Sentenza
Member
I'm not a Chris Rock fan, I have no idea of what you are talking about, and to be honest I'm probably better that way.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
If you don't wish to accept the new Steam Subscriber Agreement...
- Thread starter Gowans
- Start date
I'm guessing most of them didn't know, nor have hundreds of dollars tied to their account.
Is there a point to this?
NoirVisage
Banned
Way hostile, is there a reason for that?
Sentenza
Member
It's mostly about the fact that arguing with water_wendi is usually all about hyperbolic exaggerations and strawman arguments like if there was no tomorrow.
That, AND I really don't like Chris Rock.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
i was agreeing with you.
Zombie James
Banned
Locking people out of games they're already bought is bullshit, Valve. Fuck your TOS.
Sentenza
Member
Yeah, I get it after watching that video linked by Yeef.
I clearly misinterpreted your joke, sorry.
When I first heard about the newest EULA for Steam I was concerned about it but was going to accept it after I got around to skimming it.
But the recent announcement that you wont be able to access previous purchases unless the user accepts the terms is completely unreasonable and it made me look more closely at the contract.
Initial reactions by some people including myself was whether or not we should sue to get this repealed but thinking it over and doing a little research I see there is an alternative step that can be done before doing something so drastic, expensive and time consuming.
My goal is to create a counter offer contract that revises two issues I think that are important.
1) The first issue is what options are available to a person who declines the terms of an EULA.
2) The second issue is that Steam is demanding for individual arbitration and we cant as individuals consult or collaborate with the rest of our peers who are also going to an arbitration session with Valve without their consent (read: permission).
Regarding (1) The current stance that we cant access games we paid for is ridiculous. Im mostly ok with EULA, aside from point (2), and even if that couldnt be negotiated away I would still be willing to use Steam but I strongly believe others should have the option to refuse a contract they dont like and still access what they paid for under the old contract.
Regarding (2) I agree with Valve that class action suits are expensive, time consuming and not helpful to the consumer. I dont agree that arbitration should be restricted to the individual level because of it.
If we give up the option to arbitrate as a group we concede some of the power that made class action lawsuits necessary in the first place. I personally consider it is in our best interest from a time and money stand point to arbitrate instead of litigate. You may disagree with that. But I think we would agree that group arbitration is better than individual.
I have sent 3 additional messages.
The message titled Counter-Contract for Steam EULA is the new contract Im proposing. All the changes are in caps. Its not much.
The message titled Survey on Steam EULA is a simple set of 5 questions get a feel on the people Im reaching out to. Each question helps me determine the scope of how we could proceed as a team if we are going to negotiate or sue if negotiating fails.
I also put forward a few questions because I need assistance on deciding on several things like choosing the right contract creation software, where we should congregate so all Steam users can talk about this because Neogaf is too restrictive on new registrants, etc.
For those who have second thoughts about that contract you already agreed to keep in mind the EULA isnt enforced until 30 days after it first came up on Steam. You can change your mind and take part in this process to change the contract.
But the recent announcement that you wont be able to access previous purchases unless the user accepts the terms is completely unreasonable and it made me look more closely at the contract.
Initial reactions by some people including myself was whether or not we should sue to get this repealed but thinking it over and doing a little research I see there is an alternative step that can be done before doing something so drastic, expensive and time consuming.
My goal is to create a counter offer contract that revises two issues I think that are important.
1) The first issue is what options are available to a person who declines the terms of an EULA.
2) The second issue is that Steam is demanding for individual arbitration and we cant as individuals consult or collaborate with the rest of our peers who are also going to an arbitration session with Valve without their consent (read: permission).
Regarding (1) The current stance that we cant access games we paid for is ridiculous. Im mostly ok with EULA, aside from point (2), and even if that couldnt be negotiated away I would still be willing to use Steam but I strongly believe others should have the option to refuse a contract they dont like and still access what they paid for under the old contract.
Regarding (2) I agree with Valve that class action suits are expensive, time consuming and not helpful to the consumer. I dont agree that arbitration should be restricted to the individual level because of it.
If we give up the option to arbitrate as a group we concede some of the power that made class action lawsuits necessary in the first place. I personally consider it is in our best interest from a time and money stand point to arbitrate instead of litigate. You may disagree with that. But I think we would agree that group arbitration is better than individual.
I have sent 3 additional messages.
The message titled Counter-Contract for Steam EULA is the new contract Im proposing. All the changes are in caps. Its not much.
The message titled Survey on Steam EULA is a simple set of 5 questions get a feel on the people Im reaching out to. Each question helps me determine the scope of how we could proceed as a team if we are going to negotiate or sue if negotiating fails.
I also put forward a few questions because I need assistance on deciding on several things like choosing the right contract creation software, where we should congregate so all Steam users can talk about this because Neogaf is too restrictive on new registrants, etc.
For those who have second thoughts about that contract you already agreed to keep in mind the EULA isnt enforced until 30 days after it first came up on Steam. You can change your mind and take part in this process to change the contract.
faceless007
Member
I have written many replies about that particular line of illogic in many topics, yes, as it's mind-boggingly frequent, though I don't which specific one you're talking about and I'm certainly not the only one.
Preamble
As customers of Valve Inc. we understand Valves need to make a new contract revising the terms for legal options. After reviewing your contract, and consulting your customer service representatives on the finer details, we cant accept the terms as written and offer an alternative contract for you to consider.
