doesn't hurt when viper can go through almost anything you can do.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
NorCal Regionals 10 | Fighting game tournament | March 24-25
- Thread starter USD
- Start date
crimsonspider89
Banned
You don't have to block with Viper. You got that FA, and EX moves and OPTIC BLAST!
Real talk.
Real talk.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I'd like someone to go over the top 8's of both games for the past year and see which if any has more consistency in the results. I doubt there'd be much difference.
Can't see the pic at work, but I do see it's labeled i know that feel.
You on tonight? I will be for some KoF or SFxT if you want.
We'll do a couple of KoF sets tonight if you're up for it. Had a couple of local KoF players at my place last weekend and I was... how can I put it...
Ass? Scrubby?
God, this game is so awesome... I feel like I'm not worthy for it! D:
Killa Sasa
Member
I'll bite.
It's a team game. EVERYTHING including team makeup, damage decisions and identifying/taking out the problem should be a strategic decision. If you have to snap, that means the opponent is doing something right by making you use your resources.
If you don't have good welcome mixups to kill the problem upon snap, that is 100% your fault. They can't use assists for a while, they can't DHC immediately, and they have to take the mixup -- its completely advantageous to the snapper and gives them a chance to mount some of the ridiculous pressure in the game. Burn down the forest if you have to f its such a big problem. Again, I just don't see why people fault the game for messing up their own situation -- in this case, not capitalizing on an assistless character you get a free mixup on.
As for XF3, it needs to be toned again, but you can't look at it in a vacuum. It occurs when you should be at an advantage over your opponent anyway. It can be hard to deal with, but can be managed as long as it's not on a character specifically designed to be amazing with it -- who you should've snapped in in the first place. The biggest thing I can say in defense of it too is that you have your own XF too. XF management is one of the hardest things to do well consistently in this game, and can change the direction of a match. Really apt name. There's been many better mechanics (shoutouts to TvC's Baroque), but many worse ones too.
That said, people don't have to like the game. It's definitely not everyone's cup of tea, and the barrier to entry starting off can be hard just because you can get rolled so quickly by someone who knows what they're doing (that's what I like about it most tbh, don't have to respect dummies nearly as much in Marvel as you do most other fighters). Also, mechanics like XF and TAC can be off-putting. It's just a different mindset and some things you have to accept about the game to play it I suppose. I'd say it's pretty straightforward in that it's Fate of Two Bullshits and honest about that, but it's not as surgical as KOF or ST -- on the surface anyway.
I don't mind people calling the game ass as long as they have actual justifiable reasons for it and are not just saying things that have pretty huge holes.
Not gonna say anything about SFxT except that I tried it for a while and I don't like it. Just not for me.
OT: KOF is the most honest game, really. THAT should be what everyone's playing if they're looking for a really distilled, stylish, and hype fighter. I'd learn if I had more time T_T Skill is really proportionate to work in that game imo.
Isn´t Seth the epitome of what was wrong with SF4? The last couple of years were do you have a vortex ? No. Switch to Seth Viper or Akuma.
And I still saw nothing wrong with high level SF x T because I didn't see high level SF x T last night.
RellyRell28
Banned
There was that one time at WB when Marlinpie was going against Justin where he had on point D but other then that no D at all.
I played the arcade version training mode like a fiend, but I'm still dildos at it, because I never got any time to put combos into practice against a real person.
Should be interesting. Battle of the scrubs. Yo uuuuugh.
How is that random? If you call out an assist it will get hit by something that collides with it hittable box. It's not as though there is a 1 in 6 chance of your assist being caught in a combo in addition to your point character thus making the mechanic actually random. You know X-factor gives x character x% damage boost so how is that random?
I disagree. I think people are using / wasting meter on silly tag combos instead of using it for their supers (any damage done creates no healable health) or team supers (it takes away ALL of the healable health of the person hit and any further damage done by the super creates no healable health).
People don't do this, though, so people heal.
If you nerf the health regen, it makes those traits for the supers / team combos useless and actually REDUCES the complexity of the game and the decisions needed.
That doesn't mean I think the game doesn't have issues, btw, it's just that how the players are playing is a huge part of the issue right now.
transience
Member
I agree that there is no 'flow' to watching high-level SFxT. It just feels like people are throwing out moves, something hits and you confirm into a 5-7 second combo for 40% damage. Since everything links into everything, the game feels more like a combofest than anything involving spacing or footsies. Moves are so safe when compared to SF4 so there isn't that sense of tension that SF4 or even MVC3 has.
For example, when two guys are low on life in SF4, or if a comeback is happening, it's genuinely exciting. in SFxT there's no real chance of that happening because either a.) it's so hard to play safe and b.) the timer will run out, or even c.) you have no choice but to rush down when behind because you're going to get timed out. It seems like they would have to fundamentally change the game in order to make it genuinely exciting.
