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[snoopeasystreet]

Again this is so wrong it is silly. Alextended has already explained(and is 100% right) that the reason people think Western devs came out of nowhere and took over the gaming industry is because they are ignoring the last 15 years of PC gaming.

Those tropes have been there for years and years.

I come from a pc background and think that western games have become way more homoginized and tropey than they used to be. There was far more diversity in genres and even within genres than there is now. The idea that most western games are shooters with a smarmy protagonist is a pretty new concept. I guess you could say that uncharted is just a mix of doom and monkey island but that's been far too reductive.

 

[Brofist]

Says the guy with a Hot Fuzz avatar. Tropes, the lifting of character archetypes and story structure doesn't necessarily mean it's not worth anyones time, or without it's own originality for that matter.

Hot Fuzz was entertaining though.

 

[Pie and Beans]

Don't know about the rest of ______ since I stopped there.

There appears to be something of a running theme amongst people giving Japanese games an unfair rap. (Yakuza 1 is the worst in the series, 2 & 4 considered to be the best).

 

[Finaika]

Says the guy with a Hot Fuzz avatar.

What's wrong with Hot Fuzz?

 

[Jocchan]

Hot Fuzz was entertaining though.

I think this was his point. Using tropes intentionally doesn't make something inherently bad. I, for one, love Hot Fuzz.

 

[BocoDragon]

I come from a pc background and think that western games have become way more homoginized and tropey than they used to be. There was far more diversity in genres and even within genres than there is now. The idea that most western games are shooters with a smarmy protagonist is a pretty new concept. I guess you could say that uncharted is just a mix of doom and monkey island but that's been far too reductive.

Uncharted is a mixture of Indiana Jones and Indiana Jones... and that's coming from someone who loves that series.

 

[Masakari666]

For me it's a cultural divide thing. I used to like japanese games... when I was a child and early teen. But time has passed (I'm 32 now) and the characterization, behaviour of characters, and general story beats remain the same. I just think most of them are entirely unbelievable / completely japanese in the way everything behaves and interacts in-game.

I also used to like manga and anime, and nowadays I (mostly) don't.

One notable exception was Lost Odyssey. Best JRPG of the generation, even though the gameplay mechanics are pretty standard.

 

[Aaron]

There appears to be something of a running theme amongst people giving Japanese games an unfair rap. (Yakuza 1 is the worst in the series, 2 & 4 considered to be the best).

I don't think it's unfair to play through an entire game and then abandon a series. Honestly though I do want to play 4, but I doubt I'll ever get around to it. Binary Domain is further up the list. I liked the story it presented in the demo at least.

 

[Margalis]

It's hard to think of a western game that is aware of and subverts tropes to the extent that No More Heroes does.

 

[Finaika]

For me it's a cultural divide thing. I used to like japanese games... when I was a child and early teen. But time has passed (I'm 32 now) and the characterization, behaviour of characters, and general story beats remain the same. I just think most of them are entirely unbelievable / completely japanese in the way everything behaves and interacts in-game.

I also used to like manga and anime, and nowadays I (mostly) don't.

Because Japanese makes games primarily for teens, whereas the average age of videogame players in the US is around 35.

 

[dude]

I think this was his point. Using tropes intentionally doesn't make something inherently bad. I, for one, love Hot Fuzz.

Actually, using tropes intentionally is the only way of making something good
You just have to know when and how to use them - Everything in a story is a game of expectations, and these are based on tropes.

It's hard to think of a western game that is aware of and subverts tropes to the extent that No More Heroes does.

I haven't played NMH, but it seems to be mostly a prody of these tropes. Parody is only one way of subverting tropes, and usually not the most interesting one. Again, haven't played NMH.

 

[kadotsu]

It's hard to think of a western game that is aware of and subverts tropes to the extent that No More Heroes does.

http://armorgames.com/play/6561/achievement-unlocked-2

 

[Margalis]

Because Japanese makes games primarily for teens, whereas the average age of videogame players in the US is around 35.

