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[grimshawish]

I'd be more positive of system achievements if there was some proper rewards at there centre. Just don't see why I'm suppose to be positive about something that is otherwise clutter.

Would be fine if they could take the Kid Icarus style things and create a system all games play into.

 

[NewFresh]

I get the distaste for things like a gamer score. But having achievements that can be seen by your friends does not take away from the experience. I don't need points to compare a score with someone, all I would like is to have something or somewhere where my friends can see that I beat 3D land 100%.

 

[Zarovitch]

I get the distaste for things like a gamer score. But having achievements that can be seen by your friends does not take away from the experience. I don't need points to compare a score with someone, all I would like is to have something or somewhere where my friends can see that I beat 3D land 100%.

Yeah, and every score and time you take completing a level in Mario should be visible by your friend.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Most achievements are just representations of things people have been trying to do since the beginning of gaming. If Nintendo put in an achievement system to say Super Mario Bros, they'd probably just be telling me to do all the things I was trying to do when I beat it back in the 90s.

Collect every coin in a level 10g
Reach the top of the flagpole in every level 50g

Ect ect. Its cool that Microsoft and Sony put them in and all but Nintendo/the video game industry in general has been putting secrets and collectables in games for years. I've realized that personally I couldn't care less if I get points to go along with my accomplishment. The rewarding part is actually doing it, not the recognition I get for
it with a number or digital trophy case.

 

[EVH]

Yeah, and every score and time you take completing a level in Mario should be visible by your friend.

What are ghosts in Mario Kart, then? In Mario 3D Land you have a timer that you can compare with people that you cross by Streetpass. Why not online? Or OS level? And also completing a level without being hit, like the stage I was talking about and made it so interesting. Or even with more than 100 coins, like Sunshine did, if I'm not wrong.

But obviously, optional stuff that adds replay value and gives some sort of small reward each time you achieve something, even if it is a notification.

Most achievements are just representations of things people have been trying to do since the beginning of gaming. If Nintendo put in an achievement system to say Super Mario Bros, they'd probably just be telling me to do all the things I was trying to do when I beat it back in the 90s.

Then why is it a bad thing. If people does it, it means theres fun into it. And also, what if somebody doesn't think about that things by themselves. Or because they are not from the 90s...

 

[Rehynn]

Yeah, and every score and time you take completing a level in Mario should be visible by your friend.

I would actually love to have detailed leaderboards for Mario games. But leaderboards are a different animal altogether.

 

[gioGAF]

I'm glad that Nintendo has not succumbed to the "achievement" bandwagon.

 

[Azriell]

The real answer is to combine in game achievements with OS level achievements. Completing the in game achievement give you your in game reward, and it shows you completed the challenge on your profile via an achievement. Some games already do this on the consoles, but there's no reason why all games couldn't do it.

 

[The Elite]

There's no argument I've ever read that successfully makes a valid case for system achievements being a bad thing.

In-game unlockables are great too, but it isn't either/or. The replay value of a lot of Nintendo games could be improved with simple achievements. Smash Bros Melee basically had achievements and it made the game a lot better. But that's the exception, not the norm.

Exactly how I feel. System achievement pop-up bothering you/distracting? Just turn it off. Otherwise, there are many of us who like collecting achievements/trophies in games and find Nintendo systems lacking in this regard.

As Dave said, in game unlockables/achievements can still exist with system achievements.

 

[Dave Meltzer]

I'm glad that Nintendo has not succumbed to the "achievement" bandwagon.

Why?

Would NSMB2 be a worse game if it had extra goals to try and achieve? I don't understand this mentality at all.

 

[Oppo]

I'm glad that Nintendo has not succumbed to the "achievement" bandwagon.

Let's not pretend that the fans wouldn't go completely crazy for an official Mario Gold Coin tracking service or what-have-you.

I don't think it's a matter of them not succumbing so much as being stubborn, frankly.

