Support NeoGAF

[OldJadedGamer]

A friend asked me once why it is not legal to download TV shows even though they were broadcast over the air. Also, he owns cable and pays for HBO but missed one episode of Game of Thrones and couldn't find it anywhere so he downloaded it. He paid for it and didn't get around any DRM so why was it wrong?

There are tons of grey areas with downloading this kind of stuff but yeah, as others have mentioned, the DRM is what gets you in the legal/illegal route.

 

[Diprosalic]

Many friends of mine do this for imported games. They buy it online and then download it to play it right away instead of having to wait 2-3 weeks till they arrive. And as soon as they do they probably have finished it already and the game goes unused in to the shelf.

It might be illigal but it's hard to blame them for this.

 

[Despera]

Many friends of mine do this for imported games. They buy it online and then download it to play it right away instead of having to wait 2-3 weeks till they arrive. And as soon as they do they probably have finished it already and the game goes unused in to the shelf.

It might be illigal but it's hard to blame them for this.

If they end up selling it on ebay as a sealed/new copy, then it's definitely immoral and illegal at the same time.

Besides, playing a downloaded copy without unboxing the game is kind of a shady act.

 

[Burekma]

The morality aspect is pretty much subjective, and largely depends on what someone perceives as good and bad, right and wrong. There are way too many cultural, religious and educational differences around the world for there to be a "correct" answer. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with it, so I have no moral objections.

Legality on the other hand, depends solely on the country you live in. I obviously don't know every country's law, but if I had to guess, it's illegal in most countries. The only countries I have doubts about are certain third world Asian and African ones. It could very well be they don't have any laws regarding software copyrights.

 

[Pilgor]

It's illegal under DMCA § 1201(a)(1)(A).

Space shifting isn't the issue here, the DRM on the disc is the problem.

 

[Diprosalic]

If they end up selling it on ebay as a sealed/new copy, then it's definitely immoral and illegal at the same time.

Besides, playing a downloaded copy without unboxing the game is kind of a shady act.

They never do. Not a huge market for japanese games around here. It's not that they do this (collecting sealed games) on purpose it's just a byproduct.

 

[ymmv]

Nothing piracy is legal.

Hm. I bought a legit copy of Assassin's Creed 2 for the PC, but I couldn't finish the install because the original DVD had a read error. I downloaded an ISO of the game DVD on the Internet so I could finish the setup and then used my license code to activate the game.

So I was a pirate for trying to work around a faulty DVD?

 

[freddy]

It's illegal under DMCA § 1201(a)(1)(A).

Space shifting isn't the issue here, the DRM on the disc is the problem.

Dude, I'm just dragging and dropping files and programs into random open windows on my screen. I thought it was all a game. I thought the game opening up without Windows Live loading and reaming me in the backside for trying to save my game was just the publisher being nice to me for once.

 

[Aquamarine]

Illegal, because you're violating copyright law by pirating it, but not amoral, because you are harming nobody and not acting against the underlying purpose of copyright law. You've compensated the developer by purchasing the game, so there is no de facto difference between you playing the legitimate copy or a pirated one, even if there is a de jure difference. Retaining resale value is bringing no harm to the developers or owners of the IP, and seems to be a distraction from the underlying issue being discussed. If we remove this from the scenario, and say "is it OK to download a pirated version of a game I already own for convenience sake", we get more clearly to the crux of the issue.

Exactly, because if they don't take a hard stance on the issue and instead allowed exceptions, it would create a slippery slope argument and publishers would quickly lose control over the situation.

"If X bought a game new and was allowed to pirate it, why can't I buy it used and pirate it?"

"If developer Y is no longer making money off of it, and it's okay to pirate games under certain circumstances, why can't I just pirate it?"

No person who bought a game legally should be punished for pirating that game, and very few people are punished for piracy in general. If it's not actively being enforced, I question its illegality more than say... shoplifting or burglary.

 

[Despera]

Hm. I bought a legit copy of Assassin's Creed 2 for the PC, but I couldn't finish the install because the original DVD had a read error. I downloaded an ISO of the game DVD on the Internet so I could finish the setup and then used my license code to activate the game.

