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Lightning - "Why the hate?"

K

KiN0

Member
Lightning is just very underdeveloped to me. She's had roles in 3 games and i still feel like I don't know anything about her.
 
MagiusNecros

MagiusNecros

Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
KiN0 said:
Lightning is just very underdeveloped to me. She's had roles in 3 games and i still feel like I don't know anything about her.
Click to expand...

That's what happens when you make characters have a lifechanging realization in a single cutscene and that's all they get.
 
C

Conrad Link

Member
I like Lightning, like, really like her I think she is cool.

But I don't understand why SE like her that much lol, even I was like uh ok with some of the crazyness.
 
L

LuuKyK

Member
MagiusNecros said:
I don't think there's much point in explaining further. I mean unless you can write me a detailed report on the character of Lightning explaining to me how dynamic of a character she is then by all means, until then she remains a static character which has succumbed to the writing prowess of Motomu Toriyama and even moreso later on Daisuke Watanabe who is actually a worse writer due to different writing techniques.

XIII: Save Serah
XIII-2: Save Lightning
LR(XIII-3):Save Serah again 200-300 years later
Click to expand...

Well I already did, and countless times in countless threads in the past. I expected you to know that though, since you are commited to quote everything I post in these threads, But anyway. Lightning is indeed dynamic. I mean, in the beginning of XIII we have a hopeless character. She just lost her parents, is struggling to survive in a job that is not the fittest for who the society expect her to be. At the same time, the world she lives in is udergoing a massive and complex debate/questioning of who is good and who is bad. All the xenophobic treatment towards the Pulse people and the war. If that wasnt already enough she has to be able to protect her younger sister who now looks up to her as the mom and dad that she doesnt have anymore. The fact that she is overprotective about Serah is actually quite endearing, seeing as how much she rejects her relationship with Snow. I mean, she cares about her, she is the one her parents asked to take care of Serah, why all of sudden this guy appears and wants to play the role she is supposed to be playing. And why is Serah so open to him, sometimes even more than she is to her. All this is clear when you play the game and shows how non-onedimensional Lightning actually is. The fact that she struggles to deal with this throught the game is even more impressing for me because she has to work WITH Snow while trying to bring back Serah to life, who, funny enough, is the one she was trying to get AWAY from Snow. All and all in the end of the game she is able to overcome all this past/historic hate she grew about Snow and accept their love, and comes to understand there are diferent kinds of approaches as to how someone loves the other. Serah was still her sister, and was Snow's fiancee, that would not interefere in the way Serah looked up to her at all. And thats what she saw in the ending of XIII. The fun/sad fact is that in XIII-2 she was actually imprisioned in Valhalla and had to change roles, and now its Serah, the one she is supposed to protect that have to go looking for her. How bad she must have felt? All that work for nothing? How safe was Serah? There was nothing she could do. Its such a desperate time that she had to actually reach for Serah to ask for help. Isnt this a progress and clear change in her personality. She was able to ask help for the one she refused to let go of her wings in XIII. She even asked help for someone she didnt even know (Noel) and eventually let Snow help too. This all proves that all the claims that point to the fact that is bland, boring, one dimensional, etc are very false, at least imo. It really is a dynamic development throughout the two games, she went from one extreme to another. I cant wait to see how she deals when the focus is not on her or Serah in Lightning Returns. She now has something much bigger on her hands, I mean she is trying to save the world, the responsability does stack up at this point. Interesting times ahead.
 
V

viewtiful_dru

Member
- cool character design
ff13-lightning-sit.jpg

(cmon, don't front this was awesome when you first saw it)
- cool animations
- fun to use in the game

- NO PERSONALITY
- (and my minor gripe) for someone that is supposed to be in the military, she's built like a supermodel, not a soldier. she doesn't have to look like Man Shoulders Meryl
iB3OIGdCIMGMz.png


but some muscle tone would be nice. After all, she's supposed to have trained, right?
 
F

funkystudent

Member
I didnt hate her I just hated her shitty friends.


She was boring.

