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[Osiris]

Actually:

PS4 GPU >7850 in terms of CU, TMU (iirc), added GPGPU functionality, GCN 1.x, TF (1.84 v 1.76). It loses out to 7850 in terms of triangle count set up 1.6B vs 1.72B/sec and core clock.

Rumoured XB3 GPU> 7770 in terms of CU (12 vs 10 which is some here suggest that it may be a detuned Pitcairn instead), added GPGPU functionality, triangle set up (same count as PS4's GPU). It loses out in terms of core clock, TF count (1.23 v 1.28 of 7770)

More importantly, they are both being optimised to be more flexible and much more efficient. It means both of them will perform better than their closest PC variant counterparts.

Agreed, but for the simplest, most direct comparison they will suffice

Please explain the joke, or else just answer my rather simple question: Can microsoft do the same thing with DDR3 as Sony did with GDDR5?

Unlikely, DDR3 density capped out at 4Gb modules a few years ago I believe, Sony were just incredibly fortunate that the timing of further development and increased chip density for GDDR5 allowed them to make such a change.

 

[pestul]

Given the old rumours of 6670 equivalents and whatnot for nextgen system, I'm actually very pleased where the final GPUs ended up (obviously if the Durango VGLeak is accurate).

 

[i-Lo]

Agreed, but for the simplest, most direct comparison they will suffice

Absolutely. I just presented the clarification so that people do not feel upset just because it's a "7770" or "7850". In a place like console where customization is the life blood of its parts, they will punch well above their weight.

 

[Osiris]

Absolutely. I just presented the clarification so that people do not feel upset just because it's a "7770" or "7850". In a place like console where customization is the life blood of its parts, they will punch well above their weight.

I'm excited by the fact that these are APU's, seeing them sing via HSA, both CPU and GPU in glorious harmony will be cool to see.

If HSA lives up to expectations that is.

 

[CLEEK]

You're always in such a rush to defend the PS4 that you can't detect the slightest sarcasm.

It has nothing to defending one or the other. I'ts about correcting inaccurate technicl claims. If artist's post was a joke, then fair enough, but there have been plenty of serious posts just like it.

I've posted extensivley in the various Orbis/Durango rumour threads, and my position has always been the same. My view is MS have designed the next Xbox with more than games in mind, which was at the heart of the 8GB DDR3 decisions and the EDRAM to mitiage the poor bandwidth. I have no idea what real world difference there will be between both final consoles. Spec wise, the PS4 seems to trump the Xbox in all major areas. But with diminsihing returns, there could be every chance that exclusive Xbox games are as techncially excellent as PS4 ones.

Ayway, I'll be getting both consoles. Probably at launch, too.

 

[watership]

The lack of any concrete leaks for some time makes me think the final hardware will be surprisingly different to this.

When was this leak? Almost a year?

 

[XtremeXpider]

I'm excited by the fact that these are APU's, seeing them sing via HSA, both CPU and GPU in glorious harmony will be cool to see.

If HSA lives up to expectations that is.

No APUs, but I hope some HSA in there.

 

[Satchel]

When was this leak? Almost a year?

maybe more.

Microsoft are tight lipped when they want to be.

If Sony could keep an extra 4GB of RAM a secret, fuck only knows what cards MS is holding.

Hopefully not 7-3

 

[Taiser]

maybe more.

Microsoft are tight lipped when they want to be.

If Sony could keep an extra 4GB of RAM a secret, fuck only knows what cards MS is holding.

Hopefully not 7-3

they couldn't.

was leaked by edge one month before the unveiling.


http://www.edge-online.com/news/playstation-4-revealed/2/

We have confirmed with sources that recently leaked tech specs are accurate. Though Durango devkits offer 8GB of DDR3 RAM, compared to Orbis’s 4GB, Sony’s GDDR5 solution is capable of moving data at 176 gigabytes per second, which should eliminate the sort of bottlenecks that hampered PS3 game performance. Importantly, we’ve learned that Sony has told developers that it is pushing for the final PS4 RAM to match up to Microsoft’s 8GB.

 

[Satchel]

they couldn't.

was leaked by edge one month before the unveiling.

