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[McHuj]

Technical fellows around the world are embarrassed.

 

[cyberheater]

It's ok GAF you succeed to make me believe that the xbox one is a piece of crap.

Which is a shame because it really isn't. It may not be as powerful as the PS4 but it's still a nice system which will have plenty of beautiful looking next gen games.

 

[Horp]

Feel free to expand on why he's wrong. His argument seems convincing.

There are tons of things you can do with fillrate that doesn't directly affect memory streaming. He just uses the example when you push pixels to the final renderbuffer of a game. How about pixel shaders that do more than just push pixels?
You could have a small texture (less memory streaming), but want to tile it up 100 times, or do something with it to create a cool full screen post effect, then that would require tons of more fill rate but wont be affected by memory.

 

[twobear]

Basically when i hear balance what I hear is "everything is mediocre so there's no bottlenecks... but there's also nothing exceptional."


Is that wrong? Serious question.... i'm not trolling.

That's pretty much right, yeah.

 

[Teletraan1]

What I find funny is that we are automatically supposed to accept Microsoft's phony premise that they have balanced their system in unheralded, unseen before ways while Sony has not bothered to do so.

Sony's major error to do date has been not responding by giving a detailed account. They falsely assume that previous interviews on this front will suffice. Gamers have short memories and people who do not frequent message boards have no reason to not accept tech statements at face value. If they have committed any gaffe's as of late, it is by not going full nuclear on the "balance front" the last month. While Microsoft has been an embarrassment to us, you can count on the larger market picking up on some of this spin.

Their response will be in a few months when all the games look better on their system. They dont need to say shit.

 

[artist]

Feel free to expand on why he's wrong. His argument seems convincing.

He's saying in other words 32ROPs are overkill for a setup with ~164GB/s memory bandwidth.

I guess all of these GPUs are unbalanced;

GTX680: 32ROPs @ 192GB/s
GTX660Ti: 24ROPs @ 144GB/s
7870: 32ROPs @ 153GB/s

 

[Pain]

Microsoft making Digital Foundry it's bitch

 

[RedNumberFive]

I guess I'm going to have to get used to balance being the new metric for computational performance.

 

[beast786]

Which is a shame because it really isn't. It may not be as powerful as the PS4 but it's still a nice system which will have plenty of beautiful looking next gen games.

hope

 

[mrlovepump]

Something I am interested to know is that it is inferred in this and other interviews (from both camps) that the PS4 will not use all of its CUs for graphical work but use some (four?) for compute tasks. I am really interested to know if this is just developer choice or if in reality they cannot hit all of the CUs efficiently and are actually forced by some bottle neck (bandwidth?) to use say 14-16 CUs for graphics only.

Would really like to know as it would put us in a better position to understand its true advantage rather than the bloated one it is given by the diehards.

 

[artist]

Something I am interested to know is that it is inferred in this and other interviews (from both camps) that the PS4 will not use all of its CUs for graphical work but use some (four?) for compute tasks. I am really interested to know if this is just developer choice or if in reality they cannot hit all of the CUs efficiently and are actually forced by some bottle neck (bandwidth?) to use say 14-16 CUs for graphics only.

Would really like to know as it would put us in a better position to understand its true advantage rather than the bloated one it is given by the diehards.

It is something that Microsoft wants people to believe. Performance scales pretty nicely with additional CUs.

 

[RedNumberFive]

Holy shit I'm dying!

 

[OverHeat]

Which is a shame because it really isn't. It may not be as powerful as the PS4 but it's still a nice system which will have plenty of beautiful looking next gen games.

I'm just messing around, already have my day one edition ordered. WiiU PC XBOX one and PS4 under my tv this year.

 

[frizby]

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_playstation_4_with_mark_.php?page=1

From this article, I learned that the guy who approved Mark Cerny to lead the PS4 design was none other than Phil Harrison.

Realizing how passionate he was about the PlayStation 4 project, after Thanksgiving, Cerny went to Sony's then-execs Phil Harrison and Masa Chatani, "and asked if I could lead the next generation effort. And to my great surprise, they said yes."

Yes, that Phil Harrison.

 

[Respawn]

well I like to read about every gadget I want to buy, I don't get carried on because of specs mainly, but the conclusion of some of the articles I read (depending on the source, of course).

I think PS4 will look better, but I don't think they will look that MUCH as many expect, or give for granted, and no, I don't think about the "console parity" many start to complain by now. I'm sure XB1 can do 1080p as PS4 will do, and I can help but feel we'll see 720p titles as well in both platforms, though I'd love to be wrong because I'm used to play almost every PC game on my rig downsampled from 2560x1440 on my 55" TV, so for me both platforms won't be as visually impressive as for other fellows

Actually they will.

