I like how some people are using "is/are better," and "is/are worse" in this discussion as though they have some concrete definition beyond expressing one's own preferences. Hell, even defining them as the preponderance of public opinion is stupid, since doing that would lead you to conclude Bayformers and Twilight are brilliant, high quality pieces of entertainment.
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Fez's dev to japanese developers: "your games just suck"
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Haha look forward to playing 2d platformer with 3d elements, looks at Galaxy 2 loooool be still my beating heart.
The fucking balls on this guy must be so big he carries em around in his FEZ.
Where does he get the nerve? Feedback on his game must be huge for him to be so crass.
The fucking balls on this guy must be so big he carries em around in his FEZ.
Where does he get the nerve? Feedback on his game must be huge for him to be so crass.
Glorious_Paradox
Member
Ok, I might have been a bit excessive in my previous comment, but damn this thing hits way to close to home for me.
Story time:
I was working on a relatively big-budget old-school game around a year ago, and the ONE reason that game never reached its full potential (sitting at ~eighty on Metacritic right now), was purely due to arrogance in the leadership that somehow felt that Japanese classics such as the Marios, Zeldas and Castlevanias of the 16bit era were "outdated" and "irrelevant". This was for a game that was practically 99% trying to do (even without knowing it) the same things those games achieved many years ago, but somehow arrogance, ego and pride kept (some of) us from even recognizing that, and the final game greatly suffered as a result.
Protip: if you're not learning from the Greats, you're wasting time re-inventing the fucking wheel and looking like an idiot in the process. This is ESPECIALLY true when it comes to well-represented genres such as 2D platformers, where the quality bar is set so ridiculously high that not (at the very least) recognizing the classics usually means having absolutely no chance of competing against them either. Even if you do feel like you're capable of doing better than them, learn to keep it to yourself and let the final game (and the people who will play it) be the judge; you can save yourself a lot of embarrassment that way.
Sorry about the slightly off-topic rant GAF, just needed to get that off my chest...
Story time:
I was working on a relatively big-budget old-school game around a year ago, and the ONE reason that game never reached its full potential (sitting at ~eighty on Metacritic right now), was purely due to arrogance in the leadership that somehow felt that Japanese classics such as the Marios, Zeldas and Castlevanias of the 16bit era were "outdated" and "irrelevant". This was for a game that was practically 99% trying to do (even without knowing it) the same things those games achieved many years ago, but somehow arrogance, ego and pride kept (some of) us from even recognizing that, and the final game greatly suffered as a result.
Protip: if you're not learning from the Greats, you're wasting time re-inventing the fucking wheel and looking like an idiot in the process. This is ESPECIALLY true when it comes to well-represented genres such as 2D platformers, where the quality bar is set so ridiculously high that not (at the very least) recognizing the classics usually means having absolutely no chance of competing against them either. Even if you do feel like you're capable of doing better than them, learn to keep it to yourself and let the final game (and the people who will play it) be the judge; you can save yourself a lot of embarrassment that way.
Sorry about the slightly off-topic rant GAF, just needed to get that off my chest...
Killer Yakuza B
Member
I like your style. Let's be buddies.
Rahxephon91
Banned
What do you consider to be "evolving"? What is it that Japan didn't do? How did it lose it's idenity?
I'm concerned only with the quailty of Japan's products with this question. If yours was purely about tech then well I guess...
AkimbO_Arcana
Banned
Oh my, the floodgates of stupidity are wide open in here...
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
You know how I solve these problems?
I play more games. Cures any ailments when it comes to this sort of thing. Broadens the mind and all that other good stuff.
Plenty of good Eastern/Western/Indie games floating about, provided people are willing to get the hell over themselves and give them a look.
If you're not down with that. It's cool. My ignorelist is always open.
I play more games. Cures any ailments when it comes to this sort of thing. Broadens the mind and all that other good stuff.
Plenty of good Eastern/Western/Indie games floating about, provided people are willing to get the hell over themselves and give them a look.
If you're not down with that. It's cool. My ignorelist is always open.