So I was a pirate for trying to work around a faulty DVD?

This is a case where I think it's perfectly legit.

Illegal, but nothing immoral about it.

 

[Septimius]

Illegal, because you're violating copyright law by pirating it, but not amoral, because you are harming nobody and not acting against the underlying purpose of copyright law. You've compensated the developer by purchasing the game, so there is no de facto difference between you playing the legitimate copy or a pirated one, even if there is a de jure difference. Retaining resale value is bringing no harm to the developers or owners of the IP, and seems to be a distraction from the underlying issue being discussed. If we remove this from the scenario, and say "is it OK to download a pirated version of a game I already own for convenience sake", we get more clearly to the crux of the issue.

I think the interesting point here is the morality. The legality is in such grey, boring shades that it's really only up to finding the right court-case to say if this is legal or not. My understanding of things is that you're allowed to have a backup of your game.

So let's focus on that. I know that in my country, it's only illegal to upload copy-righted material. This means that downloading the game in itself is not illegal - don't know if this is the case for the US. So, let's assume it's legal to download a game to back it up when you own it. A good example here is Wii-games. Say I want to have a backup of Xenoblade on a harddrive. I can't rip my own game, since my DVD-drive can't read Wii-discs. So I download it, and use the rip instead. Should I then be able to take a "back up" if my disc has already been destroyed? Say I own the game, but I come home and step on it. Bah! I should've backed up up yesterday. The internet to the rescue. Should be OK, right? I still own the license to the things on the disc, and it's just the disc itself that's been damaged. In that case, it's OK to download a game you can't access.

In this case, the sealed case is preventing OP from accessing the disc, but he still owns it. Depending on how we view the previous paragraph, it's legal to download a copy of a game he owns but cannot access.

And that's not immoral, either. How about, then, when the OP does it to sit on it for years, so it becomes valuable, then sell it as a sealed copy, whereas someone else who did not do this morally bending backwards has to buy two copies - one to play, and one to keep for collector's value. You've cut the corner on the whole thing making those copies worth money. It's the fact that they've never been played. Say the next Xbox came out, and it could read discs through the case. You'd never have to break the seal of another case, and the value would just disappear.

In that, I think there's a display of immorality. It's a cheaters way of having an unopened game. Unopened implies "hasn't been played" - but clearly the license has been played, since it's that license that you justify the downloading with. It's like a virgin having been a phone-sex operator for years. He/she's technically still a virgin, but what the fuck.

It's immoral to resell it later, because you're implying it has a value of never having been used, while it still served its purpose to allow you to play. Until the rest of the collector's market catches on, it's really only scamming collectors, by not having to put up the same value as others selling the game "morally".

It's highly debatable, and this is way too loosely written. But the core is there - and some moral relativist out there can probably put it to better terms than I did.

 

[mclem]

Retaining resale value is bringing no harm to the developers or owners of the IP, and seems to be a distraction from the underlying issue being discussed.

What about the logical (if extreme) conclusion to that argument that therefore a shop owner is perfectly morally permitted to play pirated copies of any of his stock for as long as they are in stock?

 

[blizzardjesus]

Sometimes I buy 2 copies of a game and don't open neither.

 

[Zoe]

They never do. Not a huge market for japanese games around here. It's not that they do this (collecting sealed games) on purpose it's just a byproduct.

And that's the difference. The OP wants to do this deliberately.

 

[pwack]

Hm. I bought a legit copy of Assassin's Creed 2 for the PC, but I couldn't finish the install because the original DVD had a read error. I downloaded an ISO of the game DVD on the Internet so I could finish the setup and then used my license code to activate the game.

So I was a pirate for trying to work around a faulty DVD?

Of course you are. The legal option is to return the disc and get a new one. Not to crack DRM (or have others crack it) and download a copy as you see fit.

That's like saying "my new Honda civic broke down under warranty; it's a lemon. Rather than take it back in to the dealer for repair, I just stole a new one."

 

[Barack Lesnar]

Of course you are. The legal option is to return the disc and get a new one. Not to crack DRM (or have others crack it) and download a copy as you see fit.

