The law allows you to create a backup of your content. Downloading one isn't creating it yourself.
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Is it legal and/or moral to buy games and then pirate them without ever opening them?
- Thread starter Alo81
- Start date
The law allows you to create a backup of your content. Downloading one isn't creating it yourself.
Thanks guys. Was curious how the law was established in America for lending physical copies.
thekonamicode
Member
You and I think alike.
Would you prefer another list thread?
The question is -- is it legal? The answer is no. There really isn't a debate here. You are trying to rationalize the situation. Your rationalization could be correct or even moral, but its still not legal.
Downloading something is making a copy of the original illegally and then using it, again illegally. Whether or not the original is left in the possession of the publisher or not is relevant to the legal question. A publisher has the property rights in their IP, and under the law, we are compelled to respect those the same as any other property rights, whether the property is tangible or not.
How about this extreme comparison (cause these ridiculous arguments are fun) transmuting the question from intangible to tangible property right -- I break into your house and sleep in your bed when you are not there, without causing any damage to your property whatsover. Are you still pissed that I broke in and used your bed, or is it cool, because your house and bed are still there intact? What if I steel your car and drive it around all night, but then put it right back where it was (and refill it with gas)? No harm, no foul? Or have I interfered with your property?
GoofsterStud
Member
There was a court cased that stated Downloading content was the same as Creating a Backup.
Now to pull up that case. >.> I read it on ign a few years back. So I don't know if the downloading portion had specifications. Still since it was previously ruled, doesn't that make it legal if used again. Things like downloading the file from the companies website because your physical copy was cracked, are not illegal either.
What about when Steam sells products that don't work without having to work any wizardry (ex: Thief 2, Sega Classics, Stranger's Wrath)?
what if i downloaded a rom of phantasy star 4 and ran it through an emulator because steam didn't doesn't have a proper executable
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
.Ronito said:
He's rationalizing it because the two cases are distinct and should not be grouped together, not in order to pretend it isn't illegal.
In both your examples there would be damages incurred by the victim (cleaning charges for the bed, deterioration of the car through mileage and psychological damage in both cases) so it doesn't work. Do publishers feel 'violated' when someone downloads a game illegally?
People can't possibly believe this can they? What sad corporate pets we've turned into.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
Your first paragraph, you mean a game you buy from Steam that doesn't work WITHOUT having to use any workarounds? Maybe you have your words mixed up but do you mean buying a game on Steam that is broken enough for you and your OS that you have to find fixes just to get it to work? If that's the case, Psychonauts is that game for me. I can't get it to work for the life of me on Windows 7x64. I've read and read and read and tried so many things. I want to play it desperately too but damn if I can't
Your 2nd point, I'm not sure how the Sega classics work when bought via Steam but you bought PS4 on Steam then play it on Steam. Why would you buy it on Steam if you didn't want to play it? Or are you saying that the exe/game via Steam is giving you fits? I'm trying to figure our your point at the core since I sort of left conflicted on what your trying to say.
Yes. Yes they do.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
Is this from this thread? News to me. I want to be clear and say I've not come to Ronito and done one of those anonymous confessions in that thread in the OT. So bringing that up is in parallel but is also neither here or there. We're not out here to go on witch hunt so let's just keep it as concise to the points in the OP as we can. I don't want to branch out too far from that but it would be a good separate discussion but not for the reasons of looking to go on a hunt for those who have downloaded illegal copies of a game.
And why shouldn't they? Real people spent countless hours to craft that game. It's no different that a food maker making hamburger patties only to have someone steal them under their coat at the store or even hijack the delivery truck to the store. Probably not my best example but the main point is your circumventing the means of legally/honestly buying something to get an upper hand over everyone else who pays the price. These are rules that are set in place for reasons. Maybe not all of them are the right reasons but they are in place for reasons.
test_account
XP-39C²
Yeah, most likely not legal in most countries. But if you already own the original, another copy would just be like a backup, i see nothing wrong with that.
Play it on a virtual machine. I run a lot of older games on an XP or even Win 95 install.
Ok, let me relate a situation where someone would have to consider OP's question:
Recently a copy of the European release of Kizuna Encounter for the Neo Geo home system was privately sold on neo-geo.com. If you didn't know, the last time this game's sale price was publicized it exceeded $10,000. Obviously any dump you didn't perform yourself is illegal to own, but would this person be morally wrong for playing the ROM due to not wanting to get a fingerprint on this game, let alone the potential insertion marks from putting this game into a neo geo home system?
