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Halo: Reach |OT7| What are They to Say Now?

X

xxjuicesxx

Member
Nutter and I both hit our 50th perfection three nights ago. I checked because he seemed to get like one every other game when we were playing thought he would have more than me.

So close to that fuckin TURKEY!

Nutter got robbed by quitters, 2 perfections, ragequit game, Perfection. Almost!
 
C

Computron

Member
FyreWulff said:
First, I don't think it was Jon Cable. It was Barney Cotton (from what I remember).

Secondly, even if Forge World had maintained itself as separated maps, they would have still all looked like they did now, just the other FW areas would have been part of the skybox instead of playspace.
Click to expand...

Why would they be in each other's skybox? They would have been unique completely separate maps, just like tempest is its own map.

FyreWulff said:
The reason you can put a crap ton of pieces on FW maps in the first place is due to the simplicity of the objects and the map. Versus maps like Damnation which are loaded to the gills on graphics and have like.. one placable scenery object. In addition, the uniform color makes them LOD fairly well at a distance and prevents maps looking wrong when the host forgets to set their color correctly. You may not have noticed it but Sandbox was basically one color (brown) so that things would LOD well and be less intensive to draw. Even though Sandbox pieces looked somewhat detailed, when you look at the edge of some pieces you can just see that it's convincing parallax mapping and they were actually a simple cube or rectangular prism.

They had a limited time and space for new art to add. You may notice that there's no map since that has actually made completely new Forge World pieces, they just ctrl-c FW's pieces to other maps, especially Tempest.
Click to expand...

Damnation is a bad example. I was going to mention Tempest originally in my post. Either way, both maps are stunning and unique, but one has the Forge Pieces.

But even then, the cold metallic forerunner pieces would work just as well on a wind swept sandy version of Ascension as they would in the green fields of ForgeWorld. they are already in Tempest and look fine. And I am not suggesting they should make more variants of the pieces (Although it would be nice). Not sure what the piece's color has to do with forge world specifically.

There are certain things that modular forge Pieces don't do very well. Namely terrain or any similarly interesting organic geometry. Therefore, I think it would be interesting if Reach shipped with multiple Tempest Like maps rather than one huge ForgeWorld.
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
Computron said:
Damnation is a bad example. I was going to mention Tempest originally in my post. Either way, both maps are stunning and unique, but one has the Forge Pieces. But even then, the cold metallic forerunner pieces would work just as well on a wind swept sandy version of Ascension as they would in the green fields of ForgeWorld. they are already in Tempest and look fine. And I am not suggesting they should make more variants of the pieces (Although it would be nice). Not sure what the piece's color has to do with forge world specifically.

There are certain things that modular forge Pieces don't do very well. Namely terrain or any similarly interesting organic geometry.
Click to expand...

That's a limitation of the system and man hours, really. They talked about possibly being able to carve out landscapes by placing Forge pieces that subtracted from the geometry to carve it out, but the Bungie employee that talked about that said it would have killed him trying to implement in time (as you have to make a whole new system to handle the geometry subtraction ala Red Faction).

If we want to make real geometry we need FC-style heightmap editing at the minimum.

See, the thing is there wouldn't have been a sand-swept Ascension. Without the FW setup we wouldn't have gotten Ascension at all. Shishka discussed this somewhere (I forget where) where the FW variants existed to help increase the map count in the face of other maps being cut. If they had fully modeled Ascension, then we wouldn't have gotten Asylum or The Island for example. Reflection almost got cut until it was given a home in Campaign to piggyback off the artist's time. A nice side effect is those maps serve as a demo of what the Forge system can do.

Tempest may look stunning but if you sit there and look at how it's set up, it's very cleverly limited in the lines of sight and simplicity to keep performance up. But it also had the usual DLC benefit of being developed against a known engine instead of a moving target like Forge World. You can't see more than half the map from any vantage point on the normal setup. If you're on one of the sides, the middle acts as a horizon preventing you from seeing the other part of the map. The rocks in the middle block vis from base to base. Even if you're standing on the middle rocks you can only see half the map (because the other half is behind you and not being rendered). And if you look at base from the middle and slowly turn around to look at the other one, you'll notice that the sides have very little detail so that you don't get into a situation where a significant amount of geometry can be on the screen at one time. Before the other base comes into view, the significantly detailed side of the map has already left your field of view.
 
