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[i-Lo]

So this cements the fact that Orbis will be mor powerful than Durango and by some amount. Better GPU and GDDR5 RAM.

On paper it seems that way. But it is in the best interest of third party to ensure parity for their multiplatform projects. True potential for both consoles will be unlocked by the first parties for both. XB3 looks to be no slouch and I expect 343, Turn 10 to really push the technical boundaries.

Instead of bringing up points to counter mine let's just call me a fanboy and be done with it I guess?

Really if you think the PS4 will match a 2012 high end PC with a i7 and a GTX 690 you're out of your mind.

Your words, not mine.

 

[gofreak]

I just don't see timed exclusivity being a big deal next gen. Both MS and Sony have rules that require additional content for any late ports AFAIK, which is not very appealing to publishers.

I'm sure it can be made appealing. And it's not hard to bundle in DLC or other things to make an 'improved' version later.

I think there'll be timed exclusives a-go-go in the first year or two. Messy, but it'll probably shake out eventually.

 

[Clay Davis]

So this cements the fact that Orbis will be mor powerful than Durango and by some amount. Better GPU and GDDR5 RAM.

surprising then, that the edge article claimed that orbis was only 'slightly' more powerful? which is it? are you saying edge is wrong?

It’s clear Sony has designed a system that, on paper, outperforms Microsoft’s next Xbox. One source familiar with both platforms tells us that in real terms Sony’s console is “slightly more powerful” and “very simple to work with”.

 

[Pooya]

Interesting.


Bunch of number crunchers here said 4x and 8x MSAA couldn't happen with the numbers we were given. (Don't think they were specifically referring to FSAA).

err, 10 year old GPUs 'support' 8xMSAA, it doesn't mean you can effectively use it in games and have the performance, with these bandwidth you're not getting 8x MSAA anywhere, that's assuming it's not ALU limited, There will be other priorities with these specs for games.

supporting a feature is one thing, being capable of it is another. ps360 'support' 1080p for example.

 

[AOC83]

Looks (if the rumours are true) like a crappy casual-/kinectbox.
No thanks Microsoft.

 

[Appollowexx]

The difference going from PS3 / XBOX 360 to Durango / PS4 will be, I'm willing to bet, just as significant as PS2 to PS3. This is because the current generation has gone on for far longer than usual, many years more in fact. Advances in technology have come a long way since the 360 released in 2005.

Just look at that Agni's Philosophy tech demo, or Star Wars 1313 (Likely a cross platform title). I'd say both of these are a major jump visually and are both early in the life cycle of the new systems.

 

[mrklaw]

Well my line of thinking is that unless you were always planning on getting one or the other, again due to corporate bias, there's no real reason to have a decision locked up at this point. It's unlikely that we'll see any major franchises at launch, so using exclusives as an excuse doesn't make much sense IMO.

I know so far it's looking like I'll get a PS4 first and the Durango (and Wii-U) down the road, but that can change over the next year.

same. I also don't really get comments about moving 360-720 and PS3-PS4 because of PSN/XBL. Even if MS/Sony allow you to carry your PSN/XBL tag across to the new machines, most of your friends list initially won't be online so the critical mass that draws people to a common platform won't be there at first.

Perfect time to switch platforms IMO, and there is the potential for MS to get quite a lot of churn.

 

[Paracelsus]

Your words, not mine.

Different approaches, PS4 will be able to run Agni's Philosophy, you to achieve the same quality will 100% guaranteed need

a i7 and a GTX 690

Just like you needed a beastly PC to play Gears of War back in 2006.

 

[Kagari]

I'm sure it can be made appealing. And it's not hard to bundle in DLC or other things to make an 'improved' version later.

I think there'll be timed exclusives a-go-go in the first year or two. Messy, but it'll probably shake out eventually.

And I don't think it'll be one-sided either like it was earlier this generation.

 

[FordGTGuy]

On paper it seems that way. But it is in the best interest of third party to ensure parity for their multiplatform projects. True potential for both consoles will be unlocked by the first parties for both. XB3 looks to be no slouch and I expect 343, Turn 10 to really push the technical boundaries.



Your words, not mine.

Actually no they are not my words, thanks for noticing.

