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[codhand]

It all comes down to personal preference. Using the stick lets you keep your hands closer to the face buttons while using the touch screen doesn't. Any of the reviews saying the controls don't work or are extremely inaccurate never bothered to sit down and practice making the shapes for more than a minute.

i dunno, if the game defaults to using the touchscreen, but the stick is better, that's a knock against the original game design and the wii u for providing a useless feature.

still might get this at the Target buy two get one sale, but watching the Saur video just reinforces that there are control problems present, even if practice and discovery eliminate much of the frustration it's still weak that the touchscreen isn't effective when that's what's presented as the standard

 

[TnK]

This is honestly the best game I have played since Bayonetta. In terms of story, it is leagues ahead of bayonetta, and has characters that actually develop. Plus, the story is simple, charming, and most importantly, funny.

I really hope we see a sequel to this game. I somewhat bame nintendo for not advertising this game well, because imo, this IS Wii U's system seller. I have no idea what those reviewers were on when they gave this game a low score. I sometimes fear that the revirw community has become too soft, and cannot handle hard games.

 

[JoeFu]

How the heck does watching Saur's videos show there are control problems? Seriously... This game controls as good as the player. If you learn limit of the shapes you can draw anything no problem.

This game controls beautifully and the only thing limiting it is the player.

 

[JoeFenix]

i dunno, if the game defaults to using the touchscreen, but the stick is better, that's a knock against the original game design and the wii u for providing a useless feature.

still might get this at the Target buy two get one sale, but watching the Saur video just reinforces that there are control problems present, even if practice and discovery eliminate much of the frustration it's still weak that the touchscreen isn't effective when that's what's presented as the standard

There is no default, both are active at the same time. You can mix it up to your hearts content.

And what exactly do these videos highlight in terms of design flaws? The controls are pretty much perfect if you're clean with your inputs.

 

[schlew]

Did the Metal Gear Rising reference make anybody else bust out laughing? Really awesomely timed and everything. This game is just alsdkfjas;lkgjas;ldkfjas;lgkhjas;ldfkj;asgklajsdf

I'm not sure what game can top this for me. Storywise and everything. It was just so good. One of my all time favorites. Gonna take a break from it while playing WWHD before diving into hard mode.

Would you mind spoiler tagging the Revengeance reference for me? I tend to miss this sort of stuff (if it's off to the site and not a sequence everyone will see), and I'm kind of curious.

 

[daakusedo]

Are you sure you didn't hit the miiverse button on the bottom left of the screen? Sometimes I hit that and the game freezes up for 30 seconds or so while it loads up miiverse. It's annoying, but you shouldn't loose any progress if you just wait it out.

I was using the right stick, so I'm sure I didn't do that.
It was a freeze with the horrible sound and all.

 

[D-e-f-]

i dunno, if the game defaults to using the touchscreen, but the stick is better, that's a knock against the original game design and the wii u for providing a useless feature.

still might get this at the Target buy two get one sale, but watching the Saur video just reinforces that there are control problems present, even if practice and discovery eliminate much of the frustration it's still weak that the touchscreen isn't effective when that's what's presented as the standard

As was already said, there is no default and it's not a flaw in the original game design. It's a matter of preference and skill level. Don't wanna invest in learning to draw moves quickly and doing crazy combos? Relax and draw on the screen for casual play. Wanna go crazy bananas? Use the stick. Wanna switch around when you feel like it? Just use whichever you like, whenever you like it.

 

[chronosic]

I use the screen for drawing and I have no problems with it. People are just butthurt because there's no 15 minute handholding tutorial making you repeat shapes over and over again until you get it, but then if there was they'd complain that they don't need a tutorial to learn to draw.

 

[JoeFu]

Would you mind spoiler tagging the Revengeance reference for me? I tend to miss this sort of stuff (if it's off to the site and not a sequence everyone will see), and I'm kind of curious.

It's at the end of a boss fight... forget which one.

Spoiler

But Vorkken's ship (I think? Might be Immorta's, been a few days and my memory sucks) comes from behind and pulls out a fuel cell and eats/crushes a it like Raiden does when you do a Zandatsu

I know I saw it, but I just can't remember which boss fight haha.

 

[Roto13]

How do I get in here in Operation 004-B?

It's very early in the level. Right after the first fight.

 

[chronosic]

There's so many nods to other games. So far I've noticed Okami, Pacman, and Castlevania, and I'm sure there's tons more.