 

[Piers]

I strictly define achievements as only being a point-based, OS system thing. The problem is that half the time it's just the devs clearly having to check boxes with most achievements being Beat First Chapter, Kill Final Boss etc.

Always loved Super Smash Bros' trophy awards though. Getting a bit of history feels nice. Borderlands 2 implementation of 'achievements' in form of BadAss Points is also kind of clever, even if a lot of the time you get them whilst not trying.

 

[farnham]

Simple solution. Dont buy nintendo systems, games.

There's no argument I've ever read that successfully makes a valid case for system achievements being a bad thing.

In-game unlockables are great too, but it isn't either/or. The replay value of a lot of Nintendo games could be improved with simple achievements. Smash Bros Melee basically had achievements and it made the game a lot better. But that's the exception, not the norm.

At the same time you have two platform holders that do it. There is no need for another one to do the same thing.

 

[MrT-Tar]

I honestly don't care for trophies and whether they are included or not. However, I don't feel that 3rd parties should be forced to implement them in every game, which I believe is the stance that Nintendo has taken and is what I believe to be best.

 

[DragonSworne]

I like Nintendo's approach with unique challenges and rewards, but there is one fatal flaw, they can't be externalized.

Nintendo needs to develop an API where no matter what kind of achievement we are talking about, it's viewable by someone on your friend list. Obviously it will have to be viewable game by game, but it's better than what we have now.

I don't like the idea of an aggregate number that accumulates, but Nintendo can still expose these achievements easily through APIs.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Why?

Would NSMB2 be a worse game if it had extra goals to try and achieve? I don't understand this mentality at all.

NSMB2's reward for doing a stupidly tedious task in collecting a million coins is getting a new title screen.

The reward for getting all the Gold Skulltulas in OoT is infinite rupees in a game full of them.

Alternatively , getting all the coins in Super Mario 3D land and getting all the flags with Mario and luigi is an awesomely challenging level.

Just as there are good and bad rewards in Nintendo games, there are also good and bad achievements.

 

[BobJustBob]

And then it contains the Treasure Hunt panel where you can unlock tens of additional content like the soundtrack, by playing the levels in a certain way, such as completing it in less than X time, killing the boss with a certain weapon... This kind of content is absolutely optional, but is even more rewarding that the Mario 3D Land one, of course. Some Nintendo fans say that this was the root for the Microsoft's achievement system, as this kind of small rewards was also present in Smas Bros. - another Sakurai title

Sakurai actually started it in Kirby Air Ride, which featured an achievement grid like the Kid Icarus one for each of the game's three modes. Each grid had 120 squares, for a total of 360 achievements.

 

[nekomix]

Personally, I prefer Sakurai's way of achievements than Xbox/PS one. I think it is pointless to just put a "tick" when you have done something in this game and "acknowledgement" as an award is just... lame for me, looks like an award of a Soviet TV game. I really enjoy to unlock something like a trophy or weapon ou stage like Sakurai does, it really shows that you fought for something than only points.
Then, offering the possibility to get seen by your friends to compare or earning 1 or 2% off for future purchases on online stores (yeah, I'm looking at you M$), I'm not against this even if I don't care.

 

[Dave Meltzer]

NSMB2's reward for doing a stupidly tedious task in collecting a million coins is getting a new title screen.

The reward for getting all the Gold Skulltulas in OoT is infinite rupees in a game full of them.

Alternatively , getting all the coins in Super Mario 3D land and getting all the flags with Mario and luigi is an awesomely challenging level.

Just as there are good and bad rewards in Nintendo games, there are also good and bad achievements.

Sure. So say NSMB2 had 30 achievements. 1 is getting a million coins. The rest are based on things like course completion time, getting overb100 coins on every level, whatever. Is the game worse for this? I got 5 stars on that hand. I liked it a lot. But I never came close to a millio coins cos I ran out of things to do.

