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[hey_monkey]

Wow. I mostly get ModCloth and hotel ads.

 

[Jedeye Sniv]

And secondly, what kind of guy looks at that and thinks "Male gamers only? Now this I gotta play!"

12 year old 'men' I'm betting.

 

[Jedeye Sniv]

re: Sherlock and Batman - there is actually an issue of Batman where he teams up with Holmes (old skool version), I think it's an anniversary issue, like 400 or something. That that might be up some of your alleys.

 

[Lionheart1337]

There are a lot of women gamers. At least 40% of all gamers are women.

I am inclined to agree with some other responses I've seen that these studies are incredibly vague, they don't seem to go into much detail. I am sure it has been said in some capacity already. Just reeks of juking the stats to paint a certain narrative. I could swear one of the “most gamers are old men” studies was revealed to be using Gamestop purchases to get their numbers.

So why don't those numbers reflect here? Why are women so uncomfortable to join in the conversation?

I think there are plenty of answers that apply to some degree, but you do seem to be operating from the presumption that the demographics of NeoGAF MUST coincide with the findings of that study. This eventually seems to come down to the even further presumption that these hordes of women who are apparently game freaks are hiding or avoiding places like NeoGAF because of sexism. An answer I can’t say truly convinces me regarding most gender/activity differences. A simpler (and not necessarily correct ) assumption would be that they simply don’t care for a what place like NeoGAF has to offer upfront. Another would be that they (as many many men) aren't so keen on gaming that they'd sign up for a board as exclusive as NeoGAF, or any board at all. There is also the fact that women and men socialize differently and also seem to express enthusiasm levels (varying as they may be) differently. Of course this post will probably be misconstrued/interpreted. I've already seen a lot of that here.

 

[Platy]

I think there are plenty of answers that apply to some degree, but you do seem to be operating from the presumption that the demographics of NeoGAF MUST coincide with the findings of that study. This eventually seems to come down to the even further presumption that these hordes of women who are apparently game freaks are hiding or avoiding places like NeoGAF because of sexism. An answer I can’t say truly convinces me regarding most gender/activity differences. A simpler (and not necessarily correct ) assumption would be that they simply don’t care for a what place like NeoGAF has to offer upfront. Another would be that they (as many many men) aren't so keen on gaming that they'd sign up for a board as exclusive as NeoGAF, or any board at all. There is also the fact that women and men socialize differently and also seem to express enthusiasm levels (varying as they may be) differently. Of course this post will probably be misconstrued/interpreted. I've already seen a lot of that here.

There is also the fact that any girl who played online and people knew she was a girl KNOWS that she must avoid any "hardcore" gaming place so that she don't loose her sanity

 

[hey_monkey]

I think there are plenty of answers that apply to some degree, but you do seem to be operating from the presumption that the demographics of NeoGAF MUST coincide with the findings of that study. This eventually seems to come down to the even further presumption that these hordes of women who are apparently game freaks are hiding or avoiding places like NeoGAF because of sexism. An answer I can’t say truly convinces me regarding most gender/activity differences. A simpler (and not necessarily correct ) assumption would be that they simply don’t care for a what place like NeoGAF has to offer upfront. Another would be that they (as many many men) aren't so keen on gaming that they'd sign up for a board as exclusive as NeoGAF, or any board at all. There is also the fact that women and men socialize differently and also seem to express enthusiasm levels (varying as they may be) differently. Of course this post will probably be misconstrued/interpreted. I've already seen a lot of that here.

Oh boy, that last line. That really sets the tone, doesn't it?

I don't think anyone is assuming that 40% of gamers = women = people who would want to post on a gaming forum. Those are just the statistics we have, so that number gets tossed around (though I think it's actually higher and we collectively settled on a smaller number for whatever reason? per that study, I mean, more like 45%). Through discussion, we actually knocked that number down when trying to decide on a number of gaming enthusiasts (see: loosely "hardcore") who are women, and came to the conclusion that even that number doesn't correlate at all to the perceived ratio of men to women posting on GAF, and much discussion centered on that.