We present this contract, not to represent just ourselves; but those who have already accepted the agreement in poor faith and to address the concerns of future consumers of Valve related products and services.
There is a tacit understanding made between us and Valve that Valve provides a venue for software developers and customers to sell and buy goods respectively with a set of advantages and disadvantages that we agree makes selling and buying on Steam worthwhile. Barring customers for using licenses they purchased under previous contracts because they wont accept a new one with Valve is unconscionable and decaying the value both the developer and customer place in Valves services and platform.
An equally troubling problem is that Valve seeks to revoke our ability to act as a group. The ability to act as a group is a very powerful corrective force that allows people to make better judgements in how to deal with legal matters. It also allows them to better manage the costs in time and money by delegating responsibilities and sharing the burdens of any matter, not just legal.
Valve has long considered itself a good partner for buyers and a patron of positive consumer values. To throwout one of the most important tools in making the lives of their customers more efficient runs counter to past behavior and you need to carefully reconsider how you made such a faulty error in judgement.
All the changes found in this counter-offer is written in caps. To quickly find the changes simple search for the word [change].
To contact us for further negotiation you can *THIS WILL BE FILLED IN ONCE WE HASH OUT CERTAIN DETAILS*
Steam® subscriber agreement
<snipped for brevity>
10. Term and termination
A. Term.
The term of this agreement (the "term") commences on the date you first indicate your acceptance of these terms, and will continue in effect until otherwise terminated in accordance with this agreement.
B. Termination by you.
You may cancel your account at any time. You may cease use of a subscription at any time or, if you choose, you may request that we terminate your access to a subscription. However, subscriptions are not transferable, and even if your access to a subscription for a particular game or application is terminated, the original activation key will not be able to be registered to any other account, even if the game or application was purchased in a retail store. Access to subscriptions purchased as a part of a pack or bundle cannot be terminated individually, termination of access to one game within the bundle will result in termination of access to all games purchased in the pack will be removed from the account. Your cancellation of an account, or your cessation of use of any subscription or request that access to a subscription be terminated, will not entitle you to any refund, including of any subscription fees. Valve reserves the right to collect fees, surcharges or costs incurred prior to the cancellation of your account or termination of your access to a particular subscription. In addition, you are responsible for any charges incurred to third-party vendors or content providers before your cancellation.
[change]UPON CANCELLING YOUR ACCOUNT YOU STILL RETAIN ACCESS TO SOFTWARE PURCHASED FROM VALVE FROM STEAM BUT ARENT GIVEN ACCESS TO ANY OF VALVE RELATED SERVICES AND ADDITIONAL SOFTWARE OTHER THAN THE SERVICE NEEDED FOR AUTHENTICATION OF YOUR PREVIOUS PURCHASE.
IF YOU DECLINE TO ACCEPT THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT THIS ISNT CONSIDERED TO BE CANCELLATION. YOU WILL HAVE THE SAME LIMITATIONS AS A CANCELLED ACCOUNT UNTIL YOU AGREE TO THE NEW TERMS YOU HAVE MADE WITH VALVE. [/change]
C. Termination by valve.
Valve may cancel your account or any particular subscription(s) at any time. In the event that your account or a particular subscription is terminated or cancelled by valve for a violation of this agreement or improper or illegal activity, no refund, including of any subscription fees, will be granted.
D. Survival of terms.
Sections 2(c), 2(e), 2(f), 3(a), 3(b), 3(d), 3(h), and 5 - 13 will survive any expiration or termination of this agreement. Unused funds in your steam wallet are not refundable upon expiration or termination.
<snipped for brevity>
12. Dispute resolution/binding arbitration/class action waiver.
Most user concerns can be resolved by use of our steam support site athttps://support.steampowered.com/. If we are unable to resolve your concerns and a dispute remains between you and valve, this section explains how we agree to resolve it.
You and valve agree to resolve all disputes and claims between us in individual binding arbitration. That includes, but is not limited to, any claims arising out of or relating to: (i) any aspect of the relationship between us; (ii) this agreement; or (iii) your use of steam, your account or the software. It applies regardless of whether such claims are based in contract, tort, statute, fraud, unfair competition, misrepresentation or any other legal theory.
However, this section does not apply to the following types of claims or disputes, which you or valve may bring in any court with jurisdiction: (i) claims of infringement or other misuse of intellectual property rights, including such claims seeking injunctive relief; and (ii) claims related to or arising from any alleged unauthorized use, piracy or theft.
This section does not prevent you from bringing your dispute to the attention of any federal, state, or local government agencies that can, if the law allows, seek relief from us for you.
An arbitration is a proceeding before a neutral arbitrator, instead of before a judge or jury. Arbitration is less formal than a lawsuit in court, and provides more limited discovery. It follows different rules than court proceedings, and is subject to very limited review by courts. The arbitrator will issue a written decision and provide a statement of reasons if requested by either party. You understand that you and valve are giving up the right to sue in court and to have a trial before a judge or jury.
You and valve agree to make reasonable, good faith efforts to informally resolve any dispute before initiating arbitration. A party who intends to seek arbitration must first send the other a written notice that describes the nature and basis of the claim or dispute and sets forth the relief sought. If you and valve do not reach an agreement to resolve that claim or dispute within 30 days after the notice is received, you or valve may commence an arbitration. Written notice to valve must be sent via postal mail to: attn: arbitration notice, valve corporation, p.o. box 1688, bellevue, wa 98004.