That's only true because the places that report that stat include 50-year-old housewives playing Zynga poker as gamers.

"Hardcore" games in the US are aimed at teens.

 

[Castor Krieg]

Because Japanese makes games primarily for teens, whereas the average age of videogame players in the US is around 35.

To add to that - the reason is once you pass university, say bye-bye to social life, most of the time. Majority of salarymen simply do not have time for anything, let alone gaming. So game developers will target school kids.

I also read, majority of characters in the manga follows the format of: old, ugly = bad guy; young, beautiful = good guy.

 

[Clear]

I suppose I'll get in trouble for saying this, but part of Japanese games image problems stem from the disproportionate coverage of the 360 in the media.

I fully accept that the 360 has done well in NA, but if you look globally its not nearly so cut and dried. The trouble is that its treated like we are living in an XBox dominated world, and by extension the titles that are popular on there are the only ones that count.

This (their absence from the 360's line-up) has overshadowed a lot of Japanese gaming's best achievements this generation.

For instance, what represents Japan better: Lost Odyssey or Valkyria Chronicles?

 

[snoopeasystreet]

Uncharted is a mixture of Indiana Jones and Indiana Jones... and that's coming from someone who loves that series.

well yeah, but from a video game standpoint, it's mechanically a shooter with slight adventure elements and a snarky main character.

 

[Margalis]

http://armorgames.com/play/6561/achievement-unlocked-2

Yeah no.

One is a game that covers a broad range of video game, movie and cultural tropes, one is "hey some achievements are kind of silly" turned into a game that is fun for 2 minutes max based purely on the concept.

I'm not even sure if Achievement Unlocked is even a game so much as a joke told in electronic form. I would also point out that subverting tropes in a major console release is a little more impressive than subverting tropes in a flash game with a $100 budget.

I also read, majority of characters in the manga follows the format of: old, ugly = bad guy; young, beautiful = good guy.

Oh. That's clearly super different from Disney movies, Star Wars, etc, where the hot person is the bad guy and the evil looking old dude is the hero!

 

[Finaika]

To add to that - the reason is once you pass university, say bye-bye to social life, most of the time. Majority of salarymen simply do not have time for anything, let alone gaming. So game developers will target school kids.

Absolutely true.

Japanese adults have no time for videogames.

 

[Pyccko]

For instance, what represents Japan better: Lost Odyssey or Valkyria Chronicles?

Um, I dunno dude, both of those games are well and truly pretty goddamn Japanese.
I don't think there's enough of a gulf between those two to present them as countering examples.

 

[SolidSnakex]

For instance, what represents Japan better: Lost Odyssey or Valkyria Chronicles?

I think that LO received more hype because Sakaguchi's name was attached to it. VC's development staff was significantly more impressive, but they didn't have that type of star power that the gaming media notices.

 

[beril]

well yeah, but from a video game standpoint, it's mechanically a shooter with slight adventure elements and a snarky main character.

gameplay wise it's Gears of Persia

 

[Clear]

Um, I dunno dude, both of those games are well and truly pretty goddamn Japanese.
I don't think there's enough of a gulf between those two to present them as countering examples.

To be specific, I think its fair to say that one of these games is far more staunchly traditional than the other.

 

[Suzzopher]

To be specific, I think its fair to say that one of these games is far more staunchly traditional than the other.

Yes, Lost Odyssey is very much a game stuck in the past with it's mechanics, whilst VC has new mechanics for it's genre(although Future Tactics pre-dates it).

 

[Aaron]

Yes, Lost Odyssey is very much a game stuck in the past with it's mechanics, whilst VC has new mechanics for it's genre(although Future Tactics pre-dates it).

VC is heavily based on combat system of Sakura Taisen 3. Same devs so no surprise.

 

[szaromir]

You can assert so... but I'm sure that such a discussion would reach 100s of pages of dissent if people cared to....

It's like saying Star Wars sucked. You know, maybe, but....