 

[Subaru]

How do I get in here in Operation 004-B?

It's very early in the level. Right after the first fight.

I don't know for sure, but I guess that

Spoiler

you have to get some "ability/skill/weapon" that you can't have it during this part on your gameplay

 

[Roto13]

I don't know for sure, but I guess that

Spoiler

you have to get some "ability/skill/weapon" that you can't have it during this part on your gameplay

I have them all already. And that's probably not true.

 

[Regiruler]

I forgot to mention that I loved the part where

Spoiler

Chewgi

and then

Spoiler

Vorkken

proceed to

Spoiler

pull a big damn heroes during 007-B

.

How do I get in here in Operation 004-B?

It's very early in the level. Right after the first fight.

Spoiler

There's an area to the right that you can jump down to that has a pipe. IIRC it also has a Bomb Centinel box.

 

[zroid]

The attention to detail in this game is staggering

 

[Subaru]

I have them all already. And that's probably not true.

Oh

Spoiler

I was thinking that would be possible to go there using unite bomb... sorry

 

[codhand]

Just use whichever you like, whenever you like it.

perhaps, but it strikes me more that they set out to have the gamepad touch controls as integral but realized it couldnt keep up with high-level play so added the stick option, rather than they were so prescient and had the foresight to provide a play the way you want approach

still most likely picking this up, the videos help me understand the mechanics,

the tutorial on the demo, i dont recall mentioning the stick as an option,

 

[Regiruler]

Going back through some older posts...

-Operation 7 is a real stinker

You're a terrible person: mission 007 was awesome.

perhaps, but it strikes me more that they set out to have the gamepad touch controls as integral but realized it couldnt keep up with high-level play so added the stick option, rather than they were so prescient and had the foresight to provide a play the way you want approach

still most likely picking this up, the videos help me understand the mechanics,

the tutorial on the demo, i dont recall mentioning the stick as an option,

They are better in different situations as well so it's not always just one or the other. Variety is a good thing.

 

[JoeFenix]

Just Pure Platinum'd 2-C, the bosses in this game are sooooo good. This one must have atleast 25+ attacks and variations on patterns that he throws at you. It's such a dense experience, so many tricks and counters for you to discover.

So the problem I was having with the unite counters was due to me switching to the whip too late. There's a red targetting reticle on the ground, switch to the whip right when that appears and you'll be ok.

 

[Roto13]

I forgot to mention that I loved the part where

Spoiler

Chewgi

and then

Spoiler

Vorkken

proceed to

Spoiler

pull a big damn heroes during 007-B

.

Spoiler

There's an area to the right that you can jump down to that has a pipe. IIRC it also has a Bomb Centinel box.

Ugh, a barely-visible line that's red instead of blue and that's supposed to mark that particular section of the invisible wall as conspicuous.

Thanks.

 

[Squishy3]

It's at the end of a boss fight... forget which one.

Spoiler

But Vorkken's ship (I think? Might be Immorta's, been a few days and my memory sucks) comes from behind and pulls out a fuel cell and eats/crushes a it like Raiden does when you do a Zandatsu

I know I saw it, but I just can't remember which boss fight haha.

There's also the one in 005-C

Spoiler

where Laambo's brother says he isn't fighting you over something silly like revengeance.

 

[Neff]

How the heck does watching Saur's videos show there are control problems? Seriously... This game controls as good as the player. If you learn limit of the shapes you can draw anything no problem.

This game controls beautifully and the only thing limiting it is the player.

If Street Fighter II was reviewed by modern gaming journalism standards, it'd be hovering around the MC 80% area simply because the Hadoken only works 5/10 times for first time players. No media outlets would be willing to admit this, but it's more than likely the stark truth of the matter.

Anything but a free pass for the player is written off as poor design, and that's a terrible, terrible thing when the artform you're critiquing is based around player application.

 

[GodParticle]

Dear god, why is the OS so slooooooooow. 30+ minutes to install this thing???

 

[marc^o^]

How the heck does watching Saur's videos show there are control problems? Seriously... This game controls as good as the player. If you learn limit of the shapes you can draw anything no problem.

This game controls beautifully and the only thing limiting it is the player.

I'm 13 hours in the game, I have Wonder Black, White and Yellow, and I now draw all shapes flawlessly with the right hand stick. There's a learning curve to controls, and any serious gamer review should have seen it as a positive thing. Did SSF4 score better on 3DS because it had an easy touchscreen mode to pull special moves? Hell no, people would have laughed at such an idea. Controls in TW101 are 100% skilled based, once you get a drawing that registers and reproduce it consistantly, it's pure win.