The federal arbitration act applies to this section. The arbitration will be governed by the commercial arbitration rules of the american arbitration association (AAA) and, where applicable, the aaas supplementary procedures for consumer related disputes, as modified by this agreement, both of which are available athttp://www.adr.org. The arbitrator is bound by the terms of this agreement.
The AAA will administer the arbitration. It may be conducted through the submission of documents, by phone, or in person in the county where you live or at another mutually agreed location.
If you seek $10,000 or less, valve agrees to reimburse your filing fee and your share of the arbitration costs, including your share of arbitrator compensation, at the conclusion of the proceeding, unless the arbitrator determines your claims are frivolous or costs are unreasonable as determined by the arbitrator. Valve agrees not to seek its attorneys' fees or costs in arbitration unless the arbitrator determines your claims are frivolous or costs are unreasonable as determined by the arbitrator. If you seek more than $10,000, the arbitration costs, including arbitrator compensation, will be split between you and valve according to the AAA commercial arbitration rules and the AAAs supplementary procedures for consumer related disputes, if applicable.
[change]YOU AND VALVE AGREE NOT TO BRING OR PARTICIPATE IN A CLASS OR REPRESENTATIVE ACTION, OR PRIVATE ATTORNEY GENERAL ACTION EVEN IF AAAS PROCEDURES OR RULES WOULD OTHERWISE ALLOW ONE. YOU MAY BRING OR PARTICPATE IN COLLECTIVE ARBITRATION. THE ARBITRATOR MAY AWARD RELIEF ONLY IN FAVOR OF THE INDIVIDUAL OR COLLECTIVE PARTY SEEKING RELIEF AND ONLY TO THE EXTENT OF THAT PARTYS INDIVIDUAL OR COLLECTIVE CLAIM. [/change]You and valve also agree not to seek to combine any action or arbitration with any other action or arbitration without the consent of all parties to this agreement and all other actions or arbitrations.
[change]IF THE AGREEMENT IN THIS SECTION NOT TO BRING OR PARTICIPATE IN A CLASS OR REPRESENTATIVE ACTION, OR PRIVATE ATTORNEY GENERAL ACTION SHOULD BE FOUND ILLEGAL OR UNENFORCEABLE, YOU AND VALVE AGREE THAT IT SHALL NOT BE SEVERABLE, THAT THIS ENTIRE SECTION SHALL BE UNENFORCEABLE AND ANY CLAIM OR DISPUTE WOULD BE RESOLVED IN COURT OR IN COLLECTIVE ARBITRATION.[/change]
Notwithstanding this section, you have the right to litigate any dispute in small claims court, if all the requirements of the small claims court, including any limitations on jurisdiction and the amount at issue in the dispute, are satisfied.
This section 12 shall apply to the maximum extent permitted by applicable law. If the laws of your jurisdiction prohibit the application of some or all of the provisions of this section notwithstanding section 11 (applicable law/jurisdiction), such provisions will not apply to you.
<snipped for brevity>
[/LIST]
As customers of Valve Inc. we understand Valves need to make a new contract revising the terms for legal options. After reviewing your contract, and consulting your customer service representatives on the finer details, we cant accept the terms as written and offer an alternative contract for you to consider.
We present this contract, not to represent just ourselves; but those who have already accepted the agreement in poor faith and to address the concerns of future consumers of Valve related products and services.
There is a tacit understanding made between us and Valve that Valve provides a venue for software developers and customers to sell and buy goods respectively with a set of advantages and disadvantages that we agree makes selling and buying on Steam worthwhile. Barring customers for using licenses they purchased under previous contracts because they wont accept a new one with Valve is unconscionable and decaying the value both the developer and customer place in Valves services and platform.
An equally troubling problem is that Valve seeks to revoke our ability to act as a group. The ability to act as a group is a very powerful corrective force that allows people to make better judgements in how to deal with legal matters. It also allows them to better manage the costs in time and money by delegating responsibilities and sharing the burdens of any matter, not just legal.
Valve has long considered itself a good partner for buyers and a patron of positive consumer values. To throwout one of the most important tools in making the lives of their customers more efficient runs counter to past behavior and you need to carefully reconsider how you made such a faulty error in judgement.
All the changes found in this counter-offer is written in caps. To quickly find the changes simple search for the word [change].
To contact us for further negotiation you can *THIS WILL BE FILLED IN ONCE WE HASH OUT CERTAIN DETAILS*
Steam® subscriber agreement
<snipped for brevity>
10. Term and termination
A. Term.
The term of this agreement (the "term") commences on the date you first indicate your acceptance of these terms, and will continue in effect until otherwise terminated in accordance with this agreement.
B. Termination by you.
You may cancel your account at any time. You may cease use of a subscription at any time or, if you choose, you may request that we terminate your access to a subscription. However, subscriptions are not transferable, and even if your access to a subscription for a particular game or application is terminated, the original activation key will not be able to be registered to any other account, even if the game or application was purchased in a retail store. Access to subscriptions purchased as a part of a pack or bundle cannot be terminated individually, termination of access to one game within the bundle will result in termination of access to all games purchased in the pack will be removed from the account. Your cancellation of an account, or your cessation of use of any subscription or request that access to a subscription be terminated, will not entitle you to any refund, including of any subscription fees. Valve reserves the right to collect fees, surcharges or costs incurred prior to the cancellation of your account or termination of your access to a particular subscription. In addition, you are responsible for any charges incurred to third-party vendors or content providers before your cancellation.