That's like saying "my new Honda civic broke down under warranty; it's a lemon. Rather than take it back in to the dealer for repair, I just stole a new one."

I see your point but I just don't think it applies in that extreme comparison.

 

[Tears For Fears]

Why is this a topic, and why did you post this on GAF of all places?

 

[blizzardjesus]

Of course you are. The legal option is to return the disc and get a new one. Not to crack DRM (or have others crack it) and download a copy as you see fit.

When I worked at Game Stop we had to refuse to exchange/return opened PC games, regardless of reason, unless the disk had physical damage like a crack or gouge.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

I don't see this as tricky or confusing. The end result is you have 2 copies of the game, one you aren't playing, one you haven't paid for. You are still committing a crime. The neutral moral balance of this is almost an affectation, nothing but arithmetic.

Actually I guess if publishers still think used game sales are stealing, if you sold the unopened copy, you'd have stolen twice.

 

[pwack]

I see your point but I just don't think it applies in that extreme comparison.

Its an extreme comparison, but valid. We buy our games with a warranty, either express or implied, of merchantabiilty, meaning that we can expect the game to physically work. If the game doesn't, our recourse is to go back to the publisher or the store that sold it to us and get a replacement or refund. We don't get to say, "Well, screw the DMCA! I'm just gonna go ahead and download an ISO! Waiting in line at Best Buy for a return/refund is only for suckers who aren't me!"

Not hear to say what is or is not moral, just legal.

When I worked at Game Stop we had to refuse to exchange/return opened PC games, regardless of reason, unless the disk had physical damage like a crack or gouge.

In that case, they can still go back to the publisher.

 

[Majmun]

Someone should open the same thread. But now it must be about Anime, Porn, Movies, or Music.

To answer your question: No, as long as you bought the original and don't plan to sell the copy, It's ok.

 

[crpav]

Why must you post such a gif which makes me derail this thread and ask who is that and where is it from?

 

[AmaterasuOkami076]

I live in PALland. If I bought a JRPG from the PS1 era from the US via eBay that never saw a release here, my PS1 still wouldn't play it due to region locking. With the copy in hand, would it then be okay for me to emulate it by downloading it from the internet?

 

[ruttyboy]

Of course you are. The legal option is to return the disc and get a new one. Not to crack DRM (or have others crack it) and download a copy as you see fit.

That's like saying "my new Honda civic broke down under warranty; it's a lemon. Rather than take it back in to the dealer for repair, I just stole a new one."

Except it's nothing like that, it's more like, "my new Honda civic broke down under warranty; it's a lemon. Rather than take it back in to the dealer for repair, I just manufactured a new one."

 

[ruttyboy]

I don't see this as tricky or confusing. The end result is you have 2 copies of the game, one you aren't playing, one you haven't paid for. You are still committing a crime. The neutral moral balance of this is almost an affectation, nothing but arithmetic.

Actually I guess if publishers still think used game sales are stealing, if you sold the unopened copy, you'd have stolen twice.

Well that's the thing publishers want to have it both ways, either we are buying a licence to use data, and so it's irrelevant how the data is sourced so long as you have the licence, or we wholly own that physical copy of the game in which case their arguments against second hand sales and unlocking on disc DLC are moot.

They can't have it both ways, although I wouldn't put it past governments letting them have it.

Edit: apologies for double post, I assumed someone else would have posted by now...

 

[PjotrStroganov]

What about the logical (if extreme) conclusion to that argument that therefore a shop owner is perfectly morally permitted to play pirated copies of any of his stock for as long as they are in stock?

Is a shop owner the owner of the games or is the shop the owner? Besides that, when you compare the amount of shop owners to the total amount of gamers, it doesn't really matter in the end.

 

[Zoe]

Well that's the thing publishers want to have it both ways, either we are buying a licence to use data, and so it's irrelevant how the data is sourced so long as you have the licence, or we wholly own that physical copy of the game in which case their arguments against second hand sales and unlocking on disc DLC are moot.

