Support NeoGAF

[SlowRevolution]

all these leaks are probably awesome but I don't understand any of it. I thought we already knew most of this.

 

[ThisWreckage]

Third party titles will look nearly identical with one console performing better than the other in certain areas and the other console performing better than the first in certain areas. Nearly identical with pros and cons depending on the console. This is way better news for Sony than it is for Microsoft.

First party titles will look insane given the RAM on the PS4. If Naughty Dog made the Uncharted titles using the limited memory on the PS3 then it boggles the mind to imagine what they can produce on the PS4. All of those studios Sony invested in will pay huge dividends this generation.

 

[Mr.Wreckless]

Didnt this gen show that horsepower really doesnt matter, what matters is which console is easiest for the developers to program for.

Can anyone tell if Orbis or Durango will be inherently easier to develop for?

 

[Radec]

So, my current PC i:

I5 2500kGTX 570
12GB DDr3


Can Orbis do things that I can't with my PC?

Yes.

Play Sony Exclusive games.

 

[Takuya]

350 dollars is a lot of money. The 7870 GPU with 2GB of GDDR5 is $250 retail and it is twice as fast as what's in these boxes. MS and Sony could easily get something like that for half the price once you factor out the retail cut, nvidia/AMD cut, AiB partner cut, memory and finally the other graphics cards components out that you don't need in a console. That would leave $225 out of a $350 BOM for the relatively slow CPU, 4GB of GDDR5 or 8GB of DDR3, a bog standard blu ray drive, motherboard and other miscellaneous items. $300 is more than achievable once you consider the weak GPUs in these machines.

These consoles will NOT be releasing at $350.

 

[onQ123]

Theory- 4 CU's modified for BC?

about how much compute power did the SPE's have all together?


because I been saying that the GPGPU could be used to run the SPE tasks for a long time. & it look like these 4 CU's will be taking the place of the SPE's like all the things that devs used to use the SPE's for can now be done with the 4 CU's in the PS4 set up.

 

[Horse Armour]

So, my current PC i:

I5 2500kGTX 570
12GB DDr3


Can Orbis do things that I can't with my PC?

Nope. You'll still not get amazing performance considering that console games generally run much better than PC games, just take a look at games like Far Cry 3 and AC3.

 

[Eideka]

So, my current PC i:

I5 2500kGTX 570
12GB DDr3


Can Orbis do things that I can't with my PC?

Yes of course because this is a general purpose PC, consoles are heavily customized and more efficient at certain tasks. The comparison is pointless.
As someone said on Beyond3d the Orbis/Durango GPU are capable of things that no other GPU on the market is, not because they are hugely powerful but because they work in a closed environment.

Simple.

 

[Spongebob]

Disappointing specs from both Orbis and Durango.

Next-gen graphics will likely disappoint.

 

[Interfectum]

If Durango doesn't have this, you can damn well bet that a significant portion of the GPU will be crippled. GPGPU is the wave of the future, don't be daft.

Nailed it. Next gen needs to be more than just prettier shaders. Give me a physics beast where I can destroy everything on the stage.

 

[Gorillaz]

HYPE

This has to be the greatest hype gif I've seen in awhile.

350 dollars is a lot of money. The 7870 GPU with 2GB of GDDR5 is $250 retail and it is twice as fast as what's in these boxes. MS and Sony could easily get something like that for half the price once you factor out the retail cut, nvidia/AMD cut, AiB partner cut, memory and finally the other graphics cards components out that you don't need in a console. That would leave $225 out of a $350 BOM for the relatively slow CPU, 4GB of GDDR5 or 8GB of DDR3, a bog standard blu ray drive, motherboard and other miscellaneous items. $300 is more than achievable once you consider the weak GPUs in these machines.

Wow so there is a small chance they will launch even at 300? That would definitely work in this type of economy for most people. Tho are these specs future proof tho? How long could the gen last with them or how long will they last?

 

[abadguy]

Last I heard this is a kinect game for the Durango, do you have more recent informations ?

Since the last Showing Phil Spencer was saying it was going to utilize the Controller and Kinect.

 

[meta4]

So is there any consensus on whether it is better to include the 4CU in the main graphical pipeline or to keep it seperate?

 

[Nirolak]

Isn't this what we had already? Wasn't there some additional silicon?

