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Lightning Returns: FFXIII screenshots and extended Jump Festa trailer

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zoukka

Member
XIII was very hyped. What triggered the hate was the linearity above all. It didn't even feel like a FF game anymore. No secrets everywhere, no exploration, no world map, no airships no nothing.

And then you can argue about the characters being the worst in the series, but that's more subjective.
 

Aeana

Member
XIII was very hyped. What triggered the hate was the linearity above all. It didn't even feel like a FF game anymore. No secrets everywhere, no exploration, no world map, no airships no nothing.

And then you can argue about the characters being the worst in the series, but that's more subjective.
So... what about FF10? It is structured pretty much the same as FF13. It even has that one breath of fresh air open area. FF13: Archylte Steppe :: FF10: Calm Lands.
 
Personally, FFX made you care about its characters. And it had towns. And people. And gave you a very clear sense of its world and people. As for linearity, other than the above making up for it, there was the hope of something better once they learned the hardware. And FFXII kinda rectified that.


Ah, now I recall the hype surrounding FFXIII's demo. The magazine shots of the demo, then the actual demo really looking that gorgeous. Then when the actual game came you kept waiting for it to shift gears and really impress you, but it never did....
 

Trickster

Member
So... what about FF10? It is structured pretty much the same as FF13. It even has that one breath of fresh air open area. FF13: Archylte Steppe :: FF10: Calm Lands.

While it definitely sucks that they moved away from the open world map of previous FF's. FF10 was not nearly as linear as FF13.

FF13 is basically this: cutscene -> linear dungeon crawl -> cutscene -> linear dungeon crawl -> cutscene -> linear dungeon crawl -> cutscene -> linear dungeon crawl -> cutscene.

There's really nothing at all that breaks that structure until you've played the game a good 30 hours. It's pretty much the jrpg version of Call of Duty.
 

Aeana

Member
While it definitely sucks that they moved away from the open world map of previous FF's. FF10 was not nearly as linear as FF13.

FF13 is basically this: cutscene -> linear dungeon crawl -> cutscene -> linear dungeon crawl -> cutscene -> linear dungeon crawl -> cutscene -> linear dungeon crawl -> cutscene.

There's really nothing at all that breaks that structure until you've played the game a good 30 hours. It's pretty much the jrpg version of Call of Duty.
I wouldn't say "not nearly as" at all. FF10 really is pretty much like that too, it just happens to have a couple of town areas to break up the flow a little bit.

I'm honestly kind of afraid for when FF10 HD does eventually come out and people who haven't played it in a decade remember what it's really like.
 

demidar

Member
So... what about FF10? It is structured pretty much the same as FF13. It even has that one breath of fresh air open area. FF13: Archylte Steppe :: FF10: Calm Lands.

Well you did get access to an airship that you could use to visit any previously treaded path and even new areas like that post-game dungeon Omega Ruins(?). There was also more to do like finding players for Blitzball, ultimate weapons, monster coliseum, dark summons, finding Al-Bhed manuels (I really loved this for some reason).
 

patapuf

Member
Yeah, the story being bad, the world building being even worse (no towns, a lot of backround info hidden away in a "codex", ect..) and no side content at all besides some end game monster hunting is what makes XIII a lot less liked than X.

That said, i never felt FFXIII was anything but a final fantasy game.
 

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
I wouldn't say "not nearly as" at all. FF10 really is pretty much like that too, it just happens to have a couple of town areas to break up the flow a little bit.

I'm honestly kind of afraid for when FF10 HD does eventually come out and people who haven't played it in a decade remember what it's really like.

You say "a little bit", I say they are significant enough to actually bring the much needed flow to the game and to make it very different than FF13. FF13 is just battle upon battle upon battle upon battle upon battle--if the game implement several towns/hubs where player can do stuff and take much needed breather like in FF10 I am willing to bet there will be much less complaining about its linearity.
 
Well you did get access to an airship that you could use to visit any previously treaded path and even new areas like that post-game dungeon Omega Ruins(?). There was also more to do like finding players for Blitzball, ultimate weapons, monster coliseum, dark summons, finding Al-Bhed manuels (I really loved this for some reason).



Hell yes. You can't fly the airship, but at least you could walk around in it. Gotta have the airship.
 

