I notice the same thing when I was reading that post lol.
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vg247-PS4: new kits shipping now, AMD A10 used as base, final version next summer
- Thread starter Globox_82
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I notice the same thing when I was reading that post lol.
Still not happening. The only way for emulation to even have a remote chance in hell occuring is if the PS4 had a Cell processor inside of it or the 1ppu4spu (2 of them).
Yea. some people were saying that the Orbis and Durango would be getting Wii U ports, due to the Wii U being the cheapest platform to develop on. But I doubt devs would gimp their PC ports that much, the Wii U will get its own games like the Wii did. Some games might be made like that though, we did eventually see a few Wii games make its way to PS3/360.
Even if the gap in power isn't as wide next gen, I don't think the PS4/720 will be getting Wii U ports for 2yrs. Maybe if the Wii U is like crazy successful, and greatly exceeds expectations, but I expect a good amount of decent PC ports and multiplatform games.
I'm going to hold on to my dream up until I get the bad news.
in my mind a 1TF APU can split the work of the PPU & SPUs up between the CPU cores & the GPGPU.
& a 2 - 3 TF GPU will make lite work of RSX.
link?
KojiKnight
Member
Honestly, that doesn't tell us much of anything. If the "current gen" versions can reach 30fps, and the only difference for the PS4 version is 60fps and (hopefully) 1080p that would be far from an order of magnitude larger (though it doesn't mean it wouldn't be, only that without context it really only gives us the vague idea that PS4 > PS3 which everyone already assumes)
I don't think you understand the difference between texture resolution and display resolution.
Posts like this make me shake my head.
My initial, and final, reaction is the article is crap/bad speculation.
Well if they could up fidelity and match PC or have 60fps I would think they would match fidelity so the fact that they are aiming for 60fps means good and big things imo. Unless this is just for rock solid 3D performance to which I say boooooo what a waste.
KojiKnight
Member
That's exactly what I mean though, we lack any sort of framing for it. If it's "BF4 will run with all the best PC effects at 1080p at 60FPS compared to the watered down graphics and sub-720p" then by all means that would prove a magnitude leap... but we didn't get that from the rumor.
They're not running the exact same thing, since only PC, PS4, and 720 will support 64-player maps, 360 and PS3 will not according to that rumor.
The way I see it
The APU is just a update to the Cell with the CPU cores replacing the PPU & the GPGPU replacing the SPEs.
ARM /PowerVR SOC will replace the SPE that was locked down for the OS & Security
DSP to make up for all the special Video/Audio task that the Cell was good at.
& the Discrete GPU will be doing what GPUs do.
The APU is just a update to the Cell with the CPU cores replacing the PPU & the GPGPU replacing the SPEs.
ARM /PowerVR SOC will replace the SPE that was locked down for the OS & Security
DSP to make up for all the special Video/Audio task that the Cell was good at.
& the Discrete GPU will be doing what GPUs do.
Proelite
Member
I should sue you for plagiarism.
GoofsterStud
Member
How does this compare to an I7 4.5 ghz with a ati 7970?
Just curious if I need to beef up my machine already for PC ports. The PCish architecture gives me hope for more ports!
Just curious if I need to beef up my machine already for PC ports. The PCish architecture gives me hope for more ports!
The Abominable Snowman
Member
Your i7 kills any CPU AMD will cook up for a while. You might need to upgrade your GPU after a while, but no immediate need.
I don't think it will be that great, but there is absolutely a chance of Nintendo being on the losing end of a huge disparity.
????
I'm just breaking it down from what you said was the specs that you have heard.
but what I said about the APU being the new cell isn't anything that I haven't said before I been talking about the GPGPU replacing the SPEs in the Cell for a while now. I even talked about the GPGPU emulating the SPEs.
Exactly,i think devs will design their engines around 2 very similarly specced platforms rather than 3 where one will be significantly weaker,it isn't the wii->ps3 situation but there still seems to be a sizable gap.
Anyways,the BF4 rumor sounds likely and good.