K

kylej

Banned
Nutter said:
Too bad people cant be as bad as you, that getting a perfection in Reach seems good.
Click to expand...

dfd9cf40c68c.gif
 
C

Computron

Member
FyreWulff said:
That's a limitation of the system and man hours, really. They talked about possibly being able to carve out landscapes by placing Forge pieces that subtracted from the geometry to carve it out, but the Bungie employee that talked about that said it would have killed him trying to implement in time (as you have to make a whole new system to handle the geometry subtraction ala Red Faction).

If we want to make real geometry we need FC-style heightmap editing at the minimum.

See, the thing is there wouldn't have been a sand-swept Ascension. Without the FW setup we wouldn't have gotten Ascension at all. Shishka discussed this somewhere (I forget where) where the FW variants existed to help increase the map count in the face of other maps being cut. If they had fully modeled Ascension, then we wouldn't have gotten Asylum or The Island for example. Reflection almost got cut until it was given a home in Campaign to piggyback off the artist's time. A nice side effect is those maps serve as a demo of what the Forge system can do.

Tempest may look stunning but if you sit there and look at how it's set up, it's very cleverly limited in the lines of sight and simplicity to keep performance up. But it also had the usual DLC benefit of being developed against a known engine instead of a moving target like Forge World.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I was editing my posts away as you were replying. You may want to read the changes I made.

You make several good points. I would love it if you could link to Shishka's post about the history of producing Forge World.
I was under the impression that they had a lot of the map all produced with unique art before mashing it into the monolithic green/blue monster they call Forge World.


In my OP, I was never suggesting for them to change the way Forge works, but instead for them to just ship with more
uniquely modeled maps while giving us the same forge pieces, i.e. more Tempests, less ForgeWorlds.

If Forge was the be-all end-all of map making, no one would care when new map packs get announced unless they had a different set of Forge pieces.
But for something like a Far Cry style map editor, you would have to significantly change the way Halo achieves it's painterly aesthetic,
since you can't have dynamicly sculptable environments and Halo's awesome radiosity lighting, which I believe to be one of the key things that
contributes to its style. At least without completely overhauling their engine like what they are supposedly doing for Tiger.


Either way, I wish unique maps were more prevelant in MM, or at the very least, more easily voted upon.
 
S

Steelyuhas

Member
FyreWulff said:
That's a limitation of the system and man hours, really. They talked about possibly being able to carve out landscapes by placing Forge pieces that subtracted from the geometry to carve it out, but the Bungie employee that talked about that said it would have killed him trying to implement in time (as you have to make a whole new system to handle the geometry subtraction ala Red Faction).

If we want to make real geometry we need FC-style heightmap editing at the minimum.

See, the thing is there wouldn't have been a sand-swept Ascension. Without the FW setup we wouldn't have gotten Ascension at all. Shishka discussed this somewhere (I forget where) where the FW variants existed to help increase the map count in the face of other maps being cut. If they had fully modeled Ascension, then we wouldn't have gotten Asylum or The Island for example. Reflection almost got cut until it was given a home in Campaign to piggyback off the artist's time. A nice side effect is those maps serve as a demo of what the Forge system can do.

Tempest may look stunning but if you sit there and look at how it's set up, it's very cleverly limited in the lines of sight and simplicity to keep performance up. But it also had the usual DLC benefit of being developed against a known engine instead of a moving target like Forge World. You can't see more than half the map from any vantage point on the normal setup. If you're on one of the sides, the middle acts as a horizon preventing you from seeing the other part of the map. The rocks in the middle block vis from base to base. Even if you're standing on the middle rocks you can only see half the map (because the other half is behind you and not being rendered). And if you look at base from the middle and slowly turn around to look at the other one, you'll notice that the sides have very little detail so that you don't get into a situation where a significant amount of geometry can be on the screen at one time. Before the other base comes into view, the significantly detailed side of the map has already left your field of view.
Click to expand...