The "additional silicon" turned out to be four of the graphics card's compute shaders.

 

[Noisepurge]

You won't for a while, at least not the final design. I bet the prototypes are very "rough" at this stage.

I NEED TO!

goes breaking into Foxconn ->

 

[moneyman232]

How about not really. Not every games need open world.

I won't mind for Uncharted graphics (animation mainly) in the non-Uncharted openworld.

Ehh just a personal wish, and completely possible after playing UC3...the few open scenarios would of been a great experiment

 

[Reiko]

Disappointing specs from both Orbis and Durango.

Next-gen graphics will likely disappoint.

Hint:

Spoiler

They won't

 

[Quaz51]

If it's minor it implies it is largely reserved/optimized for compute behavior, since I wouldn't consider a 28% increase minor.

it's "minor" because it's "+28% rendering compute" VS "+400% CPU compute"
but it's probably full CU rendering if you want

 

[i-Lo]

Hold on a minute there console warrior. If you want things like destructible environments, heavy physics, better animation blending, less clipping, and better set pieces, than you better be good at Compute.

This was a conscious decision, and it is GOOD news. If Durango doesn't have this, you can damn well bet that a significant portion of the GPU will be crippled. GPGPU is the wave of the future, don't be daft.

I hope your confidence inspires the same in others. The thread started at the crest and with the update feels like is sliding toward a perennial trough. I can understand the validity of their decisions and it would be best exemplified by actual games.

 

[BloodMoney]

350 dollars is a lot of money. The 7870 GPU with 2GB of GDDR5 is $250 retail and it is twice as fast as what's in these boxes. MS and Sony could easily get something like that for half the price once you factor out the retail cut, nvidia/AMD cut, AiB partner cut, memory and finally the other graphics cards components out that you don't need in a console. That would leave $225 out of a $350 BOM for the relatively slow CPU, 4GB of GDDR5 or 8GB of DDR3, a bog standard blu ray drive, motherboard and other miscellaneous items. $300 is more than achievable once you consider the weak GPUs in these machines.

First, $350 is not a lot of money for a brand new console.

Second, the 7870 is only a video card... NOT an entire system with a processor, blu-ray drive, input, output, audio, controllers, cables, blah blah blah yadda yadda yadda.

Third, Orbis will not cost $350, $400 is realistically the minimum.

 

[deanos]

what i dont understand is this, how would vgleaks know that using these 4 CUs would produce only minor boost?

smells like wild speculation on their part.

 

[BaroqueSampson]

Sorry, but can someone explain the RAM situation to me? The Orbis will have 4 gigs of what vs. the Durango's 8 of DDR3?

 

[Baconsammy]

This pleases me, I have no interest whatsoever in motion controllers. Yes, I'm part of "those" people that favor traditional gaming over what I see as gimmicks.

If the rumors are true, all games on the next Xbox will be Kinect enhanced. Not necessarily motion controlled. Much like all games are currently achievement-enhanced.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

God, please don't downgrade to a 360 controller, that would be horrible. MS can't even get a decent d-pad and their sticks aren't symmetrical.

For all intents and purposes the PSX dpad isn't great and analog placement is what I dig about 360.

 

[Oblivion]

DirectX 11.1+ feature set

Isn't that kinda skimpy?

 

[iceatcs]

These consoles will NOT be releasing at $350.

Vita was going to release same price as 3DS.

Ehh just a personal wish, and completely possible after playing UC3...the few open scenarios would of been a great experiment

Ok. I'm just saying openworld is not best thing in game. It could get more boring. It just good on it own, but not for every games.

 

[DieH@rd]

AMD bets the company on their new philosophy and products and neither Durango nor the PS4 end up with anything "new" like unified shaders have been.

HSA? GPGPU? HSA? Kaveri? Steamroller?

If reserving 4 CUs + downclocked GPU + Jaguar is the best AMD can do I really wonder if firing their designers have been such a good idea. They are far not ready for anything it seems.

It really is the best they can do, because all that is packed in one big APU. Nothing like this exist in PC space, and its produced at the wishes of the Sony [and MS wans similar stuff] so they can package it in sub 200W console that is cheap to produce and offers fast ROI.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

These consoles will NOT be releasing at $350.