 

[Miss Riot]

I'm a wrasslin fan and it permeates that as well. there's a lot of female presence in their forums, but in public around my group of friends, yeah I'm alone. so, what do we discuss differently? I don't think we do anything different from what I've seen in wrestling forums. it's all pretty samey. why are video game forums so different?

 

[The Artful Dodger]

the perceived ratio of men to women posting on GAF, and much discussion centered on that.

Lol, this last part made me think of 300 where the women of GAF are the Spartans and the Persians are all the men who say these weird things and then wonder why women aren't comfortable.

"Our obtuseness will blot out the sun!"

Spoiler

I enjoyed the Sherlock and Batman Discussions more...Let's go back to that!

 

[TheFightingFish]

Having paged though much of the last few pages of this thread one thing that did surprise me a little bit was the ragging on gaming side. As a guy I might just not be aware enough of this stuff, but in general like 95% of the time when I see a thread that make me think "geeze guys that seems pretty offensive to women" it's almost always in the OT. Gaming side has it's issues no doubt (creeping on Jade Raymond, Tropes videos, ect...) but especially in the last few years with some of the newer crops of mods which are active on gaming side the discussion quality has really been rising over there. While on the OT you have stuff like the thigh gap, sex partners, "nice guy" dating, X sure is looking good like multiple times a day. Is gaming side really that unfriendly to women? Obviously as I said I'm not in the best position to judge this, but that reaction which I saw a fair bit in this thread did kinda surprise me as someone who frequents both sides.

 

[Lionheart1337]

There is also the fact that any girl who played online and people knew she was a girl KNOWS that she must avoid any "hardcore" gaming place so that she don't loose her sanity

Yes XBL and the like is troll city. Tell me something I don’t know. I’ve been trolled on my race plenty. There were plenty of anonymous people who knew what I looked like back in the day when I played competitive and would make flaming/racist comments towards me regarding all of this. I have been called everything under the sun. Had 0 impact on my participation/enthusiasm level. But hey that’s just me I suppose.

@monkey
In response to a tone that’s already there yes. I would hope people aren’t making that assumption and yes I did read a lot of the discussion. The discussion happens in the first place because people see this study and wonder why GAF doesn’t reflect it. I disagree with many of the reasons implicated, hence the post

 

[Keri]

While on the OT you have stuff like the thigh gap, sex partners, "nice guy" dating, X sure is looking good like multiple times a day. Is gaming side really that unfriendly to women? Obviously as I said I'm not in the best position to judge this, but that reaction which I saw a fair bit in this thread did kinda surprise me as someone who frequents both sides.

As someone who mostly sticks to OT, I can say that it's not really about the thread topics (at least not for me). Even if sexist topics appear more often in OT, I feel completely comfortable participating in those discussions and arguing against sexist notions, because in this realm, we are all on even footing.

In the gaming forum, there's an unspoken hierarchy, in which I am most definitely at the bottom, either because I'd be considered a "casual gamer" or, worse, a fake girl-gamer trying to get attention. It's not necessarily NeoGaf's fault, it's just something that many of us have learned and apply in this context.

 

[Platy]

Yes XBL and the like is troll city. Tell me something I don’t know. I’ve been trolled on my race plenty. There were plenty of anonymous people who knew what I looked like back in the day when I played competitive and would make flaming/racist comments towards me regarding all of this. I have been called everything under the sun. Had 0 impact on my participation/enthusiasm level. But hey that’s just me I suppose.

Findings indicate that, on average, the female voice received three times as many negative comments as the male voice or no voice.[...]But what’s noteworthy is there was no correlation between negative feedback and skill level.

 

[Lionheart1337]

Findings indicate that, on average, the female voice received three times as many negative comments as the male voice or no voice.[...]But what’s noteworthy is there was no correlation between negative feedback and skill level.