 

[Regiruler]

I'm 13 hours in the game, I have Wonder Black, White and Yellow, and I now draw all shapes flawlessly with the right hand stick. There's a learning curve to controls, and any serious gamer review should have seen it as a positive thing. Did SSF4 score better on 3DS because it had an easy touchscreen mode to pull special moves? Hell no, people would have laughed at such an idea. Controls in TW101 are 100% skilled based, once you get a drawing that registers and reproduce it consistantly, it's pure win.

To be fair you need to be superhuman to pull off every move perfectly 100% of the time, especially when

Spoiler

Unify Naginata and Unite Bowgun

get involved.
Granted the latter is optional most of the time although

Spoiler

it was oddly really good during the Jergingha segment where you have to hit the glowing spots on his limbs.

 

[Scum]

I use the Right analogue stick for in game shenanigans and touch screen for QTEs.
The Street Fighter II analogy is absolutely fucking spot on!

 

[Retro_]

Anyone suggesting that either or is absolutely better is wrong I think.

I've used both in my playthrough and I'm thankful to have both as an option.

 

[Muchi Muchi Pink]

How the heck does watching Saur's videos show there are control problems? Seriously... This game controls as good as the player. If you learn limit of the shapes you can draw anything no problem.

This game controls beautifully and the only thing limiting it is the player.

I don't know, because saur even says there is none. It's really just learning the inputs. That's what you do in fighting games as well. I don't even need anymore to see the drawing. I KNOW when I did the right one. Muscle Memory.


Btw secret mission 006 oh boy.

 

[Scum]

Anyone suggesting that either or is absolutely better is wrong I think.

I've used both in my playthrough and I'm thankful to have both as an option.

Most definitely. It's just the "solution" I'm comfortable with at the moment. I just think most of the reviews that were quick to dismiss the controls like they were broken were just absurd.

 

[daakusedo]

I'm cursed, another freeze and I was already frustrated cause in the runs I did I could retry after the results.
Here in normal 01-a after the first secret mission, combo was not enough but the retry put you after the fight, ugh...

 

[Retro_]

people comparing this to fighting games are half right.

but they're also half wrong too.

actually look at the motions you're doing for some of the shapes, and the degree of difference between other almost overlapping motions and I think you'll see why some people are having trouble. and why none of the "motions" in 101 would ever be in an actual fighting game.(or even any other action game)

Can the control inconsistencies be overcome through practice and experience? absolutely. but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[taoofjord]

I'm surprised at how many people recommend playing this on easy. I'm playing on normal and finding it a perfect challenge and not frustrating.

Also, switching to Japanese voices is also highly recommended!

 

[bart64]

people comparing this to fighting games are half right.

but they're also half wrong too.

actually look at the motions you're doing for some of the shapes, and the degree of difference between other almost overlapping motions and I think you'll see why some people are having trouble. and why none of the "motions" in 101 would ever be in an actual fighting game.(or even any other action game)

Can the control inconsistencies be overcome through practice and experience? absolutely. but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Wait, are you suggesting that because you are inconsistent with the controls, it's the fault of the controller? Why not appreciate there is something new to learn and master, especially when it's this interesting and well executed?

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Wait, are you suggesting that because you are inconsistent with the controls, it's the fault of the controller? Why not appreciate there is something new to learn and master, especially when it's this interesting and well executed?

He said the inputs can(and will) very easily overlap each other, but you can learn to play around the inconsistencies and various nuances

 

[Squishy3]

perhaps, but it strikes me more that they set out to have the gamepad touch controls as integral but realized it couldnt keep up with high-level play so added the stick option, rather than they were so prescient and had the foresight to provide a play the way you want approach

still most likely picking this up, the videos help me understand the mechanics,

the tutorial on the demo, i dont recall mentioning the stick as an option,

It definitely does, right after the section where you finish defending against the tankers with the shield it says "Use the right stick to extend the wonder-liner up the building to create a ladder."

people comparing this to fighting games are half right.

but they're also half wrong too.

actually look at the motions you're doing for some of the shapes, and the degree of difference between other almost overlapping motions and I think you'll see why some people are having trouble. and why none of the "motions" in 101 would ever be in an actual fighting game.(or even any other action game)

Can the control inconsistencies be overcome through practice and experience? absolutely. but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

In Street Fighter 4, I can sometimes get an EX dragon punch when meaning to do an ultra. That doesn't mean that the controls are at fault. The same exact logic applies to The Wonderful 101. Hell, I think there's only two unite morphs that have the overlapping issues everyone complains about (Whip and Hammer) and it's something easily rectified by spending a little time practicing it.