[change]UPON CANCELLING YOUR ACCOUNT YOU STILL RETAIN ACCESS TO SOFTWARE PURCHASED FROM VALVE FROM STEAM BUT ARENT GIVEN ACCESS TO ANY OF VALVE RELATED SERVICES AND ADDITIONAL SOFTWARE OTHER THAN THE SERVICE NEEDED FOR AUTHENTICATION OF YOUR PREVIOUS PURCHASE.
IF YOU DECLINE TO ACCEPT THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT THIS ISNT CONSIDERED TO BE CANCELLATION. YOU WILL HAVE THE SAME LIMITATIONS AS A CANCELLED ACCOUNT UNTIL YOU AGREE TO THE NEW TERMS YOU HAVE MADE WITH VALVE. [/change]
C. Termination by valve.
Valve may cancel your account or any particular subscription(s) at any time. In the event that your account or a particular subscription is terminated or cancelled by valve for a violation of this agreement or improper or illegal activity, no refund, including of any subscription fees, will be granted.
D. Survival of terms.
Sections 2(c), 2(e), 2(f), 3(a), 3(b), 3(d), 3(h), and 5 - 13 will survive any expiration or termination of this agreement. Unused funds in your steam wallet are not refundable upon expiration or termination.
<snipped for brevity>
12. Dispute resolution/binding arbitration/class action waiver.
Most user concerns can be resolved by use of our steam support site athttps://support.steampowered.com/. If we are unable to resolve your concerns and a dispute remains between you and valve, this section explains how we agree to resolve it.
You and valve agree to resolve all disputes and claims between us in individual binding arbitration. That includes, but is not limited to, any claims arising out of or relating to: (i) any aspect of the relationship between us; (ii) this agreement; or (iii) your use of steam, your account or the software. It applies regardless of whether such claims are based in contract, tort, statute, fraud, unfair competition, misrepresentation or any other legal theory.
However, this section does not apply to the following types of claims or disputes, which you or valve may bring in any court with jurisdiction: (i) claims of infringement or other misuse of intellectual property rights, including such claims seeking injunctive relief; and (ii) claims related to or arising from any alleged unauthorized use, piracy or theft.
This section does not prevent you from bringing your dispute to the attention of any federal, state, or local government agencies that can, if the law allows, seek relief from us for you.
An arbitration is a proceeding before a neutral arbitrator, instead of before a judge or jury. Arbitration is less formal than a lawsuit in court, and provides more limited discovery. It follows different rules than court proceedings, and is subject to very limited review by courts. The arbitrator will issue a written decision and provide a statement of reasons if requested by either party. You understand that you and valve are giving up the right to sue in court and to have a trial before a judge or jury.
You and valve agree to make reasonable, good faith efforts to informally resolve any dispute before initiating arbitration. A party who intends to seek arbitration must first send the other a written notice that describes the nature and basis of the claim or dispute and sets forth the relief sought. If you and valve do not reach an agreement to resolve that claim or dispute within 30 days after the notice is received, you or valve may commence an arbitration. Written notice to valve must be sent via postal mail to: attn: arbitration notice, valve corporation, p.o. box 1688, bellevue, wa 98004.
The federal arbitration act applies to this section. The arbitration will be governed by the commercial arbitration rules of the american arbitration association (AAA) and, where applicable, the aaas supplementary procedures for consumer related disputes, as modified by this agreement, both of which are available athttp://www.adr.org. The arbitrator is bound by the terms of this agreement.
The AAA will administer the arbitration. It may be conducted through the submission of documents, by phone, or in person in the county where you live or at another mutually agreed location.
If you seek $10,000 or less, valve agrees to reimburse your filing fee and your share of the arbitration costs, including your share of arbitrator compensation, at the conclusion of the proceeding, unless the arbitrator determines your claims are frivolous or costs are unreasonable as determined by the arbitrator. Valve agrees not to seek its attorneys' fees or costs in arbitration unless the arbitrator determines your claims are frivolous or costs are unreasonable as determined by the arbitrator. If you seek more than $10,000, the arbitration costs, including arbitrator compensation, will be split between you and valve according to the AAA commercial arbitration rules and the AAAs supplementary procedures for consumer related disputes, if applicable.
[change]YOU AND VALVE AGREE NOT TO BRING OR PARTICIPATE IN A CLASS OR REPRESENTATIVE ACTION, OR PRIVATE ATTORNEY GENERAL ACTION EVEN IF AAAS PROCEDURES OR RULES WOULD OTHERWISE ALLOW ONE. YOU MAY BRING OR PARTICPATE IN COLLECTIVE ARBITRATION. THE ARBITRATOR MAY AWARD RELIEF ONLY IN FAVOR OF THE INDIVIDUAL OR COLLECTIVE PARTY SEEKING RELIEF AND ONLY TO THE EXTENT OF THAT PARTYS INDIVIDUAL OR COLLECTIVE CLAIM. [/change]You and valve also agree not to seek to combine any action or arbitration with any other action or arbitration without the consent of all parties to this agreement and all other actions or arbitrations.