Shinta

Banned
Well you did get access to an airship that you could use to visit any previously treaded path and even new areas like that post-game dungeon Omega Ruins(?). There was also more to do like finding players for Blitzball, ultimate weapons, monster coliseum, dark summons, finding Al-Bhed manuels (I really loved this for some reason).

What about XIII-2? Has the mini-games, towns, and side-quests, Colosseum, collectible monsters, and you can travel anywhere through the historia crux. Pretty close to FFX.
 

demidar

Member
What about XIII-2? Has the mini-games, towns, and side-quests, Colosseum, collectible monsters, and you can travel anywhere through the historia crux. Pretty close to FFX.

I haven't played it so I wouldn't know. What I do know is that it's loads better than FF13, as the problem wasn't the combat mechanics rather it was everything else. Although I don't know how fun/tedious monster ranching is.
 

zoukka

Member
So... what about FF10? It is structured pretty much the same as FF13. It even has that one breath of fresh air open area. FF13: Archylte Steppe :: FF10: Calm Lands.

I remember being disappointed of there not being a real world map, but the game was so packed with secrets and content, I did not mind back then. They managed to create the world so that it didn't feel as cramped as XIII felt.

The backlash was there, but they did something that XIII didn't manage.
 

MCD

Junior Member
What about XIII-2? Has the mini-games, towns, and side-quests, Colosseum, collectible monsters, and you can travel anywhere through the historia crux. Pretty close to FFX.

FF13-2 was one long fetch quest after another.

I hate meaningless sidequests like oh please go find my lost fucking puppy in some paradox.
 

Auto_aim1

MeisaMcCaffrey
X generally did a better job of disguising the linearity than XIII.
Right, some games tend to disguise linearity better than others. With FFX, the pacing of the game was really well tuned, new charismatic characters were introduced at regular intervals, and the story did a much better job in immersing the player with rapidly changing scenarios.

I guess one of the reasons it's such an issue in FFXIII is that the story didn't really grip the player initially. Many things were explained via the datalog which is not the way to go if you want to maintain a good pacing. Overall both the games were structured similarly, but FFX did some things really better to mask the linearity.
 
While it definitely sucks that they moved away from the open world map of previous FF's. FF10 was not nearly as linear as FF13.

FF13 is basically this: cutscene -> linear dungeon crawl -> cutscene -> linear dungeon crawl -> cutscene -> linear dungeon crawl -> cutscene -> linear dungeon crawl -> cutscene.

There's really nothing at all that breaks that structure until you've played the game a good 30 hours. It's pretty much the jrpg version of Call of Duty.

That's exactly what it was like, there was literally NO deviation from the main story line, at least in 10 you could break away from the story and talk to npc's and play blitzball or something to break up the monotony, and the pacing was just better in 10. Plus when 10 did open up there was so much more to do than in 13. Aside from that, the talk of all the linearity in 13 just drowns out all the other numerous little flaws 13 had that weren't present in any other FF; 13 is just a worse game from top to bottom.
 

Exodus

Banned
i hope they take the gameplay up a notch. paradigm shifting is a very, very boring mechanic.

you know what ffxiii's combat system feels like? an mmo where you play as a healer. all you do is watch health bars. the strategy has been streamlined an despite the presentation being beautiful the combat is easily the weakest part if the series. they have concentrated so much effort into making the game look cinematic and have made player input unsatisfying, i barely have to think with the combat system they have in place. yes i have done the hunts in xiii, that just adds the pain of the boredom the combat system is this generation.
 

Fuu

Formerly Alaluef (not Aladuf)
That's what I thought too. Lots of Crystal Bearers stuff in this. Crystal Bearers had a very likeable protagonist in Layle, but some of its gameplay wasn't very refined. The camera was wonky and some of the physics were wonky. If they could possibly refine that style and add things to make it more palatable to FF mainline players, then maybe it might be better off, but it seems like LR is going to be an amalgamation of concepts. This may or may not be a good thing for cohesion.