 

[KillerTravis]

I like achievements in Xenoblade, they give you experience. Discovering landmarks usually gives you a lot of exp as well.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Most achievements are just representations of things people have been trying to do since the beginning of gaming. If Nintendo put in an achievement system to say Super Mario Bros, they'd probably just be telling me to do all the things I was trying to do when I beat it back in the 90s.

I think what you're ignoring is that some people need some direction in terms of what to do in the playground. Sure, some players are fine on their own setting their own goals are in general just messing around with the system and seeing what's possible. But others just stick with the objectives that are directly in front of them. It doesn't have to be just about getting fifty points or what have you in as much as it can be about rethinking what's possible in the game world.

And this extends beyond just the system-wide achievements. Whether it's a laundry list of checboxes that add up to 1,000 points, or getting the 3 star coins in every level, the point of these carrots is to focus your attention on exploration or any of numerous other mechanics you may not have considered in addition to challenging you to simply get from Point A to Point B while jumping on/avoiding enemies.

 

[LoftyTheMetroid]

I didn't get all of the Star Coins for the sake of getting all of the Star Coins. I did it for the experience of getting the Star Coins.

The representation of that gameplay is arbitrary and meaningless, to me.

 

[Man God]

Plenty of Nintendo games have achievements now they just don't force everyone to make them.

Some games just don't need them, some developers don't think its worth the time to bother with them.

 

[RAWi]

This is how Achievements should always be!

Challenges that when done right and completed, the player gets somekind of reward that can be used in-game.

Kirby has done that for sometime, and that should be the standard. Not just a, "hey you did the achievements, here the congrats text that you did it". But a challenge that really really rewards you.

And Sakurai knows this.

 

[The Elite]

At the same time you have two platform holders that do it. There is no need for another one to do the same thing.

I would say achievements add a certain extra element of replay value. They certainly have for me on the other two systems. There's no reason for the Nintendo systems to outright avoid using them. They can be turned off for people who don't want them.

That's what I don't get about anti-achievement people. If the achievement pop-ups can be turned off then you can pretty much avoid the added functionality that the rest of us are enjoying. It's a win-win. People who want achievements get them. People who don't want them can simply turn them off.

Not having them at all means that a certain segment that wants achievements loses out completely. It's win-lose. Those who don't want achievements win while everyone else loses because they don't get the functionality they want.

The only area of concern is online achievements. I think those should be avoided.

 

[jmls1121]

Why?

Would NSMB2 be a worse game if it had extra goals to try and achieve? I don't understand this mentality at all.

Yes, if those achievements were arbitrary and nothing more than a ploy to keep you from selling the game back to GameStop (i.e. get killed by 100 goombas!)

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Yes, if those achievements were arbitrary and nothing more than a ploy to keep you from selling the game back to GameStop (i.e. get killed by 100 goombas!)

You could just not get killed by 100 goombas and proceed to sell the game back to GameStop if you didn't feel like checking that box. Also, why that example? Achievements don't have to be that stupid and pointless.

 

[The Elite]

Yes, if those achievements were arbitrary and nothing more than a ploy to keep you from selling the game back to GameStop (i.e. get killed by 100 goombas!)

None of what you said makes the game worse. It's the user's choice not to sell a game back to Gamestop. If they want to continue to own it and play through their achievements, if that's enjoyable to the gamer, how is that a bad thing?

 

[Shoyz]

I love achievements for completionism (so satisfying hitting 100% on a hard game) and to have something to show for all the games I've played. With in-game achievements I may as well have never played them at all. It's very much akin to the satisfaction of a collection of games, lined up on your shelf. Perhaps 'trophies' lined up on a shelf in this case.

And of course, replay value. I've gotten countless extra hours of games I'd otherwise have stopped when I 'beat' them.

The lack of them on the WiiU is why it would never be my platform of choice, and will keep it, like the Wii, as a Nintendo game player.