Morale of the story: Implementing MP maps into campaign was a poor idea, as Bungie themselves admitted. Took time and resources, and resulted in MP maps being cut because their location in campaign disappeared or they couldn't find a place in campaign for the map.
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
Steelyuhas said:
Morale of the story: Implementing MP maps into campaign was a poor idea, as Bungie themselves admitted. Took time and resources, and resulted in MP maps being cut because their location in campaign disappeared or they couldn't find a place in campaign for the map.
Click to expand...

Well to be fair that happened to Halo 3 maps as well. It just so happened that Guardian was too far along to justify being cut when it's campaign location disappeared.
 
C

Computron

Member
Morale of my story is this:

Forge is great at making boxy, modular scifi interiors and city scapes.

Therefore, I think Bungie/343 should be the ones making maps that focus more on it's shortcomings, like big organic environments, as they do with Tempest. They are the only ones with the proper tools.

But as previously stated, DLC maps are very rarely playable in MM. Fixing the map voting seems fruitless (Every new bulletin claims to have increased the variety of maps, but it certainly does not feel that way)

So, Instead of shipping with one monolithic green map, It would be interesting to see what would have been if they shipped the pieces that make it up as unique maps with unique art.

More variety, anyone?
 
N

ncsuDuncan

Member
heckfu said:
New Duncan hit waiting to be born, "Troll or Asshole"
Click to expand...

Not my best work, but I like to think the short turnaround makes up for it.

Play me.

Sing:

Trollin', trollin', trollin'.
Trollin', trollin', trollin'.
Trollin', trollin', trollin'.
Trollin', trollin', trollin'.
Asshole!
Hah! Hah!

Keep trollin', trollin', trollin',
Though the threads are groanin',
Keep them Gaffers lollin', asshole.
Through rain and wind and weather,
We'll laugh together,
Wishin' Nutter was not a troll.
All the things I'm missin',
Good put-downs, GIFs, and dissin',
Are waiting at the end of my scroll.

Lock 'em out, Head 'em long,
Head 'em long, Lock 'em out.
Lock 'em out, Head 'em long:
Asshole.
Shut 'em out, Hang 'em High,
Hang 'em High, shut 'em out,
Shut 'em out,
Hang 'em High:
Asshole!
Hah! Hah!

Keep bloomin', bloomin', bloomin',
Gaffers disapprovin',
Keep them rifles bloomin', asshole.
Don't try to understand 'em,
Just pace an' twitch (it's random)
Soon 343 will show control.
My heart's calculatin',
Halo 4 will be waitin':
Be waitin' in the depth of my soul.

Lock 'em out, Head 'em long,
Head 'em long, Lock 'em out.
Lock 'em out, Head 'em long:
Asshole.
Shut 'em out, Hang 'em High,
Hang 'em High, shut 'em out,
Shut 'em out, Hang 'em High:
Asshole!

(Trollin', trollin', trollin'.)
(Trollin', trollin', trollin'.)
Hah!
(Trollin', trollin', trollin'.)
Hah!
(Trollin', trollin', trollin'.)
Asshole.
Hah!
Asshole!
 
C

Computron

Member
Why does the reuse of content seem wasteful to people?

They make the maps specifically for matchmaking, but then decided it would be cool if you saw them in campaign.

CTRL+C, CTRL+V. Done, cool campaign encounter complete with little extra effort.
 
B

Bregmann Roche

Member
Computron said:
Why does the reuse of content seem wasteful to people?

They make the maps specifically for matchmaking, but then decided it would be cool if you saw them in campaign.

CTRL+C, CTRL+V. Done, cool campaign encounter complete with little extra effort.
Click to expand...

I know nothing about game development, but if I remember correctly the issue is that multiplayer spaces require testing/iteration/whatever and campaign spaces need the same. Changes made on MP side of the space may not work well with changes (or lack of changes) that the campaign designers want.

I'm pretty sure Lehto (sp?) said that if they had it to do all over again they wouldn't have tried to shoehorn MP spaces into Campaign. That's a good enough reason to be fearful of it happening in another Halo game.
 
S

Steelyuhas

Member
FyreWulff said:
Well to be fair that happened to Halo 3 maps as well. It just so happened that Guardian was too far along to justify being cut when it's campaign location disappeared.
Click to expand...