 

[Mr-Joker]

This game froze again during a PP run, it's astonishing how against me it is...
Patching seriously needed, the game is full of glitch on top of that.

Yeah that happened to me once, luckily I only just started the level and didn't lose too much progress.

How the heck does watching Saur's videos show there are control problems? Seriously... This game controls as good as the player. If you learn limit of the shapes you can draw anything no problem.

This game controls beautifully and the only thing limiting it is the player.

Because reviewers are stupid and don't know what they are talking about.

The game is fine once you get to grip with it.

Ugh, a barely-visible line that's red instead of blue and that's supposed to mark that particular section of the invisible wall as conspicuous.

Thanks.

Yeah that caught me out as well as I thought you couldn't jump there.

Also, switching to Japanese voices is also highly recommended!

Nah the English voice actors do a pretty good job, beside I feel some of the game charm would be lost if I switch it to Japanese.

 

[Muchi Muchi Pink]

"In any other action game" Well, and that's what makes tw101 different. It's not just copying the "standard" control layout of others. And that's probably why it turns off some people. We need to get ride off to think every game need to control like the other ones.

I don't know I'm not having any problems with the controls, it's just different.

 

[bart64]

He said the inputs can(and will) very easily overlap each other, but you can learn to play around the inconsistencies and various nuances

And I'm saying there are no inconsistencies to the controls, the game will always read a proper shape. The inconsistency comes in poorly drawn shapes, where the game has to guess what the hell you tried to draw, and even then it does a decent job of helping you out. If the game didn't read the proper shapes consistently, it would be a faulty game, but in this game it's because you suck.

 

[Retro_]

Wait, are you suggesting that because you are inconsistent with the controls, it's the fault of the controller? Why not appreciate there is something new to learn and master, especially when it's this interesting and well executed?

No I'm saying there's a reason why fighting games don't have you drawing fucking pictures like 101. So it's dumb as hell to compare 101's controls to them as they're trying to do different things. 101 wanted a fun, unique interesting and intuitive control scheme. Fighting games want motions that are designed to be performed fast, efficiently and precisely.

because it's not easy to be fast and precise drawing z's or hearts in neutral, where if you touch any edge but certain corners you get another shape. (There's a reason why inputs in 2D fighting games mostly use the edge if the gate as a guide, rather than have to connecting the dots of a star or some shit)

I think it's more fun and interesting than using tried and true fighting game motions, but it's also inherently slower and less precise.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

And I'm saying there are no inconsistencies to the controls, the game will always read a proper shape. The inconsistency comes in poorly drawn shapes, where the game has to guess what the hell you tried to draw, and even then it does a decent job of helping you out. If the game didn't read the proper shapes consistently, it would be a faulty game, but in this game it's because you suck.

It's simply a less precise system than the typical third person action game because of the increased range of motions(and thus larger chance for error), I think that's all he's saying.

 

[abstract alien]

Honestly, the controls have been absolutely perfect for me. Not a single issue. I have no idea what is causing people to have so many problems outside of maybe panicking mid combat and trying to rush draw a symbol. I have a few issues with the game, but the controls have been perfect honestly. I've had a much more rough time with some of the spontaneous events that happen which cause me to die, and the "mini" sections like the one where you

Spoiler

fight in the gas chamber on the gamepad

.

Controls though? Not one problem. That isn't to say someone can't dislike them, but dislike doesn't equal flawed.

 

[Retro_]

In Street Fighter 4, I can sometimes get an EX dragon punch when meaning to do an ultra. That doesn't mean that the controls are at fault. The same exact logic applies to The Wonderful 101. Hell, I think there's only two unite morphs that have the overlapping issues everyone complains about (Whip and Hammer) and it's something easily rectified by spending a little time practicing it.

You're not doing what I asked you to.

Don't look at the user. Look at the actual "motions" you're performing when doing unite morphs in 101. Look at all the possibilities that would register a correct morph and compare them to the possibilities of other morphs(ex Sharp edges vs curved edges being the difference between claw and whip at time. or whip and bomb)

Your example in SF4 means that you didn't press enough buttons.(not even an example of motion error) My example in 101 means I touched or dragged the stick along a corner of the gate I didn't mean to making my sharp angle a soft curve..

