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Canada Poligaf - The Wrath of Harperland

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Madness

Member
I would just like to say fuck BC voters. That is all.

Why? Because they didn't vote like you, or the way you wanted them to?

It's funny how people want to drastically change elections because they didn't get their intended result. I'm already seeing comments of mandatory voting, lowering the voting age, making online voting necessary.

People are fooling themselves if they think online voting will ever happen. So easy to hack, scam, steal personal info. Plus how would you verify it? I could take my older grandma's license and input her data and vote for someone I wanted, not necessarily her, how would elections BC ever know?

People are just disinterested in politics. I have several friends who said fuck it, they're all crooks and they're all the same. How is that a failure of the numerous polling stations, early ballots or the elections system?

We should be looking at why so many didn't vote. And for those saying fuck the people who voted Liberals, this is democracy. The majority of voters wanted Liberals and they got them. Clear and simple. I may not like it, you may not like it, but you have to respect it.
 

maharg

idspispopd
Looks like less than 50% voted in BC: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/bc-election/reacts+record+voter+turnout+election/8385293/story.html

Also, this Harper PMO thing seems to be blowing up. I wonder if Harper will be touched by it (in the sense it's shown he knew about it). It not only looks now like his COS paid $90,000 for Duffy, it also looks like the Senate committee whitewashed their verdict on Duffy as part of the backroom deal.

CPC Spin: "This is why we want to make the senate elected, so that we can't do back room deals. Also if Justin Trudeau were PM he'd want to decorate the senate chamber with pink sparkles!"
 
Nazi is just the short version. They were the National Socialist German Workers' Party.

Which doesn't really sound like the name of a right wing extremist party, does it?

Well I know that but you understood my point I was getting at ;)

People are just disinterested in politics. I have several friends who said fuck it, they're all crooks and they're all the same. How is that a failure of the numerous polling stations, early ballots or the elections system?

We should be looking at why so many didn't vote. And for those saying fuck the people who voted Liberals, this is democracy. The majority of voters wanted Liberals and they got them. Clear and simple. I may not like it, you may not like it, but you have to respect it.

Yeah this pretty much my feelings. People just don't care because the system sucks (FPTP), and everyone who gets into power lies all the same.

Naturally though governing parties dont give a fuck about this because they don't care whether their majority was from 50% or 10%, they are in power!
 

diaspora

Member
Looks like less than 50% voted in BC: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/bc-election/reacts+record+voter+turnout+election/8385293/story.html

Also, this Harper PMO thing seems to be blowing up. I wonder if Harper will be touched by it (in the sense it's shown he knew about it). It not only looks now like his COS paid $90,000 for Duffy, it also looks like the Senate committee whitewashed their verdict on Duffy as part of the backroom deal.

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I work fast.

Why? Because they didn't vote like you, or the way you wanted them to?

It's funny how people want to drastically change elections because they didn't get their intended result. I'm already seeing comments of mandatory voting, lowering the voting age, making online voting necessary.

People are fooling themselves if they think online voting will ever happen. So easy to hack, scam, steal personal info. Plus how would you verify it? I could take my older grandma's license and input her data and vote for someone I wanted, not necessarily her, how would elections BC ever know?

People are just disinterested in politics. I have several friends who said fuck it, they're all crooks and they're all the same. How is that a failure of the numerous polling stations, early ballots or the elections system?

We should be looking at why so many didn't vote. And for those saying fuck the people who voted Liberals, this is democracy. The majority of voters wanted Liberals and they got them. Clear and simple. I may not like it, you may not like it, but you have to respect it.

This is what irritates me about the idea that Harper somehow has a stolen majority. He doesn't- that economically illiterate little shit has a legit majority and bastardizing the process with proportional rep won't fix anything.
 
Looks like less than 50% voted in BC: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/bc-election/reacts+record+voter+turnout+election/8385293/story.html

Also, this Harper PMO thing seems to be blowing up. I wonder if Harper will be touched by it (in the sense it's shown he knew about it). It not only looks now like his COS paid $90,000 for Duffy, it also looks like the Senate committee whitewashed their verdict on Duffy as part of the backroom deal.

I wonder if all these scandals mean anything anymore after what happened in BC.

^ awesome posters.
 
This is what irritates me about the idea that Harper somehow has a stolen majority. He doesn't- that economically illiterate little shit has a legit majority and bastardizing the process with proportional rep won't fix anything.

