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[Black_Stride]

40 million active live accounts and 66 million shipped consoles suggests that online connectivity isn't much of an issue, especially considering 2/3 of those consoles didn't come with wifi. People without internet access won't be buying the console for a long time anyway and will likely be the ones buying the $100 360's over the next 3-5 years.

If they choose to not do this, it won't be because people can't hook up their consoles to the net.

Whats that got to do with anything....you do know its possible to connect to the internet without Wifi right?

1/3 of their users being alienated isnt something any company could scurf at.
I think you will be shocked to know how many X360/PS3 user buy launch day consoles without having broadband or just dont want to connect their console(no router or whatever).

You must have a jaded view of this situation.....MS losing 20+ million possible users is collasal, its a huge issue to say the absolute least.
Chances are those 20 million users will be jumping ship to Ninty or Sony.
This sounds more and more like console suicide.

Jesus, if these rumours of a 6670 powered follow up are true, all of a sudden a Wii U looks more and more appealing, a console i had previously dismissed as Nintendo's Dreamcast level brain fart, simply because of the fact i trust Nintendo Dev teams to deliver better games with very limited hardware, rather than the numerous 3rd party devs that will be on Microsoft's underpowered box of fail.

Dreamcast level brain fart?....i dont know if i should bother......but i will continue nontheless.

How is a modified 6670 considered underpowered now?
The 6670 in a dedicated console would/will produce visuals(im guessing you care about this alot) far surpassing anything you have seen on consoles so far.
The simple addition of DX11 support will change the whole landscape of what console devs will be able to produce.....if you have time look up what UDK scenes can be created using DX11 features....now with full teams behind these project optimizing them for the console....i dont know how anyone could say this thing is underpowered.

 

[Vagabundo]

I think this rumour is a Chinese whisper of sorts. I'd say they are implementing some advanced online pass system to limit/discourage second hand games, but not ban them outright. Unenforceable anyway.

 

[Eusis]

I think this rumour is a Chinese whisper of sorts. I'd say they are implementing some advanced online pass system to limit/discourage second hand games, but not ban them outright. Unenforceable anyway.

It's not banning them so much as not allowing them to work without authorization, which HAS worked for PC games when they aren't straight up pirated, and being a console that wouldn't be happening. But like outlined actually enforcing that would be far too problematic.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Well, that works fine for some genres/game types, but it can't cut it for everything forever. Not to mention sometimes they get kind of annoying like in Star Ocean 4 apparently did and ME2 mildly so.

Right, but like I already stated, MS would not be staying with standard DVDs next gen, anyway. I'm not suggesting anything other than that Blu Ray may not be standard as it hasn't proved itself as universally useful on any current platform. Blu Ray isn't the only way to a large capacity physical format, of course.

Honestly, I don't think it's been a big deal this generation, as pointed out other factors like ram have been holding us back. I do think we're reaching the point however where DVDs just aren't enough, given that Microsoft had to overhaul their (possibly ridiculous?) anti-piracy measures to not be as much of a space hog as they were and give an extra gigabyte or so to use, and that we're seeing more and more games that are actually using more than one disc, and not just ones like Rage that do the mega texture thing. And while digital distribution CAN make it less of a sticking point... man, that's still 20 gigabytes, you'll need decent enough bandwidth to download that reasonably fast, and even putting that aside you're still going to need large hard drives to store the games if that'll be the primary means of delivery (and if you must install games).

Right, you need more local storage space and the necessary bandwidth to more conveniently receive these larger titles. Thankfully, the cost of hard drive space and higher levels of bandwidth have dropped in cost relative to Blu Ray while becoming more or less a requirement to enjoy most new popular services, like modern digital stores and media streaming, that have been and are being promoted as the killer apps for current consoles and future iterations, as well. Are there sticking points to a heavy online strategy? Yes, of course, just as there are for retail and the physical release. On balance, though, for gamers who want more than the major video game release which are more often than not very streamlined and thin game experiences that are targeted at the masses, online/digital is the only relatively safe place for most of the developers of more a dedicated gamer's range of games. Retail is going to be mostly for big budget or family or licensed material. All of which are relying upon the mainstream to succeed. Without gaming factored in, bandwidth and flash/hard drive space are dropping in cost to suit the wider consumer electronics world's technological and consumer sales-based direction. People talk about caps breaking the model or how availability is inconsistent, but caps will give competing providers an opportunity while the technology of internet delivery isn't very concrete for long and, IMO, coming closer to changes which will solve more of the current issues of current infrastructure, if only because the need is greater than just games and media delivery.