Wasn't leaked was it?

Pretty sure they speculated.

 

[Syphon Filter]

Wasn't leaked was it?

Pretty sure they speculated.

Doesn't sound like speculation to me.

 

[watership]

Wasn't leaked was it?

Pretty sure they speculated.

It was probably a "give" from someone at Sony to Edge. A controlled leak. I'm pretty shocked Microsoft has been leak free for so long. What did we know about the 360 going into the announcement... anyone remember?

 

[Respawn]

Except CPU speed and power, RAM quantity, disc read speed (likely), memory latency (it will trail there, DDR3 latency<GDDR5) etc...

I think, maybe someone more knowledgeable can explain better, but in a way the CPU will be the true limiting factor anyway. The GPU cannot actually create vertices/geometry or something like that. So it can improve some things yes, but not the most fundamental ones. Like a prettier coat of paint on the same building analogy.

So the PS4 alleged superior GPU can make some things look better, but not really fundamentally alter anything (if I'm correct)

You truly are special if you believe what you posted.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Please explain the joke, or else just answer my rather simple question: Can microsoft do the same thing with DDR3 as Sony did with GDDR5?

No because DDR3 is already at 4Gb density and there are no plans to go on to 8Gb density. Sony went from 2Gb density chips to 4Gb density chips to achieve 8GB. MS is already using 4Gb density chips, in order for MS to increase their RAM amount to 16GB, they'd have to increase the number of chips on the mainboard.

 

[onQ123]

You truly are special if you believe what you posted.

specialguy

I see what you did there.



but I've seen some weird posts since the specs leaked.

 

[spwolf]

My guess is 1080p in both, but better antialiasing (and some advanced effects) in PS4, maybe 30FPS vs 60FPS.

30 vs 60 would be 2x the fps... so thats not possible. What is possible is significantly better everything.

if rumors are to be believed about durango, it should be easy to exploit the power difference.. literally as if changing the settings from normal to very high in pc game for instance.

both will still be a lot better than current gen anyway and allow for new experiences, gameplay, connectivity, etc, etc, and power does not mean that something will sell better or worse. Wii games did not look good but N sold a ton of them before the collapse, and the difference in graphics between PS4 and Durango will be much less than Wii and 360 for instance.

I am looking at some PS3 games (I am sure there are some for 360, but i dont have it anymore), and a lot of games look "good enough" already. It is total experience that is behind, things like sluggish OS, slow downloads, patching, gazillion things that translate into good experience. I couldnt help to wonder the other day if PS3 (and 360) would have been "good enough" for next few years if they just had 1GB of RAM to start with. It would magically remove many limitations from these devices.

Of course, this is talking about top devs and their games... With PS4/Durango, I expect every game to look good and a lot of them to look great.

So not sure if majority of people will care about difference between PS4 and "Durango", but core gamers probably will and we will argue about it here

 

[onQ123]

30 vs 60 would be 2x the fps... so thats not possible. What is possible is significantly better everything.

if rumors are to be believed about durango, it should be easy to exploit the power difference.. literally as if changing the settings from normal to very high in pc game for instance.

both will still be a lot better than current gen anyway and allow for new experiences, gameplay, connectivity, etc, etc, and power does not mean that something will sell better or worse. Wii games did not look good but N sold a ton of them before the collapse, and the difference in graphics between PS4 and Durango will be much less than Wii and 360 for instance.

I am looking at some PS3 games (I am sure there are some for 360, but i dont have it anymore), and a lot of games look "good enough" already. It is total experience that is behind, things like sluggish OS, slow downloads, patching, gazillion things that translate into good experience. I couldnt help to wonder the other day if PS3 (and 360) would have been "good enough" for next few years if they just had 1GB of RAM to start with. It would magically remove many limitations from these devices.

Of course, this is talking about top devs and their games... With PS4/Durango, I expect every game to look good and a lot of them to look great.

So not sure if majority of people will care about difference between PS4 and "Durango", but core gamers probably will and we will argue about it here

Why is this not possible? it's not just the 50% more FLOPS on the GPU there is also about 3X the main memory bandwidth & other things that might have devs choosing to go with locked 30FPS for the Xbox 3 & 60FPS for the PS4.