Um. I do think the Majora's Mask-esque concept of NPCs changing where they are at different time frames (and hopefully per diem) is fine. I would like to see more of that stuff in more games, and if it's executed here well, then I have little qualms.
Yeah, these similarities are making me wary. Crystal Bearers showed much promise with its concepts (I was very hyped for the game pre-release), but the execution was pretty much ass and it unfortunately ended up being a boring and clunky game. Despite their faults I managed to have fun with both XIII and XIII-2 after I adjusted my expectations, so even though LR sounds like it's trying to juggle a lot of things at once I hope it manages to stay somewhat cohesive and entertaining throughout.
 

duckroll

Member
X generally did a better job of disguising the linearity than XIII.

The biggest "problem" with FFXIII is that the entire narrative up until Chapter 11 is basically designed like a stage based action blockbuster with one set piece after another, the characters being chased, always moving forward, and having no time or reason to stick around anywhere to explore anything or have any "down time" so to speak.

This would not be a problem if the story was actually compelling enough to keep players interested in what's going on. Since most people seem to feel it was bad, that says more about the writing than the actual linearity being an issue.
 

one_kill

Member
I'm currently playing through XIII and I agree with a lot of the negative points some users have pointed out. The game is extremely linear, the combat is mostly a button mashing affair, and the story is irritating.

Weirdly enough, I'm still having fun playing the game. The paradigm system is neat as it makes fights look cinematic. I also like how levelling is handled.
 

Exentryk

Member
There is a new interview for LR up on http://hokanko-alt.ldblog.jp/archives/67767965.html
I'd tell you all the good stuff if I could translate.
OuoGy.gif
 
XIII was very hyped. What triggered the hate was the linearity above all. It didn't even feel like a FF game anymore. No secrets everywhere, no exploration, no world map, no airships no nothing.

And then you can argue about the characters being the worst in the series, but that's more subjective.

All true.

You also forgot FF13 came after FF12 which was simply mindblowingly open ended. FF13 in that regard feels like a HUGE step backwards.
 

Goli

Member
There is a new interview for LR up on http://hokanko-alt.ldblog.jp/archives/67767965.html
I'd tell you all the good stuff if I could translate.
OuoGy.gif

It has pretty much the same things that were on Famitsu.
The only thing which I think is new is a bit of talk about the storyline, where they mention the theme of it is the release/liberation of souls. Lightning is the "liberator" and is tasked with guiding souls towards a new world.
 

Exentryk

Member
It has pretty much the same things that were on Famitsu.
The only thing which I think is new is a bit of talk about the storyline, where they mention the theme of it is the release/liberation of souls. Lightning is the "liberator" and is tasked with guiding souls towards a new world.

Right. Thanks Goli!
 

Goli

Member
There are some other things that I think are new but it's not much...
Luxerion's concept is a town/city with a religious/fanatic group, each continent in the game has its own concept (does this mean Luxerion isn't a city but more like an entire continent?).
Also, they mention that while several hundred years have passed, Chaos still hasn't spread everywhere.
 

Exentryk

Member
Religious/fanatic group eh? That's why Lightning said "Only fools believe the Goddess' ways." It was in reference to that group?

And Chaos hasn't spread yet? What was XIII-2's ending all about then? =/
 

Goli

Member
Religious/fanatic group eh? That's why Lightning said "Only fools believe the Goddess' ways." It was in reference to that group?

And Chaos hasn't spread yet? What was XIII-2's ending all about then? =/

Well, FFXIII-2's ending basically showed how the Chaos started spreading.
In LRFF, Chaos has spread but not everywhere yet.
Perhaps the world/game ends once the Chaos finishes spreading?
If that's how it works they could implement things like different events/monsters being availiable at different places depending on how much Chaos is in the area... O:
Also I decided to watch the Jump Festa trailer again and noticed EP is GP in the Japanese version.
 

Fuu

Formerly Alaluef (not Aladuf)
The biggest "problem" with FFXIII is that the entire narrative up until Chapter 11 is basically designed like a stage based action blockbuster with one set piece after another, the characters being chased, always moving forward, and having no time or reason to stick around anywhere to explore anything or have any "down time" so to speak.

This would not be a problem if the story was actually compelling enough to keep players interested in what's going on. Since most people seem to feel it was bad, that says more about the writing than the actual linearity being an issue.
XIII definitely felt like playing set pieces and it's really something that needs to be avoided. X did great when it came to having continuity between the areas and you always felt a sense of logical progression and how the characters reacted and developed in regards to the events and settings. Not to mention intertwining the mythology with the PCs and NPCs lives and actions. Even if looked broadly X was also linear, it was cohesive and compelling.