 

[rhino4evr]

Is the anti used thing a surprise? Most companies are already doing it. It's called online pass. Thankfully i dont play online, so I don't care. However if it somehow makes it impossible to play offline, then I'm pretty much done with gaming. I use gamefly and sell games to buy new ones. If this happens that industry will be history

 

[TheOddOne]

Is the anti used thing a surprise? Most companies are already doing it. It's called online pass. Thankfully i dont play online, so I don't care. However if it somehow makes it impossible to play offline, then I'm pretty much done with gaming. I use gamefly and sell games to buy new ones. If this happens that industry will be history

I think a standardized online pass system will be the case.

 

[Drazgul]

Microsoft intends to incorporate some sort of anti-used game system as part of their so-called Xbox 720.

Delicious tears...

 

[Clott]

Whatever, I don't rent or buy used.

 

[charlequin]

Mark my words, not only will this anti-used games deal be in effect in the future, but digital downloads will work on time-based access.

People keep theorizing this kind of stuff, but the reality is that while a ton of incremental losses of flexibility and freedom get by, no one in any industry has ever succeeded at this particular kind of brazen control-grab. When products are too inconvenient or follow a model that's too far from people's intuitive understanding of what they "should" get for their money, they stop buying.

There was a time when stores didn't want to carry the iPod because it threatened CD sales. Then the iPod became too big to ignore, so stores carry it and just gouge on accessories.

Oh, Best Buy and Wal-Mart will certainly support a video game console that can't play used discs. The problem is that dedicated game retail would curl up and die and that'd blow a 30%+ hole in the industry's revenue. No platform-holder actually wants to try selling their product exclusively through big-box stores and so no one's actually going to take the kind of steps that would fully eliminate the used market.

(That said, a system-wide implementation of the online pass is certainly plausible.)

Whatever, I don't rent or buy used.

The ability to resell games has much broader implications for the industry than simply its first-order effects on used-game buyers.

 

[Marco1]

Jesus, if these rumours of a 6670 powered follow up are true, all of a sudden a Wii U looks more and more appealing, a console i had previously dismissed as Nintendo's Dreamcast level brain fart, simply because of the fact i trust Nintendo Dev teams to deliver better games with very limited hardware, rather than the numerous 3rd party devs that will be on Microsoft's underpowered box of fail.

I agree, if I'm buying either Nintendo's or MS's console next-gen, it will be Nintendo. Only because if they are both of similar power, I would rather have Nintendo first parties instead of MS. Only halo will save the xbox if they're similar.

 

[Zinthar]

I agree, if I'm buying either Nintendo's or MS's console next-gen, it will be Nintendo. Only because if they are both of similar power, I would rather have Nintendo first parties instead of MS. Only halo will save the xbox if they're similar.

Halo? Remember that's no longer a Bungie series, and a lot of people (perhaps a majority) still believe the best game in the series was CE. I don't think it's the system seller that it once was.

My issue with Nintendo is that I don't have much faith in their ability to get online play right. Still, I'd be more than happy to drop Xbox Live gold if Nintendo can deliver.

 

[smr00]

A part of me hopes the anti-used stuff is true, so i can see microsoft suffer for their stupidity.

 

[Jamesways]

People keep theorizing this kind of stuff, but the reality is that while a ton of incremental losses of flexibility and freedom get by, no one in any industry has ever succeeded at this particular kind of brazen control-grab. When products are too inconvenient or follow a model that's too far from people's intuitive understanding of what they "should" get for their money, they stop buying.