 

[XtremeXpider]

30 vs 60 would be 2x the fps... so thats not possible. What is possible is significantly better everything.

Well, talking about "significantly better everything", will it be "noticeable"? if for some people, a 8X is hard to notice the "change", will a 2X be noticeable?

 

[KidBeta]

maybe more.

Microsoft are tight lipped when they want to be.

If Sony could keep an extra 4GB of RAM a secret, fuck only knows what cards MS is holding.

Hopefully not 7-3

No, its certainly less then a year ago.

 

[artist]

30 vs 60 would be 2x the fps... so thats not possible. What is possible is significantly better everything.

 

[KidBeta]

Wow big difference.

 

[artist]

Wow big difference.

nvm, saw the edit.

 

[KidBeta]

nvm, saw the edit.

Read the wrong cards looked like 10fps difference.

 

[Cidd]

What settings and resolution was this at?

That's a massive gap between the 7770 and 7850..

31fps vs 50fps wtf?

 

[artist]

What settings and resolution was this at?

that's a massive gap between the 7770 and 7850..

1200p, 8xAA and 16xAF

 

[KidBeta]

1200p, 8xAA and 16xAF

The AA would be the killer here the 7850 has 2x the ROPS (32) of the 7770.

 

[spwolf]

Well, talking about "significantly better everything", will it be "noticeable"? if for some people, a 8X is hard to notice the "change", will a 2X be noticeable?

if you cant notice the difference between PS3 and PS4 then you might be blind or not care. But I expect people who care about graphics (core gamers) to easily notice the "significant" difference.

I think i explained it well in rest of the post though when it comes to core vs general population so no need to quote one sentence and blow it out of proportion when it comes to what it means to the sales and general population caring about it.

As I said in previous post, to a lot of people PS3/360 with 1 GB ram would have been enough for next few years.

 

[onQ123]

The AA would be the killer here the 7850 has 2x the ROPS (32) of the 7770.

Sounds familiar.

 

[Cidd]

1200p, 8xAA and 16xAF

Goddamn so the 7850 could easily achieve 60fps if we set it to 4xAA and 8xAF. I don't think the 7770 can even touch 60fps even with 2x AA and 4xAF.

Although settings vary from game to game this is quite telling of what may come.

 

[artist]

Goddamn so the 7850 could easily achieve 60fps if we set it to 4xAA and 8xAF. I don't think the 7770 can even touch 60fps even with 2x AA and 4xAF.

Although settings vary from game to game this is quite telling of what may come.

It's an old game too. Just wanted to show that there could be some cases where achieving twice the framerate could be possible.

 

[i-Lo]

If the XB3 is truly outspec'd in terms of raw performance then despite it, I think the multiplat devs will use it as a base (coming from what CDPR recently said). This means that there would be upgrades akin to what the 360 versions of certain multiplat received (this time in terms of perhaps more stable performance or IQ). I am not sold that there would be a huge gap. Plus, perhaps the developers may not even opt for 1080p (scaled instead) on XB3 making overall visual discrepancy rather small.

 

[AgentP]

maybe more.

Microsoft are tight lipped when they want to be.

If Sony could keep an extra 4GB of RAM a secret, fuck only knows what cards MS is holding.

Hopefully not 7-3

Well no one has come out to say these leaks are wrong, all hints are nods to support the leak. If in doubt, Occam's razor.

 

[onQ123]

if you cant notice the difference between PS3 and PS4 then you might be blind or not care. But I expect people who care about graphics (core gamers) to easily notice the "significant" difference.

I think i explained it well in rest of the post though when it comes to core vs general population so no need to quote one sentence and blow it out of proportion when it comes to what it means to the sales and general population caring about it.

As I said in previous post, to a lot of people PS3/360 with 1 GB ram would have been enough for next few years.

the thing with the general population not caring about the graphics is how are you going to sell them the Xbox 3 that's about 5X more powerful for games than the Xbox 360 if the graphics don't mean much to them? so if you're going for that market it Xbox 360 ,PS3 & Wii U is your biggest competition & they already have more games & cheaper prices.