Now her sister. I hated her and her being the main character was the sole reason I havent bothered with XIII-2
 
A

anaron

Member
LuuKyK said:
Well I already did, and countless times in countless threads in the past. I expected you to know that though, since you are commited to quote everything I post in these threads, But anyway. Lightning is indeed dynamic. I mean, in the beginning of XIII we have a hopeless character. She just lost her parents, is struggling to survive in a job that is not the fittest for who the society expect her to be. At the same time, the world she lives in is udergoing a massive and complex debate/questioning of who is good and who is bad. All the xenophobic treatment towards the Pulse people and the war. If that wasnt already enough she has to be able to protect her younger sister who now looks up to her as the mom and dad that she doesnt have anymore. The fact that she is overprotective about Serah is actually quite endearing, seeing as how much she rejects her relationship with Snow. I mean, she cares about her, she is the one her parents asked to take care of Serah, why all of sudden this guy appears and wants to play the role she is supposed to be playing. And why is Serah so open to him, sometimes even more than she is to her. All this is clear when you play the game and shows how non-onedimensional Lightning actually is. The fact that she struggles to deal with this throught the game is even more impressing for me because she has to work WITH Snow while trying to bring back Serah to life, who, funny enough, is the one she was trying to get AWAY from Snow. All and all in the end of the game she is able to overcome all this past/historic hate she grew about Snow and accept their love, and comes to understand there are diferent kinds of approaches as to how someone loves the other. Serah was still her sister, and was Snow's fiancee, that would not interefere in the way Serah looked up to her at all. And thats what she saw in the ending of XIII. The fun/sad fact is that in XIII-2 she was actually imprisioned in Valhalla and had to change roles, and now its Serah, the one she is supposed to protect that have to go looking for her. How bad she must have felt? All that work for nothing? How safe was Serah? There was nothing she could do. Its such a desperate time that she had to actually reach for Serah to ask for help. Isnt this a progress and clear change in her personality. She was able to ask help for the one she refused to let go of her wings in XIII. She even asked help for someone she didnt even know (Noel) and eventually let Snow help too. This all proves that all the claims that point to the fact that is bland, boring, one dimensional, etc are very false, at least imo. It really is a dynamic development throughout the two games, she went from one extreme to another. I cant wait to see how she deals when the focus is not on her or Serah in Lightning Returns. She now has something much bigger on her hands, I mean she is trying to save the world, the responsability does stack up at this point. Interesting times ahead.
Click to expand...

g555o.gif
 
E

Esura

Banned
MagiusNecros said:
Well she is supposed to as the supposed chosen of Bunnybelts now. But her main interest as always is "Serah".

And yes I'm stuck on Fire Emblem as well. Just started Hard mode.
Click to expand...

She got to put Serah on the side burner right now and stop the progression of Chaos.

I'm on Normal/Casual...like a wimp. :(
 
MagiusNecros

MagiusNecros

Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Esura said:
She got to put Serah on the side burner right now and stop the progression of Chaos.

I'm on Normal/Casual...like a wimp. :(
Click to expand...

I was on Normal Classic.

I played Hard just now and woah.

anaron said:
g555o.gif
Click to expand...

Yeah I can't take that seriously with the poor formatting.

I will say this. Lightning lost her parents at 15(and in XIII she's what 20, 21? Grow the fuck up) and her father went on a mission and never returned thus asspulling his existence to nothing. I'll probably break it down tomorrow.
 
KrM DeLorean

KrM DeLorean

Member
BocoDragon said:
I can imagine liking her if you spend most of your time looking at her art and listening to the soundtrack and fantasizing about what she could represent... but in game, she is cardboard. A series of pretentious monologues that mean far less than you probably think.
Click to expand...
All of this.
 
C

Coxy

Member
if she was a person, she'd be an astoundingly shitty person, as it is she's a combination of terrible misconceptions about strong female characters combined with bad writing in general
 
E

Esura

Banned
MagiusNecros said:
Too early to judge. Have to wait on Aversa and see what her support is like, but my favorite so far is Say'ri.
Click to expand...

Lucina is my favorite. Like a cooler, less whiny and bitchy version of Saber Arturia.

Also Tharja cause she is like one step away from yandere territory.
 
G

gurudyne

Member
Esura said:
Like I know who Cena is but...the comparison is lost on me.
Click to expand...