You do have a point. Nonetheless, I think the shift in the industry has more to do with emergence of previously PC-only devs on consoles more than anything else.

 

[RurouniZel]

VC is heavily based on combat system of Sakura Taisen 3. Same devs so no surprise.

Yeah, they basically took the ARMs system of ST3, changed melee to shooting, and added real-time enemy counter-fire into the mix and renamed it the BLiTZ system.

 

[EGM1966]

I suppose I'll get in trouble for saying this, but part of Japanese games image problems stem from the disproportionate coverage of the 360 in the media.

I fully accept that the 360 has done well in NA, but if you look globally its not nearly so cut and dried. The trouble is that its treated like we are living in an XBox dominated world, and by extension the titles that are popular on there are the only ones that count.

This (their absence from the 360's line-up) has overshadowed a lot of Japanese gaming's best achievements this generation.

For instance, what represents Japan better: Lost Odyssey or Valkyria Chronicles?

This is a great point. I'd also note that there is often a feeling of victory or having "beaten" the Japanese latent in many interviews/coverage with Western developers driven surely by the success of both 360 and titles like Gears, CoD, etc.

Of course this ignores that the Wii/DS has sold more in the US, and titles on both have probably sold more as well.

But the media focus is on 360 / Western devs and pusing the idea Japan is stale.

The huge fallacy in all of this is the assumption that you can make sweeping statements based on one region. I mean looks at Halo and FPS sales in Japan? If you were to take a Japanese view you'd be thinking FPS is a niche genre and a bit sucky.

The problem as you note is regional perception and reporting - coupled I beleive with a certain element of victory/crowing by Western devs who see themselves as having leapt ahead due to local success while merrily ignoring that their games sell poorly (relatively) elsewhere in the world and what they think sucks is actually very populat elsewhere in the world.

 

[Maedhros]

lol @ Japanese games defense force.

I mean, can't people really say that japanese games sucks based on their previous experience with them and when they show their argument for it? There are some posts here where people do this and get called.

For example, I think western sandboxes games are completely garbage. I can't even understand why people like them. I get bored just some hours in, drop the game and never touch it again.

That being said, I think that this guy was right (his oppinion, not his attitude, if it's true he said it like that), at least with most of the developers there are stuck on the same concepts from the PS2 era. And when something new shows (for example, The World Ends With You), japanese gamers don't even care.

But that isn't exclusively to Japanese developers.

 

[reptilescorpio]

So basically western and eastern culture has some overlap.
Cool.

Who cares? Lots of great Japanese games out there, lots of great Western games out there.
Stop being closed minded and just enjoy video games.

 

[TheShampion]

By "aware", I mean they understand what they're used for and how they can be used. Everything is a trope, you just have to understand what they're for and how using them can result in the better narrative.

The problem I am seeing is that while there might be a correlation between subverting tropes and cliches and good game design, it is not causation. Some games don't really need to innovate to be fun and interesting. Sometimes, I like games like I like comfort food or comfort movies. Saying something like Ys 3 is bad because it is cliched is like saying Super 8 is bad because it is cliched. That is kind of the point.

It just really strikes me as odd that you consider Japan "unaware" because for so long Japan has been considered "post-modern" before it was "cool." The whole idea behind "kusoge," shit games, are based on the fact that people are aware that they are shit, but still love them anyway. Which maybe is a metaphor for the Japanese game market as a whole: Japanese people don't think video games are very good, but they love them anyway (which is not to say if they are actually good or not, it is just how people might perceive them).

 

[Izayoi]

at least with most of the developers there are stuck on the same concepts from the PS2 era.

But that's completely wrong.

Are people generalizing handheld games as "PS2 era" or something? That's the only reason I can think of for why it's being brought up so frequently as a justification of "all Japanese games are bad".

