Statistics work, but tell me, what are those statistics you're basing your opinions on? That's exactly my point, statistics are nothing without a representative group, and you can't sort that group from the threads we have, that are almost a "gather point" for those who didn't like the game, as those who like are not well received.
There is no "or else".
DING FUCKIN DING.
That's why it's not a slippery slope argument. That's because the only possible series where this could have happened is Mass Effect.
The irony in all this, and I mentioned this just this past weekend, is that people SHOULD be furious over the "From Ashes" DLC. It's a MANDATORY part of the game sold separately. Where is all the righteous indignation and refusal to buy the game based off that? It's because publishers see us as hypocrites who love to bitch but always buy, and are all too happy to nickel and dime us.
I'll always think of Snooki when I see her.
Gaf is one of the few places I have seen sane discussion from both sides without going deep into "you're an entitled bitch" "you're an idiot" on this issue, which has improved my impression of this place. Probably a good thing too, because with the way the media is treating people who are vocal about disliking the ending, there are a lot of websites I won't be giving any more hits to.First off, $80,000 to a charity is great no matter the context. I don't really agree with the reasoning behind the donations, but I do agree with the participants methods of garnering attention. Instead of destroying and taking, they are creating and giving. That is admirable.
Second, I think this whole situation would work out a lot better if people learned to respect one another a bit more. It is perfectly okay to hold and opinion. That is your right as a human. It isn't okay to disrespect others who have different opinions.
After initially completing the game, I actually liked the ending. I felt although it was bleak at some points, it ultimately offered hope. I posted this on some forums and instantly had insults thrown at me. Apparently, only idiots could like that ending, and since I liked it I was and idiot.
A while later, once my emotions ran down, the plot holes and broken lore I initially scanned over became more apparent. Since then, I have changed my opinion and I don't care for the ending as much. That does not give me the right to call people who disagree with me idiots. If I wanted to change their opinion I could have a civil conversation about the ending and inform them of why I don't like the game. I cannot do any more than that.
On top of this, I don't think we should personally disrespect the people who made the game. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say that they did not purposefully anger a very large portion of their fans. Their are other ways to bring their attention to your opinion than making personal attacks over a disagreement.
Then again, this is the internet. I may just be expecting too much.
There was a HUGE furor over From Ashes in the weeks leading up to release, especially since people had found indications months earlier that it had been planned alongside the main game for some time. Journalists called people who were upset, "entitled babies," and said that BioWare had a right to make them stacks, because games are services, yo.
Statistics work, but tell me, what are those statistics you're basing your opinions on? That's exactly my point, statistics are nothing without a representative group, and you can't sort that group from the threads we have, that are almost a "gather point" for those who didn't like the game, as those who like are not well received.
Wait, do people think I work for IGN?
... kinda neat, I guess.
I'll pretend Destructoid.
Which is why I find this entire outcry so hilarious. I don't like the ending of the third game, but it's decent by game story standards and not out of line with the quality of the rest of the games stories. (except for the majority of 3- which was far and away the best the story of the series has been, making this protest seem even more wrongheaded in its focus.)
The first games' story structure is terrible and its ending begins with, need I remind anyone, a gigantic info dump from two static conversations. Never mind trying to leverage the unique strengths of the medium as a storytelling asset, at least bring your presentation up to the shitty Hollywood blockbuster level much of gaming seems to childishly aspire to and remember you're in a visual medium. Fans who love such a poorly told narrative but find the thirds ending repulsive seem delusional to me.
Most importantly, I think all this fuss detracts from the narrative we should be saying as gamers anyway. The bulk of the discussion about a game should not be about its story, (until the medium matures substantially at least) barring the rare exception, and if you insist on discussing the weakest element of the medium, you should at least discuss it in the context of its entirety rather than focusing on what is literally a few minutes of video. Such a protest communicates misguided priorities. Finally, even though I'm no big fan of the ending myself, the idea of paying a creator to undo their creation and pander (I realize the irony given the company in question) is such a terrible principle that I could not support it even if I thoroughly despised the ending.