I really hope you're right. I'd hate to see a model like that implemented where you can no longer play old games.

 

[Marco1]

No way is this blocking second-hand games true.
It will finish the nextbox, I have absolutely no doubts about that.
People are not stupid and this is nothing similar to what steam does.

 

[Game Guru]

You know, if all three companies were planning to go all anti-used games, wouldn't the 3DS and Vita have already followed this model? I mean, I can forgive Nintendo since their online plan comes straight from the '90s, but Sony would have definitely have done it with the Vita.

If the anti-used games system happens, it will likely just be MS streamlining the online pass nonsense. If it is actual DRM, then I'll just support Steam, since at the very least, I will get cheap games from the sales they have each week.

 

[cevansdust]

I refuse to support Gamestop and their secondhand game sells. And I have rarely ever buy used games, so for me I don't see what the big deal is. I understand that a lot of gamers only buy cheap games but for the numbers that COD and Halo pull on launch I don't think MST is thinking rationally. If the games can be offered electronically and eventually lower in price like what steam does then that would be great.

Either way they want to protect themselves and developers to some degree, but most importantly they are doing this to "increase profit." It's not a bad idea considering we don't know all the details yet so hold off condemning MST.

 

[thuway]

The problem I see with this is greed. Corporations will keep game prices high because we as the consumer will have no other alternative. This will, however, kill relations with Gamestop.

 

[Dead Man]

I refuse to support Gamestop and their secondhand game sells. And I have rarely ever buy used games, so for me I don't see what the big deal is. I understand that a lot of gamers only buy cheap games but for the numbers that COD and Halo pull on launch I don't think MST is thinking rationally. If the games can be offered electronically and eventually lower in price like what steam does then that would be great.

Either way they want to protect themselves and developers to some degree, but most importantly they are doing this to "increase profit." It's not a bad idea considering we don't know all the details yet so hold off condemning MST.

Doesn't directly impact me, so I don't care! Woo!

 

[mrklaw]

You know, if all three companies were planning to go all anti-used games, wouldn't the 3DS and Vita have already followed this model? I mean, I can forgive Nintendo since their online plan comes straight from the '90s, but Sony would have definitely have done it with the Vita.
.

Vita already does it if you buy from PSN rather than retail stores. 3DS does it with any eshop purchase

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

I refuse to support Gamestop and their secondhand game sells. And I have rarely ever buy used games, so for me I don't see what the big deal is. I understand that a lot of gamers only buy cheap games but for the numbers that COD and Halo pull on launch I don't think MST is thinking rationally. If the games can be offered electronically and eventually lower in price like what steam does then that would be great.

Either way they want to protect themselves and developers to some degree, but most importantly they are doing this to "increase profit." It's not a bad idea considering we don't know all the details yet so hold off condemning MST.

Unless their competitors jump in as well, they're basically cutting off their nose to spite their face. Remember the PSP Go? Me neither.

 

[Massa]

Unless their competitors jump in as well, they're basically cutting off their nose to spite their face. Remember the PSP Go? Me neither.

Every Vita game will be on PSN day 1, the PSP Go made that possible.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Every Vita game will be on PSN day 1, the PSP Go made that possible.

You can still trade in Vita games, can't you?

 

[Massa]

You can still trade in Vita games, can't you?

Yep. And that is the question for the next few years, will the traditional console makers go digital or will they choose to die with retail.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Yep. And that is the question for the next few years, will the traditional console makers go digital or will they choose to die with retail.

As long as people want to trade in games, retail won't die.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

How is a modified 6670 considered underpowered now?
The 6670 in a dedicated console would/will produce visuals(im guessing you care about this alot) far surpassing anything you have seen on consoles so far.
The simple addition of DX11 support will change the whole landscape of what console devs will be able to produce.....if you have time look up what UDK scenes can be created using DX11 features....now with full teams behind these project optimizing them for the console....i dont know how anyone could say this thing is underpowered.