 

[dude]

The problem I am seeing is that while there might be a correlation between subverting tropes and cliches and good game design, it is not causation. Some games don't really need to innovate to be fun and interesting. Sometimes, I like games like I like comfort food or comfort movies. Saying something like Ys 3 is bad because it is cliched is like saying Super 8 is bad because it is cliched. That is kind of the point.

It just really strikes me as odd that you consider Japan "unaware" because for so long Japan has been considered "post-modern" before it was "cool." The whole idea behind "kusoge," shit games, are based on the fact that people are aware that they are shit, but still love them anyway. Which maybe is a metaphor for the Japanese game market as a whole: Japanese people don't think video games are very good, but they love them anyway (which is not to say if they are actually good or not, it is just how people might perceive them).

It's not just about subverting them, it's also about how to use them and when. To make something good, you want enough of the old to know what the hell is going on and enough new to make you feel like you haven't seen this before. You have to understand what you're doing on some level.

And the second aproach I have a problem with. Saying "games aren't very good but I love them anyway" is the line of thinking that is stopping video games from being used as medium for actual narrative development. I'm not one of those who thinks game should be filled with self importance or argues about the "art" of video games, but I do think taking it at least a little seriously can result in much better games.

 

[Clear]

The huge fallacy in all of this is the assumption that you can make sweeping statements based on one region. I mean looks at Halo and FPS sales in Japan? If you were to take a Japanese view you'd be thinking FPS is a niche genre and a bit sucky.

The problem as you note is regional perception and reporting - coupled I beleive with a certain element of victory/crowing by Western devs who see themselves as having leapt ahead due to local success while merrily ignoring that their games sell poorly (relatively) elsewhere in the world and what they think sucks is actually very populat elsewhere in the world.

Exactly.

Coverage has, for whatever reasons, gotten increasingly insular over the last few years. Its very rare to see anything too left-field from overseas getting championed as being bold or progressive.

The crux of the matter I guess is that there are more games these days spread out across more platforms than there have been for a long, long time. Noone has the time to play everything, so what's being chosen is a small subset typically based on visibility and platform preference.

All of which just demonstrates quite how out-of-whack Fish's blanket statement was. You don't get to dismiss and entire nation's output based on a small, subjective, sampling - its just not reasonable, rational, or defensible.

 

[revolverjgw]

Taking together his quotes, behavior, fashion, taste, name, twitter account, and dev cycle, this has been an interesting Ali-G-type social experiment.

 

[Zekes!]

Has anyone in the gaming press called him out on this yet?

 

[Ghost Dad the Whip]

he loves it

 

[Razlo]

Exactly.

Coverage has, for whatever reasons, gotten increasingly insular over the last few years. Its very rare to see anything too left-field from overseas getting championed as being bold or progressive.

The crux of the matter I guess is that there are more games these days spread out across more platforms than there have been for a long, long time. Noone has the time to play everything, so what's being chosen is a small subset typically based on visibility and platform preference.

All of which just demonstrates quite how out-of-whack Fish's blanket statement was. You don't get to dismiss and entire nation's output based on a small, subjective, sampling - its just not reasonable, rational, or defensible.

This is a totally true and well put summary of the situation.

 

[Truth101]

lol @ Japanese games defense force.

I mean, can't people really say that japanese games sucks based on their previous experience with them and when they show their argument for it? There are some posts here where people do this and get called.

For example, I think western sandboxes games are completely garbage. I can't even understand why people like them. I get bored just some hours in, drop the game and never touch it again.

That being said, I think that this guy was right (his oppinion, not his attitude, if it's true he said it like that), at least with most of the developers there are stuck on the same concepts from the PS2 era. And when something new shows (for example, The World Ends With You), japanese gamers don't even care.

But that isn't exclusively to Japanese developers.

Subarashiki Kono Sekai: It's a Wonderful World - 192,955

Way to talk bullshit. The game sold well in Japan.

 

[zeelman]

^^^^^Those sales aren't that great.

That being said, I think that this guy was right (his oppinion, not his attitude, if it's true he said it like that), at least with most of the developers there are stuck on the same concepts from the PS2 era. And when something new shows (for example, The World Ends With You), japanese gamers don't even care.

