shinobi602
Member
What's your point?
Apparently two wrongs make a right.
I learned something new today.
What's your point?
I might be off here, but you seem to have some sort of beef with my support for the existence of Israel.
For example, what if there were an outbreak of antisemitism in our country of residence and we had nowhere else to go, what do we do then? Stay here and wait for our death, or escape to a country full of our own kinsmen that won't shut the door in our faces (like America did during the Holocaust)? At least with Israel, we have something to fall back on, and I don't think that should be taken from us.
My point is that neither side is in the right here. Specifically I was showing you that your argument that Hizbollah hides behind civilians is no better than the one I provided.What's your point?
Take the Kurds, for example. They're a large minority in 3 or 4 countries, they have a right to exist as a people, but an actual Kurdistan would be a clusterfuck for the region. You could still say Kurdistan as a right to exist as a country if it ever came to be, but I don't think it's a necessity. The world over, you have thousands of different ethnic/religious minorities and technically, they all have a right to exist, but I don't think you need to make a country for every single one of them.
Israel is there already so it's a matter of acknowledging a reality, but even if you argue Israel has a right to exist, I don't think it absolutely needs to exist. The world would probably be better off without it.
The creation of the United States involved the biggest genocide in history which resulted in the extinction of Native American population and culture. So arguably the world would be better off without it.
The creation of the United States involved the biggest genocide in history which resulted in the extinction of Native American population and culture. So arguably the world would be better off without it.
What's your point?
Only with Israel there's this obsession with how it came to be. It exists and it's here to stay. You can criticize the policies but going over how Israel was founded again and again is useless and quite frankly, singles Israel out of any other nation in the world.
Meh.
For those who don't know, the chances of an Israeli strike on Iran are lower after Netanyahu added the centrist Kadima party to his coalition yesterday.
Mofaz, the leader of Kadima, is firmly against an attack on Iran and is for reaching an agreement with the Palestinians and even negotiating with Hamas.
I take it as proof that Netanyahu's threats are merely posturing to make the West take a harder stance towards Iran. When Israel wants to bomb someone it doesn't sit around and throw threats for five years, it just does it.
What's your point?
*snip*
Yes. And?
This is a topic about Israel so the discussion is about Israel. If you want to make a topic about how America shouldn't exist, be my guest. It would be fun.
They're talking about scorched earth here "decades to rebuild." That sounds to me like if they'd just bomb everything, military target or not.I like how everyone is "BAD ISAREL HOW DARE YOU RETALIATE IF HEZBOLLAH ATTACKS YOU", but no one gives a shit that Hezbollah uses civilians to hide behind
This a topic about Israel warning Hizbullah not to get involved in a potential war with Iran (assuming that a single anonymous source is a good indication of Israel's plans).
And yet here we are discussing (again) if Israel should or shouldn't exist.
It's the same in every Israel thread. And you can bet it wouldn't have happened in a thread about the US war in Afghanistan.
They're talking about scorched earth here "decades to rebuild." That sounds to me like if they'd just bomb everything, military target or not.
I would start the discussion myself, but my thread creating priviledges have been revoked years ago.
Just frame/title it the right way and America's very existence could be discussed.
I would start the discussion myself, but my thread creating priviledges have been revoked years ago.
I was thinking of starting a thread about the genetic relationship between Palestinians and Israelis but I didn't really know where to go with it. It's kind of interesting but I don't know how relevant to anything it is. Seems to be the case that the Palestinians are a mix of ethnic Jews who converted to Christianity/Islam with neighboring populations of Arabs. The people we call Jews today are the ones who fled to Europe and mingled with their respective native European populations.
There is undeniably a cultural divide, but the two probably share more than most people realize.
I was thinking of starting a thread about the genetic relationship between Palestinians and Israelis but I didn't really know where to go with it. It's kind of interesting but I don't know how relevant to anything it is. Seems to be the case that the Palestinians are a mix of ethnic Jews who converted to Christianity/Islam with neighboring populations of Arabs. The people we call Jews today are the ones who fled to Europe and mingled with their respective native European populations.
There is undeniably a cultural divide, but the two probably share more than most people realize.
Half of Israel's Jewish population came from Arab countries. The oldest Jewish diasporas are the ones in Babylon (Iraq), Persia (Iran) and Egypt.
"I am neither a traitor nor a spy, I only wanted the world to know what was happening." He also said, "We don't need a Jewish state. There needs to be a Palestinian state. Jews can, and have lived anywhere, so a Jewish State is not necessary."
Vanunu =[.
Isn't he still in jail?
Dude outed Israel's nuclear program.
...went to jail for it.
As someone of Jewish descent, I've always been a supporter of Israel and its right to exist. The situation is far more complicated than "Israel BAD, Palestinians good", and I get rather sick of people calling me heartless or fascist because of it. I honestly wish people would examine both sides of the issue instead of condemning one side and aligning themselves with the other.
Just my general feelings. Not directed at anyone in here.
Released. But he can't leave the country. Or talk to journalists. you know, the usual BS.
A true friend of world peace nonetheless.
An imprisoned man regardless.
Toying with you.
But you do remind me of a milder version of this:
But you do remind me of a milder version of this:
a milder version of this:
a milder version
milder
Israel doesn't exist as a state.