I've seen this already actually . Trust me, I know. The amount of time I spent on Xbox Live would sicken most.

 

[User 100115]

I am inclined to agree with some other responses I've seen that these studies are incredibly vague, they don't seem to go into much detail. I am sure it has been said in some capacity already. Just reeks of juking the stats to paint a certain narrative. I could swear one of the “most gamers are old men” studies was revealed to be using Gamestop purchases to get their numbers.

I think there are plenty of answers that apply to some degree, but you do seem to be operating from the presumption that the demographics of NeoGAF MUST coincide with the findings of that study. This eventually seems to come down to the even further presumption that these hordes of women who are apparently game freaks are hiding or avoiding places like NeoGAF because of sexism. An answer I can’t say truly convinces me regarding most gender/activity differences. A simpler (and not necessarily correct ) assumption would be that they simply don’t care for a what place like NeoGAF has to offer upfront. Another would be that they (as many many men) aren't so keen on gaming that they'd sign up for a board as exclusive as NeoGAF, or any board at all. There is also the fact that women and men socialize differently and also seem to express enthusiasm levels (varying as they may be) differently. Of course this post will probably be misconstrued/interpreted. I've already seen a lot of that here.

First off, I am wondering how the hell you quoted a post that apparently got eaten in the server instability last night. What magic is this?!

Secondly, I do my best to not misconstrue anything, but considering the types of discussion we've have over the course of this thread, it's sometimes very hard not to. So many people have come in here talking about how vague the numbers are, how most of that 40% (or 45% or 48%) are facebook mobile gamers or netflix only subscribers or...It's almost as if people are trying to do everything in their power to make up reasons why women wouldn't be gaming. It's an odd, defensive reaction in my eyes, because why? Why do people feel the need to do that? Shouldn't they be happy that more women are interested in gaming, therefore more might might share their interests?

Also, I wasn't claiming that hordes of women want to post on Neogaf. But I would expect there to be more here. Women are a vast minority here, and it honestly begs the question as to why. Monkey and Keri addressed it better than I can; because in general, women gamers are taught online that they WILL have a hard time when they post in a general gaming community. It's not just Neogaf, it's everywhere.

 

[jimi_dini]

Because men will follow their video cartridges anywhere...

Hahaha

That's funny. Because it's insulting men. Hilarious.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

First off, I am wondering how the hell you quoted a post that apparently got eaten in the server instability last night. What magic is this?!

Secondly, I do my best to not misconstrue anything, but considering the types of discussion we've have over the course of this thread, it's sometimes very hard not to. So many people have come in here talking about how vague the numbers are, how most of that 40% (or 45% or 48%) are facebook mobile gamers or netflix only subscribers or...It's almost as if people are trying to do everything in their power to make up reasons why women wouldn't be gaming. It's an odd, defensive reaction in my eyes, because why? Why do people feel the need to do that? Shouldn't they be happy that more women are interested in gaming, therefore more might might share their interests?

Also, I wasn't claiming that hordes of women want to post on Neogaf. But I would expect there to be more here. Women are a vast minority here, and it honestly begs the question as to why. Monkey and Keri addressed it better than I can; because in general, women gamers are taught online that they WILL have a hard time when they post in a general gaming community. It's not just Neogaf, it's everywhere.

I cant speak for anyone else, but I was doing it because this thread is about why NeoGAF is predominantly male and that seems like a very reasonable explanation of why it might be.

There isn't that much discussion on mobile and facebook games here, so people who only play those types of games would have little to no reason to sign up for NeoGAF, and if a large amount of that 40% are women who aren't into console/PC gaming then it's probably a factor of why there are less women here.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Hahaha

That's funny. Because it's insulting men. Hilarious.

Why would a baby be upset about a joke about men?

