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Square Enix: PS4 & 720 Will Need Plenty Of RAM To Meet Our Standard (+Edge RAM Rumor)

Famassu

Member
A lot of Square's output on handhelds isn't even internally done.
Birth By Sleep, Type-0, Dissidia, DDD and such have been internally developed and the rest have had a lot of staff & creative input from Square Enix's side (i.e. Theatrhythm's idea came from the producer from Square Enix and Nomura was the creative director, a big part of 3rd Birthday's development team was from Square Enix). The problem with the console games have been the tools they've used (Last Remnant used UE3, which had non-existent, shitty Japanese support at the time, FFXIII used Crystal Tools which are one big mess), which have caused hardships in development, which have in turn meant they've had to focus on solving those problems and then rushing things out once they did figure things out (i.e. XIII's actual development time was about a year, the rest of the time went to figuring out the mess that is Crystal Tools).


What I was getting at is why should people be pumped for their console output based on that handheld output. I don't think anyone has questioned their ability to make great games anymore.
Because many of their handheld titles really don't have much to be ashamed about when compared to console games. You could put Birth By Sleep on a console and it'd still be one of the best action RPGs on any of them.


Here's a hint: What they PLAN OR AIM ON DOING isn't going matter until they FOLLOW THROUGH with it. If (or when, according to you) Square Enix magically transforms their entire business model next generation based on this engine and is able to launch more than three titles for the entire generation without it being a complete development clusterfuck then you can bring this up all you want and I'll admit I was wrong. But until then it's on Square Enix to prove that they realized their mistakes and have changed and deliver what gamers want.
Yes, you are right. They aren't going to MAGICALLY turn things around. That's why they have still seemed to be a bit out of loop even though they've been going through the motions of improving their development pipelines etc. You don't turn around your whole company's development practices in one night and that's why it might've still seemed like they are still the same SE they were 3-4 years ago, at times. Though, I'd argue we already have seen a lot of what these improvements will entail, especially on the handheld side. It just takes longer for these changes to affect the biggest console productions and these improvements to become standard practice inside the company.

Who told you that? Your crystal ball?
Maybe the fact that the next big thing they are hyping up is kind of up in the air if even PS4/Xbox 8 can manage, let alone Wii U. Of course, they HAVE said that not every game will take advantage of Luminous Engine, so there might still be a few games like Crystal Bearers made exclusively for Wii U.
 

KageMaru

Member
I can agree with that so long as we include the modifier "eventually" somewhere.

Sure. =p

I think most people blame the studios and their decision to ignore a (potentially) huge part of the market as well as other stupid decisions, not the HD consoles themselves, at least that's how I look at it. I can't recall anyone directly blaming the power of the HD consoles as the reason for all the bankruptcies.

There's a few other possible explanations too I guess, e.g. that the damage is done and Nintendo simply provides an additional market for 3rd parties with Wii U, maybe a reasonable middle ground. I would also prefer Sony/Microsoft to try other things instead of simply more power, because that's inevitable a downward spiral, but I fear that given this industry (business model, 3rd parties etc.) it's wishful thinking.

I see and agree to an extent. Unfortunately this industry is very visual based since people usually see a game before they get to play it.

Try harder bro.

I stand corrected. Way to go, you proved me wrong while completely side stepping the main point of our conversation. Why even bother cherry picking only specific portions when it makes you look bad in the process? Ignore what you can't refute and bring up meaningless things overlooked to have your little "victory", right?
 

Hero

Member
I stand corrected. Way to go, you proved me wrong while completely side stepping the main point of our conversation. Why even bother cherry picking only specific portions when it makes you look bad in the process? Ignore what you can't refute and bring up meaningless things overlooked to have your little "victory", right?