I know numbers don't matter but the most expensive hardware in WiiU is the tablet. Nintendo sold it to someone for $280 without any power supply, if I remember correctly. Adding and subtracting directly won't make sense but it'ls a good estimate of what the pricing is.

 

[Horse Armour]

This has to be the greatest hype gif I've seen in awhile.


Wow so there is a small chance they will launch even at 300? That would definitely work in this type of economy for most people. Tho are these specs future proof tho? How long could the gen last with them or how long will they last?

Well, relative to the PS3 and especially the 360, they're a lot less impressive so it's difficult to say how long they'll stay graphically relevant. Even if they're left behind faster than the last gen consoles hardware wise, there might still not be any games that take advantage of the much faster PC hardware just like this gen.

 

[whitehawk]

This has to be the greatest hype gif I've seen in awhile.

It's not even a hype GIF, but I thought it fit the situation.

video source if you're interested: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH6hFFfIo5U

 

[clutch.as.it.gets.]

You say this as if Xbox 3 will never use it's GPGPU for computing or PS4 will always use it's GPGPU for computing?


it's still 1.8TFLOPS vs 1.2TFLOPS it's just that 400 of the 1840 GFLOPS will be more balanced for computing.


they both have the same CPU so chances are that any game that will need the extra computing power of the PS4 GPGPU will also need it on Xbox 3 too so where will that extra computing power come from?

Yep, that`s true.

 

[Vyse The Legend]

350 dollars is a lot of money. The 7870 GPU with 2GB of GDDR5 is $250 retail and it is twice as fast as what's in these boxes. MS and Sony could easily get something like that for half the price once you factor out the retail cut, nvidia/AMD cut, AiB partner cut, memory and finally the other graphics cards components out that you don't need in a console. That would leave $225 out of a $350 BOM for the relatively slow CPU, 4GB of GDDR5 or 8GB of DDR3, a bog standard blu ray drive, motherboard and other miscellaneous items. $300 is more than achievable once you consider the weak GPUs in these machines.

$300? That's a very long shot. If it happens, it will be the low-end, casual SKU that no one on NeoGAF will want anyway.

 

[Eideka]

Disappointing specs from both Orbis and Durango.

Next-gen graphics will likely disappoint.

Are you a developper ? If not how can you be so adamant ?

 

[Agent Ironside]

So what does this mean for multiplat... will the devs even take advantage of the extra 4 CU's? Or is this more so a Sony first party advantage?

 

[Binabik15]

They aren't final.

Spoiler

believe =[

How has nobody photoshoped the flying saucer pic with the Orbis "mockup" yet?

If it sounds good, then count on MS and new Sony not to do it, it seems. Unless the list is BS or incomplete or Sony is hiding/tinkering with it still.

I want to berieve.

I mean, PS4 will be at least OKAY anyway, but I want greatness, not waiting for first party games to really outgun current games.

 

[strafer]

dat Gran Turismo 6

 

[Gorillaz]

Sorry, but can someone explain the RAM situation to me? The Orbis will have 4 gigs of what vs. the Durango's 8 of DDR3?

4GDDR5 (faster, Unified and higher bandwith)
8DDR3 (not unified but greater quanity of it.)

 

[Piggus]

Think subscription based pricing. That is how Microsoft will keep it affordable and probably beat Sony's pricing this round. MS already tested it this past holiday season with the 360 and a two year sub to live. Expect something similar. Welcome to cell phone pricing.

I highly doubt that would be their primary pricing strategy. Not everyone is going to want to sign a contract, especially parents. Also, "cell phone pricing" (it's called subsidized pricing) is not a worldwide thing. It's common in the US but not everywhere. Will it be an option? Probably. Will they sell a $600 console at a subsidized price everywhere? No, not with the specs we have.

Speaking of which, it doesn't sound like you're looking at memory bandwidth in all of this... an area where, given what we know, Orbis has a big advantage. In what way do you see Durango having a performance advantage? Architecture? They're both practically the same, but the Orbis has a much faster memory architecture. GPU? We clearly see the Orbis GPU is pushing more ops than the rumored Durango GPU. CPU? Not if those rumors about MS dedicating two cores to the OS are true.

 

[Durante]

Wait so they are indeed weaker then people are saying? Like 350 US dollars type of weak?

