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[phosphor112]

I hate to do the old B3D text dump, but ERP is one of the few there that has any real technical insight that is trustworthy.



http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1718716&postcount=2025


The last bolded part is what I was guessing and have posted here. They wanted 8GB total and that made the choice DDR (GDDR5 for 8GB was out of the question when they made the choice). The low bandwidth dictated the use of a faster cache and the choice of eSRAM over eDRAM was the ability to fab it on the APU itself. They did not start with the decision to use eSRAM for latency, it was just a side benefit after all the choices were made.

Very insightful post. Though it aligns with a lot of our theories.

 

[Cyborg]

Is this better or on par with the previous leaks?

 

[SquiddyCracker]

So, someone who can understand these charts explain to me please.

What does this equal in terms of PS4 power?

Same, 75% etc????

65 vs 172

The Durango has 38% the speed

 

[Flatline]

Are you trolling here? Because you cannot simply add numbers together.
That's like saying 2 bathrooms in your house let you poop twice as fast.

artist was kidding but believe it or not he's just repeating the ridiculous excuses others have used multiple times in this forum.

 

[AgentP]

Is this better or on par with the previous leaks?

Technically it is just more of the previous leaks. The same numbers from the the bird's eye level, just more info on the details.

 

[Cyborg]

Technically it is just more of the previous leaks. The same numbers from the the bird's eye level, just more info on the details.

Thanx

 

[Angelus Errare]

My Xbox brethren rejoice! These specs were obviously leaked by MS 9 years ago to fool Sony into building that weak PS4. MS always uses hardware a generation beyond what's available on the market, it's a trend (well except the original Xbox since that was just a Geforce 3 with an extra vertex shader...but still trend!) MS will blow us away with their Yukon based dual APU monster with a raytracing chip using a AMD 9750 part.

Thank you based MS.

 

[phosphor112]

My Xbox brethren rejoice! These specs were obviously leaked by MS 9 years ago to fool Sony into building that weak PS4. MS always uses hardware a generation beyond what's available on the market, it's a trend (well except the original Xbox since that was just a Geforce 3 with an extra vertex shader...but still trend!) MS will blow us away with their Yukon based dual APU monster with a raytracing chip using a AMD 9750 part.

Thank you based MS.

Being able to poop in two different bathrooms at once confirmed.

 

[artist]

Are you trolling here? Because you cannot simply add numbers together.
That's like saying 2 bathrooms in your house let you poop twice as fast.

I was being sarcastic on purpose;

Coming out my sarcastic mode .. the GPU logic on the die would take up (a lot) more space the the Jaguar cores (which are tiny), so it's reasonable to expect increasing CPU core would come at a lower cost than the GPU.

You probably wont believe me but there were people in the past couple of days arguing exactly that - Durango has more RAM because of the 32MB ESRAM.

Yes that was the point

He was joking lol.

Correct.

 

[onQ123]

Except CPU speed and power, RAM quantity, disc read speed (likely), memory latency (it will trail there, DDR3 latency<GDDR5) etc...

I think, maybe someone more knowledgeable can explain better, but in a way the CPU will be the true limiting factor anyway. The GPU cannot actually create vertices/geometry or something like that. So it can improve some things yes, but not the most fundamental ones. Like a prettier coat of paint on the same building analogy.

So the PS4 alleged superior GPU can make some things look better, but not really fundamentally alter anything (if I'm correct)

PS4 is rumored to have 8 very wide vector units & also GPU's are not just GPU's anymore they are GPGPU's so they can do more than just add a pretty coat of paint on the same building.

 

[phosphor112]

PS4 is rumored to have 8 very wide vector units & also GPU's are not just GPU's anymore they are GPGPU's so they can do more than just add a pretty coat of paint on the same building.

I really hope that's true. I really really do, I'd love to see the compute this beast can do.

 

[Cidd]

PS4 is rumored to have 8 very wide vector units & also GPU's are not just GPU's anymore they are GPGPU's so they can do more than just add a pretty coat of paint on the same building.

Wouldn't this up the MB complexity and the BOM price?

At this rate the PS4 is looking like a $450+ console already.

 

[Angelus Errare]

PS4 is rumored to have 8 very wide vector units & also GPU's are not just GPU's anymore they are GPGPU's so they can do more than just add a pretty coat of paint on the same building.

They're both GCN parts so by extension they're both capable of GPGPU functions.

You should be saying PS4's GPU has 8ACEs with 8CLs making it much better when switching from rendering to compute (and at the same time kills the 14+4 theory)

 

[AgentP]

PS4 is rumored to have 8 very wide vector units & also GPU's are not just GPU's anymore they are GPGPU's so they can do more than just add a pretty coat of paint on the same building.

Nonsense.

He meant vector units attached to the CPU, not compute functions on the GPU.