(I will note that I have no problems with criticism in general; I just feel the ME3 discussion is way off course, in its priorities and consideration of the rest of the series.)
You really had to have been here to feel the kick in the balls. 5 years of world and character building, most of it relying on player choice. One of the most immersive game universes ever, and the way they end it is such a massive bitch slap to its fans. That's why this is happening now.
GAF and the BSN are both acceptable places to poll, they are not limited to those of just one opinion, and from my observations it's mostly negative. Is the charity or retakeme3 an acceptable place to poll? Hell no.
Alright, I'll be Giantbomb then.
Wait, do people think I work for IGN?
... kinda neat, I guess.
I'll pretend Destructoid.
BSN is a horrible place to try to find any sort of non-crazy opinion.
Why even compare this to Star Wars?Star Wars says hello.
It's a bitch slap for sure, but going back and changing an ending is ludicrous. Simply don't buy any more of their products or they should fire their writers, but changing it won't really change anything. They shouldn't let their fans dictate them like this. They should just learn from it and move on.
GAF and the BSN are both acceptable places to poll, they are not limited to those of just one opinion, and from my observations it's mostly negative. Is the charity or retakeme3 an acceptable place to poll? Hell no.
I'm only 10 hours Into me3 but after all this, I no longer care how the game ends... I must want bioware to ignore all this annoying noise and carry on with their lives. They made a game, ended it how they saw it ending, and I hope they stick to their guns and don't pander to the noise of some loud Internet kids. What a horrible precedent to set ugh, can you imagine creatives changing their vision caused of FORUMS? I fear the future, imagine LOST ending by Online committee? Please nip this in the bid (tho they'll likely see demand as $$$ and capitaliz on an exPanded universe dlc now)
They might be a little over the top, but from a polling standpoint it's valid, people from both sides are allowed to go there and post.
Statistics work, but tell me, what are those statistics you're basing your opinions on? That's exactly my point, statistics are nothing without a representative group, and you can't sort that group from the threads we have, that are almost a "gather point" for those who didn't like the game, as those who like are not well received.
That brings us back to make first point: no matter what I say to you, no matter how many previous evidences we have (wii is a sucess? 3DS flopped in the beginning? Lots of our most loved games sell poorly? developers changing games in the direction we don't want? franchises we shit on, like CoD, Just Dance, Wii Shovelware..) are actually what are sustaining the industry? I can keep going on and on and, no matter what, you'll still think lots of rambling internet fans are the majority of the consumers. Well, I rest my case, but still disagree with lots of what you're defending.
it happened in a game called shining force 3.
why does this game get singled out from tons of games with crappy endings? or why does the ending get singled out for all of the faults the game has?
They might be a little over the top, but from a polling standpoint it's valid, people from both sides are allowed to go there and post.
You'll need to set them lower.
No, lower.
...Keep going.
Gaf is one of the few places I have seen sane discussion from both sides without going deep into "you're an entitled bitch" "you're an idiot" on this issue, which has improved my impression of this place. Probably a good thing too, because with the way the media is treating people who are vocal about disliking the ending, there are a lot of websites I won't be giving any more hits to.
Why even compare this to Star Wars?
Allowed to, sure, but from a polling standpoint it's an absolutely horrible place to solely pull from. You need a random sampling of all fans of all types. Those that take the time both to register and then to converse at the developer's forum is only one type of customer.
Welcome, why don't you come get a hug in the spoiler (Group Support) thread.I had tempered expectations going in, and the disappointment didn't immediately hit me. I felt totally underwhelmed and confused initially. I just figured I got a crappy ending. It was only after I saw the other endings that I felt the full force of disappointment.
Fans who paid $60 (and over three games, $200+) declaring your product great but possessing an unimaginably terrible, serious flaw? Just whiners.
Reviewers who receive perks from your parent company declaring your product flawless? Objective, unbiased evaluators.
Because the person I quoted talked about shitting on fans/franchise etc.