Cena is the Wesley Crusher of professional wrestling, just like Lightning is to the FF(XIII) franchise at the moment. The character itself isn't so bad--it's how they are framed. All are presented to the audience as being greater than they are due to their creator's pride/corporate ass covering to prevent money loss, each is shoved down your throat at the cost of having something interesting presented instead and every time you see one of them, you want someone to beat them with a shovel just to end your everlasting annoyance. They are creative failures that just won't evolve or go away.
 
S

Squire

Banned
Esura said:
Not if appearances is what makes that character good to that person. I don't see how that would be a non-factor.
Click to expand...

You don't understand the argument. That's okay. My first reply covers people like you.

That's all there is to Lightning, if anything. She has no personality and she's the most boring textbook definition of beauty. She's a shallow non-character appreciated by very shallow individuals.
Click to expand...
 
C

Conciliator

Banned
She's a bit of a blank slate. But there are certainly worse Square characters, and her design is cool and her VA is fine.

EDIT: Good lord you guys go hard with your Lightning hate.

EDIT: And love for that matter.
 
E

Esura

Banned
gurudyne said:
Cena is the Wesley Crusher of professional wrestling, just like Lightning is to the FF(XIII) franchise at the moment. The character itself isn't so bad--it's how they are framed. All are presented to the audience as being greater than they are due to their creator's pride/corporate ass covering to prevent money loss, each is shoved down your throat at the cost of having something interesting presented instead and every time you see one of them, you want someone to beat them with a shovel just to end your everlasting annoyance. They are creative failures that just won't evolve or go away.
Click to expand...

Ah, I see. Thanks for explaining this to me.

Inorigo said:
You don't understand the argument. That's okay. My first reply covers people like you.
Click to expand...

I'm not shallow.
 
E

Empty

Member
only played xiii but i think she's okay. i don't find her particularly rich or enjoyable or worthy of three games about her but i think given the style of character they were going for she's let down by the rest of the cast who should be providing the range and are more awful. i'd rather her than hope or snow.
 
M

Midou

Member
She is like a female Cloud with less personality than Squall.

"..." and "Whatever" were more personality defining than anything Lightning went through in both XIII games.

I think the story among people who like her so much is "Lightning is so hot, I wish she was mai waifu, I am going to invent fanfiction and pretend every scene she was in had more significance than it really had, just because she is so important to me, she might be one dimensional but my love for her exists in full 3D."
 
D

DJIzana

Member
Because Square Enix gave her 3 games before I get Versus.

The fact that they haven't said a goddamn peep is because they don't want that to overshadow her, or likely XIV ARR. That ROYALLY pisses me off like no other.........
 
K

kayos90

Tragic victim of fan death
LuuKyK said:
Well I already did, and countless times in countless threads in the past. I expected you to know that though, since you are commited to quote everything I post in these threads,

But anyway. Lightning is indeed dynamic. I mean, in the beginning of XIII we have a hopeless character. She just lost her parents, is struggling to survive in a job that is not the fittest for who the society expect her to be. At the same time, the world she lives in is udergoing a massive and complex debate/questioning of who is good and who is bad. All the xenophobic treatment towards the Pulse people and the war. If that wasnt already enough she has to be able to protect her younger sister who now looks up to her as the mom and dad that she doesnt have anymore. The fact that she is overprotective about Serah is actually quite endearing, seeing as how much she rejects her relationship with Snow. I mean, she cares about her, she is the one her parents asked to take care of Serah, why all of sudden this guy appears and wants to play the role she is supposed to be playing. And why is Serah so open to him, sometimes even more than she is to her. All this is clear when you play the game and shows how non-onedimensional Lightning actually is. The fact that she struggles to deal with this throught the game is even more impressing for me because she has to work WITH Snow while trying to bring back Serah to life, who, funny enough, is the one she was trying to get AWAY from Snow.

All and all in the end of the game she is able to overcome all this past/historic hate she grew about Snow and accept their love, and comes to understand there are diferent kinds of approaches as to how someone loves the other. Serah was still her sister, and was Snow's fiancee, that would not interefere in the way Serah looked up to her at all. And thats what she saw in the ending of XIII. The fun/sad fact is that in XIII-2 she was actually imprisioned in Valhalla and had to change roles, and now its Serah, the one she is supposed to protect that have to go looking for her. How bad she must have felt? All that work for nothing? How safe was Serah? There was nothing she could do. Its such a desperate time that she had to actually reach for Serah to ask for help. Isnt this a progress and clear change in her personality. She was able to ask help for the one she refused to let go of her wings in XIII. She even asked help for someone she didnt even know (Noel) and eventually let Snow help too.