But that isn't exclusively to Japanese developers.

Yeah, that's their problem, but nobody wants to acknowledge it. This is why Japan's games continue to sell worse and worse. The PS2 was great and all, but people don't want PS2 games with better graphics.

And the guy clarified his opinion, if people don't want to understand that and keep getting all bent out of shape over it, that's their problem.

 

[7threst]

Has anyone in the gaming press called him out on this yet?

That's what I want to know too. Surely somebody calls him out on his horrible attitude?

 

[Truth101]

^^^^^Those sales aren't that great.



Yeah, that's their problem, but nobody wants to acknowledge it. This is why Japan's games continue to sell worse and worse. The PS2 was great and all, but people don't want PS2 games with better graphics.

And the guy clarified his opinion, if people don't want to understand that and keep getting all bent out of shape over it, that's their problem.

200k for a new IP, while not amazing is far from being "ignored", or "not caring".

Also I never said it did great I said it did well.

 

[zeelman]

200k for a new IP, while not amazing is far from being "ignored", or "not caring".

Also I never said it did great I said it did well.

200K wasn't enough for people to really pay attention to it, especially on an immensely successful handheld like the DS.

Well is a synonym for great.

 

[djtiesto]

^^^^^Those sales aren't that great.



Yeah, that's their problem, but nobody wants to acknowledge it. This is why Japan's games continue to sell worse and worse. The PS2 was great and all, but people don't want PS2 games with better graphics.

And the guy clarified his opinion, if people don't want to understand that and keep getting all bent out of shape over it, that's their problem.

I don't really see all these Japanese games that are "stuck in the PS2 era"...? Many of the best Japanese games on consoles this gen have been totally new modifications of classic genres (such as Valkyria Chronicles or Resonance of Fate). Though also many of the best games have been refinements of what worked before (such as Bayonetta, SF4, KOFXIII, etc.). But how is that any different than with western games? Apart from the setpiece heavy linear scripted shooter game, most of the western games I see are refinements (or rather simplifications) of PC concepts from years back.

 

[Castor Krieg]

Well is a synonym for great.

No, it's not.

http://thesaurus.com/browse/well

 

[Deleted member 17706]

200K wasn't enough for people to really pay attention to it, especially on an immensely successful handheld like the DS.

Well is a synonym for great.

Well is just the adverb form of 'good'. 'Great' is gooder than 'good'!

 

[Truth101]

200K wasn't enough for people to really pay attention to it, especially on an immensely successful handheld like the DS.

Well is a synonym for great.

200k sales is 200k people in Japan interested in a new type of game, a new type of game-play. I wonder how many people on the west were interested in it, or did you even think of that?

Being a synonym does not mean well = great it means they are similar in meaning, well has a different connotation. Also well isn't even a synonym for great.

 

[Curufinwe]

If Fish had said 'Your stories suck' I would have no problem with this. I'm amazed when I play a Japanese game with a story that isn't so simple it basically doesn't exist, or is so terrible I wish it didn't exist. Even when they have an interesting premise and solid characters, they seem unable to string together a decent narrative.

You could take "Japanese" out of that sentence and it would be just as accurate a statement.

 

[mattynunchucks]

200k sales is 200k people in Japan interested in a new type of game, a new type of game-play. I wonder how many people on the west were interested in it, or did you even think of that?

Being a synonym does not mean well = great it means they are similar in meaning, well has a different connotation. Also well isn't even a synonym for great.

But it was a Square-Enix RPG on a handheld that had better market penetration than water at the time it was released, it wasn't exactly an obscure title.

 

[ittoryu]

"there's a 35 page thread about me on neogaf."

From his twitter. I guess he achieved what he really wanted in the first place: some good advertisement and some "look at how cool I am, I am indie".

Meh.

 

[Rahxephon91]

Well he's wrong.

It's 18 pages.