I'd say Star Wars had a good thing going up until the 90's. The original trilogy, the books, the games, the lore, was all fantastic and a lot of people were heavily involved.
The new trilogy not only introduced a series of gaping plot holes, but dumbed down and stained the franchise.
Is that not a bit similar to the way people feel about the ending of ME3?
There's a huge excluded middle there. There are players who liked the ending, and who also paid '$200+' for it and don't support this endeavor. There are people like me, who thought the ending was bad (but not nearly as bad as that stupid google document makes it out to be) but who don't support this endeavor. Don't think for a moment that when you speak you speak for the entire fanbase.
It's fine to complain about an ending, and even to write angry letters (or tweets, I guess) to Bioware expecting a different ending. It's up to Bioware whether they listen or not. There are, however, people in this very thread who make the claim that by being a consumer you have the right to demand changes. That's where claims of entitlement come from. No one gave these people that right, they're claiming it for themselves.
Your comparing two different things, popular opinion and commercial success are not that same.
Psssh, 60k votes are nothing guys.
silent majority is always right, anytime there's a bunch of people complaining about something on the internet, the rest of the universe has the complete opposite opinion and chooses to be silent.
Silent Majority Opinion #1: Godfather 3 is the best Godfather.
The customer is ALWAYS right.
*awaits backlash to this post*
Godchild 3
True, but we cant extrapolate results from those who don't make their opinion heard.
Yet it still shows how much different the "concensual" forum idea can be from the real thing. Besides, I hate when I do this, got lost in an argument that wasn't my main point: no matter how much people you get to your "cause"(lack of a better word), asking the developer to do such a drastic change based only on personal preferences is something I really can't comprehend.
silent majority is always right, anytime there's a bunch of people complaining about something on the internet, the rest of the universe has the complete opposite opinion and chooses to be silent.
There's a huge excluded middle there. There are players who liked the ending, and who also paid '$200+' for it and don't support this endeavor. There are people like me, who thought the ending was bad (but not nearly as bad as that stupid google document makes it out to be) but who don't support this endeavor. Don't think for a moment that when you speak you speak for the entire fanbase.
It's fine to complain about an ending, and even to write angry letters (or tweets, I guess) to Bioware expecting a different ending. It's up to Bioware whether they listen or not. There are, however, people in this very thread who make the claim that by being a consumer you have the right to demand changes. That's where claims of entitlement come from. No one gave these people that right, they're claiming it for themselves.
But you can't call those results conclusive. If any political polling place took their results solely from, say a politician's Facebook page they'd be goddamned nuts. They'd be laughed away. There are an astounding amount of fans who do not care one bit to go onto forums and talk about their games there. They just play the stuff. There are fans who don't mind going onto some forums, but might stay the hell away from some place like BSN purposefully. There are people that don't even know about that place, too.
Well, you ignored me when debating your main point and now we are here. Like I said GAF speculating if the Wii will be a success has nothing to do with polling.
Falllout's ending was pathetic, even for Bethesda, and demanded revision.
I'm not sure BioWare's horrible conclusion is wrong on the same level. Especially since the ending is preceded by a perfectly acceptable end point.
Yet it still shows how different the forum concensus can be from the real thing. Also, don't take this forum's polls too seriously: you don't make an elections survey in a protest where everyone is criticizing Obama, you might get your results altered.
True, using a politicians Facebook page would be horrible, but GAF isn't a Mass Effect 3 haters page. Like I said polling those who donated or using the Retakeme3 facebook page would be inaccurate.
Of course, but neither GAF nor the BSN are places that garner just one opinion, and exclude the others.
But you can't call those results conclusive. If any political polling place took their results solely from, say a politician's Facebook page they'd be goddamned nuts. They'd be laughed away. There are an astounding amount of fans who do not care one bit to go onto forums and talk about their games there. They just play the stuff. There are fans who don't mind going onto some forums, but might stay the hell away from some place like BSN purposefully. There are people that don't even know about that place, too.