My take on "evolving." From what I've seen and played, many have failed to implement advances and refinements in design choices and overall fluidity since the 1990s. (Slower, albeit clunky menus, controls,etc.)
Xilium
Member
I feel it's just a difference of cultures. I think it is only natural that a western developed game is going to appeal more to a western demographic than a Japanese developed game. Japanese gamers seem to feel the same way about western games that come over to them so it's not like western developers have come up with some universally accepted formula for game design, it's just that the western world is larger and spends more money.
I honestly don't see how Japan could change that. Save for a handful of genres/franchises that do have universal appeal (puzzle platformers for instance), creating more westernized games as people seem to want them to do would require them to essentially develop a game that they themselves would not enjoy. It be like Bethesda creating a JRPG just so they could sell their game to a Japanese audience. I can't imagine that it would be a good game.
Put simply, there is a much larger potential buyer pool for western developed games. This might be a different case if China and South Korea were more into console game as they do share some similar taste, but they're far more interested in MMO's and (specifically in the case of S.K.) Starcraft.
P.S. On the evolving front, I can only speak from an RPG perspective, but the JRPG has become one of the most diverse (and by extension, divisive) genres out there. I feel that Japanese developers do a lot more to try and differentiate their product from other similar games whereas in the west, the general practice seems to be that if someone figures out the "right" way to do something, everyone else just copies it. What Japan does may not always result in a positive outcome, but I feel that they do a whole lot more to try and change the way their games play. A lot of this "lack of evolution" talk seems to be coming purely from an accessibility standpoint, which I personally feel is objective (I don't always find simplification/streamlining to be a good thing).
I honestly don't see how Japan could change that. Save for a handful of genres/franchises that do have universal appeal (puzzle platformers for instance), creating more westernized games as people seem to want them to do would require them to essentially develop a game that they themselves would not enjoy. It be like Bethesda creating a JRPG just so they could sell their game to a Japanese audience. I can't imagine that it would be a good game.
Put simply, there is a much larger potential buyer pool for western developed games. This might be a different case if China and South Korea were more into console game as they do share some similar taste, but they're far more interested in MMO's and (specifically in the case of S.K.) Starcraft.
P.S. On the evolving front, I can only speak from an RPG perspective, but the JRPG has become one of the most diverse (and by extension, divisive) genres out there. I feel that Japanese developers do a lot more to try and differentiate their product from other similar games whereas in the west, the general practice seems to be that if someone figures out the "right" way to do something, everyone else just copies it. What Japan does may not always result in a positive outcome, but I feel that they do a whole lot more to try and change the way their games play. A lot of this "lack of evolution" talk seems to be coming purely from an accessibility standpoint, which I personally feel is objective (I don't always find simplification/streamlining to be a good thing).
on topic of platforms, wasn't the only platformer game, apart from mario, to reach 5 milion sales in the last ten years Little Big Planet?
It's actually a very interesting topic because LBP actually tried to do the platformer quite differently to Mario and it paid off, whereas many other games simply followed the Mario formula and didn't get anywhere. The same can be said about the japanese games that want to follow the western formula. They simply end up being too generic in the space of western games and since it's not an approach japanese developers feel comfortable with, the games tend to be lacking in comparison to western games.
The lacking of technical know-how presents a typically Japanese game with a lacking in depth in the game's mechanics. Expectations on dynamic and intelligent mechanics has dramtically changed with this generation, Japanese devs are just not keeping up, making their games feel flat and stale in comparison.
At one time, Japanese games almost completely monopolized receptivity on consoles in the western world. (Though this may be attributed to an almost non-existent Western presence).
Castor Krieg
Banned
That is very true, of course it is a difference in cultures. The problem is that d-bag could've said "I don't enjoy Japanese games, but I know they appeal to many people in the West. In my opinion, Japanese games lack X Y Z".
I thought about it when I woke up - isn't it just plain racist attitude? There is no master Japanese-developer gene, the same way there isn't Western-developer gene. Japan had a large number of proficient game designers due to its history, how console games developed, etc. Some of Japanese games are terrible, some are great. Exactly as in the West.