Considering PC ports run on APU machines @ 480GFLOPs right now, and even BF3 can run on a netbook with 120GFLOPs APU. I am completely baffled by this logic.
Console boxes are always better with performance thanks to being more pure gaming machines and the developers working down to the metal, Wii U should play all PC ports well into the end of 2016 without developers needing to scale back at all (they will be doing it for Intel integrated chips as they try to do now) Even AMD APUs range from 185GFLOPs to 614GFLOPs (Trinity/'A10'), given the standard 30%-40% increase year over year with new GPUs. low end APUs (that run all games of the year they are released) won't hit beyond 600GFLOPs until 2016 (at 40% increase that is ~700GFLOPs for AMD's low end APUs at the constant increase of 40% year over year. BEST CASE)
Architecture is the big reason Wii didn't get ports, but the reason I'm even clarifying this is to point out that a 1TFLOP APU (that doesn't exist and will thus be more expensive to make and run hotter) plus a dedicated GPU /w 2TFLOPs+ doesn't make a lot of sense. Especially when 3D 1080p @60fps is Sony's target, which should be doable with 2GB of RAM, Skyrim for instance is software locked to only use 2GB of system RAM, most PC games are done this way because more doesn't gain in performance.
PS4: $399-499 (low end/high end components, add ~$50 more for SSD)
- APU: 4Core Trinity CPU (4 threads) /w 1.2-1.8TFLOP AMD 'GCN' GPU
- RAM: 4GB of GDDR5/DDR4 or 8GB DDR3 (4GB DDR4 would be faster, though DDR3 would be cheaper)
- Hard Drive: 256GB HDD (SSD would raise the cost a minimum of $100 and benefits over a small onboard flash for OS, is highly debatable.
-No Dedicated GPU, APU unit /w big GPU makes more sense for performance, as GPGPU calculations can easily be handled from the same silicon (no performance increase for using a different piece of silicon)
-Another benefit is that "cross-firing" two GPUs loses a lot of performance, so if developers do not take advantage of the GPGPU, the extra performance is much worse than a single piece of silicon.
-4Core Trinity would likely be clocked at 3.2GHz or higher but thanks to size of 4 cores and the much larger custom GPU, you are looking at 120-160watts for a chip like this built on A10's current approach, this is also best case.
-No Backwards compatibility or at least on par with Xbox360's BC at launch and to grow at a similar pace.
The other rumor floating around on the previous page does read like a pipe dream, it has 8GB ram, but 2GB is super slow mobile ram for mobile games, ram can easily be down clocked or even tricked to perform like mobile ram, so this is a flat out waste of money.
Developers also want unified memory, so VRAM is quickly becoming a thing of the past.
Honestly this would be a solid machine with 2x to 3x the graphics processing of Wii U's "~600GFLOPs" Should easily keep up in a similar way to PS3/360 vs PC and show a noticeable increase in graphics over current gen (~DC to Xbox) and leaving Wii U at a difference similar to PS2 to Xbox (on average, not the few exceptions to this rule)
Sounds delicious.
Your target specs are far too conservative. The current Durango Devkit has a 6950/70 in the system alongside a good chunk of RAM. 695/70 is the target spec. That in and of itself is beast. Sony is behind, and rumored to have a 7970 in the devkit.
The only thing I agree with you is on RAM. To run something like Agnis Philosophy you will need a ton of it.
The Abominable Snowman
Member
I hate how everyone is discounting having a discrete GPU in the PS4. It definitely will. Having an APU splits those compute units between graphical tasks and CPU tasks, so devs would have to choose between having the CPU logic or having graphically impressive games.
The difference in Durango and PS4 seem to be similar to PS3/360, with one system having more focus on the APU and the other on GPU.
I'd be happy if the PS4 had a off the shelf cheap ass A10 (Or a cut down version even) and a decent Southern Island GPU. I'm willing to bet It would be cheaper than the BoM the PS3's and the 360's internals racked up at launch as well.