 

[User 100115]

I cant speak for anyone else, but I was doing it because this thread is why NeoGAF is predominantly male and that seems like a very reasonable explanation of why it might be.

There isn't that much discussion on mobile and facebook games here, so people who only play those types of games would have little to no reason to sign up for NeoGAF.

The point of that is that they are claiming the numbers are vague, and then turn around and say most of those HAVE to be facebook games. Because women can't be 'real' gamers.

I wasn't saying that the people that only enjoy those types of games would be interested in posting on Gaf.

In essence, you are dismissing the numbers and saying that women only enjoy facebook time wasters, so of course there wouldn't be women on Gaf.

Again, why is that a person's first reaction? To dismiss the fact that women play 'real games' too? Because I would think men would be happy to have more women interested in gaming. Instead, it's like the girls are encroaching on territory that needs to be defended.

 

[Platy]

There isn't that much discussion on mobile and facebook games here, so people who only play those types of games would have little to no reason to sign up for NeoGAF, and if a large amount of that 40% are women who aren't into console/PC gaming then it's probably a factor of why there are less women here.

There have been LOTS of threads about mobile games here on gaf lately ... Duckroll did a good amount of them =P

 

[Zen_Arcade]

The point of that is that they are claiming the numbers are vague, and then turn around and say most of those HAVE to be facebook games. Because women can't be 'real' gamers.

I wasn't saying that the people that only enjoy those types of games would be interested in posting on Gaf.

In essence, you are dismissing the numbers and saying that women only enjoy facebook time wasters, so of course there wouldn't be women on Gaf.

I'm not dismissing anything, and I'm not saying that they have to be Facebook games (Though I'm sure there people that are). I'm merely pointing out that it's a possibility. The numbers are actually pretty vague when you're applying them to something specific like the userbase of an internet forum.

I'm sure there are also men in that 60% who are exactly the same. But it seems to reason that if there are such a low amount of women here that a contributing factor is that they're not playing the types of games typically discussed here.

 

[CrudeDiatribe]

There isn't that much discussion on mobile and facebook games here, so people who only play those types of games would have little to no reason to sign up for NeoGAF, and if a large amount of that 40% are women who aren't into console/PC gaming then it's probably a factor of why there are less women here.

Even if three-quarters of the XBox-using women (which is just under 40% of XBox users) are simply fucking around with Netflix or Mario Kart-equivalent games, that's still ~10% of the XBox-using population that are women shooting on-screen characters in the face (or equivalent). That 10% is still under represented on GAF.

Now, maybe there's a lag? It would be interesting to see how the demographics of XBox Live have changed since its introduction. Maybe there are more women today playing Real Games™ than there were two/five/ten years ago; GAF does have an infamously long waiting time.

 

[Karkador]

But it's not like NeoGAF thread topics materialize out of thin air. People have to start threads and post replies. To hold something like "the types of games typically discussed here" as a constant is not taking into account that people start threads and decide what they want to talk about. What we talk about here can change at any moment, as long as people aren't actively trying to get threads shut down (and that does happen).

But I digress, because I don't believe that women are locked into wanting to talk about some "other" types of games that aren't discussed here. I don't think the excluding factor is
what they are playing.

 

[Miss Riot]

little things like this bug me, but not enough to actually upset me. just an annoyance.

It's called female wrestling fans. They are the same ones that write romantic fan fictions about Randy Orton and Cody Rhodes, and then send them to Orton so he could read them.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Even if three-quarters of the XBox-using women (which is just under 40% of XBox users) are simply fucking around with Netflix or Mario Kart-equivalent games, that's still ~10% of the XBox-using population that are women shooting on-screen characters in the face (or equivalent). That 10% is still under represented on GAF.

Now, maybe there's a lag? It would be interesting to see how the demographics of XBox Live have changed since its introduction. Maybe there are more women today playing Real Games™ than there were two/five/ten years ago; GAF does have an infamously long waiting time.