Now, such generalization at a venue like GDC - I don't know man, I would've really kicked the guy out.
Exactly. The increasing popularity of Western games is not necessarily due to lower quality of Japanese games, but to increased popularity of Western games.
Agent Unknown
Member
lttp on this. Mind blown at how mouthy and stupid some peoples' kids can be these days. That was straight up junior high lunchroom behavior right there. Slamming the guy and basically all current Japanese games in public then the twitter follow up. "Sorry Japanese guy." What is that? Seriously? Still can't believe this cocky little idiot is for real. But hey, take forever making an indie game with a quirky little character that apes Japanese style pixel art and suddenly you're a one boy tour de force of superiority over an entire country's current game output.
TheShampion
Member
They sure have, but that is kind of my point. Also, I meant Nintendo made titles, not just all NES games.
You are probably right, but if that is his opinion, why go on and on about why Japanese games are bad? Why doesn't he say something to that effect on twitter? While his game may be opposite to what is popular overall in games, what he is making is not opposite to what parts of the western indie scene are into.
It almost feels like people are trying to get to "Orson Scott Card/Shadow Complex" levels of controversy, and I don't think it warrants that at all. People then trying to blanket indie devs, Japanese games, and whatever else in just absurd. I didn't stop reading Roger Ebert because he doesn't like games, and I am not going to not try Fez just because I disagree with his opinion.
BudokaiMR2
Member
The Japanese scene really is not what it used to be but there are still really solid gaming coming out of the country.
They are still the king of fighting games. Is there anything in the West to compete besides MK?
Nintendo constantly blows away anyone who actually pays attention.
The Pixeljunk guys make some of the best arcade games out there.
FROM Software have grown into a damn nice publisher/developer with an impressive range.
Platinum Games makes the best action games in the world.
Kojima has still delivers although his games always have that love it or hate it aspect.
They do struggle to keep up with trends as everyone can see by how blind-sided they were with the growth of social gaming.
But really what do you expect when you put someone like him up on stage? He has no real experience in the industry besides his little niche, has worked for years on a game that still hasn't released but still has a rabid fan base of people who have not even played his game. That will definitely lead certain kinds of people to become arrogant.
They are still the king of fighting games. Is there anything in the West to compete besides MK?
Nintendo constantly blows away anyone who actually pays attention.
The Pixeljunk guys make some of the best arcade games out there.
FROM Software have grown into a damn nice publisher/developer with an impressive range.
Platinum Games makes the best action games in the world.
Kojima has still delivers although his games always have that love it or hate it aspect.
They do struggle to keep up with trends as everyone can see by how blind-sided they were with the growth of social gaming.
But really what do you expect when you put someone like him up on stage? He has no real experience in the industry besides his little niche, has worked for years on a game that still hasn't released but still has a rabid fan base of people who have not even played his game. That will definitely lead certain kinds of people to become arrogant.
Riposte
Member
Please describe what "depth in the game's mechanics" look like. I can't parse just how stupid this post is yet.
While cultural differences play a part in design and development philosophies, I don't think it's unrealistic to think there are collective ideas of what good design choices are and how they constitute "good" game design. If it were truly 100% cultural, I doubt Japanese games would be very popular stateside. We must consider why western games were becoming more popular.
huh? havent they had social games for years before it ever caught on in the west on GREE and stuff?
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
That post to me seemed like it replaced Japanese devs compared to western devs in what was originally modern western devs compared to the PC classics many of their games are dumbed-down vaselined-up janky derivatives of.
Because they used to mostly be found on PC, since the Xbox or so they're finally on consoles too. Many games appear to present fresh, brand new experiences for many console only gamers, who then go on to rave about how stale Japanese games are, completely oblivious to the fact western games are equally so, and that they simply never got to play the originals 10 years ago.
Pretty much all the criticisms people have for Final Fantasy or other big names dropped when someone wants to attack a whole nation's output have been claimed by older PC gamers for many big western games, from COD to Fallout to Elder Scrolls.