[change]IF THE AGREEMENT IN THIS SECTION NOT TO BRING OR PARTICIPATE IN A CLASS OR REPRESENTATIVE ACTION, OR PRIVATE ATTORNEY GENERAL ACTION SHOULD BE FOUND ILLEGAL OR UNENFORCEABLE, YOU AND VALVE AGREE THAT IT SHALL NOT BE SEVERABLE, THAT THIS ENTIRE SECTION SHALL BE UNENFORCEABLE AND ANY CLAIM OR DISPUTE WOULD BE RESOLVED IN COURT OR IN COLLECTIVE ARBITRATION.[/change]
Notwithstanding this section, you have the right to litigate any dispute in small claims court, if all the requirements of the small claims court, including any limitations on jurisdiction and the amount at issue in the dispute, are satisfied.
This section 12 shall apply to the maximum extent permitted by applicable law. If the laws of your jurisdiction prohibit the application of some or all of the provisions of this section notwithstanding section 11 (applicable law/jurisdiction), such provisions will not apply to you.
<snipped for brevity>
[/LIST]
- Are you from the United States?
- Are you from the European Union?
- Do you intend to/still want to keep on using Steam?
- Have you already clicked accept on the newest EULA?
- Will you sign a revised contract that changes the arbitration clause from being individual to group arbitration?
- Will you sign a revised a contract that gives all Steam users a refusal option that gives them access to games they already brought but the inability to buy games or use Steam community services until they accept the newest EULA?
There are a few things we need, to make this whole process better. I would like to hear suggestions on:
- 1. Several different form of social network platform need to be picked so everyone that uses Steam can talk about and not just Neogaf.
- 2. Digital signature services so we can verify people (and not bots) (and preferably Steam account holders) are signing this counter-contract before it is submitted to Valve.
- 3. What other alternatives do we have to resolve this situation.
NullPointer
Member
All I know for sure at this point is that I will never look at Steam the same way again.
I'll always make sure that the word "subscription" is clear in my mind when dealing with that storefront, and other similar providers.
Edit: Interesting idea wildfire.
I'll always make sure that the word "subscription" is clear in my mind when dealing with that storefront, and other similar providers.
Edit: Interesting idea wildfire.
- Are you from the United States? Yes.
- Are you from the European Union? No.
- Do you intend to/still want to keep on using Steam? Yes, but will seek out and prefer alternatives, and lessen my investment in the platform from here on out.
- Have you already clicked accept on the newest EULA? No.
- Will you sign a revised contract that changes the arbitration clause from being individual to group arbitration? Most likely.
- Will you sign a revised a contract that gives all Steam users a refusal option that gives them access to games they already brought but the inability to buy games or use Steam community services until they accept the newest EULA? In spirit, absolutely. Depends upon the fine print.
This section is just a lot of rambling thoughts where I provide details on the previous messages. The opinions and naivete expressed in here may turn you off. When it comes to information Im trying to present as factual send me an IM where I made a mistake with a citation to back you up, if it is something that looks like it requires that.
Table of Contents
Valve is Good
I like using Steam, I will eventually continue to use Steam and I like the values Valve tries to live by.
One thing I do like is that Valve is willing to pay up front for any legal fees for claims below $10,000 even if you lose, unless the arbitrator declares your claim as frivilous. Sure a risk exists but it says a lot to me that Valve still values their customers and wants to work with them as best as possible. In my mind Valve is just being misguided in their efforts to protect themselves and just need to be talked with some more.
To further prove my point, Valve in the past prevented banned accounts from accessing their purchases but they changed their stance recently. http://au.pc.gamespy.com/articles/122/1223513p1.html
(Special thanks to SparkTR for the link)
With that said here are some concrete misgivings I have with Valves new EULA.
Point (2)
There a few reasons I think collective arbitration is better than individual.
1)
Valve is putting it directly in their agreement that legal fees for claims for under 10k can be reimbursed.
The AAA also says who ever wins the claim has the option to seek
All of this sounds good until you take into account the upfront costs you have to bear until you win or lose.
Lets just assume you are making a claim for under $10,000
$725 or $875 Filing Fees
$200-$450 Half a Day Rental Fees for conferance rooms in NY after splitting the cost between both parties. (Obviously your state will be different)
$15 per hour for the average arbitrator after you split the costs. You can hire exactly 1 or 3 arbitrators according to AAA rules.
You have to pay out of pocket for the discovery process and gathering of witnesses for testimonials.
Lawyer fees or lost pay for not going to work because you decided to represent yourself.
This is the minimum you have to put up with and arbitration can take a several months to 3 years to be resolved. Sure they are generally faster than courts but the costs are handled by taxes while you have to pay out of pocket until you win and lose and make some (definitely not most) of your money back.
Essentially just to arbitrate for $500 worth of games you have to file a claim for $9000 so in case you win you actually do get your money back. That is if you win.
With collective arbitration the burden of the initial costs can be easily managed and shared. As a an individual you would be under a lot of stress and pressure.
2)
With collective arbitration we can make better informed negotiation judgements than we ever could as individuals. Dont take my word for it because each person is different but there are going to be people who suck at negotiating terms under arbitration more so than others. At an individual level some people would do fine in arbitration but most wont. The entire is community is enriched for better more than for worse if we collaborate.
