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Fez's dev to japanese developers: "your games just suck"
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"Remember you told me to tell you when you were acting rudely and insensitively? Remember that?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=3rpY-7ndlqI#t=32s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=3rpY-7ndlqI#t=32s
The CoDs and Halos suffer from this just as much as the Final Fantasies, sure - The biggest seller are never an indication of creativity.
My point is that western devs, generally, are much more likely to present me with a new and creative gaming experience than a Japanese one. That is not to say the Japanese can't, haven't or anything like that.
That's probably because of sheer volume. A lot of games never make it out of Japan so most of us can't really speak about the development culture over there since the games that get localized tend to be the safest bets.
No matter how you spin it, it still is a huge blanket statement. Straight up trolling.
This is a terrible example. FFXIII has a lot of flaws but it also has a very novel core system that to my knowledge is fairly unique or at least rare.
At least in terms of "AAA" titles it's pretty hard to see western titles as some sort of fount of innovation.
Except that's total bullshit. You would have to ignore all the licensed games produced in the west, while on the other side you'd have to ignore the doujin game scene, as well as all the innovative stuff Nintendo does alongside their mainline franchises. Everywhere there's creativity, and everywhere there is crap. The problem is most people have a limited exposure to what's actually out there.
Castor Krieg
Banned
Here you go:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_44/266-Doujin-A-Go-Go-Baby
No need to thank me.
By volume/sales? Sure. By game quality? No way.
Exactly.
BudokaiMR2
Member
I don't know. I think part of this is just people looking back with too big of a dosage of nostalgia.
Japanese games were never a bastion of perfect design. There were always good games and bad games. That is the same as it has always been. I have always been fairly un-biased towards either kinds of games, and I haven't been disappointed with many Japanese developers this generation.
Platinum Games came onto the scene and have been delivering quality action games left and right.
FROM Software has really grown into a nice developer. No one can deny that Demon Souls/Dark Souls are examples of really solid game design. Armored Core V seems like a return to the greatness that series deserves as well(still need to get a copy...)
Capcom and other developers have managed to revitalize the half dead fighting game genre this generation as well.
I will admit that Konami and Square Enix have disappointed me this gen.
I wasn't talking about AAA titles, and I won't talk of FF because I'm not the biggest fan of JRPGs to say the least. But for me its clear that most Japanese devs are a lot less conscious of tropes in their storytelling and game building and thus, even when desgining some novel new system, the games don't feel new. Western developers tend, even at their worst, to be more aware. And this is much more important than a new system, because the oerall narrative (not the plot, but the progression of the game in every sense) is the most important thing in any game.
Actually, doujin games are the very essence of the problem I described. Now, I was never an expert but I did play some of them during my days as an Otaku in high school. They tend to be just as uninspired as big releases. They might have a chracter or system that takes advantage of thei independent status, but in general terms they make almost the exact same use of tropes and seem to be blissfully unaware of their use in the game. Doujin games are some of the most driviative I've seen - Playing this almost always completley straight or as a crowd-sanctioned subveretion. Maybe I've missed the truly excellent ones, but overall they seem to suffer of the exacty same problem of mainstream Japanese games - They're just unable to create any freshness in their games.
It's funny you should mention Nintendo. Just yesterday I saw a thread for a new 3DS game - Rolling Western, that illustrats exactly my point. Maybe it's a great game, maybe it's very fun, but from looking at its trailer, I felt like I already played that game a hundred times. I'm not saying Nintendo doesn't innovate (I adore Rhythem Heaven), but even when they do they seem to be too unaware of their tools to make an educated use of them.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Western games are packed to the brim with their own tropes. How many gruff military types could we list from this-gen gaming? (let's not)
BudokaiMR2
Member
Yeah one of the few game stories/narratives that I can think of which touched on interesting new ground this gen is Catherine. Wasn't a big fan of the gameplay but the story was definitely interesting to me.
the way storytelling gets in the way of gameplay is kind of annoying too. or at the very least, when i see a game with a very obvious cinematic flair to it, while the gameplay isn't all that interesting, i tend to think the focus was more on the story and those related aspects (like visuals), leaving less resources or time to develop the more game side of things.
vanquish and bayonetta have very shitty stories, but it doesn't matter because they're both pretty awesome games. this isn't a purely japanese or western thing either. mirror's edge also has a shitty story, but dice shoved it in a corner where no one would see it, since they were focused on the game as a game.
i care less about dressing a decent or good game to make it seem amazing when i could have an actual amazing game with not-so-great presentation. ideally, i'd love both, but if i have to choose, i'll choose the second one every time.
snoopeasystreet
Member
I think the difference is that most of the western tropes have only really been around for this gen/a bit of last. A lot of the tropes in eastern games go back way further than.