720 seems like mid range PC. I mean... it looks on par with what you could have back in 2008 power wise.
While PS4 seems more like high range PC. More like 2011/2012.

If there is a better way to describe a 2011-2012 high range PC you tell me.

 

[velociraptor]

The difference going from PS3 / XBOX 360 to Durango / PS4 will be, I'm willing to bet, just as significant as PS2 to PS3. This is because the current generation has gone on for far longer than usual, many years more in fact. Advances in technology have come a long way since the 360 released in 2005.

Just look at that Agni's Philosophy tech demo, or Star Wars 1313 (Likely a cross platform title). I'd say both of these are a major jump visually and are both early in the life cycle of the new systems.

Good enough for me then.

As long as we have that same 'generational leap', how 'weak' these consoles may be next to PCs is going to be irrelevent.

 

[Honey Bunny]

3rd console curse

fixed

 

[gundamkyoukai]

It renewed confidence in Sony's direction. I don't know if they have a preference at this point but it seems Sony was keeping a lot close to their chest before January. A lot of devs didn't know what was going on with them or what the final target specs would be and were particularly worried about the RAM situation. Newest kits and target specs are powerful with the added bonus of being really easy to work with.

I remember a fair amount of us saying that was what Sony was doing .
Sony look like there were using there input from 1st devs longer while keeping most 3rd parties in the dark .
Now that they update everyone devs seem happy and Sony starting the hype train .

 

[DieH@rd]

Until we have them in hand no cost comparison can be done. I am postulating based on specs and availability of hardware that Sony will have a cost advantage, assuming they use 8x 4Gb GDDR5 chips rather than 16x 2Gb ones. MS will be using 16x 4Gbit DDR3 chips initially which will increase motherboard complexity and cooling requirements.

At the very least, it means MS will not have a cost advantage as is currently assumed given the lesser power. Having 4Gb chips from the off halves the cost of the most expensive component in Orbis and MS are giving away their GPU savings for ESRAM on the APU.

Cape Verde is 123mm^2, with the extra CUs that pushes it to ~ 150mm^2, the ESRAM adds a further 40mm^2 and adds complexity which will depress yields.

Pitcarin is 212mm^2 but Sony haven't got all 20CUs, whether that is down to yields or they have removed them altogether is not known. The difference is not significant (and if Sony have removed the extra 2 CUs then it's non existent), and given the lesser complexity of Sony's APU, it will have higher yields.

So there you have it. Numbers.

You numbers are wrong. ESRAM uses 6 transistors per one bit. 32MB of ESRAM is therefore 1.5 BILLION transistors [6*8*32000000], or ~123 mm2 at 28nm. If you want source of Durango's [potential] bad yields, there you have it. 32MB ESRAM is larger than octacore Jaguar.

 

[see5harp]

Agreed.

Couldn't care less about Sony or MS.

I go with the "Living Room Windows Box (Durango) vs True Gamers Console(Orbis)"-theme for my hype towards the PS4.

Your mileage may vary, off course...

True Gamer right here.

 

[statham]

this was posted in the other thread last week by SlickShoesRUCrazy

Just Listened to What The Tech.
52:00 mark roughly, Paul Thurrot asked about the next generation xbox.
Said certain specs that are out in the wild are wrong and things have changed. don't know if he is talking about the vgleaks stuff or the Yukon stuff leaked from 2010. He didn't go into those specifics.

Also once against mentioned that there is going to be multiple machines.

http://winsupersite.com/podcasts/what-tech-150-office-365
did we figure out what leak he was talking about?

 

[abadguy]

Looks (if the rumours are true) like a crappy casual-/kinectbox.
No thanks Microsoft.

Looking at your avatar , something tells me you were never buying one anyway...

Again just funny watching a console get written off without seeing a single game running on it.

 

[i-Lo]

Different approaches, PS4 will be able to run Agni's Philosophy, you to achieve the same quality will 100% guaranteed need



Just like you needed a beastly PC to play Gears of War back in 2006.

I am not doubting the capabilities of what results can be attained on a closed box with strict adherence to a resolution and framerate. I also have no illusions that it does not possess the raw power of i7 paired with GTX690 and appropriate RAM amount.

Actually no they are not my words, thanks for noticing.