 

[dr. apocalipsis]

He's saying in other words 32ROPs are overkill for a setup with ~164GB/s memory bandwidth.

I guess all of these GPUs are unbalanced;

GTX680: 32ROPs @ 192GB/s
GTX660Ti: 24ROPs @ 144GB/s
7870: 32ROPs @ 153GB/s

Are you saying that 32 ROPs aren't overkill on PS4 design, a console with a render target of 1080p?

16 ROPs may be a little tight for 1080P, but that doesn't negates the former.

And bringing here PC GPU's numbers is a completely nonsense. Most of those are cut back chips with cost save limitations.

 

[Sushen]

As I said in the other thread. Balance appears 25 times in this article.

I'm about halfway through reading at the moment.

It's like foxnews is fair and balanced.

 

[Captain Tuttle]

you don't have to be some kind of genius to know that RL is a MS shill, laws of physics implies that 1.84 TFLOPS>1.18 TFLOPS and no matter how much MS PR tries to hide this fact(with RL help) the gap will always be there and it will show sooner or later(ignoring the fact that the PS4 memory architecture is much better).

He's probably just as annoyed by obnoxious fanboys as many of us are, he's just in a position to piss them off.

 

[JaggedSac]

He's saying in other words 32ROPs are overkill for a setup with ~164GB/s memory bandwidth.

I guess all of these GPUs are unbalanced;

GTX680: 32ROPs @ 192GB/s
GTX660Ti: 24ROPs @ 144GB/s
7870: 32ROPs @ 153GB/s

PC cards have to handle resolutions higher than 1080p. I Doubt many, if any, PS4 games will go higher.

 

[USC-fan]

Sadly only real news is ace 16 que.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

Apparently it does, but data is slow from ESRAM to CPU and vice versa so it hardly does anything.

This is my understanding, as well. It's got coherent memory and the same virtual addressing for CPU and GPU data but is still not effectively hUMA because it has a split memory architecture which will nullify many of the hUMA benefits of not having to copy and rewrite between pools. The UMA means "Unified Memory Access", after all.

On top of this, they kind of shot themselves in the foot with having 6 less CUs because, relative to PS4, they don't have the extra ALU to do fine-grained asynchronous compute effectively. That's the real reason they only need 16 compute queues compared to PS4's 64 (note: I believe the PS4's GPU also has a beefed up compute scheduler for this very reason, as well). I'm going to assume that most of the compute they have available on the GPU is already dedicated to Kinect. So, where does that leave them in terms of GPGPU for physics, particle effects, advanced lighting, audio raycasting, advanced world simulation, etc.? It does not seem like their is enough CU resources available for compute without massively degrading the rendering capabilities of X1. I don't see how upping the clock speed of the CPU marginally (i.e., the equivalent of adding a single core to the CPU that's effectively ~9 GFLOPS) is the equivalent of having 660 extra GFLOPS of GPU resources available (i.e., 1,840 GFLOPs - 1,180 GFLOPS), even if they are not suitable for every task the CPU would handle. Not only that, but those GPU GFLOPS are good for rendering, as well.

It seems that, while MS may have made good use of the relatively paltry GPU and memory hardware they've utilized in their design, the PS4's architecture is more powerful, more flexible, and more accessible to developers in absolute terms and to somewhat of a significant degree in all aspects.

So, I'm still somewhat baffled by MS's hardware choices at the end of the day. I still think it comes down to the risk aversion they had to incorporating high-bandwidth GDDR5 RAM. I cannot interpret their choices for compromising the other hardware in the system in any other way. When your hardware is less powerful, less flexible, and less accessible to developers yet more expensive than the competition's, some gamble seems to not have paid off.

 

[gruenel]

What's funny about this whole 14+4 debate is that even if it was true that you cannot improve graphics beyond 14 CU's (which it obviously isn't), it would still give the PS4 a whopping ~400GFlop/s compute advantage along with the still ~20% faster GPU. This amount of processing power could be used to improve physics, AI, collision detection, advanced audio and stuff like that by a huge amount, which would arguably be even worse for X1 with its limited resources than slightly inferior graphics.

 

[killatopak]

Wait a second... Are ALL things wrong? Not just some wrong, and some right?
OH shi-

OMG. I laughed a lot today.

 

[Guymelef]

 

[artist]

PC cards have to handle resolutions higher than 1080p. I Doubt many, if any, PS4 games will go higher.

