Uno Venova
Banned
damnweren't you the one that said you would give every rumor an equal chance , including always online and no used games?
Why disprove these now ?
damnweren't you the one that said you would give every rumor an equal chance , including always online and no used games?
Why disprove these now ?
I'm not sure I follow this.
How is this simpler than one pool of memory? With one pool of memory I make an allocation, and that's it, it's in memory, and sans considerations about the cache friendliness of algorithms I don't have to think further about it.
With two pools of memory I have to think about what should go where, when, and how to schedule data movement between the two, in order to optimise usage (and, from a bandwidth pov, achieve something less than one fatter pipe going to one pool of memory could allow). This requires more programmer sweat equity.
You guys are really taking this GDDR5 thing too far without understanding it. The 7770 stock has 72 GB/s BW with GDDR5. Basically the same as the rumored 68 GB/s the Durango has.
There's nothing that intrinsically makes GDDR5 better than DDR3, in fact it's worse because it has greater latency. GDDR5's benefit is it scales to higher BW.
Now, it is true Durango's CPU will share that 68 GB, but OTOH there's the ESRAM which makes it a whole nother ballgame.
You do have to think about it, though. These aren't PCs with pagefiles... There is physical limits to what you can have in ram. You don't just set and forget.
But what are you going to be piping into your ESRam? Think about it. Your rendering pipeline will work in order leaving ESRam free. For some uses you will work with a blank slate every screen refresh... (Ie texturing and shading)... Some uses you will keep it with data in there almost all the time (compute)
In the end you're still managing it as a temporary place for increased performance as opposed to a permanent place where you're competing with every other piece of data that a game requires. Nothing else but those few specific tasks are competing for bandwidth and considering the rendering pipeline is in stages, the tasks should have no latency/bandwidth or allocation issues with each other
it is much much easier to manage (both space and bandwidth wise) than having everything lumped into the main ram pool
the 360 had a similar ram setup and devs said it was easy to program for.
So if the 720 has the same sought of setup why all of sudden is it hard to develop for.
I think its more of a case where the ps4 is really easy to develop for and the 720 is just easy to develop for.
Right, I don't think anyone is suggesting Durango is hard to develop for...just that it's not as easy as PS4 if the architectures are accurate.
The reason for that is because PS4 RAM bandwith>>>>>>>> 720 RAM bandwith, and rumoured RAM amount free for games is PS4>> 720, so if you put those two together you get PS4 RAM >>>>>>>>>>>720 RAM.yeah, it just feels it like ppl in this thread are like PS4 ram >>>>>>>>>>>> 720 RAM
where in reality its more like PS4 ram >>> 720 ram
yeah, it just feels it like ppl in this thread are like PS4 ram >>>>>>>>>>>> 720 RAM
where in reality its more like PS4 ram >>> 720 ram
The reason for that is because PS4 RAM bandwith>>>>>>>> 720 RAM bandwith, and rumored RAM amount free for games is PS4>> 720, so if you put those two together you get PS4 RAM >>>>>>>>>>>720 RAM.
[/B]weren't you the one that said you would give every rumor an equal chance , including always online and no used games?
Why disprove these now ?
Remember ANYTHING can happen
For all we know MS has become just as arrogant and insane as sony was at the begining of this gen after seeing the success of the xbox and now believe that as long as the XBOX logo is on the device it will sell millions price and functions be damned.
or are you realy thinking that they are incapable of making a complicated devkit that they sent to devs with the message "deal with it "on it like sony did in the past ?
Sony's fuckup is't an unicum that only happens when the stars align .
ms could very well become "THAT" company this gen .
Well just the bandwith difference is pretty huge.how much ram will the ps4 have reserved?
when taken reserved space into account and it ends ups like 720 5gb vs PS4 7gb
then yeah I agree that is a big difference, but at present, an opinion like that seems reaching because we dont know how much ram is reserved for the ps4 and the rumors supporting the 3gb reserved for the 720 are small and sketchy
Well just the bandwith difference is pretty huge.
isnt that whats the esram and data move engines are for?
I think in 3rd party games the ram wont make the difference, I think esram+data move engine combo will make it competitive with sonys gddr5 memory, sonys may still be better but the ram will not be the part that makes PS4 games look better.
No it doesn't. Especially when you consider they're the only manufacturer getting exclusive releases from the makers of CryEngine and Unreal Engine. They would've worked closely with them during the creation of Durango.
the 360 had a similar ram setup and devs said it was easy to program for.
So if the 720 has the same sought of setup why all of sudden is it hard to develop for.
I think its more of a case where the ps4 is really easy to develop for and the 720 is just easy to develop for.