I say this after the game has been out 2-3 weeks, so a lot can change. Still, I can remember those old Daigo/Momochi fights from 2008 and how good they felt to watch. Nothing I have seen in SFxT feels that good. I'm really curious to see what people bring at Evo because what I saw at NCR was very boring.
For example, when two guys are low on life in SF4, or if a comeback is happening, it's genuinely exciting. in SFxT there's no real chance of that happening because either a.) it's so hard to play safe and b.) the timer will run out, or even c.) you have no choice but to rush down when behind because you're going to get timed out. It seems like they would have to fundamentally change the game in order to make it genuinely exciting.
I say this after the game has been out 2-3 weeks, so a lot can change. Still, I can remember those old Daigo/Momochi fights from 2008 and how good they felt to watch. Nothing I have seen in SFxT feels that good. I'm really curious to see what people bring at Evo because what I saw at NCR was very boring.
i kinda wish you had to kill both characters just so we can see people really learn characters and not rely on tag combos all the time.
transience
Member
Infiltration already did that. And he didn't even seem all that great! Everyone else just got destroyed.
I want Haneyama to come here and blow everyone up. The things I've seen on YF24's channel have been pretty amazing.
And he didn't even seem all that great! Everyone else just got destroyed.I want Haneyama to come here and blow everyone up. The things I've seen on YF24's channel have been pretty amazing.
Infiltration already did that.
I want Haneyama to come here and blow everyone up. The things I've seen on YF24's channel have been pretty amazing.
That's terrible news if the way the game is meant to be played is Infiltration style. I'll be bowing out to just stick with Mahvel and KoF13 instead.
I feel like the problem with SFxT well my problem with it is the pacing. Subtle things like the walk speeds and stage sizes has a large impact on the feel of the game. The game right now feels like SF4 except I have to kill one of 2 characters and people can roll out of Oki setups thus you end up with what we are seeing with the game right now. I feel like it should pace more akin to Kof or CvS2. This is just what I think though.
I agree with this. I also feel for what game is (versus game) that the combo system is extremely limited. I enjoy the TvC/CvS2/MvC type of combos in a versus game.
scytheavatar
Member
Also they need to make raw tags a lot more punishable. A punished raw tag is weaksauce compared to the possibly of losing a round if you don't raw tag away a near dead character. Such obvious design flaws make me wonder whether gems have distracted Ono's teams from the real issues of this game.
transience
Member
I just think the game is too offensive. There's very little in terms of anti-air and it's pretty damn hard to zone. Tagging is a nightmare if you're in a defensive position. This leads to being caught in the corner -- something that happens quite easily given how long these juggle combos are -- and at that point you're pretty much screwed. The only thing you have going for you is the roll and everyone expects it. I guess the threat of the roll keeps you out of an oki situation, but I always thought those were the most interesting part of SF4.
I guess I make it sound like I want SF4 with a tag system and more characters. Maybe I do, I don't know, but what we have isn't doing it for me yet. I'm willing to let the top players come up with something to make it seem more interesting though.
I guess I make it sound like I want SF4 with a tag system and more characters. Maybe I do, I don't know, but what we have isn't doing it for me yet. I'm willing to let the top players come up with something to make it seem more interesting though.
It also limits the combos you can with the ridiculous amount of scaling. I still don't know the optimal combos for me team yet at this point.
Shouta
Member
That's terrible news if the way the game is meant to be played is Infiltration style. I'll be bowing out to just stick with Mahvel and KoF13 instead.
Infiltration's style will get blown up hard once folks start playing more like the game intended. A single poke, particularly from Tekken characters, leads to huge damage so the game actually punishes overly defensive play to a certain degree. I barely saw anyone doing big damage combos instead opting for repeated ones that require specific setups or really low damage switch cancel combos. Chris G barely did any good damage combos with Xiaoyu and Hwoarang. Had he done so, it probably would've been a closer match with Infiltration.
Seems like the punishment was pretty high considering how players lost the round rather raw tag. eg. FChamp Lamerboi Jimmy Tran etc.
40% - 60 % isn't enough?
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
The player is the one who pressed the assist button. It's not like the opponent forced him. When you call an assist it is your job to protect it.
Unless your finger slipped or something happy birthdays are always a result of shitty and/or predictable assist calls.
Yeah I agree, but the current state of the game does something for combos and footsies. If you saw most Rufus users were just doing dive kick into short short while crouching or stand jabs into a confirm, and if it confirmed it went into abc launch. Now the damage of incoming character won't be a lot, but you get free damage confirmed, AND you're wasting more time on the clock.