They can't have it both ways, although I wouldn't put it past governments letting them have it.

Edit: apologies for double post, I assumed someone else would have posted by now...

We're talking about more than just the data in this case though. The OP is giving value to the rest of the package as well.

 

[BeesEight]

A small example, say you are hyped for a game and buy it on hype because you're naive and ignorant and can't make up your own mind on which games to buy. You purchase AAA game for 60 and are having second thoughts. You then decide to pirate the game because you want to try it and really see if you like it and your money was well spent. You end up beating the game and seeing it as a value proposition but ultimately end up returning it for a full refund. Or you sell the sealed copy for 15-20% off retail and make a little bit out of it. Now that you legally don't own the game, will you be honest enough to delete your pirated copy? Or even for the sake of adding more, you simply don't like the game and take it back for full refund. The intent of piracy is still the same at the core. Do not use it as a springboard to make the reasoning of doing it in any way valid.

I'm curious about this example. Say you do the exact same thing but instead of downloading a copy to try it out you instead borrow from your friend. Is this still illegal?

 

[ruttyboy]

We're talking about more than just the data in this case though. The OP is giving value to the rest of the package as well.

Well, the (collectors) market is giving value to it because it arbitrarily deems items that are physically 'as new' to be more valuable, however if it is simply a license agreement to access the data and he has paid for a license then it is irrelevant.

In the case of the halfway house where the holder of the license is determined by who owns the physical copy of the game then he would not be able to play the game once he has sold it (and consequently transferred the license), but then the publisher should also not be able to complain about used sales. Or alternatively he can continue to play the (digital copy of the) game as he holds the license but the new owner of the physical copy is not entitled to play it as the license wasn't transferred.

 

[Shambles]

Legal? Depends where you live.
Moral? Yes.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

Of course you are. The legal option is to return the disc and get a new one. Not to crack DRM (or have others crack it) and download a copy as you see fit.

That's like saying "my new Honda civic broke down under warranty; it's a lemon. Rather than take it back in to the dealer for repair, I just stole a new one."

When you steal a car you take away that car from the original owner. Downloading something is making a copy of the original. If your car is a lemon and asked me if you could make a copy of my car for free so you could drive I would say go for it as I still get to keep my original car.

Let me leave this here:

 

[Chinner]

ive downloaded my copy of gafs database and do most of my posting offline fyi.

 

[RealDeadOne]

It's absolutely illegal.

Whether or not it's moral can only come from you, though. But then, there are people who twist their logic enough to think piracy itself is moral, too, so just consider that.

 

[Aquamarine]

I'm curious about this example. Say you do the exact same thing but instead of downloading a copy to try it out you instead borrow from your friend. Is this still illegal?

Well, let's take this step by step.

1. You buy the game new for $60 (give $60 to the developer / publisher, legal and moral)

2. Instead of opening the game, you borrow it from your friend (legal, potentially immoral)

3. You beat the game you borrowed from your friend (legal, potentially immoral)

4. You sell / return the unopened copy of the original game (legal, immoral)


All of those are technically legal because you don't touch piracy in any respect. But that doesn't mean it's a moral thing to do.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

I'm curious about this example. Say you do the exact same thing but instead of downloading a copy to try it out you instead borrow from your friend. Is this still illegal?

If you don't download a pirated copy from a web site then I see nothing wrong with lending your honest purchase. I think you can do this on PC but your friend has to give you his credentials to something like Steam of just the game key. And in the modern day, sites like GOG offer DRM free alternatives. I had a friend on Steam offer me the Hotline Miami exe from GOG to try it out. I declined because I don't know if I'd play it much at this time but that's something of another grey area.

But what you're saying is borrowing a legitimately purchased copy of Call of Duty Black Ops (for example) is perfectly within the lines of being ok. I don't see the benefits of downloading a game like Black Ops since it's basically a multiplayer game that you will not be able to play with your friend which owns a legit copy.