When you crossed from Calm Lands to Mount Gagazet, largely different areas, you cold see the attention to detail in making it gel for the player. Because of the more competent and better paced narrative you buy the sense of wonder that places like Macalania Woods are supposed to instill, and the game always offered the necessary downtime to digest that kind of thing. It wasn't just a sudden shiny place like, say, Lake Bresha (one of the many areas in XIII that deserved to be developed better. Visually good but not much more than that).

In XIII we had Pulse, but even though it was nice to cross a cliff and arrive at cool ruins, having a bunch of statues giving you missions isn't really the ideal solution for engaging the player, which is something they tried to fix in XIII-2 with varying results.

When I was running like a motherfucker in Palumpolum and Eden, all I could think about is how gorgeous those places looked and how cool it would be to be able to stop even for a little bit there to, I don't know, talk to some NPCs and stuff like that, knowing about how life is at those places and little things outside the main plot. I remember some people praising the focus on battles and how towns in RPGs are artificial and boring, but I craved for the illusion of actually "being" at those locations that previous FFs always managed to give me, and to me having interactions with the world outside of fighting is a very important facet to achieve that.
 

Exentryk

Member
Well, FFXIII-2's ending basically showed how the Chaos started spreading.
In LRFF, Chaos has spread but not everywhere yet.
Perhaps the world/game ends once the Chaos finishes spreading?
If that's how it works they could implement things like different events/monsters being availiable at different places depending on how much Chaos is in the area... O:
Also I decided to watch the Jump Festa trailer again and noticed EP is GP in the Japanese version.

That very well could be the case. Are you sure you're not working with Toriyama? o_O

What does that EP/GP do anyway?
 

Bladenic

Member
XIII definitely felt like playing set pieces and it's really something that needs to be avoided. X did great when it came to having continuity between the areas and you always felt a sense of logical progression and how the characters reacted and developed in regards to the events and settings. Not to mention intertwining the mythology with the PCs and NPCs lives and actions. Even if looked broadly X was also linear, it was cohesive and compelling.

When you crossed from Calm Lands to Mount Gagazet, largely different areas, you cold see the attention to detail in making it gel for the player. Because of the more competent and better paced narrative you buy the sense of wonder that places like Macalania Woods are supposed to instill, and the game always offered the necessary downtime to digest that kind of thing. It wasn't just a sudden shiny place like, say, Lake Bresha (one of the many areas in XIII that deserved to be developed better. Visually good but not much more than that).

In XIII we had Pulse, but even though it was nice to cross a cliff and arrive at cool ruins, having a bunch of statues giving you mission isn't really the ideal solution for engaging the player, which is something they tried to fix in XIII-2 with varying results.

When I was running like a motherfucker in Palumpolum and Eden, all I could think about is how gorgeous those places looked and how cool it would be to be able to stop even for a little bit there to, I don't know, talk to some NPCs and stuff like that, knowing about how life is at those places and little things outside the main plot. I remember some people praising the focus on battles and how towns in RPGs are artificial and boring, but I craved for the illusion of actually "being" at those locations that previous FFs always managed to give me, and to me having interactions with the world outside of fighting is a very important facet to achieve that.

Wonderful post. You never get a sense of the world in Cocoon. You end one chapter and next chapter your characters are in an entire different location with no sense of how they traveled there, mainly because you don't get to do the traveling yourself, it's something that happens offscreen. Pulse handled this better, but in FFX you felt Spira was wholly connected in a way that made sense.

And I think the biggest reason FFX gets a pass for its linearity, besides the huge amount of different content of course, is the story and characters. Not saying that the story or characters are perfect, but they were and are much more well received than XIII's. Tidus might be negatively received generally, but Yuna and Auron get much love, while the rest of the cast is not hated upon. Meanwhile, the only XIII character to have an overall positive reception is Sazh, while everyone else is varying levels of indifference or hate.

I am kind of excited for LR if they pull it off (which I'm not hopeful of). An open world FF game could work.
 

demidar

Member
There are some other things that I think are new but it's not much...
Luxerion's concept is a town/city with a religious/fanatic group, each continent in the game has its own concept (does this mean Luxerion isn't a city but more like an entire continent?).
Also, they mention that while several hundred years have passed, Chaos still hasn't spread everywhere.