Ever heard of AA?

laugh.gif

 

[Respawn]

lol oh man

 

[NBtoaster]

Ever heard of AA?

PS4 games wont have PC enthusiast level AA either.

 

[JaggedSac]

PS4 games wont have PC enthusiast level AA either.

This too.

 

[OverHeat]

Ever heard of AA?

laugh.gif

Can't wait to play black flag or watch dog with txaa or msaa on my laptop that is more powerfull then a ps4......
Sony fan shit on xbox fan PC fan shit on both, it's a wheel we should stop spinning

 

[shinra-bansho]

From this article, I learned that the guy who approved Mark Cerny to lead the PS4 design was none other than Phil Harrison.

Yes, that Phil Harrison.

His final task at Sony before going into deep cover. Godspeed, Agent Phil.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

I don't understand why Leadbetter is so hellbent on fighting for something that is obviously inferior from a hardware perspective. As a supposedly unbiased journalist, why does he feel so strongly that he must defend/advocate one company's choices over another company's? He certainly is not giving the same amount of time to PS4's architectural choices. Is he really that much of a fanboy?

 

[FeiRR]

Ever heard of AA?

laugh.gif

VR too.

If Sony gave him some new info, I'm sure he'd publish it.

He'll want it now, I'm sure. He's not stupid.

 

[JaggedSac]

I don't understand why Leadbetter is so hellbent on fighting for something that is obviously inferior from a hardware perspective. As a supposedly unbiased journalist, why does he feel so strongly that he must defend/advocate one company's choices over another company's? He certainly is not giving the same amount of time to PS4's architectural choices. Is he really that much of a fanboy?

If Sony gave him some new info, I'm sure he'd publish it.

 

[artist]

PS4 games wont have PC enthusiast level AA either.

They wont, atleast they wont be jaggy mess either.

Can't wait to play black flag or watch dog with txaa or smaa on my laptop that is more powerfull then a ps4......
Sony fan shit on xbox fan PC fan shit on both, it's a wheel we should stop spinning

My desktop runs circles around your laptop, whoops.

 

[gruenel]

From this article, I learned that the guy who approved Mark Cerny to lead the PS4 design was none other than Phil Harrison.



Yes, that Phil Harrison.

That's... mindblowing.

This console launch is stuff for Hollywood, lol.

 

[SniperHunter]

I don't understand why Leadbetter is so hellbent on fighting for something that is obviously inferior from a hardware perspective. As a supposedly unbiased journalist, why does he feel so strongly that he must defend/advocate one company's choices over another company's? He certainly is not giving the same amount of time to PS4's architectural choices. Is he really that much of a fanboy?

He probably wants a job at MS.

 

[Respawn]

Which is a shame because it really isn't. It may not be as powerful as the PS4 but it's still a nice system which will have plenty of beautiful looking next gen games.

Very true. I very much want to jump into Forza come launch.

 

[Insane Metal]

Well, without going into any theoretical biases, it's easy to see why people would think so. If you copypaste the titles of Next Gen articles from Digital Foundry since August, you'll see this.

Xbox One:

Digital Foundry: the complete Xbox One architects interview - The whole story.
Microsoft to unlock more GPU power for Xbox One developers - Kinect and app reservations will be accessible to game-makers.
Digital Foundry vs. the Xbox One architects - "There's a lot of misinformation out there and a lot of people who don't get it. We're actually extremely proud of our design."
Xbox One exclusive Ryse runs at 900p - Full HD off the table for Crytek's showcase. Digital Foundry assesses the news
Xbox One CPU speed increased by 9.375 per cent - 1.6GHz processor bumped up to 1.75GHz in production hardware.
Beyond live TV - what the Xbox One user interface means for gamers - Digital Foundry on the next-gen dash, voice control... and Kinect.
Digital Foundry vs. Respawn: the Titanfall interview - Xbox One, the cloud, the Source Engine - and the 1080p60 question
Xbox One graphics speed increased by 6.62 per cent - GPU receives post-E3 53MHz speed boost.

PS4:

Digital Foundry vs. Resogun - Head-to-head with Housemarque, plus exclusive PlayStation 4 60fps gameplay video.
Mark Cerny: lead architect of... PlayStation Vita? - PS4 design chief also responsible for Sony's handheld.



It's probably safe to say DF is more interested in Xbox One, or Microsoft really wants to talk to them all the time. Or Sony PR could just be slacking off since they're in the publicity lead.

Goddamn.

 

[SHADES]

Shit, I knew developers were members on this forum, but I had no idea the majority of people who post in these threads are!

That's so cool!

It's called debating, it helps non tech types (such as myself) develop an understanding of what's FUD & what isn't.