Morally, I think he's in his rights...though another solution might be a dedicated Neo Geo AES with the top removed to protect the cart while playing.
Recently a copy of the European release of Kizuna Encounter for the Neo Geo home system was privately sold on neo-geo.com. If you didn't know, the last time this game's sale price was publicized it exceeded $10,000. Obviously any dump you didn't perform yourself is illegal to own, but would this person be morally wrong for playing the ROM due to not wanting to get a fingerprint on this game, let alone the potential insertion marks from putting this game into a neo geo home system?
Morally, I think he's in his rights...though another solution might be a dedicated Neo Geo AES with the top removed to protect the cart while playing.
metareferential
Member
The only solution to this is buying two copies of the game.
You can't be cool and cheap at the same time. xD
You can't be cool and cheap at the same time. xD
I see no problem in "pirating" games you already own, and there are scenarios in which it's advantageous, like further portability with handhelds, or improved visuals through emulation. If this is morally abhorrent to you based on the legalities in a given jurisdiction, regardless of the fact that developers are still getting paid for their work, then you probably need to reflect on why your need for conformity trumps your need for reason.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Fair enough, and I would agree, I'm just wondering whether technically this falls under the first sale doctrine anymore. I'm talking about the Vernor v. Autodesk thing.
What is the difference between selling a used game to Gamestop for 15 dollars versus say selling the sealed original for 200-1000 dollars?
You still played the content with both cases(external copy for playback on the sealed version), and getting a tangible reward for the resale.
You still played the content with both cases(external copy for playback on the sealed version), and getting a tangible reward for the resale.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
You mean in compatibility mode via Windows 7? I'm just curious because I think I've tried XP compat (maybe since it's been so long since I messed with it). I would be willing to go back and retry something else if that's the case.
ihearthawthats
Banned
as long as you don't resell it, i wouldn't consider it immoral. but honestly, just learn to take better care of your discs. i rarely get scratches and freak out at even the slightest scratch. it honestly baffles me when i see a terribly scratched disc. do people use them as coasters or something?
Firstly, I think you're talking about developers, not publishers.
Secondly, again the example given for comparison is nonsense as it involves actual physical loss by the victim.
Thirdly, home-time for me!
Zoe
Member
In the latter, you're profiting off of using illegal means to play your game.
Zoe
Member
Ownership? No. Use? Yes.
No, I play them on Virtual Box. It's free and works. Just make sure to allocate at least 1 gig of Ram for a game like Psychonauts and the full 128mb of vRam for 3d acceleration(Textures are all passed onto the card so it's not as bad as it sounds). Of course you'd need a copy of XP to install onto it as well. Microsoft allows downloads of their OSes though as long as you have a key.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
Yes, thanks for correcting that. I put so much thought or at least have some investment in this conversation and some details aren't as clear sometimes but you're right.
Now go home!
Hmm, will look into this later if possible.
Palette Swap
Member
Serious question: what "hurts" publishers more, this or buying used games?
Why the fuck would you thread whine, particularly after 200+ posts?
Zoe
Member
ihearthawthats
Banned
you're selling a new game that's been "unused". yet you did infact play it, so by right you should only be able to sell it as a used game.
but honestly, it's just shady. it sounds like you're buying the game solely for the purpose of an investment to make money, rather than to actually play and enjoy the game.
jimmypython
Member
I think it is ok if you rip the ISO from your own copy..
Littlegator
Banned
It's illegal to acquire a ROM/ISO/whatever of any modern game in any way.
However, it's absolutely moral. After all, you're not purchasing the game. You're purchasing a license to play it. If you have a pirated copy, you still have the license to play the game.
Except the idea behind reselling sealed games is not the exchange of the license to play the game. It is the exchange of the physical media. Since the license is purely an abstract concept, no collector will care if the license has been used but the item has not.
Also, what's with all the people thinking that morals are appetitive?
However, it's absolutely moral. After all, you're not purchasing the game. You're purchasing a license to play it. If you have a pirated copy, you still have the license to play the game.
Except the idea behind reselling sealed games is not the exchange of the license to play the game. It is the exchange of the physical media. Since the license is purely an abstract concept, no collector will care if the license has been used but the item has not.