It's pointless to argue with you because all you do is wind up saying "no you're wrong, I'm right." Maybe you get satisfaction over arguing with people on the internet but I have better things to do with my time. Perhaps if you tried having a civil discussion instead of resorting to name calling or slandering I would actually converse with you but every thread I see you in has you acting the same way. You can continue thinking you're some gaming industry guru with all the knowledge and the right answers, I couldn't care less. We'll see where the chips fall next generation.
 

Eideka

Banned
It's pointless to argue with you because all you do is wind up saying "no you're wrong, I'm right." Maybe you get satisfaction over arguing with people on the internet but I have better things to do with my time. Perhaps if you tried having a civil discussion instead of resorting to name calling or slandering I would actually converse with you but every thread I see you in has you acting the same way. You can continue thinking you're some gaming industry guru with all the knowledge and the right answers, I couldn't care less. We'll see where the chips fall next generation.

You've got to admit he knows what he's talking about. I don't necessarily take his word for it everytime but he's always interesting to read.
 

KageMaru

Member
It's pointless to argue with you because all you do is wind up saying "no you're wrong, I'm right." Maybe you get satisfaction over arguing with people on the internet but I have better things to do with my time. Perhaps if you tried having a civil discussion instead of resorting to name calling or slandering I would actually converse with you but every thread I see you in has you acting the same way. You can continue thinking you're some gaming industry guru with all the knowledge and the right answers, I couldn't care less. We'll see where the chips fall next generation.

You're right, my first post towards you was confrontational, likely due to my annoyance over the consistent insinuation that pushing tech negatively effects gameplay. Also that guru talk is not me at all, I just usually don't post unless I have a decent idea what I'm talking about.

Square pushing for efficient ways to create games is a strong indication that they have learned a few things. That has been my only point all along.
 

Thoraxes

Member
I hope the next-gen consoles have all the rams possible with external ram boxes for purchase followed by HDDs dedicated for ramdisks.

We need at least 12000 rams to make this stuff work guise.
 

Paracelsus

Member
You're right, my first post towards you was confrontational, likely due to my annoyance over the consistent insinuation that pushing tech negatively effects gameplay. Also that guru talk is no me at all, I just usually don't post unless I have a decent idea what I'm talking about.

Square pushing for efficient ways to create games is a strong indication that they have learned a few things. That has been my only point all along.

To create cutting edge games, mind you. Graphics aren't a problem when you got all the other elements right, which has not been the case for Square since a very long time, if they mostly focus on graphics it means they think everything else is fine, and they are wrong.
 

KageMaru

Member
So why did they support PS2 over Xbox , DS over PSP ?

In both cases the respective piece of hardware held a huge lead over the closest competitor.

The PS2 was developers only option for ~18 months, so studios basically had no choice but to invest on that system heavily. Even after the other consoles launched, it was foolish to throw away all they've invested to start over on the Xbox or gamecube. Also last Gen, the ps2's install base was so large, you could invest in just that system and still pull in a profit. This is preferred over worrying about supporting multiple platforms.

To create cutting edge games, mind you. Graphics aren't a problem when you got all the other elements right, which has not been the case for Square since a very long time.

I can certainly see that point. It's no secret that SE has suffered this Gen. I think that has more to do with their lack of preparation, and putting most of their eggs in one basket, than pushing for tech.

Just noticed you added more. I don't think they think they are fine with just prettier graphics. I think the idea is cutting down the work flow necessary to achieve pretty graphics so they can spend more time on other aspects. We'll see if it pays off for them.

Edit:

My point was xbox had twice the Ram of ps2, so its not about the power, its about the console market share and always will be.

Market share plays less of a role these days when there isn't a dominant party anymore.

Now a days a developer knows they need to support platforms A, B, and, C. How they develop for these platforms depends on factors like dev tools more than install base.
 
What does it matter if they have 2GB or 200GB RAM? At the end of the day, it's still Toriyama. He does not improve with more RAM.
 
Square, everything you're doing is making me miss the 16-Bit generation.

I don't care about graphics. I don't. And you have bigger things to worry about.
 