3)
Whether you go to court or arbitration the case isnt between you and Gabe. Its between you and Valve the collective might of talented people paid by us for a service and products we admire. To concede the ability to collectively arbitrate is a big mistake when they have more access to resources, people and money than most individuals.
Shouldnt We Sue Valve if They Dont Like Our Contract
Its an option but one Im not really interested in leading. I think it would do a lot more short term harm for Valve and us that I would prefer avoiding. If you feel theres enough to work with for a lawsuit good luck in trying to organize it.
Table of Contents
- A) Valve is Good
- B) Point (2)
- C) Shouldnt We Sue Valve if They Dont Like Our Contract
Valve is Good
I like using Steam, I will eventually continue to use Steam and I like the values Valve tries to live by.
One thing I do like is that Valve is willing to pay up front for any legal fees for claims below $10,000 even if you lose, unless the arbitrator declares your claim as frivilous. Sure a risk exists but it says a lot to me that Valve still values their customers and wants to work with them as best as possible. In my mind Valve is just being misguided in their efforts to protect themselves and just need to be talked with some more.
To further prove my point, Valve in the past prevented banned accounts from accessing their purchases but they changed their stance recently. http://au.pc.gamespy.com/articles/122/1223513p1.html
(Special thanks to SparkTR for the link)
With that said here are some concrete misgivings I have with Valves new EULA.
Point (2)
There a few reasons I think collective arbitration is better than individual.
1)
Valve is putting it directly in their agreement that legal fees for claims for under 10k can be reimbursed.
The AAA also says who ever wins the claim has the option to seek
All of this sounds good until you take into account the upfront costs you have to bear until you win or lose.
Lets just assume you are making a claim for under $10,000
$725 or $875 Filing Fees
$200-$450 Half a Day Rental Fees for conferance rooms in NY after splitting the cost between both parties. (Obviously your state will be different)
$15 per hour for the average arbitrator after you split the costs. You can hire exactly 1 or 3 arbitrators according to AAA rules.
You have to pay out of pocket for the discovery process and gathering of witnesses for testimonials.
Lawyer fees or lost pay for not going to work because you decided to represent yourself.
This is the minimum you have to put up with and arbitration can take a several months to 3 years to be resolved. Sure they are generally faster than courts but the costs are handled by taxes while you have to pay out of pocket until you win and lose and make some (definitely not most) of your money back.
Essentially just to arbitrate for $500 worth of games you have to file a claim for $9000 so in case you win you actually do get your money back. That is if you win.
With collective arbitration the burden of the initial costs can be easily managed and shared. As a an individual you would be under a lot of stress and pressure.
2)
With collective arbitration we can make better informed negotiation judgements than we ever could as individuals. Dont take my word for it because each person is different but there are going to be people who suck at negotiating terms under arbitration more so than others. At an individual level some people would do fine in arbitration but most wont. The entire is community is enriched for better more than for worse if we collaborate.
3)
Whether you go to court or arbitration the case isnt between you and Gabe. Its between you and Valve the collective might of talented people paid by us for a service and products we admire. To concede the ability to collectively arbitrate is a big mistake when they have more access to resources, people and money than most individuals.
Shouldnt We Sue Valve if They Dont Like Our Contract
Its an option but one Im not really interested in leading. I think it would do a lot more short term harm for Valve and us that I would prefer avoiding. If you feel theres enough to work with for a lawsuit good luck in trying to organize it.
NoirVisage
Banned
I see, it makes sense now, that and the fact you REALLY dislike Chris Rock!
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Honestly, I'm not sure I'd pursue the anti-arbitration thing. That's an extremely common thing with just about any service, and it just makes more business sense for Valve to keep it there... or they may even be required to include such a clause to mitigate losses for the purposes of liability insurance.
But I do think the bit about retaining access to the games you've bought makes sense... that's what we're fighting about in here, after all. I think the same should apply both to accounts "cancelled" because the user didn't agree to the terms of the agreement, and accounts that are locked for other reasons, as well.
If you need a bigger platform than GAF, go to Reddit. Lotta uppity people there who are sure to be into this sort of thing.
As far as other alternatives, I can't really think of one that's not going to cost money. We obviously aren't going to start a class action, because that's fucking expensive.
Alright, you're a little mixed up right now. Sure, it's unreasonable for a company to force a pre-service agreement that says you can't form a class action, but it's not unreasonable as far as the court is concerned. Unreasonable terms in a contract basically "give one party an unfair amount of power over the other," such that the court would look at the contract and be like "well... a person wouldn't reasonably agree to this kind of shit if they knew what it really meant." An arbitration agreement like we have here is considered reasonable, because in reality, does it take away much power from the people who agree to it? Well... not really. They still have a means of recourse should shit go sour, even if that means is less than ideal. I don't agree with it, personally, but there you go.
And as far as unconscionability goes in that second paragraph, Gaben committing an act like that wouldn't be unconscionable as far as contract law goes. That wouldn't have anything to do with a problem with the terms of the contract (which is where unconscionability comes up.) If anything, that'd probably fall under the fraud umbrella. For more fun facts about mail and wire fraud, visit 18 USC Section 1341 (and 1343, perhaps), kids!