Response above me, good point. It's not necessarily illegal but at the same time, you can alleviate this in 2 ways (for example). Either go in 50/50 with your friend and coordinate a purchase. Or just don't buy the game knowing your friend will and vicariously experience the game at his expense

 

[Twiccan]

op, don't let other peoples moral compass guide you.


on the other hand, what you are suggesting is pretty fucking stupid/legally dubious. Just buy 2 copies.

You are confused. Legally dubious, yes of course it is. But how exactly is it stupid?

 

[Weltall Zero]

Well, let's take this step by step.

1. You buy the game new for $60 (give $60 to the developer / publisher, legal and moral)

2. Instead of opening the game, you borrow it from your friend (legal, potentially immoral)

3. You beat the game you borrowed from your friend (legal, potentially immoral)

4. You sell / return the unopened copy of the original game (legal, immoral)


All of those are technically legal because you don't touch piracy in any respect. But that doesn't mean it's a moral thing to do.

This makes no sense and goes on to show how companies have managed to condition their customers to think anything that goes against their interests is immoral. I want with abated breath how borrowing something from a friend (point 2), making use of said something (point 3) or reselling a good I legally purchased (point 4) is in any way immoral. Are you ready to apply that logic to anything else? Is it immoral to borrow a friend's car? To sell my books? Please.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

Well, let's take this step by step.

1. You buy the game new for $60 (give $60 to the developer / publisher, legal and moral)

2. Instead of opening the game, you borrow it from your friend (legal, potentially immoral)

3. You beat the game you borrowed from your friend (legal, potentially immoral)

4. You sell / return the unopened copy of the original game (legal, immoral)


All of those are technically legal because you don't touch piracy in any respect. But that doesn't mean it's a moral thing to do.

I don't know if I agree with any of this. But maybe it's the subjective nature of what is "moral" that's to blame.

I think technically borrowing something from a friend would be illegal. It's just not piracy because you're using a legal original copy without paying for it.

 

[HarryHengst]

It depends on where you live i guess? Here in the Netherlands it is legal to download (not upload) software, so, yes, you would be legal by doing that. Moral? Eh, thats up to the individual.

 

[GoofsterStud]

When you steal a car you take away that car from the original owner. Downloading something is making a copy of the original. If your car is a lemon and asked me if you could make a copy of my car for free so you could drive I would say go for it as I still get to keep my original car.

Let me leave this here:

Yeah I just download some DLC for a racing game. The car is sweet!

 

[dose]

Why is this a topic, and why did you post this on GAF of all places?

Because it's interesting, and this is a games forum?

 

[Jack_AG]

Also, not something I plan on doing I should probably point out.

Sounds legit.

 

[RedSwirl]

It makes less sense for a console game but I've considered doing it for PC games in the past just to get around terrible DRM. If there's a game that I deem good enough to buy but has shitty DRM, I could see buying a legal copy and then either pirating a DRM-less copy, or cracking the DRM off of my legal copy. I'm actually not sure if the latter is illegal, but it's probably against the warranty on the game itself.

 

[Aquamarine]

This makes no sense and goes on to show how companies have managed to condition their customers to think anything that goes against their interests is immoral. I want with abated breath how borrowing something from a friend (point 2), making use of said something (point 3) or reselling a good I legally purchased (point 4) is in any way immoral. Are you ready to apply that logic to anything else? Is it immoral to borrow a friend's car? To sell my books? Please.

I'm not looking at this from the side of the consumer...I'm trying to take an objective stance here. If you're going to just borrow the game in the first place, why even bother buying (and then returning) it?

It doesn't seem like the right thing to do. Either you borrow the game from a friend in the first place, or you buy and open and play your product. But putting the two together seems like you're taking advantage of the system.

 

[Snakeyes]

What if you prefer to carry all your handheld games with your device as backups while leaving the actual carts/UMDs at home?

 

[Bentendo]

Not legal at all, no. I wouldn't particularly care if someone did this, but don't ever be under the impression that you're doing something that can't get you into some trouble, because you can.

Morally, I personally wouldn't do this (why would I really?), but I don't see anything wrong with it. If someone told me they do this I may raise an eyebrow but wouldn't think negatively on them or anything like I would if they told me they steal games.