It's simply a less precise system than the typical third person action game because of the increased range of motions(and thus larger chance for error), I think that's all he's saying.

Thank you.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

I love the game and I realized this and accepted it a long time ago. Hasn't had any real effect on my enjoyment of the game at all.

You don't have to attack and dismiss all criticism to like something. The reviewer's experience is just as valid as Saur's.

 

[JoeFenix]

More room for error means the skill ceiling is higher. Not necessarily a bad thing in an action game!

 

[ViewtifulJC]

I don't get all depressed about the mixed reviews, or the absolute shit sales. I didn't take part in any of the earlier "woo is us hardcore japanese action games that don't get good scores like these cinematic western action games " pity-parties that pop up in this thread occasionally. It's like I said earlier, I love the game, but I completely and totally understand why so, so many people aren't gonna get on with it.

And that's ok, and that's valid, and I'm just thankful I'm the kind of guy who can get on with this game very well, because it's really pretty special if you connect with it.

 

[bart64]

Retro, you misquoted me above!!

I see what you're both saying but I think you're using the wrong language. The controls are not inconsistent, they are demanding. The control methods is not less precise, it's more precise and therefore can accommodate more subtle input differences.

 

[Muchi Muchi Pink]

I'm sure the SF II analogy was made not because tw101 does inputs in the same way, but that people had to learn a different input technique at that time as well.

 

[Retro_]

More room for error means the skill ceiling is higher. Not necessarily a bad thing in an action game!

Retro, you misquoted me above!!

I see what you're both saying but I think you're using the wrong language. The controls are not inconsistent, they are demanding. The control methods is not less precise, it's more precise and therefore can accommodate more subtle input differences.

Hey. Fair enough. That's a totally valid way to see it.

But I think it's also equally valid to think the opposite like some reviewers.

What I don't think is really valid or necessary is attacking the reviews without really considering why they were having the problems they had, and dismissing them by just saying "get good" essentially.

and that's what I was mostly addressing in this thread because honestly I'm tired of seeing it.

I'm sure the SF II analogy was made not because tw101 does inputs in the same way, but that people had to learn a different input technique at that time as well.

The problem with the analogy is that it isn't even true. SFII was extraordinarily popular among players and critics alike and its control scheme has endured for about 3 decades because of how efficient and precise it.was.

Just a way to dismiss the negative criticism of reviewers without having to do any real thinking

 

[JoeFenix]

Hey. Fair enough. That's a totally valid way to see it.

But I think it's also equally valid to think the opposite like some reviewers.

What I don't think is really valid or necessary is attacking the reviews without really considering why they were having the problems they had, and dismissing them by just saying "get good" essentially.

and that's what I was mostly addressing in this thread because honestly I'm tired of seeing it.

Well if you're going to be paid to review something then I would expect you to atleast give the game the respect it deserves and explore the possibility that the "issues" with the controls are only due to your lack of understanding and skill. It's fine to state that the game is very demanding and might not appeal to a wide audience but to say the controls are inaccurate as some kind of factual statement is where I take issue.

It's perfectly legit for reviewers to say they didn't enjoy the game but when they don't understand the nuances at play and just pin the blame on the game it's a problem. The goal of a review is to inform, not to spread misinformation. It's just embarassing that these people are PAID to write about games and they can't even do that on a serious level. It's about time they step their game up honestly, it's your job, take it seriously.

 

[Retro_]

I'm done talking about the reviews. Especially if people are still unable to grasp that reviews are subjective by nature..

They aren't car manuals. Detailed lists and explanations of mechanics and assessments of game systems and depth. They're descriptions of a person's personal experience with the game.

Instead of focusing so much on the reviews, why don't we go back to talking about the game itself and why it's fun and good?

I'm sure that'll do more to convince lurkers to give this game a chance(and combat the effect of the reviews) than to keep bringing up how the reviewers are scrubs who probably can't even do fireballs!!!

because at the end of the day, who even remembers the fucking Bayonetta reviews? or the Vanquish ones? but people pick the games up even now because of our enthusiasm towards them in the OTs and other threads.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Not to contradict you because I agree with the general sentiment, but I do think a lot of Godhand's LTTP appeal was because of that infamous 3.0/10 IGN review and the backlash directly from it.