 

[Duallusion]

Without achievements I would never play Lego Batman 2 as much as I did, for example. I never played any game less because of them; only more if I found the achievements doable. All of those I don't find doable or enough fun (all multiplayer ones by default) I simply ignore and move on so it's not like I'm obsessing over them. And if/when I'll have a choice between a, say, 360 and a WiiU version of the game, system-wide achievements are a factor in deciding which one I'll choose. Right after price and which version looks/runs better.

 

[lamaroo]

This is how Achievements should always be!

Challenges that when done right and completed, the player gets somekind of reward that can be used in-game.

Kirby has done that for sometime, and that should be the standard. Not just a, "hey you did the achievements, here the congrats text that you did it". But a challenge that really really rewards you.

And Sakurai knows this.

Yeah this system is perfect. You don't know what any of the achievements are until you unlock one, which will then allow you to see what you need to accomplish to unlock the adjacent achievements.

I'd love this as a OS level system. I've said it before on here, but have both achievements and trophies like Smash Bros.

Gamerscore is pointless.

 

[EVH]

The thread just went bananas.

This discussion was not about why achievements are bad or good. Anyone can see that the point in my OP is that they are incredibly good when they are well done - Sakurai mode - and good when they are just ok - like that level in Mario 3D Land - It was about the kind of reward that people needs and the hints to do it, in order to create a richer game extra experience.

The fact that I chose these two examples is because first I think that the model Sakurai uses is the best one possible, but it looks like only him knows how to do it. This doesn't mean that achievements are bad, it means that they can be not as good, but also quite good. And that most of the people needs - as someone said - guidelines or little rewards to realize they can enjoy more the experience of the game as an option. And this can also be a way to create a healthy rivalization with your friends, again as an option.

The amount of - imo stupid - excuses like "oh shit notifications" or "just e-penor" or "they say stuff about the game!", etc was not the main question.

 

[tha_devil]

no game can ever beat melee trophies. so awesome.

 

[Ri'Orius]

This is a bit tangential, but what's the level of Mario 3D you're talking about? I don't recall anything that hardcore except the final level...

 

[farnham]

I would say achievements add a certain extra element of replay value. They certainly have for me on the other two systems. There's no reason for the Nintendo systems to outright avoid using them. They can be turned off for people who don't want them.

That's what I don't get about anti-achievement people. If the achievement pop-ups can be turned off then you can pretty much avoid the added functionality that the rest of us are enjoying. It's a win-win. People who want achievements get them. People who don't want them can simply turn them off.

Not having them at all means that a certain segment that wants achievements loses out completely. It's win-lose. Those who don't want achievements win while everyone else loses because they don't get the functionality they want.

The only area of concern is online achievements. I think those should be avoided.

my point is, if people want the achievement functionality they have plenty of options on the market. Why punish yourself deliberately by buying systems that dont have it and enduring the pain of not having achievements? Just buy xbox/playstation and youll have all achievements a person can ever buy.

 

[EVH]

This is a bit tangential, but what's the level of Mario 3D you're talking about? I don't recall anything that hardcore except the final level...

It is not tangential as it is quite far into the game, will put it as a spoiler:

Spoiler

Extra 8-4 , i think. Obviously you can always carry some object in your pocket, but you need the one they always give to you at the beginning, so the purpose is always there

 

[WrenchNinja]

Its 8 crown

 

[lamaroo]

my point is, if people want the achievement functionality they have plenty of options on the market.

Nintendo had a chance to improve and innovate in the achievements department, and give people a reason to pick up third party games on their system instead of the others, as small as that number of people may be, it's still a reason.

I don't actively go out of my way for achievements on my 360, but I would go for achievements if I got something tangible out of them, like the trophies on Smash Bros, or coins to spend on Mii hats and outfits or what have you.