Dali

Member
Exactly. At the dawn of a new generation, developers have to make their bets and hope it pays off in the end.

That's old thinking. For a developer the size of Square this no longer holds true. Maybe for tiny developers like Treasure this may still be the reality, but the big boys should have a better business plan than that by now.
 

StevieP

Banned
That's old thinking. For a developer the size of Square this no longer holds true. Maybe for tiny developers like Treasure this may still be the reality, but the big boys should have a better business plan than that by now.

They don't. Same thing is happening as last gen right now. This time it's the Xbox not the PS.
 

Dali

Member
They don't. Same thing is happening as last gen right now. This time it's the Xbox not the PS.

We're talking about the PS4 and 720 though, right? Yeah, pretty much every large Japanese developer save Capcom were caught with their pants down with concepts like... multiplatform middleware. But I seriously doubt Square kept their head up their ass this entire generation and haven't learned their lesson.
 

Ryoku

Member
Did anyone else catch notice of the fact that Takeshi Nozue never mentions any specific console? The only thing related to Xbox3 is what the anonymous developer (surprise, surprise) pointed out about the RAM usage in the console. The rest of the mentions about PS4/Xbox3 are from the article writer himself.
But this is Gaf, so whatever. It's not like I'm expecting Agni's Philosphy-level (1:1) graphics in any of the next-gen systems, anyways.
 

Antiochus

Member
It interesting that not only Agni's Philosophy demo was running on the Gtx 680, but also Watchdogs and Star Wars 1313. No AMD's 7970 in sight.

Interesting indeed
 

Boss Man

Member
Did anyone else catch notice of the fact that Takeshi Nozue never mentions any specific console? The only thing related to Xbox3 is what the anonymous developer (surprise, surprise) pointed out about the RAM usage in the console. The rest of the mentions about PS4/Xbox3 are from the article writer himself.
But this is Gaf, so whatever. It's not like I'm expecting Agni's Philosphy-level (1:1) graphics in any of the next-gen systems, anyways.
I think most everyone is...assuming...that this type of game won't be on Wii U.

It also doesn't make sense for him to hope for more RAM from a system that has already been built, so context and stuff.
 

Ryoku

Member
It interesting that not only Agni's Philosophy demo was running on the Gtx 680, but also Watchdogs and Star Wars 1313. No AMD's 7970 in sight.

Interesting indeed

Why would this be interesting given the context of consoles?

It also doesn't make sense for him to hope for more RAM from a system that has already been built, so context and stuff.

Completely overlooked this aspect. My bad. From what it seems, however, assuming Xbox3 may still have a hefty amount of RAM left over from the non-gaming footprint, Square Enix is really being unreasonable here. Almost as bad as Crytek and Epic asking for at least 8GB of usable RAM. On top of that, Square Enix's engine isn't a widely used engine, and their performance this gen helps little to convince Sony and Microsoft to do much about it. You'll still get quality-looking games, though.
 

goomba

Banned
In both cases the respective piece of hardware held a huge lead over the closest competitor.

The PS2 was developers only option for ~18 months, so studios basically had no choice but to invest on that system heavily. Even after the other consoles launched, it was foolish to throw away all they've invested to start over on the Xbox or gamecube. Also last Gen, the ps2's install base was so large, you could invest in just that system and still pull in a profit. This is preferred over worrying about supporting multiple platforms.



I can certainly see that point. It's no secret that SE has suffered this Gen. I think that has more to do with their lack of preparation, and putting most of their eggs in one basket, than pushing for tech.

Just noticed you added more. I don't think they think they are fine with just prettier graphics. I think the idea is cutting down the work flow necessary to achieve pretty graphics so they can spend more time on other aspects. We'll see if it pays off for them.

Edit:



Market share plays less of a role these days when there isn't a dominant party anymore.

Now a days a developer knows they need to support platforms A, B, and, C. How they develop for these platforms depends on factors like dev tools more than install base.