Also, what's with all the people thinking that morals are appetitive?
The original party got compensated either way, and the only way the sealed copy gets 200-1000 dollars is after it is out of print and no longer competing with the IP holder.
Only way I would feel morally compromised is if you bought the game, acquired the copy, played the game. And returned it for full refund within a short period of time.
That I would feel pretty bad about.
blizzardjesus
Banned
In terms of Legal vs Illegal, What governing body is prosecuting and enforcing these hypothetical laws youse are debating?
Generally I never see them going after the users/downloaders, they go after the source. ie Megaupload/piratebay.
Generally I never see them going after the users/downloaders, they go after the source. ie Megaupload/piratebay.
Aquamarine
Member
None, because it's EXTREMELY hard to go after the actual users. Even if they do track someone down, it takes years and years in court to get anywhere, and for a lot of companies it's just not worth it.
The law is AT BEST a deterrent. The real "governing body" here is your own sense of morality...and how much you want to contribute to the industry to try and keep it afloat.
angular graphics
Banned
Unless you plan on profiting somehow from the closed copy, if there's a terribly good reason to do it OP (eg your DVD-ROM drive is broken), well do it. I don't find it immoral.
Zoe
Member
Speaking as a collector, I feel that part of collecting something also means respecting it. If you want something to stay pristine and stored away in a vault, you buy a second copy.
ihearthawthats
Banned
this helps my point as far as i can tell. if a collector is buying a game for collection purposes, they should use the product for collection purposes. what makes them then think it's okay to download a seperate copy for playing purposes? if they want a game for both collection purposes and for playing purposes, they should purchase two copies.
also, if we're talking about licenses, i think many software programs make you accept some terms or agreements or eula, etc, before you use them. i'm not sure if we can all agree that purchasing the physical package is where this happens.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
legally, as long as you would use a key or marker (license, whatever) that comes with your bought unit, everything is cool.
(this doesn't exist with consoles of course, so it is not legal in the slightest)
The problem lies with you using an unlicensed copy and enabling an infrastructure of individuals who have no intention whatsoever to pay anyway.
But in common sense land: you bought it, it's fine. For an individual consumer that is. And not as a common practice of yours.
I did it for Crisis Core on the PSP, because the whole UMD thing has never gotten my vote of confidence and the noise it makes annoyed me greatly. But that is also the only 'homebrew enabled' console / handheld I own.
I don't think pirating stuff on the PC with a purchase in a following sale is quite kosher though. I can understand it, but you would still give less money to the publisher (hopefully developer) than you would have been willing to. And therein lies the problem, since it takes out value (of the product) as it translates to income that would go to their continued efforts to make thing that appeal to you.
That said, I don't think piracy is wrong (capitalism IS piracy) and that people putting ethics in the relation are misguided and tools (being abused or to be abused).
But then I also don't like people telling me about all their pirated stuff when they should have supported the developing parties. Neither do I feel proud about it. (downloading movies, ebooks, and television shows is also piracy, should a mod see this as an admission of 'active game pirate'. it isn't.)
Or people saying how they got the humblebundles at one buck. Now that's really spitting in the face of ethics.
(this doesn't exist with consoles of course, so it is not legal in the slightest)
The problem lies with you using an unlicensed copy and enabling an infrastructure of individuals who have no intention whatsoever to pay anyway.
But in common sense land: you bought it, it's fine. For an individual consumer that is. And not as a common practice of yours.
I did it for Crisis Core on the PSP, because the whole UMD thing has never gotten my vote of confidence and the noise it makes annoyed me greatly. But that is also the only 'homebrew enabled' console / handheld I own.
I don't think pirating stuff on the PC with a purchase in a following sale is quite kosher though. I can understand it, but you would still give less money to the publisher (hopefully developer) than you would have been willing to. And therein lies the problem, since it takes out value (of the product) as it translates to income that would go to their continued efforts to make thing that appeal to you.
That said, I don't think piracy is wrong (capitalism IS piracy) and that people putting ethics in the relation are misguided and tools (being abused or to be abused).
But then I also don't like people telling me about all their pirated stuff when they should have supported the developing parties. Neither do I feel proud about it. (downloading movies, ebooks, and television shows is also piracy, should a mod see this as an admission of 'active game pirate'. it isn't.)