This all proves that all the claims that point to the fact that is bland, boring, one dimensional, etc are very false, at least imo. It really is a dynamic development throughout the two games, she went from one extreme to another. I cant wait to see how she deals when the focus is not on her or Serah in Lightning Returns. She now has something much bigger on her hands, I mean she is trying to save the world, the responsability does stack up at this point. Interesting times ahead.
Click to expand...

Holy shit dude. Use paragraphs.

I will edit this post in once I can read this.

1.) She didn't JUST lose her parents. It was a long time ago. Not only that but it was told in a short meaningless flashback. No foreshadowing. No development. Nada.

2.) There is no debate or questioning. The citizens of Coccoon are pretty deadset on the beliefs that Pulse is bad. Period.

3.) She's not being overprotective of Serah. She just thinks Snow is stupid. Her caring for Serah is something she finds out in retrospect and comes out in the form of regret. This isn't to say that Lightning doesn't care. She does. However her rejection of Snow and Serah's relationship isn't based off of overprotection.

4.) This actually doesn't happen. Lightning splits away from Snow refusing to work with him altogether. It's only she realizes during her time AWAY from Snow that she begins to understand more and accepting of the situation. Snow's presence had nothing to do with this at all. This is also not a development because it's more of an epiphany at best. Completely out of nowhere and a plot point thrown in to make the story coherent. Not good.

5.) This isn't portrayed at all. Lightning is devoid of personality altogether in the sequel and only serves as a goal and purpose to move the plot along. Simply that. Nothing more. If they were trying to express her emotions then they did a shit job of it.

6.) No. All you did was point out that your entire argument lacks facts and anything coherent altogether. You didn't assemble a sound argument. Rather, you pieced together as you saw fit and try to sell us on the idea of what Lightning is, which in reality she isn't. Aka, you pulled a Toriyama.
 
E

EurAsianGirl

Banned
Because she's not Tifa. :p

Also, she's boring, tries too hard to be "bad-ass" and is Square's milking cow for the FFXIII franchise.

Oh and she's delaying VSXIII and KH3!
 
MagiusNecros

MagiusNecros

Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Esura said:
Lucina is my favorite. Like a cooler, less whiny and bitchy version of Saber Arturia.

Also Tharja cause she is like one step away from yandere territory.
Click to expand...

I picked Tharja for my first playthrough.

I got a barrack scene where she cast a hex to make MU look younger. LOL
 
P

piratepwnsninja

Member
I don't have a problem with her. She has more personality than Mr. ... Squall ever did. "Oh, but he totally opened up and fell in love!" Yeah, no. By far my least favorite FF lead.
 
M

MormaPope

Banned
If I had to describe FFXIII's story and characters, I'd say it's a hybrid of the 1978 movie Grease, Battlefield Earth, and the Star Wars prequels. Why the movie Grease?

Because Lighting straight up thinks Snow is crummy guy to marry her sister, Lightning thinks he's just a snobbish man that's a bum. Why is that a dumb plot point? Because the entire fucking planet is either turning into crystals/monsters or slaughtering people so they can stop the crystal/monster process.

Why should the player give any heed or attention to a romance when the planet's societies and civilizations are getting all sorts of fucked up? It's hard for me to care for characters I just met in the middle of crisis and their priorities are thrown at the player in a scatterbrained fashion.

Sure, there is a story in FFXIII, but the actual storytelling is abysmal. Almost every "emotional" or "touching" scene reminds me of the dead kid at the start of Mass Effect 3, you're supposed to care because the designer is telling you to care.
 
K

kayos90

Tragic victim of fan death
piratepwnsninja said:
I don't have a problem with her. She has more personality than Mr. ... Squall ever did. "Oh, but he totally opened up and fell in love!" Yeah, no. By far my least favorite FF lead.
Click to expand...

Well... in FFVIII's defense, the story's archetype isn't that uncommon.
 
MagiusNecros

MagiusNecros

Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Esura said:
That's who I picked too. Would of picked Lucina if she actually gave my Avatar more children than just Morgan.
Click to expand...