There's a fair amount of knowledgable folks in this thread that although may not be dev's but can help explain the pro's & con's for both systems.

 

[artist]

Well, without going into any theoretical biases, it's easy to see why people would think so. If you copypaste the titles of Next Gen articles from Digital Foundry since August, you'll see this.

Xbox One:

Digital Foundry: the complete Xbox One architects interview - The whole story.
Microsoft to unlock more GPU power for Xbox One developers - Kinect and app reservations will be accessible to game-makers.
Digital Foundry vs. the Xbox One architects - "There's a lot of misinformation out there and a lot of people who don't get it. We're actually extremely proud of our design."
Xbox One exclusive Ryse runs at 900p - Full HD off the table for Crytek's showcase. Digital Foundry assesses the news
Xbox One CPU speed increased by 9.375 per cent - 1.6GHz processor bumped up to 1.75GHz in production hardware.
Beyond live TV - what the Xbox One user interface means for gamers - Digital Foundry on the next-gen dash, voice control... and Kinect.
Digital Foundry vs. Respawn: the Titanfall interview - Xbox One, the cloud, the Source Engine - and the 1080p60 question
Xbox One graphics speed increased by 6.62 per cent - GPU receives post-E3 53MHz speed boost.

PS4:

Digital Foundry vs. Resogun - Head-to-head with Housemarque, plus exclusive PlayStation 4 60fps gameplay video.
Mark Cerny: lead architect of... PlayStation Vita? - PS4 design chief also responsible for Sony's handheld.



It's probably safe to say DF is more interested in Xbox One, or Microsoft really wants to talk to them all the time. Or Sony PR could just be slacking off since they're in the publicity lead.

It was funny seeing Leadbetter trying to pre-emptively massage the reader about this;

So the question many of you are no doubt asking is, are we looking at a free-flowing technical discussion or a PR exercise? Well, let's not kid ourselves - every interview that reaches publication is some form of public relations for the interviewee and that applies equally whether we're talking to Microsoft, Sony or anybody else.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

PC cards have to handle resolutions higher than 1080p. I Doubt many, if any, PS4 games will go higher.

Are you saying that 32 ROPs aren't overkill on PS4 design, a console with a render target of 1080p?

16 ROPs may be a little tight for 1080P, but that doesn't negates the former.

And bringing here PC GPU's numbers is a completely nonsense. Most of those are cut back chips with cost save limitations.

See Horp's last post:

There are tons of things you can do with fillrate that doesn't directly affect memory streaming. He just uses the example when you push pixels to the final renderbuffer of a game. How about pixel shaders that do more than just push pixels?
You could have a small texture (less memory streaming), but want to tile it up 100 times, or do something with it to create a cool full screen post effect, then that would require tons of more fill rate but wont be affected by memory.

 

[skdoo]

I swear Leadbetter has a hard-on for MS... it's almost embarrassing to read the spin. Sounds like a sports team that sucks, knows they suck, but have to spin "not sucking"

 

[SLY_]

Technical fellows around the world are embarrassed.

Not sure anyone had a better understanding of their system than the techs who designed it.

 

[frizby]

His final task at Sony before going into deep cover. Godspeed, Agent Phil.

 

[shinra-bansho]

I don't understand why Leadbetter is so hellbent on fighting for something that is obviously inferior from a hardware perspective. As a supposedly unbiased journalist, why does he feel so strongly that he must defend/advocate one company's choices over another company's? He certainly is not giving the same amount of time to PS4's architectural choices. Is he really that much of a fanboy?

They cast his dreams into oblivion.

 

[skdoo]

And yes, this simply confirms that third party games are going to suck as well. Parity is going to castrate them all to XB1 level instead of taking advantage of the PS4. Guess I'm going first party only again, because I'm not buying crap like BF4 that doesn't run well because of an inferior system.

Makes me wonder why Destiny hasn't been announced for the PC... perhaps because it would be drastically better?

 

[frizby]

They cast his dreams into oblivion.

 

[StuBurns]

Sony really has no reason to do this kind of thing. They're in the perfect position, everyone is convinced their box is better, and they don't need to explain why. MS PR is braindead. They shouldn't have ever talked about specs, and they certainly shouldn't still be doing it.

 

[Dr. Kitty Muffins]

Their response will be in a few months when all the games look better on their system. They dont need to say shit.

There won't be much difference between the launch games, as everyone knows. That by itself will lend false credence to those willing to believe this silly PR spin on tech. When it won't begin to matter is about a year or so after launch, not immediately after.

 

[vpance]

They are so biased they can't even see their own bias.