It does exist for accounts that are locked for other reasons. Valve moved away from completely disabling accounts earlier in the year.
faceless007
Member
I plan to talk to a lawyer about this, but could you elaborate on that? How expensive is it and why is it so prohibitive? I mean if whoever was behind the Netflix privacy one managed to get through then either it's not as bad as it seems or they were seriously wealthy people with nothing else to spend their money on and way too much time on their hands.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Huh, I didn't know that. Well, it's progress!
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Well, most of the lawyer's cut is going to come from the settlement, but the real costs of a class action are in actually creating the class. The biggest problem is that there's a numerocity requirement, as well as one that the "harm" everyone suffered be sufficiently related. The lawsuit against Wal-Mart that failed early this year failed because they had like everybody who thought they were discriminated against by the company bunched into one group, with no specific injury in mind... which naturally, the media interpreted as "THE COURTS HATE BLACK PEOPLE" or some nonsense. Point is, it can actually be kinda tough to do it right.
So how do you find those people to certify as the class? Reddit and GAF aren't enough. You could bug /v/, and that still wouldn't be enough. Spam Gamespot and Gamefaqs, only to realize their forums are the same thing, and then hop over to IGN. Still not enough. Ultimately, you've got to mail out a lot of shit to a lot of people who have used Steam. That requires postage costs, costs of finding out who those people are, etc. Then, if they respond, you've gotta hope to God you get enough responses, have people to sift through everything and verify that any "injury" they suffered is sufficiently related to the others... ultimately, it's a complete fucking nightmare. While class actions theoretically even the playing field between companies and individuals, the sheer amount of bullshit you have to go through basically renders them useless most of the time.
faceless007
Member
So people who don't agree with the new SSA have less rights than users whose accounts are used for fraud. Progress!
Which is why I'm confused why they don't just do that for people who don't want the new TOS. If the support guy just said 'Suspend' instead of 'Disable' they could have avoided this whole mess.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
I'd really just like to complain until they give us a legitimate offline mode.
I enjoy complaining anyway, so it's not much of a problem for me.
I enjoy complaining anyway, so it's not much of a problem for me.
Ideally, the matter of the agreement/disagreement with SSA should be handled automatically, like so:
- Include a checkbox that confirms the user has read it (not that this will make people actually read it, but it helps greatly in preventing the accidental clicking of Agree/Disagree)
- Clicking "Agree" should take you straight into Steam, just as it does now
- Clicking "Disagree" should bring up a warning window informing the user that their account will be in the aforementioned restricted mode until such a time that they accept the new SSA. Again, include a checkbox that indicates a confirmation of understanding
- Those who have initially disagreed but later wish to agree can do so easily, by clicking "Help" and then "Steam Subscriber Agreement" (this menu item already exists), which will allow them to recast their answer. Confirming agreeance results in a Steam restart that restores account functionality
Pureauthor
Member
Hear, hear. Steam's offline mode is a joke.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Yeah, but I'll take what I can get. The important thing here is simply that people are realizing that they don't own shit on Steam, nor is based Gabe actually their friend.
Though I'd bet that technical limitations have played into this as well. Currently in order for an account to be disabled or suspended it has to be handled individually by Steam support. Is implementing a completely new and seperate system for people who click 'Decline' feasible for a TOS update? The Steam development pipeline is already notoriously slow considering how even basic features like download limiters and smooth scrolling aren't present, and things like Categories and Offline mode remain unchanged despite being clunky at best. I like Steam, but at times it's apparent how small a studio Valve really is, they need more staff and flexibility.
The underlying code base may need a bit of an overhaul, sure, but I didn't say it would be easy, just ideal.
Edit: And if Steam Greenlight is any indication, it seems Valve wants to move away, gradually, from the role of dictator and into that of the curator. An automated SSA system fits into that.
faceless007
Member
I'm not trying to argue with you, but how did the class actions I've gotten notices from do this? Not just the Netflix one, but Classmates.com, a Dell suit about defective laptops, another Dell suit about warranties (those were for the same purchase), one about iPod price fixing I just remembered. I don't know how they found me but I got notices about class membership in those before they were even settled. I assumed that the companies scraped their customer records for those who had made the appropriate purchases, in which case, it's their responsibility to identify potential class members.
Legally punishing Steam for this- you're right it is unrealistic.
That said, the folks who are mad, the best solution is to just not support Steam anymore than you have to in future. Given that my issue is more Steam DRM than Steam period, I'm not dumping Steam, just shifting how and what I buy.
You can have a lot of fun with PC gaming without using Steam. yeah, you may not get to play your Skyrims- but there's a lot of indy games really worth playing- some of which aren't even on Steam period.
If Steam didn't have a near-monopolitic market share, fewer games would use mandatory Steamworks DRM.
That said, the folks who are mad, the best solution is to just not support Steam anymore than you have to in future. Given that my issue is more Steam DRM than Steam period, I'm not dumping Steam, just shifting how and what I buy.
You can have a lot of fun with PC gaming without using Steam. yeah, you may not get to play your Skyrims- but there's a lot of indy games really worth playing- some of which aren't even on Steam period.
If Steam didn't have a near-monopolitic market share, fewer games would use mandatory Steamworks DRM.