Or people saying how they got the humblebundles at one buck. Now that's really spitting in the face of ethics.
CyclopsRock
Member
I know a lot of studios (inc large game ones) that use almost exclusively pirated software even though they own licences for all of them sitting on a shelf. The reason is that the anti-piracy measures impact you much worse if you actually pay ball then if you crack it. If the licence server falls over or a USB licence key stops working or the licence manager software is borked, it can lead to a day or more of downtime for your entire team. I've experienced this myself.
I can see a similar justification for when piracy measures impact legitimate users - like how I can't play half the games on my phone when I'm underground with no signal - because posted versions can offer a better experience.
I can see a similar justification for when piracy measures impact legitimate users - like how I can't play half the games on my phone when I'm underground with no signal - because posted versions can offer a better experience.
HitokiriNate85
Member
It's still pirating, but I guess it's slightly more okay if you want to look at it that way.
Seriously, though, what games are you buying now that will be worth much money and would you even sell them? Are there many games this gen that are likely to really be worth much? I can only think of a few. More games are being reprinted because publishers can more easily gauge demand. I imagine certain Wii games will be worth the most in the next 5 years because there won't be a digital option for them. With so many games being available digitally, I can only imagine it will decrease demand for physical copies, even if the market still exists and continues to.
Seriously, though, what games are you buying now that will be worth much money and would you even sell them? Are there many games this gen that are likely to really be worth much? I can only think of a few. More games are being reprinted because publishers can more easily gauge demand. I imagine certain Wii games will be worth the most in the next 5 years because there won't be a digital option for them. With so many games being available digitally, I can only imagine it will decrease demand for physical copies, even if the market still exists and continues to.
Depends where you are.
Here is legal.
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derecho_de_copia_privada#Espa.C3.B1a
Things are not moral or not, things are only legal or not.
Here is legal.
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derecho_de_copia_privada#Espa.C3.B1a
Things are not moral or not, things are only legal or not.
Why aren't you opening it? I don't have any issues with it, morally, assuming you're not planning on profiting from the resale of unopened software.
This is a bit of a special case for me...not because the person refuses to touch his copy, but because the game is unreasonably priced. I feel that if a game is not reasonably available for purchase (not available through DD services in the case of PC games, out of print, unreasonable price, etc...), then I don't really feel it's morally reprehensible for downloading said game. I don't necessarily agree it gives you the right to pirate (after all, there's plenty of legitimate content you can content yourself with), but I won't really have any major moral qualms with you if you do so.
This is a bit of a special case for me...not because the person refuses to touch his copy, but because the game is unreasonably priced. I feel that if a game is not reasonably available for purchase (not available through DD services in the case of PC games, out of print, unreasonable price, etc...), then I don't really feel it's morally reprehensible for downloading said game. I don't necessarily agree it gives you the right to pirate (after all, there's plenty of legitimate content you can content yourself with), but I won't really have any major moral qualms with you if you do so.
GalacticGravy
Member
It's probably not legal, but morally...that's the bigger question.
We have to answer the question "is a game's only function to be played?"
If we shell out $60 for a new title and play it we have done what the publisher had intended. Prices of things work that way (whether it be actual function, or perceived function). If, however, everyone were to begin deriving extra functions from a video game? Maybe the prices would change. The prices having been set to fit the function, initially. If you purchase video games for a different reason other than playing them you are side-stepping the publisher's projections. If all video games could be sold years later for 10x the original price, I scarcely think that the $60 price tag would remain.
What I'm saying is that (possibly) the $60 price of a new game doesn't take into account people doing that. One person doing that? A thousand, even, won't hurt things. But if everyone did it then the publishers might have to change their strategy.
All speculation, of course.
We have to answer the question "is a game's only function to be played?"
If we shell out $60 for a new title and play it we have done what the publisher had intended. Prices of things work that way (whether it be actual function, or perceived function). If, however, everyone were to begin deriving extra functions from a video game? Maybe the prices would change. The prices having been set to fit the function, initially. If you purchase video games for a different reason other than playing them you are side-stepping the publisher's projections. If all video games could be sold years later for 10x the original price, I scarcely think that the $60 price tag would remain.
What I'm saying is that (possibly) the $60 price of a new game doesn't take into account people doing that. One person doing that? A thousand, even, won't hurt things. But if everyone did it then the publishers might have to change their strategy.
All speculation, of course.