Some things to note though:

-You would probably be crossing the line if you, say, bought a game for a certain system and then pirated it on another. That IS taking money away from the platform holder and is potentially harming them if a large number of people do this for not only monetary reasons but attachment rate reasons as well.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

I don't know if I agree with any of this. But maybe it's the subjective nature of what is "moral" that's to blame.

I think technically borrowing something from a friend would also be illegal. It's just not piracy because you're using a legal original copy without paying for it.

To borrow your game, toaster, car, or your underwear is not illegal in my eyes. It's all subjective and for the sake of debate, I like this conversation.

We're talking about about the main differences here between resorting to downloading a copy of a game and just me borrowing you a game because you want to try it. I'm essentially renting it to you for free.

And someone please tell me that I'm not the only one who basically exchanged a game whenever I borrowed mine (when I was younger, I don't borrow my games anymore except on special occasion)? I learned a lesson when I lent my copy of Soul Blade to this Chinese friend of mine (who happened to be in the Wa Ching (misspelled?) gang). I should have know but we got along and he basically funnily played it off because he knew he had his friends to back him up in case things escalated over this insignificant game. I dropped it because the game was cheap but felt like an idiot because he used the excuse of knowing my brother to sort of befriend me. Lesson learned.

I then lent a copy of Crono Cross to a friend and he returned it BUT without the manual. I trusted this guy with any game and I actually just lent it to him because he was poor and we were good friends. To this day I have my retail copy of Crono Cross minus the manual. That stings.

If I were to do this in this current day I would have to trust you enough to lend it to you. And as of today, I don't have a ton of people asking me to borrow a game nor would I likely consider it. But when I was younger, I would usually do an exchange.

 

[Jack_AG]

I don't know if I agree with any of this. But maybe it's the subjective nature of what is "moral" that's to blame.

I think technically borrowing something from a friend would be illegal. It's just not piracy because you're using a legal original copy without paying for it.

Borrowing a physical disk removes the owner's ability to access/use content on that disk. Only 1 individual can hold on to that disk at a time. While the borrower has the disk the owner becomes deprived. The disk still remains in the hands of a single user. I don't see an issue with this.

 

[Aquamarine]

To borrow your game, toaster, car, or your underwear is not illegal in my eyes. It's all subjective and for the sake of debate, I like this conversation.

We're talking about about the main differences here between resorting to downloading a copy of a game and just me borrowing you a game because you want to try it. I'm essentially renting it to you for free.

And someone please tell me that I'm not the only one who basically exchanged a game whenever I borrowed mine (when I was younger, I don't borrow my games anymore except on special occasion)? I learned a lesson when I lent my copy of Soul Blade to this Chinese friend of mine (who happened to be in the Wa Ching (misspelled?) gang). I should have know but we got along and he basically funnily played it off because he knew he had his friends to back him up in case things escalated over this insignificant game. I dropped it because the game was cheap but felt like an idiot because he used the excuse of knowing my brother to sort of befriend me. Lesson learned.

I then lent a copy of Crono Cross to a friend and he returned it BUT without the manual. I trusted this guy with any game and I actually just lent it to him because he was poor and we were good friends. To this day I have my retail copy of Crono Cross minus the manual. That stings.

If I were to do this in this current day I would have to trust you enough to lend it to you. And as of today, I don't have a ton of people asking me to borrow a game nor would I likely consider it. But when I was younger, I would usually do an exchange.

I think there's nothing wrong with lending a game to your friend. But when you lend a copy of a game to a friend AND they have purchased the game through retail but haven't opened it...that's when it starts to get a bit fishy.

In contrast, downloading illegally ripped and cracked ROMs / ISOs of games is illegal no matter the circumstance.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Its illegal for sure but I dont see anything immoral about downloading a game you already paid money for.

I downloaded a Pokemon Red emulator because I wanted to play it again but I couldnt find my GBC at the time. I knew it never left my room and found it later, so I wasnt going to go to ebay and rebuy another GBC and wait for them to ship it just so I could scratch my nostalgia itch. The developers are still getting the guys money, what does it matter if he wants it to stay pristine and still play the game?