He doesnt have a stolen majority. Its just the majority doesn't at all reflect the views of a majority of the population.

Proportional Representation is the most basic and fair system in my books. Every vote is counted. Under the current system does every vote matter? Nope. This is why many don't feel obliged to vote. Their votes are thrown in the garbage.

I've voted provincially 3 times, and federally 4 times. NOT ONCE has my vote counted. I could have stayed at home and shoved my thumbs up my ass like the other disenfranchised voters, and saved myself the gas to go to the polls.

How would you suggest curing voter apathy to the completely broken system we have now? Do nothing? Im honestly curious.
 

diaspora

Member
He doesnt have a stolen majority. Its just the majority doesn't at all reflect the views of a majority of the population.

PR would just result in an system where anyone outside of a handful of cities might as well not show up (a far more aggravated version of what we have already). The entire point of FPTP is to equalize the weight of municipalities in the country. PR is by far more unfair than FPTP can ever be.

NOT ONCE has my vote counted.

This is ludicrous- your vote has counted every time, just because your choice for your representative failed to win over a majority of the electorate in your area doesn't mean the system is broken.

How would you suggest curing voter apathy to the completely broken system we have now? Do nothing? Im honestly curious.

The problem is the politicians, not the system of voting.
 

diaspora

Member
If voter turnout is below what you deem optimal, is that necessarily an issue with the system, or the people?

Or even a combination of both manifesting in the excessive power that party leaders have- which can't really be curbed short of stripping/stunting their ability to control who does/doesn't get to be nominees.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
The problem is the politicians, not the system of voting.
It's both, really. I think the fact that we're so close to America means most Canadians see that voters there have the ability to directly elect the executive. Even if you loved Layton to death, voting NDP in the middle of Alberta is basically a meaningless vote since a) you're probably voting for some MP you might not know anything about and b) the only way your vote supports Layton is if your MP actually wins.

Or maybe I'm crazy for believing that most Canadians even know how Westminster works. lol
 

diaspora

Member
It's both, really. I think the fact that we're so close to America means most Canadians see that voters there have the ability to directly elect the executive. Even if you loved Layton to death, voting NDP in the middle of Alberta is basically a meaningless vote since a) you're probably voting for some MP you might not know anything about and b) the only way your vote supports Layton is if your MP actually wins.

Or maybe I'm crazy for believing that most Canadians even know how Westminster works. lol

Never, ever give people the benefit of the doubt imo.
 
This is ludicrous- your vote has counted every time, just because your choice for your representative failed to win over a majority of the electorate in your area doesn't mean the system is broken.

Guess we will disagree on that. IF we had PR my votes would've counted to something. Sorry but thats how the system works, votes are thrown in garbage.

If a candidate in my riding got 67% of votes, what did my vote do under this system?
 

diaspora

Member
Guess we will disagree on that. IF we had PR my votes would've counted to something. Sorry but thats how the system works, votes are thrown in garbage.

If we had PR, rural Canada might as well be thrown into the garbage. The whole point is to have representatives in Parliament representing each part of the country, the problem is PMO power consolidation, not the voting system.
 
If we had PR, rural Canada might as well be thrown into the garbage. The whole point is to have representatives in Parliament representing each part of the country, the problem is PMO power consolidation, not the voting system.

As a liberal voter in rural Canada for all 26 years of my life.

I don't see how its not unfair now.......

Sorry, but you are not making convincing arguments here :/
 

diaspora

Member
As a liberal voter in rural Canada for all 26 years of my life.

I don't see how its not unfair now.......

Sorry, but you are not making convincing arguments here :/

We're electing representatives of our municipality/region. PR destroys this.

EDIT: It's only unfair now because the PMO's agenda overrides an MP's ability to accurately represent the views of their constituents in the house.
 

SRG01

Member
If we had PR, rural Canada might as well be thrown into the garbage. The whole point is to have representatives in Parliament representing each part of the country, the problem is PMO power consolidation, not the voting system.

Fully agreed. Is the executive powers of the cabinet even in the constitution? Or is this an accepted tradition?

We're electing representatives of our municipality/region. PR destroys this.

Agreed with this as well. All it means is that urban areas get even more votes!
 

diaspora

Member
If the power of party leaders were to be effectively castrated and the focus of voting returned to choosing someone to represent us locally, the idea of a wasted vote is nil isn't it?
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Well, the whole idea of the "Prime" Minister came out of tradition anyway. When the term was first used, it was used as a term of derision - ie, like "tyrant" or "dictator".