Totally, why diss an entire nation like that.
Again I wasn't reffering to the story - Though it's usually present in the story as well. Gaming tropes can include level progression (Like the classic Graaslnds > City > Water > Hell levels progression) or types of weapons (Wooden sword > Steel Sword > Diamond sword) etc. These tropes build the very narrative of the game, which includes much more than just the story. Japanese games are much more likely to these kind of stuff straght.
And yeah, western devs have their own tropes, but they seem to be much more aware of them and usually know how to subvert them better.
And yeah, western devs have their own tropes, but they seem to be much more aware of them and usually know how to subvert them better.
If Fish had said 'Your stories suck' I would have no problem with this. I'm amazed when I play a Japanese game with a story that isn't so simple it basically doesn't exist, or is so terrible I wish it didn't exist. Even when they have an interesting premise and solid characters, they seem unable to string together a decent narrative.
Schrödinger's cat
Banned
trollface_wearing_fez.jpg
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Maybe so.
They definitely have their roots in, say Michael Bay Hollywood blockbusters... or even Joss Whedon 90s TV shows where everyone is oh-so catty and full of sarcastic quips.
Let me just put it this way: to say that western games are displaying some infinite range of possible storylines, while Japanese games are displaying "anime tropes", is to be culture-blind. Western games are definitely confined to very Hollywood/TV ideas about what types of characters + situations are cool. It's just as narrow.... but maybe for a lot of people on this board, fits with their unconscious Sify channel/Bayformers sensibilities.
I'd say that both cultures have their tropes... and their rare titles that break out of those tropes. Most of those who loathe either culture's output probably have a kind of unconscious preference for one set of cultural values in fiction (probably their own), or they don't play every Shadows of the Damned or Catherine along with each Bioshock and Mirrors Edge.
Ah.. fair enough. I gotcha on that.
But we're still following DnD rules in wRPGs and CoD perks/Linearity in FPS, right? That's gonna be tomorrow's "outdated gameplay tropes" if they aren't already.
LiquidSolid
Member
Uh, what? Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, Persona, SMT, Silent Hill, Nier and Catherine? I could go on if you like. Generalising like that is idiotic. Weirdly enough, an entire industry can actually be pretty diverse.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Yakuza series, Binary Domain, Persona series, Catherine, Hotel Dusk, 999: 9 Hours, 9 Persons, 9 Doors, the passive tidbits of story the Demon/Dark Souls games tell and so on.
What a lot of this thread and where the general negative consensus springs from is "Weren't those last few Final Fantasy's shitty?". Yeah, they were. Good thing theres an entire other set of quality Japanese developers out there.
Metallix87
Member
Absolutely this. I have lost a lot of the respect I had for Mr. Fish. This was an outright disgusting move on his part.
TheShampion
Member
I think you are confusing "lack of awareness" with conservatism. Japanese devs are very aware of these tropes, and that is why they are copying them over and over again. I am not sure if that sells more or anything, but I don't really care in a game like Kirby Mass attack or a Ys game.
That being said, games like Ghost Trick, Tomodachi Collection, 9 People 9 Hours 9 Doors (or whatever), or even games like Idol Master or Love Plus sure seem pretty new experiences to me. Granted those last two aren't the best role models of game design per se, but at least they are all are trying to make gameplay that isn't kill a dude every two seconds. Even stuff like Animal Crossing or Boku no Natsuyasumi, while not new by any means, still seem more innovative than your average Western release.
Oh and if you want an impressive Japanese doujin game, try Yume Nikki.
Sure, unless western games actually understand their tropes and how to use them, they'll just be the next stale elements.
By "aware", I mean they understand what they're used for and how they can be used. Everything is a trope, you just have to undestand what they're for and how using them can result in the better narrative. If I wanted to create a suprisingly difficult level, I'd be much more successful if I was aware of the "grassland" trope, because if I made a difficult grassland level, most people would be genuinley surprised based on previous expectations. Most Japanese developers seem to be "unaware" because they just use these tropes as is, without questioning them or making a smart use of them. Most people use tropes without being aware of them, because they get engraved into your brain, and when asked you spit them out as is. Other than that, it's a matter of terminology and I'm willing to accept your "conservatism" term rather than my "unaware" term if it's clearer.
And again, I'm not saying ALL Japanese games suffer from this, Platinum games generally know their stuff, for example. But other, even smaller devs that should be creative and inspiring usually fail at this. Hotel Dusk, for exmaple, was very very stale for this reason.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I totally would not be surprised if we're having similar conversations in 10 years about how stale Western games are compared to like... Chinese or Brazilian games
Food for thought.BudokaiMR2
Member
Again this is so wrong it is silly. Alextended has already explained(and is 100% right) that the reason people think Western devs came out of nowhere and took over the gaming industry is because they are ignoring the last 15 years of PC gaming.