PCs will still be more powerful and likely to be the lead development platform anyway, with optimisations for console.
Sorry, Microsoft making a hard to program for console just doesn't make any damn sense from past history.
Psone was very easy to program for yet SCE went for complicated and esoteric architectures in ps2 and ps3. Past history doesn't mean much.
I don't see how MS's work with AMD is a test bed for their future chips. Especially with eSRAM on there. No chip for any PC ever comes with embedded ram. None. Because it's expensive and hot. It's honestly useless for consumers. Embedded RAM is used to make up for bandwidth deficiencies, which Sony's design does not have (and frankly, 68 GB/s from the Durango is much higher than any PC's DDR3 speeds are). Not only that, but AMD already said they are selling a lighter version of the PS4's APU. It might be because PS4 was announced first, but the design would resemble PS4's more than Durango's anyway.4I think MS/AMD is going to testbed more of their APU future tech in this new XBOX than they're doing with Sony's machine, almost perhaps debuting the next-gen AMD stuff in the process instead of taking a pumped up current-gen design, like Sony.
As I stated above, embedded RAM is used to make up for bandwidth deficiencies. The combined speeds of both the main and eSRAM won't be as high as the GDDR5 in the PS4. Also, the Move Engines don't increase bandwidth, and are in fact, limited by the speeds of the DDR3 (this was not only speculated, but confirmed by the VG Leaks rumor in this very thread).isnt that whats the esram and data move engines are for?
I think in 3rd party games the ram wont make the difference, I think esram+data move engine combo will make it competitive with sonys gddr5 memory, sonys may still be better but the ram will not be the part that makes PS4 games look better.
The ESRAM is quite small really at 32 MB so while it can help it certainly won't do wonders. Data move engines might be a bit helpful but it's nothing spectacular. Plus the work that will have to go into writing the code to get the data from main RAM to ESRAM or Data Move engines and retain it there until it is needed will make it more difficult to programme for than PS4.isnt that whats the esram and data move engines are for?
I think in 3rd party games the ram wont make the difference, I think esram+data move engine combo will make it competitive with sonys gddr5 memory, sonys may still be better but the ram will not be the part that makes PS4 games look better.
I thought it more likely GDDR5 =< DRR3 + ESRAM (x low latency) is what's going on at the moment
Maybe MS was counting on the fact that chip densities that would allow Sony to go 8GB won't be available when PS4 will launch and this gamble backfired.
No! The latency of GDDR5 has been completely overblown by people desperately looking for parity between both consoles.
>50% longer memory latency for CPU/ GPU compared to PC!!!
Well yeah I was only thinking out loud. But honestly MS must have thought 8 GB was enough for both their resource heavy focus on apps and multimedia and games.I really doubt this was even a factor in their design.
So we are back to selectively believing vgleaks?
No where back to mathematics and physics. The 720 is looking like it will be a hell of a machine, and a huge step up over its predecessor. But the PS4 is looking like a step(or half a step) above that.
So we are back to selectively believing vgleaks?
how much ram will the ps4 have reserved?
when taken reserved space into account and it ends ups like 720 5gb vs PS4 7gb
then yeah I agree that is a big difference, but at present, an opinion like that seems reaching because we dont know how much ram is reserved for the ps4 and the rumors supporting the 3gb reserved for the 720 are small and sketchy
Sure, but that doesn't mean "the latency of GDDR5 has been overblown". What numbers are you relying on for that assertion? Why are they different than vgleaks?
Latency isn't an issue, even if GDDR5 has a huge amount more than DDR3 and eSRAM. It's easily compensated for on both the hardware and software end, especially in an APU designed around utilizing GDDR5.
It won't be any where near 2-3GB reserved, considering Sony was about to go with 4GB GDDR5 until the last minute. My guess is 512MB reserved for OS, maybe 1GB at most.
It won't be any where near 2-3GB reserved, considering Sony was about to go with 4GB GDDR5 until the last minute. My guess is 512MB reserved for OS, maybe 1GB at most.
Blow the lid off already microsoft the wait is killing me..
heavy focus on apps and multimedia and games.
I've been posting this stuff over B3D, but AMD has a new part supposedly to be coming in April, the "Bonaire" or 7790 GPU. It's supposed to slot between 7770 and 7850 on PC's.
Notable things about this guy are, it sports 768 SP's. Which is 12 CU's. In other words exactly what Durango is rumored.
http://translate.google.com/transla...radeon-hd-7790-bonaire-i-sweclockers-testlabb
Another thing is, it seems to be possibly clocked at 1075 mhz stock. The link calls it a overclocked model, but every spec sheet I've found claims 7790 is clocked at 1075 period (for example this link http://www.tomshardware.com/news/AMD-Radeon-7790-Saturn-GPU,21447.html ). Additionally a lot of links claim AMD wont allow overclocked 7790 so as not to encroach on 7850. Which would mean they all have to be the same clock.