Gaf like to down talk Kinect & other motion controls but it's going to be the Xbox 3's life line.

 

[XtremeXpider]

if you cant notice the difference between PS3 and PS4 then you might be blind or not care. But I expect people who care about graphics (core gamers) to easily notice the "significant" difference.

I think i explained it well in rest of the post though when it comes to core vs general population so no need to quote one sentence and blow it out of proportion when it comes to what it means to the sales and general population caring about it.

As I said in previous post, to a lot of people PS3/360 with 1 GB ram would have been enough for next few years.

Of course DF will notice the differences.

 

[i-Lo]

Of course DF will notice the differences.

What?

 

[Chuck Norris]

If the XB3 is truly outspec'd in terms of raw performance then despite it, I think the multiplat devs will use it as a base (coming from what CDPR recently said). This means that there would be upgrades akin to what the 360 versions of certain multiplat received (this time in terms of perhaps more stable performance or IQ). I am not sold that there would be a huge gap. Plus, perhaps the developers may not even opt for 1080p (scaled instead) on XB3 making overall visual discrepancy rather small.

Developers have tended to trend towards parity this gen, because the platforms were roughly equal. I can imagine if one of the two platform holders have a sizable advantage next gen they will be pushing developers to make sure its noticeable.

 

[phosphor112]

Yes, there is an easy way by using the Bathmate Hercules Pump. I heard it can add 8GB with 3 months use

I hate you and Google. =X

PS3 doesn't have an audio processor, just some DAC's at the end of a buffer. All the processing is done on Cell, in software.

Which was very capable in that regard. ;]

Please explain the joke, or else just answer my rather simple question: Can microsoft do the same thing with DDR3 as Sony did with GDDR5?

I'll repost this:

DDR3 is currently at 4Gbit densities, the same as the new chips that PS4 are now using. They'd have to double the DDR3 density to 8Gbit... that's not happening.

 

[Cidd]

the thing with the general population not caring about the graphics is how are you going to sell them the Xbox 3 that's about 5X more powerful for games than the Xbox 360 if the graphics don't mean much to them? so if you're going for that market it Xbox 360 ,PS3 & Wii U is your biggest competition & they already have more games & cheaper prices.


Gaf like to down talk Kinect & other motion controls but it's going to be the Xbox 3's life line.

The Problem I see with Kinect 2 and the PS4 Eye is that's most of the casual markets already got both, These are the kind of people that play games like once or twice a week. Most have Kinect and the PS Move on their shelves gathering dust and wont be entice to go out and buy the same thing again. if MS and Sony are banking on that I think they're both royally screwed.

They have to show something new or the casual market will ignore them like the Wii U.

 

[googleplex]

But Durango has more RAM.

Durango: 8192 MB DDR3RAM + 32 MB ESRAM = 8224
PS4: 8192 MB GDDR5 = 8192

8224 > 8192

Similarly, Durango has same amount of bandwidth as PS4; 68 + 102 = 170 GB/s.

Oh and ignore the PS4 CPU clock bump rumor to 2GHz. Also ignore the latency cycles.

The PS4 GPU is not 50% more powerful but the Durango is 33% less.

I think I covered everything.

Oh god did you just add the bandwidth together?

Edit: duh it was a joke post

 

[Cidd]

Oh god did you just add the bandwidth together?

It was a joke post, He was being sarcastic.

 

[CLEEK]

What settings and resolution was this at?

That's a massive gap between the 7770 and 7850..

31fps vs 50fps wtf?

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/536?vs=549

The 7850 has between 30-100% FPS boost over the 7770 in real world games. This is the best benchmark we have for comparing the theoretical GPU difference between the PS4 and Xbox3. For most games, the 50% more FLOPS of the 7850 equals double the framerate. So in theory, we could see the same difference between the next gen consoles.

 

[Drek]

If the XB3 is truly outspec'd in terms of raw performance then despite it, I think the multiplat devs will use it as a base (coming from what CDPR recently said). This means that there would be upgrades akin to what the 360 versions of certain multiplat received (this time in terms of perhaps more stable performance or IQ). I am not sold that there would be a huge gap. Plus, perhaps the developers may not even opt for 1080p (scaled instead) on XB3 making overall visual discrepancy rather small.