The difference in Durango and PS4 seem to be similar to PS3/360, with one system having more focus on the APU and the other on GPU.
I'd be happy if the PS4 had a off the shelf cheap ass A10 (Or a cut down version even) and a decent Southern Island GPU. I'm willing to bet It would be cheaper than the BoM the PS3's and the 360's internals racked up at launch as well.
A HD 6950 is 2.2TFLOPs, Sony's original target spec of 1.843TFLOPs is well within that performance marker, especially when you consider the gains of GCN.
Here: http://www.anandtech.com/show/5625/...d-7850-review-rounding-out-southern-islands/5
You can look at those benchmarks, the HD 7850 1.76TFLOPs vs HD 6950 2.2TFLOPs are a dead heat.
numbers here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compar...g_units#Southern_Islands_.28HD_7xxx.29_series
Square Enix themselves have flat out said that Agnis Philosophy will be shown running on "Non-PC" hardware this E3. In order to do that, even at 720p 30 fps, you would need something that could "approximate" a GTX 580 visually.
What z0ml3 is suggesting is something that is flat out anemic for that task.
Shadow of the BEAST
Banned
Cant they just add cell to run the os in the background or something else, maybe like the gba where the z80 did sound. give it another task to enable bc?
How about if Sony plans to include the arm subsystem in their Bravia TVs and bluray players as the backbone of their smart Internet/media platform?
I love the idea of a separate CPU and ram resource for the OS. Get your dirty hands off the game resources. Split ram pools isn't ideal but might just be a practical reality of wanting lots of ram. Mix of small amount of GDDR5 for speed, and DDR3 for work space. That DDR3 would also be a good place for buffering streaming world data
Fingers crossed for 2GB for the GPU. Be a shame to have more ram for the OS than for graphics
Epic took Samaritan from 3 580GTXs to 1 680GTX so the approximate thing is fairly loose.
As I've shown the 1.76TFLOP HD7850 is about equal to the 2.2TFLOPs HD6950.
I won't say that it is impossible for Sony to put a 4.1TFLOPs HD 7970 but even at cost, it's going to be the most expensive thing Sony has ever put into a console. forget cell or bluray.
Also what you are talking about to me is a 2014 console, that does change things, HD7970 performance might be possible from the "HD 9850/70" for instance, also 3D stacking could play a role in 2014 but it's risky for Sony to allow Wii U on the market for the extra year... definitely a toss up, but considering Sony's money situation, a stall to 2014 while their PS3 brings in money and hopefully vita eventually gets off the ground. There could be a smart move here from Sony.
No one is saying a vanilla 7970 or a vanilla 6970 is going into these machines. A 7970, under clocked, cut down, and customized will be the heart of the console. Think parts used in laptops.
Finally, recent evidence has suggested Sony will go with a 20nm process. The 7970 is used as target spec, but I expect something like a 3.0 TF machine. Which would do quite nicely.
The Abominable Snowman
Member
That depends on whether the speed rumors of Southern/Sea Islands is true and it really yields 70% improvement in some cases.
I'm fairly certain the SI rumor is at least in part true.
If that rumour is true, get ready for your eyes to bleed.
Jeff, I, and many other posters have been reiterating Sony push back launching by six months. Microsoft might even join the crowd if yields don't improve. The cost savings, performance boosts, and the extra time could help Sony build a far more sound machine.
DreadPirateRoberts
Member
The PPE is PowerPC based not x86, meaning you have to do full emulation, and unless they can figure out a way to split the emulation of the PPE into more than one thread you're going to be stuck using only one core for that. And you're probably going to run into the same problem with the SPUs. It's not necessarily impossible, but it's way more work than emulation of most systems would be, and backwards compatibility doesn't really seem to be much of a priority for Sony lately.
JohnnySasaki86
Member
Everything looks pretty good imo except a couple points. Based on the info and rumors, PS4 GPU's most likely wont be below 1.8tflops. 2tflops seems like a likely conservative realistic expectation at this point. Also are people still estimating the Wii GPU that high? I thought the consensus was reduced some time ago...