 

[The Elite]

my point is, if people want the achievement functionality they have plenty of options on the market. Why punish yourself deliberately by buying systems that dont have it and enduring the pain of not having achievements? Just buy xbox/playstation and youll have all achievements a person can ever buy.

My point is, why not have it? Why completely ignore the segment of the market that enjoys achievements/trophies? How does ignoring those customers benefit Nintendo?

 

[Timeless]

I like achievements, but the lack of them is not a deal-breaker. I really wish there was an OS-level "you beat this game" token. On 360, it is very simple to see which games I have finished. 10 years from now, it will still be easy to see my achievements and which games I finished. On Nintendo consoles, all that blurs together unless I track it myself.

 

[Eric C]

I'm indifferent to achievements on the 360 I mostly ignore them, except for platformers.

But I don't see any harm adding the for the people that like them.

I think the challenge mode in NSMBU is better than actually doing in-game achievements since it does the same thing but makes it its own mode. And it's probably the right way to add more replayability to Mario games in the future

I love the challenge mode in NSMBU

 

[farnham]

My point is, why not have it? Why completely ignore the segment of the market that enjoys achievements/trophies? How does ignoring those customers benefit Nintendo?

Well thats a decision nintendo has made. Maybe they thought people that care about achievements are not likely to buy nintendo systems and games anyway

Nintendo had a chance to improve and innovate in the achievements department, and give people a reason to pick up third party games on their system instead of the others, as small as that number of people may be, it's still a reason.

I don't actively go out of my way for achievements on my 360, but I would go for achievements if I got something tangible out of them, like the trophies on Smash Bros, or coins to spend on Mii hats and outfits or what have you.

Well they choose not to because frankly people that care about achievements most likely moved on to the competition and nothing nintendo will do on that front will bring them back unless its something truly groundbreaking in the achievements department

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Well thats a decision nintendo has made. Maybe they thought people that care about achievements are not likely to buy nintendo systems and games anyway

Well they choose not to because frankly people that care about achievements most likely moved on to the competition and nothing nintendo will do on that front will bring them back unless its something truly groundbreaking in the achievements department

You're just pointlessly arguing in a circle here.

 

[Neo Child]

Even more incentive if you earned coins for achievements and if coins were more relevant.

Perfect system.

 

[Man God]

Nintendo also does have system level achievements on the 3DS.

It's part of Mii Plaza!

 

[The Elite]

Even more incentive if you earned coins for achievements and if coins were more relevant.

Perfect system.

I've always thought that Nintendo should implement a sticker system for their OS level achievements. You earn stickers from accomplishing tasks in games. The bigger the accomplishment the bigger the sticker you get. You keep the stickers in a sticker book that you can share with your friends. The stickers in the book can be moved around so that you can have your favourites or the ones that you're most proud of on the front page.

I think it's a great idea and very Nintendo. It's not that different than what they are already doing in Nintendo Land either. Just implement it at an OS level.

 

[Hero of Legend]

I love how in Air Ride that when you get an achievement in a race, you hear that blissful chime, you don't even have to beat the race (unless required) to keep it, and no stupid message popping up telling you, the game shows you after exiting the race via the achievement list.

This is one of the many things that made City Trial like crack, I SO want Air Ride 2, Sakurai wouldn't even need to work on it, the foundation's there, just expand on it with new things to do, new rides, more than one city, more copy powers, what a gem Air Ride was, might actually be my fav Kirby game, even more than 64, as 64 aged a little too much, it's a bit slow.

 

[Javier]

NSMB2 does have achievements. File Gold Stars, anyone?

 

[Chunky]

I couldn't care less about any aspect of the games industry.
Although to contribute, if everyone followed Smash Bros/Kid Icarus' lead I might be bothered to do them. There need to be more tangible rewards than a fingernail-size image and an arbitrary number going up.

 

[Hero of Legend]

NSMB2 does have achievements. File Gold Stars, anyone?

3D Land too, plus 5 GLITTERING stars!