Who's to say that next gen won't have a dominant party ?.
 
Why would this be interesting given the context of consoles

All the consoles are using AMD GPUs and AMD GFLOPs "aren't the most accurate" (I notice that too Antiochus). Based strictly (you know I like to use this word here) on paper FLOPs, PS4s GPU has more than a GTX 580.
 

Famassu

Member
To create cutting edge games, mind you. Graphics aren't a problem when you got all the other elements right, which has not been the case for Square since a very long time
Again, what's the problem with games like Kingdom Hearst: Birth By Sleep & 3D, The World Ends With You, Dissidia 012, 3rd Birthday (other than Toriyama's writing), Theatrhythm and many other good to great games they've released within the past few years? I'd say many of their games have still been at the top of their genres. They look great (on their respective platforms) and play great, partly because they've gotten their development pipelines "corrected" to being able to efficiently create fun content while not having to sacrifice the audiovisual side of things.

XIII-2, XIV 2.0 and the ever evolving Kingdom Hearts series show that they do listen to fans and understand what they've done wrong and what they've done right. While XIII-2 still suffered from Toriyama's writing and is far from perfect in other ways as well, gameplay-wise it's a big step forward from XIII in many ways and I doubt we'll ever see another XIII in terms of linearity and stripped down content (or screwed up development).

It's getting silly when all of Square Enix (of recent past as well as the future SE) is judged based on a few miss steps while ignoring they've been doing a lot of great work in the meanwhile and taking steps to make sure they don't repeat some of their biggest downfalls in the future. Sure, it still won't make Toriyama's writing any better, but it might still produce great games that are fun to play AND great to look at.


Besides, claiming graphics don't matter is really naive. Just make most of NeoGAF play a game with sub-HD graphics or a little bit of screen-tearing or framerate drops or bad ground textures and the bitching never ends. :| People who buy a console like PS3 do like to see that hardware being taken advantage of. I like that there's still one JRPG developer who still tries to push the technical side of things as well. Though I have no problems with playing Falcom's lower-budget RPGs, it's still nice to get a visual marvel like Kingdom Hearts at times as well. Of course if I have to choose between gameplay and graphics, I choose gameplay. But really, with many of Square Enix's games, I don't have to choose.

if they mostly focus on graphics it means they think everything else is fine, and they are wrong.
Where does it say they are focusing mostly on graphics? They are focusing in making a good game engine that lets them achieve their vision without running into constant problems like with the Crystal Tools, while also being able to take advantage of whatever the next-gen gaming consoles will end up being. Having a non-problematic graphics engine will help them focus on the more important stuff, like gameplay, instead of struggling getting even the basics of gameplay up & running and some content to go with that.

Again, one of the biggest problems they've faced this gen (and actually started to face during PS2 development already, it just culminated into the Crystal Tools fiasco) has been conquering technical problems due to them trying to maintain the scope of their productions. The infamous "HD towns are hard/impossible"quote sounds silly and downright incompetent out of context (and sure, there's some incompetence behind it with the CT), but when you know that they developed XIII in not much more than a year, HD towns were pretty much impossible with their schedule.
 

Ryoku

Member
All the consoles are using AMD GPUs and AMD GFLOPs "aren't the most accurate" (I notice that too Antiochus). Based strictly (you know I like to use this word here) on paper FLOPs, PS4s GPU has more than a GTX 580.

Didn't realize we were talking about Flops, but yeah, now that you mention it, care to expand on why you might find this interesting? I thought we already knew a 580 or 680 were more powerful than the GPUs rumored to be inside the next-gen consoles.
 
Regarding XIII, is the reason people dislike it that's often brought up - the linearity - something new to the Final Fantasy games?

I recall X being pretty linear.

The story was a mess. And they did a poor job of hiding the linearity, though.

But isn't this more a matter of the changing tastes of the (western) market? Other JRPGs have been getting similarly lukewarm receptions really.
 