Those tropes have been there for years and years.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Yakuza series is loaded with tropes, even if they're not from anime, and honestly I found the overall stories in those games to be pretty bad. Persona 4 was a long while ago, and Dark Souls is covered under the almost no story heading. Haven't played Catherine, but I heard the story turns to garbage in the final act. I don't play handheld games so I'll take your word for those. It's not exactly a stellar list.
BudokaiMR2
Member
This man knows what he is talking about.
The doujin scene in Japan is really depressing though. 80% are straight up porn games, 10% are quality non-porn Visual novel games, 5% are shmups, and 5% are actually new and interesting ideas.
I hate to use this thread for self-promotion, but the Shindeken guys have some really cool ideas in their games. And they generally make all original content with no anime/manga rip-offs.
I'm Gonna Be God of The Forest is a totally cool tower defense/ ecosystem building game.
BudokaiMR2
Member
It's not the same! Bald space marines used to have hair.
I see a bald spot there. The Bald Space Marine trope is obviously just a natural recession of the hairline. I think I understand now.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Mind blown
I have seen that picture posted multiple times here on GAF. I think I agreed only once or twice, every other time it was used for ridiculous arguments.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Okay, stop. Everything is tropes. It has all been done before. Story structure, character type. Done. Probably five times over. If your judgement of a narrative is how many tropes it ticks, you've unfortunately broken all entertainment for yourself forevermore.
No. Yakuza is a straight up rip of yakuza movies and Asian crime dramas. The characters, the story beats... pretty much everything in the series has been lifted, in the same way other Japanese games steal from anime cliches.
And in the same way other Western games steal from movie cliches. Tropes are everywhere.
Not "the last few", but "all of them". There's nothing substantially different about Japanese games now than 10 years ago. What changed is the shift of PC-exclusive developers (from 90s and early 00s) to multiplatform development and their mainstream recognition. FF7 was inferior to Fallout, the console audience just didn't know about Fallout.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
And GTA steals from crime movies. Not really a great example of trope abuse.
It's not the same! Bald space marines used to have hair.
It looks like an adult Charlie Brown.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Yes yes, and Mass Effect is Star Trek/Wars which are in turn John Carter and Jules Verne novels, and Uncharted is Indiana Jones which is in turn saturday morning live action serials, Skyrim is just Tolkien circa Dungeons and Dragons and so on. You can do this to anything. Singling out japanese games and fiction for tropey-ness belies a bias of personally over-indulging on that area of entertainment and becoming too familiar with all their inspirations.
Everything is a Remix.
Except the first Yakuza game is really bad about this. Every single beat in the story, from Kazuya being a former yak (who will no longer kill) with a rival, to him taking care of a little girl, to the corrupt polician behind it all... all of it is stolen. There's not an original idea in the whole game. It's as bad as Vice City was, which I consider the low point of originality in the GTA series. The others at least had some fresh ideas. Comparing it to something that pulled some vague inspiration from is missing the point.
Though the only way I can enjoy Uncharted is thinking Drake is a sociopath.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I played both of those back in the day. I thought back then, and still do think, that FF is better. But my values are clearly different, that's all. I value stirring emotional dramatics at a cost of interactivity, far more than I value interactivity at the cost of creator-crafted storytelling, so there ya go. I wouldn't use words like "inferior/superior" because I recognize that not everyone shares the same gaming values.
Castor Krieg
Banned
Yes, let's compare apples to oranges again.
Also, I have shitty taste, as I enjoyed both, and rate them equally.
I should be doing hw
Member
Says the guy with a Hot Fuzz avatar. Tropes, the lifting of character archetypes and story structure doesn't necessarily mean it's not worth anyones time, or without it's own originality for that matter.
The thing is, FF7 wasn't good at stirring emotional dramatics. Its story was downright terrible. A nonsensical plot twists every 30 minutes and rather poor writing don't mesh into an enjoyable story. There isn't anything substantially different about FF7 and FF13, yet 13 had much worse reception.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
You can assert so... but I'm sure that such a discussion would reach 100s of pages of dissent if people cared to....
It's like saying Star Wars sucked. You know, maybe, but....
what asian drama had the curry guy you chase around curry houses as he proclaims SPICY as a cry of justice? I fucking need to watch that
If Yakuza had been a parody, that would have been great, but it's done with zero self awareness. I'm not even saying it was a bad game, but as an example of clever Japanese storytelling it is not. But seriously storywise there's nothing original in the first Yakuza. Don't know about the rest of the series since I stopped there.
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