I still think some form of MMP or PR or whatever would make the process more engaging to people like MyAbsolution, who basically (and I think rightly) feels like his vote has no real effect. In the same way that the people who vote Green outside of Elizabeth May's riding are also essentially "wasting" their vote in the vain hope that the Green Party will become a legitimate force.

Either you just have to tell those people that they will become enfranchised in several decades, in the same way that it took the NDP to gain traction over the last 50 years and the NDP faithful who have followed the party since its inception can finally see their candidates go to Parliament, or you change the system so that voters can see the results of their ballots in an immediate fashion.

The elegance of the US system, from a voting point of view, is that you essentially get to choose who represents you in your district, your state, and your country at the same time. You get agency in all three levels of federal government. Here, we just don't have anything like that.
 

diaspora

Member
The elegance of the US system, from a voting point of view, is that you essentially get to choose who represents you in your district, your state, and your country at the same time. You get agency in all three levels of federal government. Here, we just don't have anything like that.

The end result isn't particularly ideal thanks to the almost fanatical nature of the Democrats and GOP.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
You know, I wonder what would happen if Canada did go Republican though. The GG position would be defunct, of course, but would we replace that with a President? And would our head of state actually have power instead of just being a ceremonial diplomat?

It'll never happen, of course, but that could be one way of getting an elected executive and take us closer to a French system at least.
 

maharg

idspispopd
The elegance of the US system, from a voting point of view, is that you essentially get to choose who represents you in your district, your state, and your country at the same time. You get agency in all three levels of federal government. Here, we just don't have anything like that.

I'd argue, easily, that any given Canadian, has more agency in electoral politics than any given American. I really don't understand how you have such a view of American politics.

And I can't believe you just suggested that being like the French would be a good thing. What a mess.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
I'd argue, easily, that any given Canadian, has more agency in electoral politics than any given American. I really don't understand how you have such a view of American politics.

And I can't believe you just suggested that being like the French would be a good thing. What a mess.

Grass is always greener, I guess. Having only lived in Westminster hell, I can't help but think every other system is better than ours.

And really, Americans vote for EVERYTHING, for better or for worse. We have referrendums like once every few years, maybe - BC HST being the last one - while the Americans have agency over things like gay marriage, abortion, legalization of marijuan and so other issues that Canadian politicians are afraid to touch with a thousand foot pole.

Of course, they also vote for their judges and sheriffs, which sounds like the worst idea ever, but what can ya do. lol
 
We're electing representatives of our municipality/region. PR destroys this.

EDIT: It's only unfair now because the PMO's agenda overrides an MP's ability to accurately represent the views of their constituents in the house.

I see what you mean by PMO and party agenda overriding MPs representation. I think Nunavut had some weird system where you don't know the party affiliation or something to that affect (heard years ago, coulda been drunk!)

But I still think FPTP is a terrible gauge of getting representation especially when we have more than 2 parties. Some riding's have two-thirds of its voters voting for a left of centre party. And yet the vote is split, and conservatives grab the seat because they had 15 more votes than person in second (happened in north bay last fed election).

Or overall, you have an election where one party gets 7% of popular vote... ZERO SEATS.

And another party gets 10% of popular vote and gets .... 49 SEATS.

I mean that is so disproportionate to what voters want. That is 2007 fed election example.

I do agree PR is not perfect. But imo, it beats the shit out of this undemocratic joke we have now.
 
This is an interesting debate...how many voting systems are there? FTPT, MMS, PR...? I always was told FPTP was the worst, for seemingly obvious reasons.

Why is the Westminster bad? Or the French one?

I'd like to know better about these issues, thanks.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Westminster is what many Commonwealth countries derive their government structure from. Canada probably has the most traditional version of Westminster next to, well, Britain inasmuch as we don't have an elected Senate (appointments ala the House of Lords). Australia, for example, is also a Westminster democracy but has elected to adopt American-style systems including a bicameral system where both houses are elected (and in fact, BOTH houses have power over the budget) and, curiously, an independent state that houses their national capital.
In practical terms, this means we have a head of state, the GG whom represents the Queen/King, and the parliament answers to the GG. It's why, for example, the government has the GG read the budget to the public among other things.