Sounds a lot like Isla del Sol from Bayonetta.
 

RPGCrazied

Member
Is Noel even going to be in this? Or at least mentioned? Sad to say but he is my favorite character from the XIII universe. I really hope there will be an XIII-3 with the return of Noel's story. They did say this is the end of Lightning's story, they didn't say it was the end for XIII stories.
 

Bladenic

Member
Is Noel even going to be in this? Or at least mentioned? Sad to say but he is my favorite character from the XIII universe. I really hope there will be an XIII-3 with the return of Noel's story. They did say this is the end of Lightning's story, they didn't say it was the end for XIII stories.

He will certainly be in it.
 

Thoraxes

Member
Is Noel even going to be in this? Or at least mentioned? Sad to say but he is my favorite character from the XIII universe. I really hope there will be an XIII-3 with the return of Noel's story. They did say this is the end of Lightning's story, they didn't say it was the end for XIII stories.

I would bet on it.
So... what about FF10? It is structured pretty much the same as FF13. It even has that one breath of fresh air open area. FF13: Archylte Steppe :: FF10: Calm Lands.

As someone who played X for the first time in 2011, I totally agree with these statements. People were shunning me when I started talking about the linearity and puzzle sections that broke up the gameplay something fierce. I think I just noticed it more because I went into playing it with a different mindset than a lot of people did back in 2001.
 
Yes.

Her Omochao was overkill.
i heard it once , never heard it again !

Me too. 13 and 13-2's battle systems were smooth as butter. It's one of the only RPG's where I actually load up just to go through some boss battles and try out different strategies and see how fast I can beat the fight or how many points I can win.

I agree ..this might be also why there was leaderboards for FF13-2 ..challenging yourself to get more battle points can take a lot of your time if you enjoy this battle system.

FF13-2 was one long fetch quest after another.

I hate meaningless sidequests like oh please go find my lost fucking puppy in some paradox.
Those kind of quests exist in every rpg ...every rpgFF13 had also some things to be distracted from those.

I also dunno why FF3-2 was one quest after another ..the ONLY real fetch quest the game had was the gravition cores and you don't even need them all to finish it !
 

demidar

Member
I don't know if anyone cares, but most NPCs in XIII-2 had that dead-eyed stare to them. Although I was surprised they were actually voiced, it clashes with how robotic they look.
 

Toth

Member
Yay the thread remained civil! Progress, people :D

Oh and Kagari, I did mean console RPGs. Was FF13 the last highest seller?
 

Shinta

Banned
Religious/fanatic group eh? That's why Lightning said "Only fools believe the Goddess' ways." It was in reference to that group?

And Chaos hasn't spread yet? What was XIII-2's ending all about then? =/

It might have been her going undercover, and pretending to agree with their ideology to gain some information. Or not? No idea.

It has pretty much the same things that were on Famitsu.
The only thing which I think is new is a bit of talk about the storyline, where they mention the theme of it is the release/liberation of souls. Lightning is the "liberator" and is tasked with guiding souls towards a new world.

That's definitely interesting. They mentioned that she's investigating a series of murders in earlier previews. Maybe she's also trying to track down their souls since there's no longer a normal progression to the afterlife, so she has to help them? Sounds a bit like Bleach.
 
I wouldn't say "not nearly as" at all. FF10 really is pretty much like that too, it just happens to have a couple of town areas to break up the flow a little bit.

I'm honestly kind of afraid for when FF10 HD does eventually come out and people who haven't played it in a decade remember what it's really like.

It's true that X was as "linear" as XIII, if we're talking about the level design. The game was funneling the player through a series of linear corridors up to Zanarkand. The difference between X and XIII is that X's pacing is top notch whilst XIII's is fucked beyond belief. The story in X progresses normally, as it should. The cutscenes have something to them; they are not irrelevant. They make the story evolve. XIII has so much cutscenes devoid of anything substantial to them, making the story drag and drag to the point of inanity.

Many people either forget or simply don't know, but pacing is the most important thing in any medium. Without it, it doesn't matter how great your characters are, how beautiful your story is or how deep the underlying meanings can be interpreted; if your video game, movie or book has terrible pacing, it will lose its audience.