If there is a better way to describe a 2011-2012 high range PC you tell me.

Then it was your assumption. My comment did not pertain to that for which you commented at all.

 

[metareferential]

They'll just be more blown away by Sony's if the specs for both match up to these leaks.

It really depends on the game.

It's not that PS4 will be that more powerful, like seeing a game on a console and then playing its port on a high-end pc.

Differencies for the crowd aren't going to be that clear.

Same way people argue whether or not Halo 4, Horizon, Gears 3 look better than Uncharted 3, GoW and such.

And since these machines will be capable of much, much more than ps360, the difference is only really going to be visible on multiplat titles (since there's something to compare).

Unless Ms completely dismiss its first party games, treating them like "normal" games. Sony's commitment in showcasing its consoles capabilities is something else.

 

[Wynnebeck]

And I don't think it'll be one-sided either like it was earlier this generation.

Well that's where I'm expecting Sony and Microsoft to rely on those 3rd party relations they built up during this gen to shine. Sony has been making nice with Ubisoft and EA when it comes to stuff like exclusive DLC and the like and I'd expect them to jump on that for next gen as soon as possible. It can only bode well for Sony and MS to have architecture that will make games easier to code for in the long run.

Looking at your avatar , something tells me you were never buying one anyway...

So we are using avatars to make broad generalizations? Good grief.

 

[Appollowexx]

And I don't think it'll be one-sided either like it was earlier this generation.

Care to wager we get a Final Fantasy exclusive at either PS Meeting or E3? Although I'm not really the gambling kind, just seems like something that could happen potentially.

Spoiler

Versus XIII

 

[Krabardaf]

Interesting.


Bunch of number crunchers here said 4x and 8x MSAA couldn't happen with the numbers we were given. (Don't think they were specifically referring to FSAA).

Every GPU support that since the stone age. It doesn't mean it's reasonable to use it.

 

[AgentP]

Interesting.


Bunch of number crunchers here said 4x and 8x MSAA couldn't happen with the numbers we were given. (Don't think they were specifically referring to FSAA).

The 32MB is not enough to support a 1080P 4xAA without tiling. Devs hate tiling...

 

[FordGTGuy]

I am not doubting the capabilities of what results can be attained on a closed box with strict adherence to a resolution and framerate. I also have no illusions that it does not possess the raw power of i7 paired with GTX690 and appropriate RAM amount.



Then it was your assumption. My comment did not pertain to that for which you commented at all.

I'm sorry but you responded my response to his response how is it that my fault?

 

[Proelite]

You numbers are wrong. ESRAM uses 6 transistors per one bit. 32MB of ESRAM is therefore 1.5 BILLION transistors [6*8*32000000], or ~123 mm2 at 28nm. If you want source of Durango's [potential] bad yields, there you have it. 32MB ESRAM is larger than octacore Jaguar.

Depends on if its IT SRAM or real SRAM.

60 mm^2 vs 120 mm^2.

 

[i-Lo]

The 32MB is not enough to support a 1080P 4xAA without tiling. Devs hate tiling...

Perhaps FXAA combined with 2xMSAA is a better option?

 

[Bsigg12]

Care to wager we get a Final Fantasy exclusive at either PS Meeting or E3? Although I'm not really the gambling kind, just seems like something that could happen potentially.

Spoiler

Versus XIII

The Square Enix/Sony relationship is so busted now that I wouldn't be surprised if, if Versus XIII is ever spoken of again, it's a multi plat game. Microsoft made some gains this generation in establishing a relationship with SquareEnix so I doubt, unless Sony drops some cash for the exclusive, Microsoft will be missing out on many if not any major SquareEnix releases next gen.

The 32MB is not enough to support a 1080P 4xAA without tiling. Devs hate tiling...

You need to stop looking at this as a PC. In regards to the consoles, developers have much more access (low level access) to the GPU and everything about it. With a PC, Windows locks down parts of the GPU and reserves it. Having a closed system like the 360 or PS3 has allowed developers to make 7-8 year old hardware do some pretty fancy things within the last year.

Until we see actual gameplay running on each system, comparing these to PCs is pointless because we don't know what the SDK is openly allowing developers to get to without needing to build in tricks to their engines.