Well some maps had similar environments, but no maps was directly placed into campaign, and it was required that the maps be placed directly into campaign in Reach. That didn't happen in Halo 3. I think its safe to assume that Reach's situation had a greater impact on the maps that made it into the game than in Halo 3.

Computron said:
Why does the reuse of content seem wasteful to people?

They make the maps specifically for matchmaking, but then decided it would be cool if you saw them in campaign.

CTRL+C, CTRL+V. Done, cool campaign encounter complete with little extra effort.
Click to expand...

Pretty sure its a little more complex than that.
 
T

Tunavi

Banned
Bregmann Roche said:
I'm pretty sure Lehto (sp?) said that if they had it to do all over again they wouldn't have tried to shoehorn MP spaces into Campaign. That's a good enough reason to be fearful of it happening in another Halo game.
Click to expand...
"remember when we said we'd never reuse multiplayer space for campaign in Halo? We weren't lying, we did it for Destiny!"
 
C

Computron

Member
Hydranockz said:
I just play the Anniversary playlists. No forge world there :p
Click to expand...

You don't understand. It's not that I hate ForgeWorld, it's that I want to play Reach with maps that were professionally designed for Reach.

I don't want to play an adaptation or Blood Gulch in a game who's sandbox is not meant for that map. Hemmorhage just does not feel right with a DMR and Reach warthogs.

Say what you want about Reach's gameplay, but I want to play Vanilla Reach, on maps that are designed for it's sandbox.

Anniversary only has anniversary maps and anniversary gametypes. That works and is fun, But I also paid for:

Boardwalk
Boneyard
Countdown
Powerhouse
Reflection
Spire
Sword Base
Zealot
Anchor 9
Breakpoint
Tempest
Condemned
Highlands

But in playlist like BTB, I practically only get Forge world.



Bregmann Roche said:
I know nothing about game development, but if I remember correctly the issue is that multiplayer spaces require testing/iteration/whatever and campaign spaces need the same. Changes made on MP side of the space may not work well with changes (or lack of changes) that the campaign designers want.

I'm pretty sure Lehto (sp?) said that if they had it to do all over again they wouldn't have tried to shoehorn MP spaces into Campaign. That's a good enough reason to be fearful of it happening in another Halo game.
Click to expand...


Absolutely correct, but tell me, how much time did you spend in those areas, and what was so bad about that encounter?

I'm sure they do gameplay changes for single player, but its a 2 minute long encounter with free geometry and art, all you need to set up is the AI.

Hell, campaign Reflection was 30 seconds of dodging buggers. big whoop.

Maybe I am horribly wrong but It doesn't seem that difficult.

Tunavi said:
"remember when we said we'd never reuse multiplayer space for campaign in Halo? We weren't lying, we did it for Destiny!"
Click to expand...

I am amusing that's a typo

Wow, I wonder what gave them such a distaste for it, I thought it was cool.
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
wwm0nkey said:
Halo 2 Vista is still down apparently :/
Click to expand...

I'm not surprised in the least

FyreWulff said:
Given how much of an unshit they give about Halo 3's poor matchmaking times, I'm not going to be surprised when Halo 2 Vista is still inoperable a week from now.
Click to expand...


Computron said:
Why would they be in each other's skybox? They would have been unique completely separate maps, just like tempest is its own map.
Click to expand...

Cotton's own words - the other FW maps were going to be in the skybox of each other to show that they were in the same location, since Cotton was already working with a 'master' map file that already had them all combined. Then he figured out how to make that master map work as a map itself.
 
B

Bregmann Roche

Member
Computron said:
Absolutely correct, but tell me, how much time did you spend in those areas, and what was so bad about that encounter?

I'm sure they do gameplay changes for single player, but its a 2 minute long encounter with free geometry and art, all you need to set up is the AI.
Click to expand...

Like I said, I don't know anything about game development, but my understanding from what Bungie folks have said, is that the efficiencies that appear to exist in that system do not, in fact, work out to be a net positive for MP and Campaign development.
 
C

Computron

Member
FyreWulff said:
Given how much of an unshit they give about Halo 3's poor matchmaking times, I'm not going to be surprised when Halo 2 Vista is still inoperable a week from now.
Click to expand...