I also think if people only play a couple games a year on console/PC they would still have no interest coming to a video game forum. There are "casual gamers" that only casually play "real games". People who buy a 360 just to pick up one or two games a year probably wouldn't care about coming here because, well, what are they going to talk about for the rest of the year when they're here?

I know a lot of people here hear that situation and think "Well obviously they'll stick around because they could figure out what new games to get into.", but honestly I think that a very large portion of people who play video games don't even have that desire. They want to play a game of Madden while they're killing time to do something else. They want to try and level up a few Pokemon on their train ride to work.

You have to have a certain mindset and dedication to a hobby to want to spend your free time talking about that hobby in between bouts of doing it. I'm sure almost everyone here has a hobby that they like, but wouldn't care about signing up to a forum for. Now, I'm not saying that women can't have that dedication, or level of interest. But that's why people saying these statistics are vague to be applied to the situation.

If a girl spends all of her time playing Halo she's still part of that 46%, and when asked she would still say she plays video games. As she should, because she does. But that person probably wouldn't have much of an interest here because it's not like she'd have something to talk about on a regular basis.

 

[Zoe]

But it's not like NeoGAF thread topics materialize out of thin air. People have to start threads and post replies. To hold something like "the types of games typically discussed here" as a constant is not taking into account that people start threads and decide what they want to talk about. What we talk about here can change at any moment, as long as people aren't actively trying to get threads shut down (and that does happen).

Well for one it takes forever just to become a junior member. Then you have to invest the time in waiting and posting in other topics before you can make your own, so where's the incentive if you're not interested in what's already being actively discussed?

 

[Karkador]

Well for one it takes forever just to become a junior member. Then you have to invest the time in waiting and posting in other topics before you can make your own, so where's the incentive if you're not interested in what's already being actively discussed?

Well, it's not like you have to labor at the process for as long as it takes to get approved. I signed up for GAF and forgot about it after a while; finally got approved about a year after signing up. Furthermore, maybe some people might feel that becoming a member and adding to the forum means to bring something new to it?

To be honest, those policies don't line up very well with the idea many seem to have that this forum is inclusionary. I would say that maybe some sign-up and forum policies should be up for discussion in the spirit of making it a better forum, but alas...

 

[SHIT]

According to a reoccurring Forbes article (which should no doubt be making it's way to GAF sometime in the future)

Men are retreating to the internet and the rise of women.

 

[hey_monkey]

Even if three-quarters of the XBox-using women (which is just under 40% of XBox users) are simply fucking around with Netflix or Mario Kart-equivalent games, that's still ~10% of the XBox-using population that are women shooting on-screen characters in the face (or equivalent). That 10% is still under represented on GAF.

Now, maybe there's a lag? It would be interesting to see how the demographics of XBox Live have changed since its introduction. Maybe there are more women today playing Real Games™ than there were two/five/ten years ago; GAF does have an infamously long waiting time.

paragraph one: yes, this, again. I feel like I just want to collect all the posts on this there have been so far and have it ready at need, until this thread is no more.

paragraph two: that would be interesting, but I worry there's not any good way to collect solid data on such things.

(and even if we did, there'd be one guy who wanted to know how many of those girls were introduced to Real Games™ by a boyfriend)

 

[Lionheart1337]

First off, I am wondering how the hell you quoted a post that apparently got eaten in the server instability last night. What magic is this?!

Secondly, I do my best to not misconstrue anything, but considering the types of discussion we've have over the course of this thread, it's sometimes very hard not to. So many people have come in here talking about how vague the numbers are, how most of that 40% (or 45% or 48%) are facebook mobile gamers or netflix only subscribers or...It's almost as if people are trying to do everything in their power to make up reasons why women wouldn't be gaming. It's an odd, defensive reaction in my eyes, because why? Why do people feel the need to do that? Shouldn't they be happy that more women are interested in gaming, therefore more might might share their interests?