And the most famous member from that group is this guy:
Not the smartest guy around, but certainly a true hero in my book. Israel would be a very different country with more people like him around.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu
What are you talking about?
Oppression of people and evolving borders to name a few according IR theory doesn't make Israel a state. Same goes for pretty much every other nation state in the country. Mexico doesn't even accept the U.S. as a right to exist.
I love the people who say Hezbollah hides behind civilians, as if they're a conventional military force. They are the civilians. They're bakers and farmers and barbers who took up arms against an occupying army. Israel created Hezbollah. Their greatest strength is that they're fighting for their own villages and families. Of course Israel would defeat any conventional army in the region, but it's going to take more guts than they have to extinguish the desire to resist and be free. To do that Israel would really have to carpet bomb and wipe out all of the civilian population of Lebanon.
Consider if an invading army came into your home. Would you surrender, or would you resist?
Defending your country is one thing, wishing to see a neighboring country completely wiped off the map is another.
Any Hizbollah retaliation to an attack on Iran's nuclear facilities would prompt Israel to launch a war in Lebanon so ferocious that it would take a decade to rebuild the villages it destroys, a senior Israeli military officer has warned.
"The Lebanese government has to take this into consideration. Many of the villages in southern Lebanon will be destroyed. Unfortunate, but we will have no other solution. The day after (we attack) the village will be something that it will take 10 years to rebuild."
They reject the creation of the state of Israel, as do I.
But they've said openly, that if the Palestinians reach a peace agreement with Israel, Hezbollah would abide by it.
The only country talking about violently wiping another country off the map is Israel:
Of course, they already have experience wiping a country off a map. It's happening on a daily basis.
This is something we will never agree on, as the other thread has shown. It's probably best that we realize this now and agree to disagree.
Link me to where it says this, please.
Indeed, and Israel's expansion needs to be stopped.
Most recently, watch Nasrallah's interview with Julian Assange.
If a Kurdistan were created, I would not object to it. Whether or not it will ever happen is another story, but I'd support their sovereignty if it ever did. However, a nation for Jews did happen, and dismantling it will only create a slew of new problems.
I might be off here, but you seem to have some sort of beef with my support for the existence of Israel. Considering the factors that led to its creation (i.e. centuries of persecution and a desire for independence) and that it is a place that was created as a means to protect Jews and give us a sense of independence and dignity, it's hardly unreasonable for a Jew such as myself to want it to exist and thrive. For example, what if there were an outbreak of antisemitism in our country of residence and we had nowhere else to go, what do we do then? Stay here and wait for our death, or escape to a country full of our own kinsmen that won't shut the door in our faces (like America did during the Holocaust)? At least with Israel, we have something to fall back on, and I don't think that should be taken from us.
I love the people who say Hezbollah hides behind civilians, as if they're a conventional military force. They are the civilians. They're bakers and farmers and barbers who took up arms against an occupying army. Israel created Hezbollah. Their greatest strength is that they're fighting for their own villages and families. Of course Israel would defeat any conventional army in the region, but it's going to take more guts than they have to extinguish the desire to resist and be free. To do that Israel would really have to carpet bomb and wipe out all of the civilian population of Lebanon.
Consider if an invading army came into your home. Would you surrender, or would you resist?
His argument here is flawed. If there doesn't need to be a Jewish state, why does there need to be a Palestinian one? Jews have settled all over the world. Palestinians can do the same, so his point is lost on me.
Defending your country is one thing, wishing to see a neighboring country completely wiped off the map is another.
What are you talking about?
His argument here is flawed. If there doesn't need to be a Jewish state, why does there need to be a Palestinian one? Jews have settled all over the world. Palestinians can do the same, so his point is lost on me.
It would have made more sense to slice off a piece of Germany or something. More valuable real estate too.
It would have made more sense to slice off a piece of Germany or something. More valuable real estate too.
Or... If the Palestinians don't need a state, why do Jews need one? Am i right?
His argument is still pretty simple. Jews have lived scattered all around the world for 2 thousands years, they can continue to do so. He doesn't believe the Palestinians need to give up to make room for a group of foreigners.
While I don't think an artificial state needed to be created for that purpose, practically, it would have made more sense than in Palestine. It would be double the pain in the butt for Germany, like another Poland, so there would be benefits for the rest of the world.
I don't buy this. Most of our years in Europe were spent being persecuted, burned alive, isolated, exiled, and generally treated as foreigners or "other".
Why would any Jew circa 1948 opt out of living in a UN partitioned land, run by Jews, for Jews, with independence and nationhood, in favor of returning to a life that resulted in more than 6 million of them being killed in the most heinous ways.
I don't agree with your assertion that Jews are foreigners though, as I have explained before.
See my above post. You would have to be insanely insensitive to try to convince a Holocaust refugee or survivor to go live in Germany (at least back then) after the Germans tried to wipe them out. They picked Palestine because it is commonly considered their land of origin, regardless of whether or not you personally believe it.
Gee, give the Roma a homeland then. Or any other maligned group for that matter. Just because.
Well, the majority of Jews still live outside of Israel. You do too as far as I can tell. They've made their choice then, and they're still making that choice now.
The Jews who emigrated to Palestine were foreigners by the most conservative definition of the word. They were not returning "home" but to a land were their ancestors used to live long ago. They had little in common with the local population and carved out a piece of territory to live a mostly Western way of life.