Which are standard with the Jaguar cores, 128-bit AVX, nothing unusual. All the other "rumors" are pipe dreams with no valid source.

 

[phosphor112]

They're both GCN parts so by extension they're both capable of GPGPU functions.

You should be saying PS4's GPU has 8ACEs with 8CLs making it much better when switching from rendering to compute (and at the same time kills the 14+4 theory)

He meant vector units attached to the CPU, not compute functions on the GPU.

 

[B.O.O.M]

these leaks are from BEFORE the 360 launched!

Actually I believe this info is from a term paper Bill Gates wrote about his future plans for the xbox 720 back in College

 

[onQ123]

They're both GCN parts so by extension they're both capable of GPGPU functions.

You should be saying PS4's GPU has 8ACEs with 8CLs making it much better when switching from rendering to compute (and at the same time kills the 14+4 theory)

I wasn't saying that Xbox 720 GPU wasn't a GPGPU, I was replying to him saying this

" but in a way the CPU will be the true limiting factor anyway. The GPU cannot actually create vertices/geometry or something like that. So it can improve some things yes, but not the most fundamental ones. Like a prettier coat of paint on the same building analogy.

So the PS4 alleged superior GPU can make some things look better, but not really fundamentally alter anything (if I'm correct)"

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

I do wonder if Richard Leadbetter still stands by the bespoke GPU-like "Compute" module?

Paired up with the eight AMD cores, we find a bespoke GPU-like "Compute" module, designed to ease the burden on certain operations - physics calculations are a good example of traditional CPU work that are often hived off to GPU cores. We're assured that this is bespoke hardware that is not a part of the main graphics pipeline but we remain rather mystified by its standalone inclusion, bearing in mind Compute functions could be run off the main graphics cores and that devs could have the option to utilise that power for additional graphical grunt, if they so chose.

He seemed sceptical himself.

 

[phosphor112]

I do wonder if Richard Leadbetter still stands by the bespoke GPU-like "Compute" module?



He seemed sceptical himself.

I talked to him and he's confident it exists, but he doesn't know in what form.

 

[onQ123]

Nonsense.




Which are standard with the Jaguar cores, 128-bit AVX, nothing unusual. All the other "rumors" are pipe dreams with no valid source.

What's nonsense?

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

I talked to him and he's confident it exists, but he doesn't know in what form.

So whatever it is, we still don't know about it. I now wonder what it could do if it is as described.

 

[phosphor112]

So whatever it is, we still don't know about it. I now wonder what it could do if it is as described.

I wouldn't hold your breathe.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

I wouldn't hold your breathe.

Damn you phosphor! I thought it was some legit secret sauce. *Exhales*

 

[phosphor112]

Damn you phosphor! I thought it was some legit secret sauce. *Exhales*

Lol, well the guys I've spoken to aren't sure if the special compute like part is in addition to the GPU or not... so.. that's the big question.

 

[owasog]

The gap in power between the 720 and the PS4 is terrifying. I wonder how multiplats on 720 will fare

Probably like this:

Game designed for 1080p on PS4 -> 720p on xbox.
Game designed for 1080p @30fps on xbox -> 1080p @60fps on PS4

 

[Angelus Errare]

He meant vector units attached to the CPU, not compute functions on the GPU.

Haven't heard anything on said units outside of the standard AVX instruction set. Apologies regardless.

 

[RoboPlato]

Probably like this:

Game designed for 1080p on PS4 -> 720p on xbox.
Game designed for 1080p @30fps on xbox -> 1080p @60fps on PS4

There's a gap but it's not that big. Think more 900p for Durango games with some altered effects and some extra AA on PS4.

 

[amstradcpc]

Lol, well the guys I've spoken to aren't sure if the special compute like part is in addition to the GPU or not... so.. that's the big question.

If are in the gpu they are more scalar units.If out they are spus like spurs engine, talking with x86 cores via drivers.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Lol, well the guys I've spoken to aren't sure if the special compute like part is in addition to the GPU or not... so.. that's the big question.

I would hope that if it does exist it would be detailed in the documentation for devs. I've always thought that the whole 14+4 thing was a example use case in the docs that has been mixed up.

Or maybe the docs are a bit older and Sony decided to upgrade the GPU as a whole. Upgraded 18CUs vs 14+4CUs?

 

[Eideka]

Probably like this:

Game designed for 1080p on PS4 -> 720p on xbox.
Game designed for 1080p @30fps on xbox -> 1080p @60fps on PS4

I can see that happening, a real bummer for the next Xbox if it really turns out like that. :/

Laggin behind the PS4 in multiplatforms games will have a serious impact on sales and public perception.

 

[SniperHunter]

I can see that happening, a real bummer for the next Xbox if it really turns out like that. :/

Laggin behind the PS4 in multiplatforms games will have a serious impact on sales and public perception.

why do you care? Aren't you a extreme pc gamer anyway or is the xbox close to your heart?