I assure you I`m don’t want to do anything like that. I`m not trying to exclude anyone or "protect" gaming or any nonsense like that. I wouldn't consider myself a true gamer if I did not think that there was room for everyone to enjoy it. Within this, I also try to factor in the level of variance. As a heterosexual male you bet I would love it if more women shared the same interests as me, in the same ways and so on. I`m only really concerned with the reality of the matter (the GAF gap), and the numerous possible reasons as to why it is, the specifics, weighing the exception and the rule to put it simply. I’ve said my peace.

Also, I wasn't claiming that hordes of women want to post on Neogaf. But I would expect there to be more here. Women are a vast minority here, and it honestly begs the question as to why. Monkey and Keri addressed it better than I can; because in general, women gamers are taught online that they WILL have a hard time when they post in a general gaming community. It's not just Neogaf, it's everywhere.

And that is a reason I think is worth looking into just as much as the others that have been pondered.

Well, it's not like you have to labor at the process for as long as it takes to get approved. I signed up for GAF and forgot about it after a while; finally got approved about a year after signing up. Furthermore, maybe some people might feel that becoming a member and adding to the forum means to bring something new to it?

To be honest, those policies don't line up very well with the idea many seem to have that this forum is inclusionary. I would say that maybe some sign-up and forum policies should be up for discussion in the spirit of making it a better forum, but alas...

A lot of gamers seem to treat this place as some elitist circlejerk because of the atypical sign up process, I guess among other things. I'd say in general there are plenty of things about GAF that might make folks or all kinds feel unwelcome.

 

[hey_monkey]

And that is a reason I think is worth looking into just as much as the others that have been pondered.

I'm sorry, I can't tell because this is a pretty straightforward statement, tonally -- are you implying that hasn't been considered? It's definitely come up, but we have been largely restricting to NeoGAF in general. In fact, the consensus seemed to be that GAF is more welcoming in many ways than some other online environments, and yet we still see lower numbers than one might expect in a purely numerical consideration.

There's no easy answer, or even an easy set of answers, because "women" and "men" are really just labels of convenience that ignore hundreds of shades of variation, of course, and I think two that younger gamers and older gamers have different experiences. There are more factors than we could easily and thoroughly discuss if this was one hundred pages, but I'm all for delving.

(I confess I am a little weary of the same ground being tread with so many posts, but that's another kettle.)

 

[Lionheart1337]

I'm sorry, I can't tell because this is a pretty straightforward statement, tonally -- are you implying that hasn't been considered? It's definitely come up, but we have been largely restricting to NeoGAF in general. In fact, the consensus seemed to be that GAF is more welcoming in many ways than some other online environments, and yet we still see lower numbers than one might expect in a purely numerical consideration.

There's no easy answer, or even an easy set of answers, because "women" and "men" are really just labels of convenience that ignore hundreds of shades of variation, of course, and I think two that younger gamers and older gamers have different experiences. There are more factors than we could easily and thoroughly discuss if this was one hundred pages, but I'm all for delving.

(I confess I am a little weary of the same ground being tread with so many posts, but that's another kettle.)

To answer the first question no. I`m sure it has at some point or another. I have not read 100% of the thread but I have read a fair amount. Redundancy, while tiring is pretty normal in these conversations . The disagreement comes when discussing why we have these expectations of distribution and why the difference is there. Pretty much agreed on the latter points as far as that goes. Another problem is a lot of studies don't seem to delve into those shades you mentioned. I can't find the one thing I saw posted before that went into a lot of little details like play time, platform, things that I would consider very relevant to answering the question.

 

[hey_monkey]

Oh, I know, especially when a thread gets over ten pages then yeah, there's gonna be repetition. The easy answer is for me to take a break, but ohgeez I might miss something!

All the studies I've seen on gamer demographics are pretty faulty, alas. Outside of considering whether or not games make us want to cooperate more, kill more, or learn more, games research seems to be considered not too important, or hasn't been until recently, rather.