The fact is, most games, regardless of origin, are shit, incredibly derivative, or both, and you have to search to find the far more limited good stuff, which are also usually made by smaller developers and not the big mainstream brands kids rave about.
cosmicblizzard
Banned
This is incredibly vague.
Building mechanics in a dynamic way makes for more freedom in gameplay. Half-life2's physics engine, and what it enables, is a fine example of this. In Uncharted, the dynamic animation system just adds a whole extra dimension to the game. What otherwise would be a bland game instead becomes very interesting with such pieces of intelligent tech backing it up. This is where japanese games are lacking imo.
My expectations are, as said, high on how dynamic my gameplay experience should be. Clearly then...a japanese game should leave me, and other that feel like me, wanting.
BudokaiMR2
Member
Well they weren't completely absent but there was never a focus on them like there is now.
I never even noticed GREE at the 2010 TGS for example(if they were even there) but in 2011 their booth dwarfed everything else in the event except maybe Sony.
And yeah there are wealth of games on GREE but even most of the developers will admit their games are complete shit. Most are just press one button over and over.
GREE has been holding seminars and such pretty often trying to explain monetization and design ideas to devs so their games will improve.
I just know it controls better than most of the games from the East. And I've played a lot of games from Japan, just check my gamertag, it's "Jag".
Fish just shot himself in the foot.
I don't know how much the rest of you know about Japanese culture (I'm an expert), but honor and shame are huge parts of it. It's not like it is in America where you can become successful by being an asshole. If you screw someone over in Japan, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is repentance.
What this means is the japanese public, after hearing about this, is not going to want to purchase Fez for either Xbawks or eventual Master Race port, nor will they purchase any of Fishes other games. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but Fish has alienated an entire market with this move.
Fish, publicly apologize for your despicable comments or you can kiss your business goodbye.
I don't know how much the rest of you know about Japanese culture (I'm an expert), but honor and shame are huge parts of it. It's not like it is in America where you can become successful by being an asshole. If you screw someone over in Japan, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is repentance.
What this means is the japanese public, after hearing about this, is not going to want to purchase Fez for either Xbawks or eventual Master Race port, nor will they purchase any of Fishes other games. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but Fish has alienated an entire market with this move.
Fish, publicly apologize for your despicable comments or you can kiss your business goodbye.
LiquidSolid
Member
Yeah I think one of the main reasons why they're having so much trouble.
The other would be that most of the major Japanese developers never really tended to re-use engines or assets unless the games were almost the same (FFX and FFX-2). But due to the costs of this generation, they tried to switch over to a more western development approach and a lot of them flailed around in the process (especially Square Enix).
Capcom's probably the only one that actually did the latter properly but in the process of doing this, they let two of the best designers on the planet leave (when no-one else in the company were even remotely as good) and went insane trying to appeal to the west.
Anyway, the "Japanese games suck" argument stinks of the ignorance and stupidity you'd expect at Youtube or GameFAQs. It's no better than bitching about every western game because "lol dudebros". If this guy wants to be known for that sort of rhetoric then fine, he's just going to make a complete idiot out of himself.
But that's at the surface level. Mechanically speaking, what was so enticing that people began to make western games their preferred choice?
Really, has smiling been banned, oh well see you in the afterlife.
Riposte
Member
You seem to want to talk about aesthetics, not mechanics. The Half-Life 2's physics engine only contributes to depth depending on level design. Level design can be limited by technology, but Japan isn't so far behind that it matters.
How do you go about calling fighting games shallow? "Ryu doesn't pointlessly stretch his hand while standing near a wall."
Also you speak too much in buzz words.
EDIT: I'm really holding back. Fucking Uncharted, man?