Historically, in Britain, it was a system of governance created to allow for the crown to remain in defacto power, even if all the actual power is given to the people - in this case, represented by parliament.

I actually don't know how the Nordic countries, who also have sitting royalties, (or Japan for that matter) function, but I imagine that it is mostly the same. Arab countries seem to offer more power to their royalty (Jordan, for one), but I really don't know anything about how their governments are run either.

The other popular system of government is the Republican system. This is what the French and the Americans use, in that there is a directly elected executive who is the actual head of state and replaces the royalty. France, obviously, had their issues with their own royalty (to say the least) and America's existence is born out of not wanting to be subjects of the crown.

In terms of various forms of electoral systems, very few democratic countries actually use First Past The Post, which is exactly what it sounds like - the person in first place, regardless of how many votes are received, is declared the victor.

Most other democracies are use proportional representation of some sort (you vote for a party or a slate of candidates, not for an individual candidate) or preferential ballot voting (you rank your candidates from first to last, and only when someone receives 50% of the votes are they declared the victor - this is how party leaders are elected in Canada and the United States, for example).

I suppose every system has their advantages and disadvantages, but it's mostly academic since the last two attempts to change the electoral process in Canada ended in failure and we will definitely never break away from the Commonwealth any time soon.

Oh right, systems of governance are mutually exclusive with systems of voting. As mentioned above, Australia is also a Westminster style democracy, but they do not use FPTP to elect their members of parliament or senators.
 
Even though Harper is crippling and eliminating it, your party of choice still gets voter subsidy if you vote them, even if they're not going to win your riding. So it's not entirely useless.
 
Hey BCers, your voter turnout was low. You can't fault old people and habitual voters for being the only ones who showed up.

When half your eligible voters don't vote, it's the hardcore and seniors who decide elections.
 

diaspora

Member
Or overall, you have an election where one party gets 7% of popular vote... ZERO SEATS.

The popular national vote doesn't and should never get to decide who represents a riding. If the majority of Markham-Unionville chooses a certain MP, the popular vote in the rest of the country shouldn't change that.

And another party gets 10% of popular vote and gets .... 49 SEATS.

Again, the percentage of party support nationally is irrelevant- ultimately 49 candidates successfully lobbied their ridings to become their representative- how the rest of the country feels about the party is irrelevant to who a riding chooses to represent them.

I mean that is so disproportionate to what voters want. That is 2007 fed election example.

It's totally in line with what the constituents in each riding want though- if nothing else, instituting ranked balloting would be a better step forward IMO.

I do agree PR is not perfect. But imo, it beats the shit out of this undemocratic joke we have now.

But PR is less democratic than FPTP, we'd have the popular national vote imposing MPs on ridings and municipalities rather than the local constituents deciding. Don't get me wrong, I get where you're coming from on this, it's just that if the grits (for example) take all of Ontario and urban Quebec- which would be a massive portion of the national population, why should that decide who the MP in other parts of the country are?

Hey BCers, your voter turnout was low. You can't fault old people and habitual voters for being the only ones who showed up.

When half your eligible voters don't vote, it's the hardcore and seniors who decide elections.

This.
 

maharg

idspispopd
But PR is less democratic than FPTP, we'd have the popular national vote imposing MPs on ridings and municipalities rather than the local constituents deciding.

You may find it less desirable, but PR is almost by definition more democratic than FPTP. It better represents the will of all the people. FPTP only represents the will of the plurality of the plurality.

Of course all working systems are some kind of tradeoff between democracy (rule by the people), stability (not having a popular government face constant threats of expulsion), and regional and/or minority rights. But the government accurately reflecting the makeup of the population is a step towards and not away from democracy.

Also in a pure PR system no one's representative is forced on them, they're just not representing a region at all. That does potentially mean less accountability, of course.

I think at this point my preferred system would be large multi-member ridings. It's not mathematically complicated and comes reasonably close to achieving proportionality.
 

BorkBork

The Legend of BorkBork: BorkBorkity Borking
Hey BCers, your voter turnout was low. You can't fault old people and habitual voters for being the only ones who showed up.

When half your eligible voters don't vote, it's the hardcore and seniors who decide elections.

I wonder how much of it was that people didn't bother to vote after seeing the polls indicating that the NDP would win.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
So regions don't have anyone representing them anymore or...?
Multimember ridings would allow for directly elected MPs and would also allow for people to be better represented because you could potentially have the top two or three candidates elected. It's how Australia elects its Senators.