Treemonkeys
Member
Consumer rights in general seem to just get more and more depressing, Valve is shitty for doing this but they're also kind of lined up with the status quo. I'm sorry but "piracy" really has it's place for consumer rights. I am against IP in general on principle though.
OldJadedGamer
Banned
Click no and you have a major problem.
CrunchyFrog
Member
Right here folks. I admit this whole business is seeming a mite shady, and a word from Gabe himself or the Steam team would do a lot to remedy this. But yeah, if someone really wanted to take them to court on this I have no doubt they would win. And class action suits (while definitely abused by lawyers) are definitely legal. If a company gets to arbitrate as a company with the resources of said company (thus the resources of dozens to hundred to thousands of people) why should plaintiffs filing the same claims not be given the same ability? It's this whole "corporations are people" bullshit argument that's really mucking up the whole situation.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Except the Supreme Court ruled corporations can deny class action lawsuits by an updated TOS. Noone is saying class action lawsuits are illegal, rather corporations can deny their customers the right to create one by including said denial in their TOS.
Whilst I disagree with this type of stance I could see this being a requirement of 3rd party publishers. If you cancel your Steam account do you really expect valve to supply you with cracked .exe's for 3rd party games?
You don't really own your physical games, you own a license to use them. What will happen to games that mandate a 3rd party portal signon and always on DRM, the collapse of those companies would mean you lose access to those games whether they are on steam or not.
Whilst I don't see Valve going anywhere anytime soon I backup my steam folder just in case.
What worries me more is whether or not I will be able to even re-download my Arcade games on the new xbox.
You don't really own your physical games, you own a license to use them. What will happen to games that mandate a 3rd party portal signon and always on DRM, the collapse of those companies would mean you lose access to those games whether they are on steam or not.
Whilst I don't see Valve going anywhere anytime soon I backup my steam folder just in case.
What worries me more is whether or not I will be able to even re-download my Arcade games on the new xbox.
It would be as simple as preventing you from buying titles. Maybe turning off chat and the other social features. Game playing would be unaffected. Not rocket science and no cracked exes needed.
alexandros
Banned
It's not as simple as you describe it. In order to use your already bought Steam games you will have to run Steam, the terms of which you have rejected. This would require a complete seperation of Steam games from the Steam client, ie the ability to start your games without running Steam at all.
Edit: Some more thoughts on the matter. The fact that you can sign away part of your rights in the US is deeply disturbing. Now I understand that corporations in the US have a lot of power and maybe that's one of the reasons for the country's economic might, but consumer rights are equally as important and maybe even more so. People in the US should fight to change this to something similar to EU law where your basic rights can't be forfeited even if you "agree" to it. The issue here isn't with Steam or Valve, it's fundamentaly an issue with the laws of the country.
As long as the law is still in effect, companies have a right to use it and there's no point in arguing otherwise. For each company it's a dilemma between facing a bit of negative PR or leaving the company wide open to a potentially destructive lawsuit. Noone would choose the latter over the former, plus the issue will simply "go away" after a while without actually affecting anyone. Dura lex, sed lex.
I'm hoping we as GAF can make it clearer here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=485446
Not much interest yet.
lol, that's the way I read it too.
Sentenza
Member
As I already said, that would be a goddamn shame, given the other popular options.
Look, I get it, there is this hysterical reaction to the terms of service and all, but I will always pick a game with Steamworks over a game with GFWL, Securom or TAGES, especially if it's an online game and it's going to need integration with online features.
There's only one option I actually prefer to Steam, and mostly for single player games: completely DRM free.
Guess what? You are going to have a damn hard time convincing a publisher to pick this option.
So, godspeed Steamworks, the possibility to buy your Steamworks game in any store on the web and activate all them on the same service and so on.
Account restriction (no purchasing, gifting/trading, or CD key activation) already exists for other cases, such as suspected fraudulent activity and unauthorised access. It would take a little bit of work on Valve's part for the "I disagree" button to result in a restricted account mode, but the underlying support is certainly already there.
alexandros
Banned
Agreed. DRM-free would be fantastic but it's never going to happen. Consoles are even worse because DRM is at a hardware level.
CecilRousso
Member
Nah, that would be the easy way out.
I´m DD only on PC since 2007.
It´s better to learn to deal with the bullshit then just run away everytime it´s get tough.
Yeah, the alternatives would surely be better. Like 2k games before they went Steamworks. Who doesn´t remember the joy of Bioshock 2 with limited activations in both GfWL and Securom, activations that the publisher acknowledged they had no real understanding of. Let´s go back to that instead!
No, but seriously, as said before - petition Valve to change to change this, because it is pretty shitty to include a "agree/exit" dialogue, but don´t forget that Steamworks still is a much better alternative then what the big publishers used to offer, and in several cases still offer. That other kinds of DRM is less "in your face" doesn´t always mean that it´s better.
Exactly, which is why I only buy digital download games that are throwaway cheap. I am not looking forward to the day when everything goes digital download.
Plenty of smaller publishers and devs to pick this option, or a one-time serial activation.
No idea why people keep bringing up this strawman.
No it doesn't. He is saying Steam should keep on authenticating past purchases but you are restricted from doing anything else. It would be understandable if Valve hadn't built Steam to do that but recently they are allowing banned accounts to access their games so the functionality exists.
What they need to do now is revise how the terms of service application works such that if you decline the terms it doesn't deactivated steam but instead put you under ban status.