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
I don't think so, the whole hype of the fall of Japanese games and raise of western ones is built on that one misconception. Almost every criticism directed at the big names people like to trash could be said of a big western name people worship. I can't think of a good reason for it other than ignorance and jumping on the bandwagon, as knowledgable persons, even if they did have such a preference, would present far different arguments, not issues that apply equally on both the games they hate and the games they love. I don't think the cultural differences you brushed aside, where you suddenly have games by people with the same (often lack of) culture and the fact they also seem fresh due to a lack of previous experience are only surface issues, no. It's not just passing forum talk, it's universally found infesting every appearance of gaming to the public, from websites and magazines to whatever.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
The MP had some smart ideas, but I don't think it was really a AAA game. Which brings us back to the issue at hand. Most publishers aren't crazy enough to give the interesting Japanese games the budgets and advertisement they deserve. So they either play it safe with sequels (Final Fantasy XXX, Dynasty Warriors 25, etc.) or they quietly rush them out to wither and die on the shelves (Valkyria Chronicles). The exceptions to this are amazing (Platinum) but they're rare.
Western games have a similar issue but there's just a lot more of them so it's harder to notice. Western devs are also more comfortable with DD so indies sidestepped the problem.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
Obviously his comment is ridiculous.
Some big Japanese series - Final Fantasy, maybe Metal Gear Solid, have lost their generation-defining status (Not necessarily commenting on their quality, but they don't have the same dominance they did on PS1). Some lesser Japanese series - Tekken, Soul Calibur, etc. have also severely declined in their grasp on the gaming mindshare.
Simultaneously, several Western series have come to prominence - Assassin's Creed, Call of Duty, Uncharted, Halo etc.
However, the idea that most Japanese games are terrible is absurd. Unless you assert that the same is true of Western games too as a result of the sheer volume of games coming out.
In order to assert that Western games suck I feel that it requires a certain level of ignorance, which large swathes of the industry has engaged in. This is ignorance of portable games - where even the likes of Square Enix has done brilliant, creative work (The World Ends With You, Dragon Quest IX), and ignorance of Nintendo systems. We all know about the industry's attitude towards the Wii, and yet it features a number of mechanically superb games, which tend to be ignored (either altogether or as a consideration of whether they are Japanese) in such discussions.
Also, many in the Western games industry are keen to blow the trumpet of Indie games development, which is great. For them this is a great development (I don't disagree). However, they tend to embrace this change and yet ignore the shift of Japanese creativity towards portables. This leads to a distorted perception of the industry.
Don't get me wrong, it is fine not to like Nintendo systems or not to like portables. Preference is no problem at all. But the key is to be aware of your own narrowed taste. If Phil Fish had said that he tends to prefer Western games to Japanese games then there would be very little problem here. It is absurd to imply that Japanese games share development or mechanical or artistic styles - a cursory examination reveals this to be foolish. Just look at Vanquish next to a Tales game. Or Mario next to Dragon Quest. Or Soul Calibur next to Hyperdimension Neptunia (or whatever it is called). Or Resident Evil next to Recettear.
Some big Japanese series - Final Fantasy, maybe Metal Gear Solid, have lost their generation-defining status (Not necessarily commenting on their quality, but they don't have the same dominance they did on PS1). Some lesser Japanese series - Tekken, Soul Calibur, etc. have also severely declined in their grasp on the gaming mindshare.
Simultaneously, several Western series have come to prominence - Assassin's Creed, Call of Duty, Uncharted, Halo etc.
However, the idea that most Japanese games are terrible is absurd. Unless you assert that the same is true of Western games too as a result of the sheer volume of games coming out.
In order to assert that Western games suck I feel that it requires a certain level of ignorance, which large swathes of the industry has engaged in. This is ignorance of portable games - where even the likes of Square Enix has done brilliant, creative work (The World Ends With You, Dragon Quest IX), and ignorance of Nintendo systems. We all know about the industry's attitude towards the Wii, and yet it features a number of mechanically superb games, which tend to be ignored (either altogether or as a consideration of whether they are Japanese) in such discussions.
Also, many in the Western games industry are keen to blow the trumpet of Indie games development, which is great. For them this is a great development (I don't disagree). However, they tend to embrace this change and yet ignore the shift of Japanese creativity towards portables. This leads to a distorted perception of the industry.