It's a joke of a card. "Modified" isn't going to mean a significant boost, it's still a 6670, which is a joke for Fall 2013. That would be the smallest leap in graphics we've ever seen from gen to gen. The 6670 has the same power as my almost 3-year old 5770 and it'll be in a Fall 2013 console. That's a disgrace. I don't care how much they modify it. The same goes for Wii U's rumored GPU, but at least with that you get Nintendo's first-party games. I have no horse in this race, I just want a powerful console that's worthy of next-gen because that means much better looking PC games and also I just want a good console, haven't owned one this gen.. If these 6670 rumors are true, PS4 is our last hope.

 

[bgassassin]

It's a joke of a card. "Modified" isn't going to mean a significant boost, it's still a 6670, which is a joke for Fall 2013. That would be the smallest leap in graphics we've ever seen from gen to gen. The 6670 has the same power as my almost 3-year old 5770 and it'll be in a Fall 2013 console. That's a disgrace. I don't care how much they modify it. The same goes for Wii U's rumored GPU, but at least with that you get Nintendo's first-party games. I have no horse in this race, I just want a powerful console that's worthy of next-gen because that means much better looking PC games and also I just want a good console, haven't owned one this gen.. If these 6670 rumors are true, PS4 is our last hope.

You're overreacting based on the part in bold. Wii will always hold that title. And as long as people feel that consoles are holding back PC games, how do you think only one console being "powerful" is going to change that?

 

[Barack Lesnar]

You're overreacting based on the part in bold. Wii will always hold that title. And as long as people feel that consoles are holding back PC games, how do you think only one console being "powerful" is going to change that?

Well Gamecube -> Wii doesn't count, lol. I should've said that outright. All the third parties were on the HD twins and the 360 and PS3 leap from Xbox and PS2 was huge and definitely worthy.

RE: your second point, I dunno. You're probably right because why would third-party devs create their games with a (presumably) powerful PS4 as the baseline if the 720 & Wii U specs are true? It would obv. be smarter business sense to cater development towards two consoles than to one and then just up-port to PS4. I think we're fucked.

 

[DopeyFish]

It's a joke of a card. "Modified" isn't going to mean a significant boost, it's still a 6670, which is a joke for Fall 2013.

it's a joke of a card, but it sure as hell ain't a joke of a chip

if all they were going to do, for example, was shrink the chip down to 28nm and clock it relative to what they've been able to achieve with the 7000 series... you'd be looking at a chip that doesn't require much cooling and has performance on par with a GeForce GTX 460

and that... is before they completely remove the bandwidth constraints that plague PCs

put it in an SoC with RAM on an interposer... and the performance gains would be incredible

 

[onken]

Its around 3x faster than the rumoured 6670.

Am I reading this right the graphics card will be 3x slower than a (by then) 3-year old PC card?

 

[DopeyFish]

Am I reading this right the graphics card will be 3x slower than a (by then) 3-year old PC card?

you can't compare cards and their respective chips directly

PCs are inefficient by nature...

 

[Kai Dracon]

ITT, people demonstrate again that they think consoles are built with off the shelf PC components and that console vs PC performance is a 1:1 map.

 

[Brad Grenz]

ITT, people demonstrate again that they think consoles are built with off the shelf PC components and that console vs PC performance is a 1:1 map.

That's not the point though. No one is really comparing a PC to a console here. If you adapt any PC derived GPU to a console it is going to gain capability by efficiency. So if you take the 6670 in a console environment and compare it to a 6870 in a console environment those "console efficiencies" are present in both cases, cancel each-other out in the comparison. You're just left looking at the 6870 being 3-4 times more powerful. Kinda like how a 6870 in a PC is 3-4 times more powerful than a 6670 in a PC.

This logic is also true when comparing the 6670 to the GPU that is already in the 360. The raw specifications in both cases are 3-4 times better and the 6670 being in a closed box doesn't magically get carried any further since the 360 is already a closed box.