Regarding XIII, is the reason people dislike it that's often brought up - the linearity - something new to the Final Fantasy games?

I recall X being pretty linear.

The story was a mess. And they did a poor job of hiding the linearity, though.

But isn't this more a matter of the changing tastes of the (western) market? Other JRPGs have been getting similarly lukewarm receptions really.
According to my friend all characters were pretty much unlikable as well.
 

ASIS

Member
Regarding XIII, is the reason people dislike it that's often brought up - the linearity - something new to the Final Fantasy games?

I recall X being pretty linear.

The story was a mess. And they did a poor job of hiding the linearity, though.

But isn't this more a matter of the changing tastes of the (western) market? Other JRPGs have been getting similarly lukewarm receptions really.

You have a lot of mini games and side quests throughout the game. You had a constant change of pace from beginning to end (and no, it wasn't just because of towns.. even though it did help). Most importantly, you were able to revisit pretty much every area in the game.

Finally, FFX's linearity wasn't boiled down to corridor after corridor.
 
Didn't realize we were talking about Flops, but yeah, now that you mention it, care to expand on why you might find this interesting? I thought we already knew a 580 or 680 were more powerful than the GPUs rumored to be inside the next-gen consoles.

Goes back to the Samaritan talk from a few months ago and what we talked about partially recently. Applying it to a current context these devs are making demands for what they want from the console makers and using hardware that's not only clearly more powerful, but the top line single GPU from nVidia while the consoles are using AMD GPUs. It's like they are maximizing the gap between the demo hardware and the consoles and saying "this is where we want you to be".
 

Ryoku

Member
Umm.. actually yes, yes it does. It improves everything.

EDIT: Not graphics per se, but power in general.

To a certain point, power increases the potential and capability of a game. Gameplay itself is up to the developers. Simply, it more so depends on the developers than power to make gameplay different and unique.
 

KageMaru

Member
That's old thinking. For a developer the size of Square this no longer holds true. Maybe for tiny developers like Treasure this may still be the reality, but the big boys should have a better business plan than that by now.

You don't think it's a good strategy to release new IPs while the library is thin with less competition on the shelf?

Who's to say that next gen won't have a dominant party ?.

IMO all the major players have enough mindshare to prevent any domination. It's possible but unlikely.

Didn't realize we were talking about Flops, but yeah, now that you mention it, care to expand on why you might find this interesting? I thought we already knew a 580 or 680 were more powerful than the GPUs rumored to be inside the next-gen consoles.

It's still odd that this tech is developed on NVIDIA hardware when all the next Gen consoles are running with AMD GPUs.
 

Dan Yo

Banned
But this is Gaf, so whatever. It's not like I'm expecting Agni's Philosphy-level (1:1) graphics in any of the next-gen systems, anyways.
Why is everyone so down on next gen? Is it because of the Wii? Agni's level of graphics is exactly the type of jump typically expected going from one console gen to the next. Only difference is, most gens only take 5 years.
 

Famassu

Member
they still think better graphics = better games?
at some point, this theory won't apply anymore
So you think devs should go back to NES graphics and not try to take advantage of any future platforms? Since absolutely no one wants graphics to improve or gets a PS4 or Xbox 8 to get a more powerful console that is capable of more than PS360.

No one from Square Enix is saying better graphics = better games, but they are a company who do try to take advantage of whatever platform they are working on instead of making PS1 games on PS3. With the Luminous Engine they are simply trying to fix one of the biggest problems they've had in developing their games during the last two generations, which have caused some bloated development times and other issues during development, which have also had negative effects on the gameplay of those games. Being better prepared for the next generation and having less problematic development thanks to that means they can focus on polishing and improving gameplay instead of just fighting with getting something done.

I mean, the handheld titles prove what they can do when they have no technical problems. With the Luminous Engine they should be a few steps closer to what they've got going with portables.
 
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