Protip, all Marth units can use any Falchion.

You probably knew that though.

Currently trying to get all supports.
 
E

Esura

Banned
MagiusNecros said:
Protip, all Marth units can use any Falchion.

You probably knew that though.

Currently trying to get all supports.
Click to expand...

Actually, I didn't but that's good to know.

Good luck with getting all the supports. I'm 40 hours in at Chapter 14 just getting enough support for pairing. Probably Youtube the rest of the supports.
 
L

LuuKyK

Member
kayos90 said:
Holy shit dude. Use paragraphs.

I will edit this post in once I can read this.

1.) She didn't JUST lose her parents. It was a long time ago. Not only that but it was told in a short meaningless flashback. No foreshadowing. No development. Nada.

2.) There is no debate or questioning. The citizens of Coccoon are pretty deadset on the beliefs that Pulse is bad. Period.

3.) She's not being overprotective of Serah. She just thinks Snow is stupid. Her caring for Serah is something she finds out in retrospect and comes out in the form of regret. This isn't to say that Lightning doesn't care. She does. However her rejection of Snow and Serah's relationship isn't based off of overprotection.

4.) This actually doesn't happen. Lightning splits away from Snow refusing to work with him altogether. It's only she realizes during her time AWAY from Snow that she begins to understand more and accepting of the situation. Snow's presence had nothing to do with this at all. This is also not a development because it's more of an epiphany at best. Completely out of nowhere and a plot point thrown in to make the story coherent. Not good.

5.) This isn't portrayed at all. Lightning is devoid of personality altogether in the sequel and only serves as a goal and purpose to move the plot along. Simply that. Nothing more. If they were trying to express her emotions then they did a shit job of it.

6.) No. All you did was point out that your entire argument lacks facts and anything coherent altogether. You didn't assemble a sound argument. Rather, you pieced together as you saw fit and try to sell us on the idea of what Lightning is, which in reality she isn't. Aka, you pulled a Toriyama.
Click to expand...

1) If you read episode i and episode 0 it was actually detailed how it was during her mothers final hours. And you are treating the lost of someone that close as a something easy to forget. Even if she was 17 or whatever. Its a burden you will carry for a very long time. The sadness, the wish for revenge, etc...

2) Thats what I meant by xenophobic behavior. Read again.

3) She is being overprotective, if not what is motivating her to be so agressive towards him? Just his personality? I doubt it. Vanille is as much as annoying as him, and she is just indifferent to her. Thats not just caring at all. If he was not trying to get married to Serah, I doubt she would treat him like that. Just see how she treats Sazh. Its a completely different approach, even if she is still pretty closed to him, she doesnt treat him like shit like she does with Snow.

4) Yes, the split momentarily, but they work together/fight alongside each other for a big part of the game.

5) Thats subjective. I guess.

6) And thats you and your big tendency to make assumptions and name people this and that (you did it at least two times in the last XIII thread. At least this time you werent criptic about your position as you were in those times lol). Trying to be funny/edgy or whatever with that I guess.
spit.gif
 
MagiusNecros

MagiusNecros

Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Esura said:
Actually, I didn't but that's good to know.

Good luck with getting all the supports. I'm 40 hours in at Chapter 14 just getting enough support for pairing. Probably Youtube the rest of the supports.
Click to expand...

I'm probably gonna not play hard mode until all the spotpass units get released so I can snag those and support them up.
 
Z

zeitgeist

Member
I actually really like her. Maybe not enough to be extremely pumped for 3 games with her in it though.

She was a strong female character which I thought was cool and her pets realization was one of my favourite FF moments.
 
D

Dead

well not really...yet
I really liked her, then again I liked the whole cast in XIII so what the fuck do I know
 
K

kayos90

Tragic victim of fan death
LuuKyK said:
1) If you read episode i and episode 0 it was actually detailed how it was during her mothers final hours. And you are treating the lost of someone that close as a something easy to forget. Even if she was 17 or whatever. Its a burden you will carry for a very long time. The sadness, the wish for revenge, etc...

2) Thats what I meant by xenophobic behavior. Read again.

3) She is being overprotective, if not what is motivating her to be so agressive towards him? Just his personality? I doubt it. Vanille is as much as annoying as him, and she is just indifferent to her. Thats not just caring at all. If he was not trying to get married to Serah, I doubt she would treat him like that. Just see how she treats Sazh. Its a completely different approach, even if she is still pretty closed to him, she doesnt treat him like shit like she does with Snow.