H2V was abandoned entirely and the dev team disbanded. Here is a great explanation from Modacity on why you shouldn't give a shit about H2V either: Why some people of Modacity hate Halo 2 Vista

That and lack of working in-game voice chat stopped me from making maps and playing altogether.

Wouldn't surprise me if it never comes back online.

Isn't Halo 3's populations almost as low as H2V's?
 
C

Computron

Member
FyreWulff said:
Cotton's own words - the other FW maps were going to be in the skybox of each other to show that they were in the same location, since Cotton was already working with a 'master' map file that already had them all combined. Then he figured out how to make that master map work as a map itself.
Click to expand...

Thanks, that's very Interesting.

Do the Bungie folks post often on NeoGAF? My account just got activated 2 days ago, Guess I need to Lurk Moar. I love to read about Bungie's Production.
 
T

Tawpgun

Member
ncsuDuncan said:
Not my best work, but I like to think the short turnaround makes up for it.

Play me.

Sing:

Trollin', trollin', trollin'.
Trollin', trollin', trollin'.
Trollin', trollin', trollin'.
Trollin', trollin', trollin'.
Asshole!
Hah! Hah!

Keep trollin', trollin', trollin',
Though the threads are groanin',
Keep them Gaffers lollin', asshole.
Through rain and wind and weather,
We'll laugh together,
Wishin' Nutter was not a troll.
All the things I'm missin',
Good put-downs, GIFs, and dissin',
Are waiting at the end of my scroll.

Lock 'em out, Head 'em long,
Head 'em long, Lock 'em out.
Lock 'em out, Head 'em long:
Asshole.
Shut 'em out, Hang 'em High,
Hang 'em High, shut 'em out,
Shut 'em out,
Hang 'em High:
Asshole!
Hah! Hah!

Keep bloomin', bloomin', bloomin',
Gaffers disapprovin',
Keep them rifles bloomin', asshole.
Don't try to understand 'em,
Just pace an' twitch (it's random)
Soon 343 will show control.
My heart's calculatin',
Halo 4 will be waitin':
Be waitin' in the depth of my soul.

Lock 'em out, Head 'em long,
Head 'em long, Lock 'em out.
Lock 'em out, Head 'em long:
Asshole.
Shut 'em out, Hang 'em High,
Hang 'em High, shut 'em out,
Shut 'em out, Hang 'em High:
Asshole!

(Trollin', trollin', trollin'.)
(Trollin', trollin', trollin'.)
Hah!
(Trollin', trollin', trollin'.)
Hah!
(Trollin', trollin', trollin'.)
Asshole.
Hah!
Asshole!
Click to expand...

So umm..

Why don't all of these have their own section on HaloGAF.com?
 
N

ncsuDuncan

Member
P

PNut

Banned
Ramirez said:
Good luck with that one brah.
Click to expand...

Yeah, wasn't it because a bunch of Gaf kids were bitching about getting dumped on in TS Shotty Snipers in Halo 3 all the time, and he told them to wait it out because Snipers would have it's own playlist eventually?

HaloGAF lost a great ally that day.
 
R

Ramirez

Member
PNut said:
Yeah, wasn't it because a bunch of Gaf kids were bitching about getting dumped on in TS Shotty Snipers in Halo 3 all the time, and he told them to wait it out because Snipers would have it's own playlist eventually?

HaloGAF lost a great ally that day.
Click to expand...

I think you have him mixed up with Ferrex on that topic.
 
T

Tashi

343i Lead Esports Producer
Why would Luke wanna come in here and talk about a game he's never played before? Makes no sense.

lololollololololololol
 
K

kittens

Unconfirmed Member
Is XBL down for anyone else? Just crapped out on me while trying to farm achievements with a bunch of ither HaloGAFers, lol.
 
H

Havok

Member
I don't think Prisoner could have worse spawns if they actively tried to make them shittier. Two guys on my team plus me are hanging out up at OS spawn, then two of them spawn three feet from us. We then spawn in the bottom level get-fucked hole and are at an immediate disadvantage. There's an entire top level hallway that is never used.

Ship it.
 
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