 

[Black_Stride]

It's a joke of a card. "Modified" isn't going to mean a significant boost, it's still a 6670, which is a joke for Fall 2013. That would be the smallest leap in graphics we've ever seen from gen to gen. The 6670 has the same power as my almost 3-year old 5770 and it'll be in a Fall 2013 console. That's a disgrace. I don't care how much they modify it. The same goes for Wii U's rumored GPU, but at least with that you get Nintendo's first-party games. I have no horse in this race, I just want a powerful console that's worthy of next-gen because that means much better looking PC games and also I just want a good console, haven't owned one this gen.. If these 6670 rumors are true, PS4 is our last hope.

Re-read my post....all i was going to type here is basically restating everything that was in my original post.

You are severely underrating the chip(they arent actually taking the graphics card).....you need to sit down and see what can be done with DX11 shaders and high quality textures....all this kicking and screaming will be silenced soon.

P.S Consoles are far far more efficient than PCs of similar specs....so your 5770...is absolute shit compared to a 6670 in a console.

 

[pieatorium]

Re-read my post....all i was going to type here is basically restating everything that was in my original post.

You are severely underrating the chip(they arent actually taking the graphics card).....you need to sit down and see what can be done with DX11 shaders and high quality textures....all this kicking and screaming will be silenced soon.

P.S Consoles are far far more efficient than PCs of similar specs....so your 5770...is absolute shit compared to a 6670 in a console.

People really overstate the console effeciency thing.

 

[Black_Stride]

People really overstate the console effeciency thing.

People really underestimate the console efficiency thing.

 

[mhayze]

8x ? That's ridiculous, given the time gap. They may as well not bother. The Xbox 360 was probably closer to 50x more powerful than the original Xbox in theoretical computational power, and probably more than that in GPU performance.

 

[pieatorium]

People really underestimate the console efficiency thing.

Get back to me when consoles catch up to the resolutions and fps of the early 2000's

 

[bgassassin]

Well Gamecube -> Wii doesn't count, lol. I should've said that outright. All the third parties were on the HD twins and the 360 and PS3 leap from Xbox and PS2 was huge and definitely worthy.

RE: your second point, I dunno. You're probably right because why would third-party devs create their games with a (presumably) powerful PS4 as the baseline if the 720 & Wii U specs are true? It would obv. be smarter business sense to cater development towards two consoles than to one and then just up-port to PS4. I think we're fucked.

Ha. Well you can't do that just for your convenience. You're making an after-the-fact conclusion despite the fact that Xbox and GC were essentially in the same position when that gen ended.

And you got the intent of my question, though I don't think we're screwed at all. I'd rather see MS, Sony, and Nintendo making money as soon as possible. Attempts to help devs keep their costs in control, which in turn would keep game prices from ballooning on us. And more focus on gameplay rather than the opposite of those things happening just because I can zoom in on my character and watch his eyelashes flicker in realtime.

 

[clutch.as.it.gets.]

I agree, if I'm buying either Nintendo's or MS's console next-gen, it will be Nintendo. Only because if they are both of similar power, I would rather have Nintendo first parties instead of MS. Only halo will save the xbox if they're similar.

Well spoken. I dismissed the Wii U also because i wanted to go with the most powerful console, but if this rumor is true and both machines will be on the near same level, i would go with Nintendo. MS first party output is terrible and all those third party games can all be played on the Wii U additional to Nintendo`s excellent in house games.

 

[specialguy]

Jesus, if these rumours of a 6670 powered follow up are true, all of a sudden a Wii U looks more and more appealing, a console i had previously dismissed as Nintendo's Dreamcast level brain fart, simply because of the fact i trust Nintendo Dev teams to deliver better games with very limited hardware, rather than the numerous 3rd party devs that will be on Microsoft's underpowered box of fail.

I'm still waiting for my rumor 720 uses the Gameboy Color chipset. Why hasn't anybody written that up yet?

i thought sure it would arrive today.

I'm afraid the reality is the 720 will be very powerful-if I had to guess the most powerful of all- and you wont be seeing it for a long time,.

 

[Black_Stride]

Get back to me when consoles catch up to the resolutions and fps of the early 2000's

Looks at Wipeout.....calls up pieatorium*
What res was your TV in 2002?