 

[abadguy]

Well that's where I'm expecting Sony and Microsoft to rely on those 3rd party relations they built up during this gen to shine. Sony has been making nice with Ubisoft and EA when it comes to stuff like exclusive DLC and the like and I'd expect them to jump on that for next gen as soon as possible. It can only bode well for Sony and MS to have architecture that will make games easier to code for in the long run.




So we are using avatars to make broad generalizations? Good grief.

I dunno man, you see a guy with an Avatar of a Sony exec shitting on a "rival" console that isn't even out yet it's easy to assume they have a bias going on. But whatever. I'll just wait to see some games before i go declaring winners...

 

[SneakyStephan]

You numbers are wrong. ESRAM uses 6 transistors per one bit. 32MB of ESRAM is therefore 1.5 BILLION transistors [6*8*32000000], or ~123 mm2 at 28nm. If you want source of Durango's [potential] bad yields, there you have it. 32MB ESRAM is larger than octacore Jaguar.

1.5b transistors? GG MS your ESRAM to compensate for the ddr3 is as big as the 7770 equivalent gpu you put in the console. (1.5b transistors as well).

This just seems so far off the deep end when it comes to making a balance system.

Also this thing isn't going to be appropriately priced for its performance either then...

 

[FordGTGuy]

Perhaps FXAA combined with 2xMSAA is a better option?

Horizon actually does 4x AA with FXAA at 720p would be nice to see launch games match that at 1080p.

I dunno man, you see a guy with an Avatar of a Sony exec shitting on a "rival" console that isn't even out yet it's easy to assume they have a bias going on.

Lol.

 

[Krabardaf]

Perhaps FXAA combined with 2xMSAA?

Perhaps Durango ESRAM doesn't serve the exact same purpose as 360's EDRAM.

For example if the RAM is 68Go/s (still 70% the speed of ESRAM) and if it's possible to write buffers in it, isn't it possible to write some buffers there and the others in the ESRAM?

Also, the people thinking they could easily have done better than a whole R&D team working for years should reconsider their actual job.

 

[UrbanRats]

How important are the number of cores, as opposed to the clock of each one, in the CPU? (i know this thread is about to GPU, but still).

 

[mugurumakensei]

Perhaps FXAA combined with 2xMSAA is a better option?

Combining antialiasing solutions is a bad idea for image quality.

 

[KageMaru]

I hope y'all realize that regardless of how you feel, about these numbers 90% of the people here are going to be hyped as fuck and blown away once they see some exclusives for either system.

Yeah, this I agree with. My financial situation will matter most. If both impress me, I might get both, but it would take impressive exclusives on both consoles to do that. Otherwise I'll get the more powerful of the two since most of the games I play are multi-plat titles.

1080p with 2xMSAA is what'll fit in eSRAM at once.

You can render into DDR3 or tile to fit a bigger buffer in eSRAM if you want. That comes with tradeoffs, but might as well support higher MSAA modes if a developer does want to target that and do the necessary elsewhere to make it happen.

Things get messy when dealing with deferred rendering though, which most engines now do.

I'm sure it can be made appealing. And it's not hard to bundle in DLC or other things to make an 'improved' version later.

I think there'll be timed exclusives a-go-go in the first year or two. Messy, but it'll probably shake out eventually.

Yeah, you're right. Timed exclusive titles don't really bother me, it's the exclusive DLC that is very annoying.

same. I also don't really get comments about moving 360-720 and PS3-PS4 because of PSN/XBL. Even if MS/Sony allow you to carry your PSN/XBL tag across to the new machines, most of your friends list initially won't be online so the critical mass that draws people to a common platform won't be there at first.

Perfect time to switch platforms IMO, and there is the potential for MS to get quite a lot of churn.

Agreed. My friends will still be there when I eventually pick up whatever console they are on anyways. =p

 

[Shadow of the BEAST]

To me it looks like like orbis is this gens equivalent of dreamcast or gamecube.

well designed bang for the buck hardware with the emphasis on the buck.


Whereas durango looks like it lacks any equal. Its blue ocean with out nintendos retarded cheapness.

As it looks like now id take orbis over durango anyday of the week. But im still generally disappointed.

 

[Limanima]

The specs in the PS4/720 blow away the 360/PS3, significantly.