Well, unless there are some very expensive controllers and cameras packed with the systems I don't see any reason why they should be sold for more than $400.

 

[systemfehler]

Hold on a minute there console warrior. If you want things like destructible environments, heavy physics, better animation blending, less clipping, and better set pieces, than you better be good at Compute.

This was a conscious decision, and it is GOOD news. If Durango doesn't have this, you can damn well bet that a significant portion of the GPU will be crippled. GPGPU is the wave of the future, don't be daft.

OR the only chance Sony had to get at least some general processing power when the Netbook cats are playing with a ball of yarn...

Well, unless there are some very expensive controllers and cameras packed with the systems I don't see any reason why they should be sold for more than $400.

For Sony to make money or at the very least break even instead of subsidizing and making money only from games aka the Nintendo route.

 

[whitehawk]

I know numbers don't matter but the most expensive hardware in WiiU is the tablet. Nintendo sold it to someone for $280 without any power supply, if I remember correctly. Adding and subtracting directly won't make sense but it'ls a good estimate of what the pricing is.

Nintendo selling it to someone isn't reliable right now. I could see them charging $100 when the officially put them on the market, maybe a little more.

I expect the PS4/720 to be $399 minimum, $499 maximum. Right now I'd put my money on $499 though, especially if Sony includes a move controller, and Microsoft includes a Kinect 2.0.

 

[Elios83]

Isn't this what we had already? Wasn't there some additional silicon?

Assuming the article is accurate, it's the same in the sense that there is a GPGPU module made out of 4 customized compute units.
This module will assist the CPU for compute tasks like advanced physics, post processing,etc. It will have a role similar to Cell's SPEs.
The difference is that these 4 compute units are taken out of the GPU, they're not extra stuff. Raw power is still 1.84Teraflops with all included, nothing more.

 

[pr0cs]

Are you a developper ? If not how can you be so adamant ?

he's a joke poster.

 

[oversitting]

Basically what I expected. The GPGPU will be a main part of the machine. And not the BS Wii U GPGPU people were screaming about.

1.4TF is pretty damn good. Good enough for 1080p 30Fps with extreme detail or 1080p 60fps with details at the level of "ultra" on PC today with some optimizations.

400GFLOP for computer is a lot. Might be used for BC but would be relatively hard to emulate the cell still. This is about as many GLOPs inside the entire Wii U. And GCN is much more efficient than the r700 shaders in the Wii U.

4GB at 176GB/s is respectable and more than enough. A more reasonable number compared to 192GB/s.

Texture units inside the 4CU are probably not usable for rendering in general. Im not sure how it would even work if CUs are dedicated to GPGPU and somehow be able to help texturize. We are probably looking at 14*4 texture units.

32ROPs will be amazing. Finally get good AA in consoles.

 

[kittoo]

1.8 TF's...How many TF is a GTX 670?

For comparison-

GTX 470- 1.0886 TFs
GTX 480- 1.345
GTX 580- 1.5811
GTX 670- 2.4595
GTX 680- 3.0904

 

[LightOfTruth]

So I read the first couple of pages, people were saying this is a beast.

Now it isnt? Can someone clarify this for me? Is the Orbis gonna be powerful or not, and is there a difference in power between it and Durango?

 

[iamshadowlark]

So is there any consensus on whether it is better to include the 4CU in the main graphical pipeline or to keep it seperate?

Im pretty sure it's inconsequential.

 

[Orayn]

$400 is the golden ring that Sony has to grab here. I have a very hard time picturing the least expensive Durango SKU being any more than that, so if Sony goes any higher it's at their own peril.

 

[metalslimer]

Well, unless there are some very expensive controllers and cameras packed with the systems I don't see any reason why they should be sold for more than $400.

I wonder if MS would take the hit to go for the kiil on everyone and do 350.

Edit: Whoever decides to be a fool and go above 400 with the least expensive SKU is in for a world of trouble.

 

[Verendus]

These consoles will NOT be releasing at $350.

Well, Krillin has quite the fancy tablet. That's probably the reason for the increased price.

I imagine it's safe to assume that Orbis/Durango will be launching at around $400. It's not unreasonable, I don't think. As some people predicted long ago, this looks to be a repeat of PS3/360/Wii again. Both Orbis and Durango will be quite similar.