 

[CrudeDiatribe]

I also think if people only play a couple games a year on console/PC they would still have no interest coming to a video game forum. There are "casual gamers" that only casually play "real games". People who buy a 360 just to pick up one or two games a year probably wouldn't care about coming here because, well, what are they going to talk about for the rest of the year when they're here?

Sounds like me. I signed up because I followed a link here about the Halo Reach leaked screenshots and I discovered Bungie employees posted here. I'm such a fanboy I signed up immediately. I play relatively few games but play them a lot, and I only follow threads related to those games. I stayed for OT and the communities I've become part of (not Halo, as it happens).

 

[Pau]

Oh, I know, especially when a thread gets over ten pages then yeah, there's gonna be repetition. The easy answer is for me to take a break, but ohgeez I might miss something!

All the studies I've seen on gamer demographics are pretty faulty, alas. Outside of considering whether or not games make us want to cooperate more, kill more, or learn more, games research seems to be considered not too important, or hasn't been until recently, rather.

Could you describe what problems research on gamer demographics runs into? From a marketing stand point, it sounds like a no brainer to figure out who is playing what games.

 

[meijiko]

I've been wondering if it would be possible to do a GAF survey that might shed light onto some of these darker areas. Like what percentage of posters identify as female, how frequently posters play/buy video games, the general preferred genres, how many people post more in OT vs. Gaming side, etc. It would be a bit of work, but I would be really interested to see the results.

 

[Pau]

I've been wondering if it would be possible to do a GAF survey that might shed light onto some of these darker areas. Like what percentage of posters identify as female, how frequently posters play/buy video games, the general preferred genres, how many people post more in OT vs. Gaming side, etc. It would be a bit of work, but I would be really interested to see the results.

Someone once did an age survey and that was pretty neat.

 

[hey_monkey]

Well, like that ESA study where everyone gets the 40-ish percent number on women? Not a word on race. And that would be lovely if we were post-racial, but games can be just as inclusive or not on race issues. I will never forget the tragic hilarity of Carnival Games, which had a character maker, so you could make your happy little avatar... so long as said avatar was white.

But it's not like the game couldn't handle darker characters, because the barker was black.

Shameful.

eta: I think the assumption really is that it's a straight white male industry -- by straight white males, for straight white males, and everything else is on the fringes. And while numbers might bear out in most cases, I think real data might tell a lot of different stories, and the industry is changing, too, at all levels.

 

[hey_monkey]

I have GD serial edit syndrome. I always think of some shit right after I hit submit reply. I need to learn to wait.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Sounds like me. I signed up because I followed a link here about the Halo Reach leaked screenshots and I discovered Bungie employees posted here. I'm such a fanboy I signed up immediately. I play relatively few games but play them a lot, and I only follow threads related to those games. I stayed for OT and the communities I've become part of (not Halo, as it happens).

Thats great, I'm glad you're here and found reasons to stay. But you're probably in the minority of people in that situation.

Plus we have no idea how many people are like you and post so infrequently that we don't even realize you're here. Hell, right now I don't even know if you're male or female. There could be a ton of girls that make a couple posts a day, never mention that they're female and go completely under the radar.

Unless there was some kind of tally that the mods conducted and I missed, which is entirely possible. I myself am pretty much only here during work hours.

 

[Toa TAK]

Someone once did an age survey and that was pretty neat.

Link? I'd be pretty interested in seeing it.

 

[Pau]

Link? I'd be pretty interested in seeing it.

Here you are. The image in the OP doesn't work, but if you go to the last page there are still some floating around. Obviously it wasn't a robust survey or anything, but I like graphs.

 

[Zoe]

Could you describe what problems research on gamer demographics runs into? From a marketing stand point, it sounds like a no brainer to figure out who is playing what games.

Sales only captures who initiates the POS transaction (no gifting) at participating retailers. User accounts only capture who created the account (no sharing or transferring), assuming the user was truthful in the first place.