In general though I do see a need for some confirms into the meatier damage.
scytheavatar
Member
It isn't enough when the alternative is losing the round. You need to make it possible to hit the point character out of his pose to force people to raw tag only when they can create the opportunity.
But you can. The pose has zero i frames .
He won his Top 32 match against Crackfiend, then lost to ShadyK 2-0, and then lost to Clakey D 2-0. He got 17th.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
Well, I don't think there was a time out problem with initial SF4 tournaments that I remember. I don't remember vortex's,, alot of OS's and stuff like that at first though. I could be wrong on that though.
The thing about Hugo. I see that as a specific balance thing. My thought in general is that there should be no strong comeback mechanic.
Now I am curious. I need to find early SF4 arcade tourny footage.
Which character is to blame? His Duke or his Gief?
Edit: @ ThatCrazyGuy
I know Viper was still ass in early days of SF4, but Sagats and Ryu's were doing a fair amount of what they do now in the game. Chuck plasma, play footsies, anti air, etc. I definitely recall in early days when people were getting super hype over Abel and his fresh combos, and that character didn't exactly evolve at all but always remained scary due to his great mix up game.
Slamtastic
Member
It's not a versus game, hence why it is called Street Fighter Cross Tekken.
Capcom has said as much from the start.
Also, in what dimension does CvS2 have MvC/TvC type combos?
And how is the combo system limited, unless you're talking about the SF side and the cross Rush, which is one of my problems with the game.
They should have given the SF side target combos comparable to the Tekken side instead of implementing a Magic Series. Not only would it be more interesting, you would HAVE to spend a meter in order to tag out of a combo, which would slightly reduce the amount of tags and the time problem.
The most basic 1 or no meter combos can do 400-600 damage in this game. Low health characters get bodied in three seconds in this game. More damage from a better comeback factor would make characters like Sim pointless. Plus, no one used pandora mode correctly right now anyway.
I disagree entirely. If SFxT was a game where you had to kill all members of the team to win, then making raw tags more punishable would make sense. Since killing one character ends the round, it needs to be this way.
think about it like this. Marvel is an elimination-style tag fighter. If you raw tag unsafely, you will probably lose that character. That takes away maybe 1/3 to 1/4 of your resources, depending on where the life bars are at the moment. your opponent still has to do 2/3 of the work to win. In SFxT, when you raw tag in a character you lose 40-50%, and since losing one character loses the match, your opponent has to do half the work to win.
It's comparable.
There's a reason that only a scene in the world really cares about Marvel. And it's also historically one of the weakest (even though they stepped their game up in the last couple of year).
The reality would be if this game does go 2v2, then the best use of meter and means of comeback will be cross rush, and it will be hard as hell for Sim to deal with it if one character is picking an air option to get in on him, and the other is staying on the ground. Granted he'll still have teleports, but if one person stays full screen and holds it, then sends in the other player to catch teh teleport he does, then it's free damage.
Plus, grappler characters are especially fearsome in this mode since they can command grab during it, and while it eats up time and does make the damage potential lessened, it's still a free 200 points of damage if done right.
America has almost always been one of the stronger scenes. The only places that are better than the US have been Japan and maybe Korea.
Cross rush has plenty of useless 1v1. The big one being it bring a character back from the brink of death. It also lets you do a lot of tricky setups.
Haunted
Member
I love just regularly going to Liquipedia and checking up on the last couple major tournaments.
Is there anything similar for the fighting game scene, like if I want to check the NCR and MLG results from this weekend?
Is there anything similar for the fighting game scene, like if I want to check the NCR and MLG results from this weekend?
Shoryuken.com
Haunted
Member
China destroys pretty much everyone in KOF, Singapore is really good and Europe in SF IV is the only place that wasn't free every time Daigo came (and i'm not even talking about when he was at his weakest form halfway through super).
No place is "free" when Daigo comes for SFIV. Singapore scene is good. No comment about anything KoF.
Edit: isn't Korea the place to beat in KoF though?
Can't prove that until EVO, pal.
México vs. China vs. Korea vs. US on top 8.
Juicebox.Abel & Steve on the commentators box.
My panties just got wet thinking about it.
Alpha Counter. While Sim is hitting someone with an Alpha-Counter, he's invincible (I'm assuming it's a similar state to when you're throwing someone). Costs meter but will burn up a lot of clock. Discovered this at random a couple weeks ago.
Unsure if it applies to other characters, guessing it does.
Tekken.
If Bala and Romance are on Mexico, it's over.
I would take the Chinese in 98, Mexicans in 2k2. By that logic, I take the Mexicans in XIII, since that's closer to 2k2 then 98.