The available memory alone is already a big step from previous gen.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Can anyone explain the Orbis spec bump that aegies mentioned? Is it just the Memory going 2GB>4GB or is there more to it?

Looking at the road map VGLeaks put out there doesn't seem to be anything else or I'm missing something.

 

[FordGTGuy]

Combining antialiasing solutions is a bad idea for image quality.

Forza Horizon says otherwise.

 

[derFeef]

I hope y'all realize that regardless of how you feel, about these numbers 90% of the people here are going to be hyped as fuck and blown away once they see some exclusives for either system.

Hell yeah.

Combining antialiasing solutions is a bad idea for image quality.

Alan Wake (also on PC, MSAA+FXAA is wonderful) and Forza Horizon disagree with you.

 

[Reiko]

Combining antialiasing solutions is a bad idea for image quality.

Not really.

You're going to see jaggies even if by going pure MSAA.

You're going to be seeing sub pixel aliasing by going pure PPAA.

 

[i-Lo]

Combining antialiasing solutions is a bad idea for image quality.

IIRC, Agni's Philosophy ran it at 8xMSAA+FXAA.

 

[phosphor112]

That's the part that confuses me. Just reading the current Durango spec leaks causes confusion.

The fill rate alone should negate what he's saying. If the specs ARE true, Orbis can have double frame rate than a Durango 30fps game just because it can.

 

[HollovVpo1nt]

Even if Microsoft went through this generation like you said it most definitely would not be gameover for Microsoft....

I think your definition of success differs from MS's definition...

MS wants a broad device for a good price sold at minimal losses (or profit), MS is fine with being 30% behind Sony if they can get an advantage on the bottomline...

There is a world outside of the US. Microsofts advantages in the services departments are non-existent here. Microsoft will push for an all-round living room device, but such devices are supported by services. Again, they're non-existent here service wise (Europe).

 

[tinfoilhatman]

If Microsoft can get it out the door on launch day for 299$ they have a winner....might not be a bad strategy in the current economy....a system launched for 399-599$ may be a tough sell right now.

We'll see how it all shakes out, either way I'm not really excited about next gen as it sits right now.

 

[Jack_AG]

But it is in the best interest of third party to ensure parity for their multiplatform projects.

No. It is in OUR best interest as GAMERS that we get the best possible version on each specific console - not reach for parity if there is a known divide.

Some people will purchase solely based on power alone and want to see that in games. Not pushing each console individually means that one console will get shafted every time.

I could care less for which console has more oomph - but I do care that devs do the best they can with both pieces of hardware and not half-ass anything.

 

[Paracelsus]

IIRC, Agni's Philosophy ran it at 8xMSAA+FXAA.

If you have 8xMSAA you can leave it at that, FXAA is the icing.

 

[cyberheater]

The 32MB is not enough to support a 1080P 4xAA without tiling. Devs hate tiling...

I would imagine that Xbox 360 devs are used to it by now. An maybe the dev tools would do it automagically.

 

[Wynnebeck]

I dunno man, you see a guy with an Avatar of a Sony exec shitting on a "rival" console that isn't even out yet it's easy to assume they have a bias going on. But whatever. I'll just wait to see some games before i go declaring winners...

Well no need to start slinging around labels because he might have possibly hurt your feelings. Just ignore him and move on.

To me it looks like like orbis is this gens equivalent of dreamcast or gamecube.

Uhh, neither of those fill me with confidence when comparing them to a new console.

 

[LifEndz]

Dat MS bias bleeding through with every post you make.

I'm getting the same vibe from him, although it's nothing new. I thought he would reset that to zero with new hardware coming, but it looks like that isn't the case.

 

[i-Lo]

No. It is in OUR best interest as GAMERS that we get the best possible version on each specific console - not reach for parity if there is a known divide.

Some people will purchase solely based on power alone and want to see that in games. Not pushing each console individually means that one console will get shafted every time.

I could care less for which console has more oomph - but I do care that devs do the best they can with both pieces of hardware and not half-ass anything.

My opinion differs because I have seen my friends who only have a PS3 get shafted by bad/broken ports. I have always wondered whether it was ethical to ask for the same compensation for the poorer version.