4) Yes, the split momentarily, but they work together/fight alongside each other for a big part of the game.

5) Thats subjective. I guess.

6) And thats you and your big tendency to make assumptions and name people this and that. Trying to be funny/edgy or whatever with that I guess.
Click to expand...

1.) Her mother died when she was 15. She's 20 in Episode 0. Also, she's a flat character even in this regard. I was mostly talking exclusively to the game, however.

2.) I read perfectly fine. If you read the bolded you'll find that your statements are at odds.

3.) You've just regurgitated the exact same thing previously. You've provided NOTHING new to your argument at all. Also, the bolded part, perhaps maybe... she doesn't hate Sazh like she hates Snow. Serah's pretty much a non-factor.

4.) Read my post again. You clearly didn't if you didn't understand this point based on your response.

5.) Not subjective at all. She barely shows up in the game at all. Even if she's mentioned or appears in the game it's to move things along or have an infodump. That's it. How's that subjective?

6.) No it's not. I've substantiated my posts and concluded thus. Nothing at all about being edgy. Nothing about being funny. I've stated the facts as is and revealed that you were stating something false.

EDIT: Actually after re-reading your response 3 times I've realized that you clearly didn't understand my posts. Why I don't know. You're either not understanding the meaning behind them because I wrote them horribly or you're just not reading properly. Regardless, please don't repeat responses posted previously and expect the conversation to go somewhere. Actually address the statements I made. Otherwise you're just throwing your statements at a wall expecting it to stick. It's a stupid form of discussion.
 
C

CTLance

Member
I just can't muster enough emotions to actually care about that broad. I'm biased towards female leads, but in this case I just can't be bothered.

Admittedly: FF13 and the subsequent selfdestruct of FF14v1 completely numbed me to the entire franchise, but even without that double combo her place in my FF rankings would be in peril. Blonde Pedo dude, emo kid, afro blackie and the annoying genki girl with oh so secret agenda left far far far more of an impression than that cookie cutter heroine. She just kinda tagged along.

Plus, the older I get, the less FF-compatible I seem to become. I just cannot get over the impracticality of the outfits. I cannot. It was a problem with FF10 and it sure as heck hasn't gotten any better. Yes, I know, Final Fantasy, yadda yadda. Whatever. old-man-yells-at-cloud.png
 
L

LuuKyK

Member
kayos90 said:
1.) Her mother died when she was 15. She's 20 in Episode 0. Also, she's a flat character even in this regard. I was mostly talking exclusively to the game, however.

2.) I read perfectly fine. If you read the bolded you'll find that your statements are at odds.

3.) You've just regurgitated the exact same thing previously. You've provided NOTHING new to your argument at all. Also, the bolded part, perhaps maybe... she doesn't hate Sazh like she hates Snow. Serah's pretty much a non-factor.

4.) Read my post again. You clearly didn't if you didn't understand this point based on your response.

5.) Not subjective at all. She barely shows up in the game at all. Even if she's mentioned or appears in the game it's to move things along or have an infodump. That's it. How's that subjective?

6.) No it's not. I've substantiated my posts and concluded thus. Nothing at all about being edgy. Nothing about being funny. I've stated the facts as is and revealed that you were stating something false.
Click to expand...

1) Its still a burden for her. Doesnt matter how old she was/is. Why do you keep assuming its an easy thing to forget? I am talking about the lore of the game, and it includes all the side storys, extra content or whatever its considered to be.

2) Seriously? You think there is no questioning people from pulse are not that bad? That was just the overall thinking of the society that was completely afraid of making contact from those form that place based on tradition, or whatever they were told by those that ruled that place. But do you really think there was no resistance or questioning?

3) I dont see how thats not a argument/valid opinion but whatever floats your boat.

4) How is learning to accept something she was totally aginast not a character development?

5) How is she not important, if she was the one that sent Noel after Serah for them to try and resolve all that mess? Just because she doesnt appear much doesnt mean she is not important. She is there in the decisive/important moments. Thats what matters the most for the story/plot.

6) "pulling a Toriyama" says otherwise.
 
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