20nm? also about the mobile version of HD7970, what you mean to say is HD7970m, which is pitcairn OR HD7800 desktop variant, which is what I've been saying here...
The HD7970m btw is a 2.2TFLOPs GPU. The problem with getting sources is that you don't know what they know. An artist or even some programmers might overlook that the HD7970m is nothing like the HD7970, it's in fact quite frankly an HD7800 series chip, not even matching the HD7870 (2.6TFLOPs)
A 1.843TFLOPs GPU from the original target specs, I could easily see climbing to a 2.2TFLOPs chip, especially if the original target specs was APU+GPU and they are going with a more powerful and cheaper single piece of silicon (APU) with this chip on there.
If this mobile business is the case, it falls in line with my estimation above rather well... The CPU you did agree with right? I mean current rumors point right at the A10 as the CPU correct?
BG expected the Wii U GPU to be a bit north of 600GFLOPs just a couple weeks ago.
Also as I point out above, the 1.843TFLOPs from the original "confirmed" target specs could climb up if using the HD7970m part, instead of the custom HD 7000 series chip they were originally using.
The only yield rumour from Microsoft I saw was for the original pressing and that's always going to have a terrible yield.
So I'm assuming Microsoft are well on track to launch "Novemberish" next year.
DreadPirateRoberts
Member
So that'd be The 7970 and the GPU side of the A10 clocked at around 700MHz right? That might be doable at 20nm
Yes I agree with the A10, the GPU we have our differences on. Overall, I think the system will be somewhere in the 3.2 TF range when you take APU + Discrete GPU together.
nelsonroyale
Member
Hopefully it isnt too weak. Anyway, I think power is important for home console gaming.
So, whats the benefit of a really big APU GPU and a separate dedicated GPU? it's much more expensive and much hotter, so where is the big benefit of a 1TFLOP GPU duct taped to the already hot CPU.
At most, I could see them using the 7660D (614GFLOPs) it's still pointless, but at least they don't have to use a customized chip design (no AMD APU is anywhere near that big or fast)
That leaves it with the 2.2TFLOPs HD7970m combined with the 614GFLOPs APU (losing at least 10% performance with crossfire) meaning 2.8TFLOPs or 2.5TFLOPs effective.
Crossfire on PC doesn't work the way it should because developer's don't take advantage of it. In this configuration, devs would have the perfect opportunity to code for both GPU's. I don't want to spin numbers all day, but 2.8 teraflops is dangerously close to 3.0 like I have hoped fo.
The more important issue is what performance can be had at a 20nm process from AMD. Waiting one more year will be awesome for the GPU, but it spells pure-pure-pure win for the RAM situation.
There will always be leaking with crossfire, what you are talking about just isn't possible. It's not a matter of software, it's a matter of not having all of the physical hardware in one spot, so the speed of memory and buffers becomes a bottleneck.
1 GPU silicon is more powerful, has all the benefits of the split set up minus power consumption of turning off the big GPU. Also it is easier to code for because with dual GPU set ups, you have to split the work amount 2 GPUs, and this becomes much less effective when the GPUs are not the same... meaning my number was optimistic.
Honestly I don't understand the 3TFLOPs target hope you have? it's just an arbitrary number as far as I can deduce...
The 2.5 Teraflop number will allow Unreal Engine 4 to run at 1080p. Giving some overhead to developers at 3.0 TF should yield some awesome results. If these consoles come with the beast configurations we are hoping for, Durango and Orbis will truly melt our eyes.
iceatcs
Junior Member
Don't forget MS keep changing the chip plan. We was heard the rumour of IBM 16 cores, then ARM. And sudden we have AMD rumours on both consoles. I dunno if it will affect the timing to release.
Just hope it didn't cause anything on their developers, otherwise we might have poorer launch titles, if they keep on release target.
Canis lupus
Member
^I don't think they'd ever use ARM mobile processor in a console.
These things will probably be on 24/7, so a low power mode will be useful