS split screen/memory issue is taking a lot more time/effort than reaching 60fps on PS5. One is delayed a week, the other delayed indefinitely.
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Riky
$MSFT
That wasn't my point, if the game runs with the same mode on a PC with a 4gb 5500XT and 8gb of system ram then that's below a Series S as the game is obviously not CPU bound. If the PC version doesn't have that mode then the Series S is the lowest spec machine with it and it makes more sense.
wipeout364
Member
Would they be allowed to scrap the feature entirely? For example remove split screen from XBOX series X then they would have feature parity?
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
FrankWza
Member
The PS5 isn't referred to as an albatross. The s is in this article. There are degrees of difficulty. Context helps. That's why you should read the article and why articles are usually written.
Riky
$MSFT
I don't think you can just use a 1:1 comparison on ram between PC and consoles as many games show. Example Metro Exodus Enhanced Edition needs a minimum of 6gb of Vram on top of 8gb of system ram so that's 4gb more than a Series S but the console runs that game fine.
cireza
Member
This happens in the internal workflow of a game development. It won't be public. What you will get publicly are delays or games being cancelled for whatever X reasons.
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split screen is just one of many things that make dealing with the XSS memory annoying for devs but I'm glad that you have finally admitted it's a XSS issue because l in the other thread you were trying to blame it on some DX issue and I had a back and forth with you about how it is very likely to be the XSS.
cireza
Member
Mortal Kombat X for PlayStation 3, Xbox 360 canceled
The long-delayed PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 versions of Mortal Kombat X have finally been canceled by publisher Warner Bros. Interactive, according to a statement posted on the company's community...
www.polygon.com
Dying Light PS3, Xbox 360 ports cancelled, "just couldn't run the game"
Dying Light is coming to PC, PS4 and Xbox One. Everything else has been given the flick.
www.vg247.com
There are many of these.
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Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
Not delays, I am talking about examples of a console manufacturer sending devs to help with a game (without a deal), which was the original discussion between us.
In what world do you guys live in ?
You don't need to have some exclusivity deal or planned sessions to actually ask for technical support on the hardware and software you are developing on. If you are facing technical issues, you can ask for expertise from MS, Sony or Nintendo... Of course they are going to try and help, because as a developer/publisher, you actually are their customer.
Guilty_AI
Member
The PC will have that mode as well, but theres no contractual obligation to make split screen coop run smoothly on the bare minimum specs, unlike with the Series S.
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Slicker than your average
Banned
This thread is just full of the same people either outright saying it's not a hardware problem (which it is) or saying it's normal ( haven't heard that before).Don't worry, we have fanatics to handwave away and never asking their favorite brands to do better.
"You get what we give you and defend it to the death!"
"Thank you, sir, may we have another!"
Why can't they just accept that in some cases their favorite console is flawed and move on.
Imagine if they held MS to account for capping this gen with a weak console, rather than blame Devs.
Banjo64
cumsessed
You are posting previous gen versions being cancelled. Not current gen versions.Mortal Kombat X for PlayStation 3, Xbox 360 canceled
The long-delayed PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 versions of Mortal Kombat X have finally been canceled by publisher Warner Bros. Interactive, according to a statement posted on the company's community...
Dying Light PS3, Xbox 360 ports cancelled, "just couldn't run the game"
Dying Light is coming to PC, PS4 and Xbox One. Everything else has been given the flick.
There are many of these.
FrankWza
Member
You're claiming someone is pushing a narrative. It's not an opinion piece. Read the article.
cireza
Member
Right, it stopped happening when we moved to the following gen.
As I already replied, this is not publicly disclosed because it makes no sense. So it is happening all the time without you knowing it.
Banjo64
cumsessed
You are not to following the conversation.
Can you give me an example of a game being postponed indefinitely on just one of the two main console platforms?
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
That seems extremely unfair then. You said, "I was pushing a narrative" and that it's extremely common for console manufacturers to send devs to third-party studios to help with game development without any deal, and that there are countless examples.
I asked for an example, and you couldn't provide even a single one.
Now you're saying it happens behind closed doors, and I can't have such an example. But you know of it? How do you know of it when it happens behind closed doors? And you know of it enough to accuse me of pushing a narrative?
That's extremely unfair and in very poor taste. You should not have accused me of pushing a narrative.
Topher
Gold Member
Right, which is why there isn't much point in referencing PC minimum specs in relation to consoles at all really. Minimum requirements are really just guidelines for targeted performance. Often times, the dev will actually publish the target resolution/frame rate alongside the specs. Plenty of PC games will run on PCs with specs lower than the "minimum" and we've seen PC games run horribly on PCs far above the recommended specs. So not really comparable to static hardware like consoles are.
Riky
$MSFT
We've seen Series S have far lower performance so I doubt it's that, I suspect it's the resolution they are using and when that translates to split screen if it's too low it might become unplayable. If they raise the resolution they lose performance.
Guilty_AI
Member
Performance isnt the only type of issue they can run in, massive pop-ins and second long frequent stutters would be among the problems they'd be facing due to low memory available. Those would not be acceptable for a release, unlike mere slowdowns to 20-15 fps.
cireza
Member
Because I work in a professional environment of developers (I lead a team by the way, NOT video-games but this isn't that different, there are common stacks and infrastructures used) and this is simply how things work. We have required MS assistance several times in the past. But it is fine for you not to know, if you are not part of this world. This is how it is supposed to be anyway.
Try to use common sense for a second. As a console manufacturer, providing hardware, tools, infrastructure and software for development, aren't you going to support companies trying to build something on your device/infra ? These people are your customers. They will ask for help, and you will help them. Of course when you send experts and consultants to help them, you can/will send a bill as well most probably (for X days of support or whatever, unless there is actually an issue on your side, in which case they will have all the rights to raise an incident and ask for help). The price can also be covered in their contract with you. I already stated this anyway. If they are a very big customer, they will even have notable impact on features and enhancements you should provide. It is their right, as they are paying for a service.
You are not forced into accepting it, do as you wish
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