So if 1075 is stock, I'm really hopeful for a Durango clock bump to at least 1 ghz.
There also seems to be some claims Bonaire is GCN 2.0, which is also interesting. If it's the same as PS4 it probably doesnt mean a lot though. It wouldn't surprise me.
Also another thing pointed out on B3D, 7790 spec sheet lists:
Is exactly the same as the Durango ESRAM BW I think. A little odd/coincidental anyway.
The ESRAM is quite small really at 32 MB so while it can help it certainly won't do wonders. Data move engines might be a bit helpful but it's nothing spectacular. Plus the work that will have to go into writing the code to get the data from main RAM to ESRAM or Data Move engines and retain it there until it is needed will make it more difficult to programme for than PS4.
PS4's RAM solution is a very lucky, educated guess by Sony. They always wanted high bandwith and unified RAM solution. They started with 2GB when that was all that could be achieved with those goals in mind. They switched to 4GB when the new chips became available and got super lucky that newer chips are available now which allowed them to to 8GB without any difficulty and while maintaining their design philosophy.
MS went a completely different route. MS wanted to have A LOT of RAM no matter the drawbacks and at the time when the console was being designed 8GB seemed like a thing that would be unmatched. However, they had to design their whole system around the drawbacks of chosing DDR3 RAM with the Data Move engines and ESRAM (they even seemed to have chosen a lesser GPU,since, presumably, a higher one wouldn't really benefit from the slow RAM). While these boosters might help a bit they certainly can't match the bandwith of PS4's GDRR5. Maybe MS was counting on the fact that chip densities that would allow Sony to go 8GB won't be available when PS4 will launch and this gamble backfired.
This sounds identical to the magic efficiency that is supposed to make Durango ignore all other bottlenecks
Sure, but that doesn't mean "the latency of GDDR5 has been overblown". What numbers are you relying on for that assertion? Why are they different than vgleaks? There is no reason that both statements cannot be true: PS4 is more powerful than Durango and GDDR5 latency is significantly worse
That's funny, I don't remember Durango being a hard to program for console being a rumor. Could you point towards a link saying that?
Rumor might have been the wrong word to use as i took this from gaf speculation .
However my point still stands,
From the time i have been lurking here you have jumped on every possible piece of info that was presented here no matter how unlikely or impossible it was(dual gpu, dual cpu , special sauce, wizard jizz,a spec update 1 year before release etc.. ) and have given( or at leastclaimed that you did ) each and every one a chance to be true or false.
now based on leaks(that may or may not be accurate but for the sake of this argument lets assume that they are) and lots of GAF tech analysis it may be that durango may be more difficult to develop compared to the ps4 in terms of memory.
However when that notion was presented to you ,you dismissed it outright claiming MS is not making a difficult console to develop for, period based on previous console efforts, but
PS3 and currently wii u has shown that to be meaningless.
why not give this notion a fair chance then ?
Why not consider this "what if..?"
The only thing I remember is edge saying that durango has a more oppressive operating system overhead that the PS4. I would like a analysis on it's own and how it compared to past consoles.as an outsider just viewing this thread and not knowing that much about tech specs but knowing the history of MS being easy to develop for ...it's odd that it would be suddenly difficult...i mean the devs have dev kits now right? you'd figure they'd have some input on it.
If it's a rumor I'll give it a chance. But there is no documentation of Durango being hard to program for from developers.
I wouldn't say it's hard, but it's definitely harder than the PS4.
First off, companies, especially Middleware companies, cannot and will not leak the plans of one console maker to the other, just because a few posters on GAF wish they did.I want to see what they're up to as well. I fail to believe for a second that they're going to let Sony have them caught with their pants down thinking they were only going with 4GB RAM in which allowed MS to do 8GB and have a larger reserve for other possibly non-gaming functions.
Someone (probably Epic, who "showed them why to go 512mb" last gen lol) had to of leaked to them what Sony was up to again.
Yup, thus the worse GPU design and the complicated setup to get that 8GB of RAM in, since MS didn't believe the GDRR5 chip densities could be ready for a 2013 launch. There's also some rumors of MS wanting to launch last year and deciding against it.Yeah. I don't think Microsoft's focus has been on hardcore gaming for a while now. I think their key goal is to produce a home entertainment system that caters for all the family's needs.
Whoops, sorry!Gb, not GB =P.
It's really the GPU, and Sony has that in spades for the console space.
Yep.