If they're both x86 systems devs are just going to program for PC and set their "medium" settings focus on the lower end system, "high" for the higher end system, and "very high/ultra" for the enthusiast PC crowd.

There won't be a "target platform" significance going forward if they're all x86 with DirectX or OpenGL and ATi graphics silicon. Tweaking for each platform will take fractions of the time it took this generation.

 

[milsorgen]

30% difference in power is nothing now?

It's a subjective metric and difficult to imagine where it will play out with IQ, texture resolution, objects, physics, etc.. But it seems more and more to me that it will be very comparable to the differences we already see between the PS3 and 360. With a few exceptions the difference in performance went largely unnoticed.

 

[CLEEK]

DDR3 is currently at 4Gbit densities, the same as the new chips that PS4 are now using. They'd have to double the DDR3 density to 8Gbit... that's not happening.

Well, MS could just look to double the number of RAM modules on the motherboard to achieve 16GB, but i reckon there is zero chance of this happening. I am sure the current leaked design of the Durango meets all their internal goals, so there will be little to no push internally to up the specs to beat the PS4. The could easily have designed the Durango to be a beast from day one, but this design will have been optimal for MS plans.

 

[onQ123]

The Problem I see with Kinect 2 and the PS4 Eye is that's most of the casual markets already got both, These are the kind of people that play games like once or twice a week. Most have Kinect and the PS Move on their shelves gathering dust and wont be entice to go out and buy the same thing again. if MS and Sony are banking on that I think they're both royally screwed.

They have to show something new or the casual market will ignore them like the Wii U.

True but they will also need them to survive in these times where Touch devices are taking over the market so they will need a way to play the popular games that create a fast moving buzz without having to change the game much.

Wii U downfall is that it put it's self up against the tablets but it fall short of the things that people love about tablets like being able to take it with you & having the free\cheap fun games that everyone is playing & it's not multi-touch.


Xbox 3 & PS4 can fix these problems by having games that you buy for your Smart Phone /Tablet that will also be playable on you console & games on your consoles that can also be playable on your Smart phone/ Tablet.

 

[Unknown One]

The differences in some 360 to PS3 games were very noticeable. A lot of the 360 games looked a bit better, but also ran better. PS3 games had less screen tearing for a lot of games though.

I wouldn't say it won't be noticeable. If the difference is going from 0-2xAA compared to 2-4xAA it'll be very noticeable.

 

[Glorified G]

Pretty sure they speculated.

What part of "we’ve learned that Sony has told developers" is speculation?

I'm really genuinely curious if your being sarcastic. (I know some posters native language is not English)

 

[Satchel]

What part of "we’ve learned that Sony has told developers" is speculation?

I'm really genuinely curious if your being sarcastic. (I know some posters native language is not English)

Never saw that quote before. Sorry.

 

[spwolf]

the thing with the general population not caring about the graphics is how are you going to sell them the Xbox 3 that's about 5X more powerful for games than the Xbox 360 if the graphics don't mean much to them? so if you're going for that market it Xbox 360 ,PS3 & Wii U is your biggest competition & they already have more games & cheaper prices.


Gaf like to down talk Kinect & other motion controls but it's going to be the Xbox 3's life line.

well obviously they will try with Kinect, which is the point... And core will notice the difference... so MS and Sony's plan is wow the core, wow with Kinect and then when prices drop, wow everyone.

PS3 and 360 is like printing money for them... it is not taking anything away from next gen. It is making next gen possible. 360 and 720 will not be competition, unless we are talking about forum wars.

 

[phosphor112]

Well, MS could just look to double the number of RAM modules on the motherboard to achieve 16GB, but i reckon there is zero chance of this happening. I am sure the current leaked design of the Durango meets all their internal goals, so there will be little to no push internally to up the specs to beat the PS4. The could easily have designed the Durango to be a beast from day one, but this design will have been optimal for MS plans.

They would have to do multiple things.

1) Surround the whole APU with memory chips

2) Move the memory farther from the APU

3) Take loans out from Goldman Sachs to afford such a ridiculous board complexity.

That would be the worst thing ever.