That's what happened to XIII, on top of having the shittiest story and characters in the entire fucking series. The only thing that saved it was the phenomenal combat system. The only thing.
 
I don't know if anyone cares, but most NPCs in XIII-2 had that dead-eyed stare to them. Although I was surprised they were actually voiced, it clashes with how robotic they look.

many of them weren't enjoy life or were paradoxes ... some were indeed robots !!
 

Fuu

Formerly Alaluef (not Aladuf)
Is Noel even going to be in this? Or at least mentioned? Sad to say but he is my favorite character from the XIII universe. I really hope there will be an XIII-3 with the return of Noel's story. They did say this is the end of Lightning's story, they didn't say it was the end for XIII stories.
Exentryk noticed what's most certainly Noel's arm in the trailer:

Also, we definitely confirmed Noel in LR, right?

7cQRi.png

4ZShz.png
 

Midou

Member
Do you guys really think that having 2 active FF threads on this site at all times filled with 90% toxic comments doesn't damage the brand? If sites like these were as common when past FF games were out, how would that have impacted people's perceptions of the games? Before, you mostly made up your own mind about it. You didn't have every single flaw pointed out 1,000x before you even got the game, and if you didn't notice it or think it was a flaw, you wouldn't even realize it was there.

I disagree with this insanely. Prior to playing FFXIII, and right at launch too, all I saw was the Famitsu 39/40 review. I didn't go in with high expectations though, because I've never really trusted them. I was INSANELY hyped by the promotional trailers though, and especially after FFXII came out, that I loved, though it did not receive quite a high reception, I thought Square Enix was probably going to go in an awesome direction with this game too.

Instead, I forced my way slowly through all of FFXIII, I put it off several times, but thought I should at least finish it after waiting all that time for it.

So no, the blogs simply point out the truth, the problems with the games are their own. I was simply glad most of the gaming community seems logical on the matter and can spot the flaws. They are worth discussing as much as possible, so perhaps Square Enix can go in a new direction with their next main title, and we don't get a full trilogy of nonsensical garbage.
 
Yeah, I have to agree that the idea that I hate FFXIII because I went into it having already made up my mind to hate it is complete hogwash. I was hyped as hell for FFXIII. I avoided all impressions from the Japanese release, bought it as soon as I could day one, and went in expecting to love it. Ended up hating it. Have absolutely no intention of ever buying FFXIII-2 after how much I disliked the first.

Funny how that works?
 
I went into XIII with an open mind, I didn't even pay for it so you can't say I got buyer's remorse either.

The game was just crap. I wanted my time back.
 
I don't know if anyone cares, but most NPCs in XIII-2 had that dead-eyed stare to them. Although I was surprised they were actually voiced, it clashes with how robotic they look.

They should be happy they're alive and free, ungrateful bastards. :p

Funny when some of them lost their home (3AF), are turned into L'cie monster against their will ( Academia 400AF ) or some of them are ghosts remnants of the end of the world (700AF)

BUt yeah they should fix those npcs in LR now that they only have 13 days to live !!!
 

Shinta

Banned
Yeah, I have to agree that the idea that I hate FFXIII because I went into it having already made up my mind to hate it is complete hogwash.

Not sure how you guys reduced all that I said to that claim, because that's not even what I was saying. I don't really care if you liked it or not, that's up to you. The fact is, you're still commenting about it at the end of 2012, telling everyone how much you have no intention of getting it, in a thread about the third game in the series.

Would that happen with print media? No.

They'd review it (it reviewed fairly well), maybe do a postmortem, some interviews, and then start covering the next game. It's a completely different dynamic from the way gamers formed opinions of FFI-FFXII. Nothing about it is hogwash. Read what I actually said.

And yeah, even in that IGN review I linked he mentions fan controveries. "The extreme linearity of FFXIII has been a serious point of contention for long time followers of the series." This is a review done pre-release. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who even remembers 2009.
 

Gorillaz

Member
As someone fresh to the series I kind of liked 13. The melodramatic characters and the linearity kind of make roll my eyes, but I liked the world of 13.

To bad they continually fucked the universe and mythology up after spending all this time building it up.
 
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