The problem is, of course, that you have to convince Canadians to have more politicians. I'm sure the Canadian Tax Payer's Federation or whatever they're called would hate it. lol
 

diaspora

Member
Multimember ridings would allow for directly elected MPs and would also allow for people to be better represented because you could potentially have the top two or three candidates elected. It's how Australia elects its Senators.

The problem is, of course, that you have to convince Canadians to have more politicians. I'm sure the Canadian Tax Payer's Federation or whatever they're called would hate it. lol

Why not FPTP with ranked ballots then? This way you have a house with MPs representing their riding with a decided real majority of their constituents.
 

lupinko

Member
Hey BCers, your voter turnout was low. You can't fault old people and habitual voters for being the only ones who showed up.

When half your eligible voters don't vote, it's the hardcore and seniors who decide elections.

That's what I told my coworker this morning.

Anyway I voted, even though I don't usually agree with the BC Liberals they are closer to my political preference than the BC NDP, BC Conservatives or Greens.

My MLA didn't win tho, since my riding, provincial or federal always leans heavily NDP.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Why not FPTP with ranked ballots? Then you have a house with MPs representing their riding with a decided real majority of their constituents.
STV is a ranked ballot system as well, just that it isn't strictly winner take all. So you may have situations where someone in second place will lose because although they have the second-most first-choice ballots, they have fewer second-choice than other choices after votes are transferred.
The wiki better illustrates this than I can describe it anyway.
 

maharg

idspispopd
So regions don't have anyone representing them anymore or...?

In a unicameral system with full PR regions have no one representing them at the federal level. The people do, the regions don't.

Regional interests are a counterbalance *against* democracy.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
In a unicameral system with full PR regions have no one representing them at the federal level. The people do, the regions don't.

Regional interests are a counterbalance *against* democracy.
Hence the complaints about the Senate in the US anyway.

(Why do states with 20 people get to ruin gun legislation?!, etc etc).
 

diaspora

Member
In a unicameral system with full PR regions have no one representing them at the federal level. The people do, the regions don't.

Regional interests are a counterbalance *against* democracy.

Then you have a worse situation where 3-4 parts of the country get their agenda put forward at the expense of the rest of the country.

edit: that actually seems like the perfect recipe for having swaths of the country not even have any representation in government at all.
 

maharg

idspispopd
Then you have a worse situation where 3-4 parts of the country get their agenda put forward at the expense of the rest of the country.

edit: that actually seems like the perfect recipe for having swaths of the country not even have any representation in government at all.

Sure. And that's why all working systems balance against pure democratic principles in various ways. But that is democratic by definition.
 
That's what I told my coworker this morning.

Anyway I voted, even though I don't usually agree with the BC Liberals they are closer to my political preference than the BC NDP, BC Conservatives or Greens.

My MLA didn't win tho, since my riding, provincial or federal always leans heavily NDP.

Why would you knowingly elect a corrupt government though? x_x

Other ideologies implemented correctly and effectively is better than my or your own ideology implemented wrong IMO.
 

diaspora

Member
Why would you knowingly elect a corrupt government though? x_x

Other ideologies implemented correctly and effectively is better than my or your own ideology implemented wrong IMO.

Because the alternative also has the taint of corruption. So really, between two unclean parties it'd make sense to vote for the one that's at least closer ideologically.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Then you have a worse situation where 3-4 parts of the country get their agenda put forward at the expense of the rest of the country.

edit: that actually seems like the perfect recipe for having swaths of the country not even have any representation in government at all.

Well, you could always transfer more power to the provinces/territories, like the US. I'm sure Alberta would love that. lol
 

anaron

Member
Because the alternative also has the taint of corruption. So really, between two unclean parties it'd make sense to vote for the one that's at least closer ideologically.
Except nothing really compares to the Liberal's record over the last the ten years.
 
Because the alternative also has the taint of corruption. So really, between two unclean parties it'd make sense to vote for the one that's at least closer ideologically.

Which alternative? There are plenty to choose from and I doubt they are all corrupt. I would have voted Greens personally.

If we are talking about Dix's past scandals, I think it would be unfair to judge him by those but let Clark get away with all she's done, and she's done much worse. I'm not a BCer so I don't know about Dix's record, but overall he sounded much more competent than Clark. BC under him couldn't have possibly been run worse than under Clark (but what do I know...)
 
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