 

[Gravijah]

I'm still waiting for my rumor 720 uses the Gameboy Color chipset. Why hasn't anybody written that up yet?

i thought sure it would arrive today.

I'm afraid the reality is the 720 will be very powerful-if I had to guess the most powerful of all- and you wont be seeing it for a long time,.

no 720 until 2025 huh

oh well

 

[pieatorium]

Looks at Wipeout.....calls up pieatorium*
What res was your TV in 2002?

My PC Monitor was 1600 x 1200

Wipeout HD downscales when too much stuff is going on

http://insidethedigitalfoundry.blogspot.com/2008/09/wipeout-hds-1080p-sleight-of-hand.html

 

[Black_Stride]

My PC Monitor was 1600 x 1200

Wipeout HD downscales when too much stuff is going on

http://insidethedigitalfoundry.blogspot.com/2008/09/wipeout-hds-1080p-sleight-of-hand.html

Pics or it didnt happen.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

Looks at Wipeout.....calls up pieatorium*
What res was your TV in 2002?

but that's two games (ridge racer 7) that are 1920x1080, if next gen polygon counts go up and texture and particles and everything else, there isn't enough "efficiency" voodoo in the world that will make a 6670 class GPU keep up.

 

[teh_pwn]

Re-read my post....all i was going to type here is basically restating everything that was in my original post.

You are severely underrating the chip(they arent actually taking the graphics card).....you need to sit down and see what can be done with DX11 shaders and high quality textures....all this kicking and screaming will be silenced soon.

P.S Consoles are far far more efficient than PCs of similar specs....so your 5770...is absolute shit compared to a 6670 in a console.

Most of that is software inefficiencies because currently most PC games are built with 360 and then DX11 features are sloppily tossed on top. When games are built with DX11 for consoles as the basis, PC also gains efficiency.

I played Oblivion and Fallout 3 on my ancient 2003-4 PC with a 6800 Ultra, 2 GB RAM, and a P4 Northwood. My PC ended up dying, so I bought those games again on 360. In many ways my PC kept up with 360. Not as many effects, but better draw distance, load times, textures.

Console games can be more efficient. Uncharted 2-3 is a good example. But it doesn't magically allow the hardware to run at 1080p with 4xMSAA, Tessellation, 2k textures, etc.

I built a PC a year ago with 2 6950s in crossfire. If these rumors are true, I won't even have to upgrade for console ports. I'll just make this PC my dedicated comfy couch PC and build a new one with Intel Haswell and HD 8000/GTX700 for Witcher3/Civ/Valve/Bethesda/Blizzard.

 

[NBtoaster]

Get back to me when consoles catch up to the resolutions and fps of the early 2000's

Resolution isn't everything.

Consoles ARE far better at using their hardware than pcs, which have to go through more APIs, drivers, and other issues. Carmack spent a lot of time at Quakecon detailing why it was such a big problem for Rage.

 

[pieatorium]

Resolution isn't everything.

Consoles ARE far better at using their hardware than pcs, which have to go through more APIs, drivers, and other issues. Carmack spent a lot of time at Quakecon detailing why it was such a big problem for Rage.

I never said it was, I was saying the effeciency of consoles using their hardware IS overstated and increasing resolution IS a big drain on the power available

 

[CrytothePrinceofPeace]

This being a gaming forum I know it's sort of natural for the focus of the Nextbox to be hardware power but that's the least important aspect for it be successful imo. 95% of the gaming world really don't care about high end graphics. The Wii selling almost 100 million really emphasis that. Microsoft ought to offer new gameplay experiences that can't be found elsewhere. Otherwise I believe the Nextbox will be less successful in terms of sales than the 360. There has to be a 'catch'. Whether you like it or not, the mass market likes 'gimmicky' things. I really wonder if Microsoft has something that would be a mass market attention grabber for its next console. Maybe they will go the U Pad route with improvements?

 

[Game Guru]

Vita already does it if you buy from PSN rather than retail stores. 3DS does it with any eshop purchase

Those are digital downloads, not retail games. The 360, PS3, Wii, and DSi can already do that. I'm talking about preventing retail games from being bought used.