 

[mrklaw]

There's a gap but it's not that big. Think more 900p for Durango games with some altered effects and some extra AA on PS4.

More like 1440x1080 vs 1920x1080, or just tweaked detail levels. I hope sub 1080 lines disappears next gen

 

[SniperHunter]

I have a question: Gaffers were saying these boxes won't be able to run UE4, Samaritan, agni's philosophy at 1080p and we should expect 720p. Does this still apply? will devs go for graphic fidelity over resolution again?

 

[PSGames]

There's a gap but it's not that big. Think more 900p for Durango games with some altered effects and some extra AA on PS4.

What happens when the game is 720p on PS4?

 

[Biggzy]

What happens when the game is 720p on PS4?

Neither consoles will be seeing sub-hd titles.

 

[Tears For Fears]

Dreading next gen, both consoles have terrible specs.

 

[XtremeXpider]

16 ROPs is sufficient to maintain 1080p, 32 comes across as overkill, but it could be useful for addressing stereoscopic 1080p for instance, or even 4K.

 

[dead monkey uk]

Dreading next gen, both consoles have terrible specs.

You are dreading a console that will improve on current gen specs in every way, how strange.

 

[venne]

You are dreading a console that will improve on current gen specs in every way, how strange.

Seven year itch.

The PS4 and nextbox don't scratch it.

 

[Ol No Bones]

People are gonna explode if the Xbox actually turns out to be powerful.

 

[dead monkey uk]

Seven year itch.

The PS4 and nextbox don't scratch it.

When you look at what can be achieved on a 7 year old console, I am sure the ps4 etc is going to be amazing.

 

[Rad-]

When you look at what can be achieved on a 7 year old console, I am sure the ps4 etc is going to be amazing.

Both 360 and PS3 specs were a lot more impressive back in 05-06 than 720 and PS4 specs are now though.

 

[CrunchinJelly]

Neither consoles will be seeing sub-hd titles.

There will be some 720p titles next gen. For sure.

 

[owasog]

I'm no hardware expert; is there an "easy" way for Microsoft to bump these specs before launch? (if they are real)

Like significantly increasing the RAM and/or GPU frequency?
Or double the RAM to 16GB, just to have a bigger number than Sony?

 

[nib95]

16 ROPs is sufficient to maintain 1080p, 32 comes across as overkill, but it could be useful for addressing stereoscopic 1080p for instance, or even 4K.

Sufficient based on games produced today. Need to keep that in mind, since games will get a lot more complex and taxing in the new generation. More graphical features, poly's, higher resolution textures, more post processing etc etc.

 

[Biggzy]

There will be some 720p titles next gen. For sure.

I meant below 720p.

 

[SSM25]

I'm no hardware expert; is there an "easy" way for Microsoft to bump these specs before launch? (if they are real)

Like significantly increasing the RAM and/or GPU frequency?
Or double the RAM to 16GB, just to have a bigger number than Sony?

Why?, so forum dwellers can brag about a number while increasing costs with no benefit?

 

[XtremeXpider]

Sufficient based on games produced today. Need to keep that in mind, since games will get a lot more complex and taxing in the new generation. More graphical features, poly's, higher resolution textures, more post processing etc etc.

Do you know what a ROP is?

EDIT: More o less textures, or more/less polygons don't affect the ROP:

The Render Output Unit, often abbreviated as "ROP", and sometimes called (perhaps more properly) Raster Operations Pipeline, is one of the final steps in the rendering process of modern 3D accelerator boards. The pixel pipelines take pixel and texel information and process it, via specific matrix and vector operations, into a final pixel or depth value. The ROPs perform the transactions between the relevant buffers in the local memory &#8212; this includes writing or reading values, as well as blending them together.

ERP from B3D:

More ROPS obviously only help you in ROP limited situations, hard to know how common that is with 16 ROPS.
Firstly with small triangles you get only about 1/4 of the performance because of the quad pixel organization so fill can be an issue for high polygon density low shader complexity scenarios.
Z though put might be an issue, when rendering shadow maps because you can probably exceed the performance of the RAM solution because of compression and the on chip caches.
My guess is in many of those cases you'd render to eSRAM and not main memory, and the improved efficiency might make up some of the difference.

 

[Cidd]

I'm no hardware expert; is there an "easy" way for Microsoft to bump these specs before launch? (if they are real)

Like significantly increasing the RAM and/or GPU frequency?
Or double the RAM to 16GB, just to have a bigger number than Sony?

To be honest when looking at the Specs of the Durango the RAM seems to be the least of their problem it's that GPU most should be worried about compared to the PS4 it's like a
HD 7770 vs HD 7870 that's a big gap imo.

 

[nib95]

Do you know what a ROP is?

I'm assuming then the above aforementioned additions will not affect the render output? Is it just on a per pixel/texel basis irrespective of what they will be forming?