Don't get me wrong, it is fine not to like Nintendo systems or not to like portables. Preference is no problem at all. But the key is to be aware of your own narrowed taste. If Phil Fish had said that he tends to prefer Western games to Japanese games then there would be very little problem here. It is absurd to imply that Japanese games share development or mechanical or artistic styles - a cursory examination reveals this to be foolish. Just look at Vanquish next to a Tales game. Or Mario next to Dragon Quest. Or Soul Calibur next to Hyperdimension Neptunia (or whatever it is called). Or Resident Evil next to Recettear.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
When I read some of these "explanations" for "japanese games sucking" I sometimes wonder if I'm really awake, or if I'm actually asleep with my brain filling in random junk for the arguments.
Castor Krieg
Banned
Pretty much this. Western games did not come in force to consoles until Xbox hit, at that time PC gamers were obviously playing Western-developed games for many, many years. Hell, my very first Japanese game was FFVII, which I played on...PC.
This because of lack of knowledge. Doujin games in Japan have as rich history as demo/shareware scene in the West, if not more.
IrishNinja
Member
if you're gonna spot ignorance, why not name names? the same japanese titles keep being named here as some of the best of the gen - since you likely dont play handhelds (couldn't possibly say this nonsense if you did), what of the japanese AAA releases does this even apply to?
Dark Souls definitely feels western, but not in its online approach. the others, you're way off the mark.
this man knows what's up.
Well he won't be having lunch with Shigeru Miyamoto any time soon.
While Japanese developers makes some excellent games, which include some of my favorites - I think their game design is turning more and more predictable. I would think saying "your games sucks" was ment to cause some shock - The article said he detailed some of the design flaws Japanese games has in general - I don't know what he said, but I can damn well guess because most Japanese games tend to stray very little from the tropes their genre dictates. And in that regard, outside of some excellent games, Japanese game tend to suck and only really appeal to some niche audience.
This is clear not only from a game design standpoint, but also from a sales standpoint.
It's clear he doesn't think all Japanese games suck - He was using hyperbole to get a reaction from the crowd and illustrat the problem he think that persists in the Japanese game industry. And there is a problem.
This is clear not only from a game design standpoint, but also from a sales standpoint.
It's clear he doesn't think all Japanese games suck - He was using hyperbole to get a reaction from the crowd and illustrat the problem he think that persists in the Japanese game industry. And there is a problem.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
By such definitions Fez would suck too. It won't need many sales to make money for its devs, but it's not exactly going to compete with COD. Indie faux retro pixel platform game is for a pretty niche audience itself. So I don't think he could have meant that.
Castor Krieg
Banned
So you are saying everything, to say nothing. Outside some excellent games, Japanese games suck. Care to tell me why this is not true for Western-developed games? Because I'm pretty sure for every Uncharted, there are tons of shovelware, also from big publishers.
As for "more and more predictable design" - care to explain the popularity of CoD, Gears of War, Halo, and regular FPS-mania going on in Western gamin nowadays? Or are you going to argue this is somehow innovative design?
Granted, smart level design and well formed scenarios is needed and does _enable_ the physics-engine to lift the game. However, i don't see your point, or the need to discuss level design. Assuming that good level design is a fact in whatever game that is being discussed, interesting mechanics simply lifts the gameplay experience.
Japan is behind enough for it to be noticable.
You seem to be missing the point with what i ment with the dynamic behaviour of Uncharted. The animation system enables pretty much everything that is interesting with those games, mainly the freeform traversal.
As said though, I used Uncharted as an example of how (what would otherwise be) a bland game can become interesting.
Fighting games are becoming better all the time, because they are slowly catching up in this field. I'm using the word "Dynamic" a lot because it's simply the main focus of this gen imo.
I didn't mean that sales dictates quality - I said that it's clear from both a design and sales perspective. I'm pretty sure the Fez-dev-guy was trying to succeed at the former much more than the latter.
I don't know if his game is good at that though.
SolidSnakex
Member
How's that any different than anyone else? Look at all the FPS games chasing CoD with their multiplayer setups and linear set-piece heavy single player modes. Or all the third person shooters that are implementing cover systems.
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