 

[Toa TAK]

Here you are. The image in the OP doesn't work, but if you go to the last page there are still some floating around. Obviously it wasn't a robust survey or anything, but I like graphs.

So most of us are in our 20s huh?

I'm almost there:

19

 

[someday]

Sounds like me. I signed up because I followed a link here about the Halo Reach leaked screenshots and I discovered Bungie employees posted here. I'm such a fanboy I signed up immediately. I play relatively few games but play them a lot, and I only follow threads related to those games. I stayed for OT and the communities I've become part of (not Halo, as it happens).

My situation is really similar but it was Resistance and Insomniac. I spent a year or more fully on their myresistance.net site and actually enjoyed it. The moderation was fair, there were actually quite a few females (women and girls) and occasionally Insom would post and set up play dates. I got into COD 4 and played less of R:FOM but was waiting for R2. I actually was in the original Girl With a Stick beta, but I hated the new direction. I bought the game but it really put me off. Also, the forums changed, there was so much unhappiness with the new game that people were getting banned a lot for complaining, Insom stopped posting, and it just wasn't the community I had liked before.

I was actually pretty lost before finding NeoGaf. I spent some time on the xboxlive forums and that was interesting. There was actually a subforum called "Gamerchix" that was women only and it was amazing how many women there were. A lot of them only posted there and they often set up game nights. And yes, they played COD, Halo, Rainbow, etc. Women like shooters! It seemed like the biggest issues were they needed a comfortable setting to practice and get good enough to play online with the masses (especially on xbox live). Once that happened they kicked ass just like everyone else. Or sucked, just like everyone else.

Anyway, I found Gaf because of an interview with either Ted Price or Stevenson where they said they read Gaf and knew how much gaffers hated R2. They used that information to make R3 better. I realized I had spent almost 2 years on their own site and they were on Gaf! So, I applied, waited over a year and have never left.

Eh, I realize no one asked for this bio. I just feel the need to stress how much I actually like this forum and why. Yes, there are threads and posts that bother me but they really aren't enough to stop me from being here.

 

[hey_monkey]

I'm glad you posted all that. Interesting to see origin stories and to hear experiences.

 

[Ephidel]

Just to preface this a bit, I originally intended to post this last night, but then when I hit submit the forum wasn't there anymore. As a result, it responds to things that are a few pages old now.

I think every now and then some of the people posting every page let off some steam and start talking about jars. Thread's long though, maybe there isn't much left to say besides tell every person who wanders in going "Video games, duh." to maybe read the thread.

If you'd like to bring something up that you've felt has been missed, don't let the off topic banter discourage you.

I've spent 30 pages trying to decide whether I want to post in this thread. I'm about to post some giant unreadable block of text and I still don't really know if I want to
Oddly enough, the offtopic bits feel far more encouraging

There are a lot of women gamers. At least 40% of all gamers are women. So why don't those numbers reflect here?

(Not directing the following mini-rant at you, just using your comment as a springboard to start it)

Having the entire topic dismissed by hit and run comments of "Videogames" is irritating, but illuminates many of the reasons behind this. The idea that women aren't interested in gaming, or if they are then they aren't serious about it. The idea that women only play casual games, and any girl who doesn't is some sort of anomaly. The idea that obviously she only likes something because some guy introduced her to it, as if that matters. The idea that they couldn't possibly like them enough to want to talk about them. None of that stuff is overly welcoming.

I can't understand why some people can't see that this attitude itself might make the gaming community less approachable, and that it might be why more people (men and women) don't end up becoming a part of it. Then it spreads, because that attitude isn't solely confined to Gaf, it's expressed by people in real life too which sort of auto-excludes anyone who can't be bothered to press past it (or makes them decide to keep their likes and dislikes to themselves), and if something makes me uncomfortable then it's going to be a bit of a tough sell to interest anyone else in it.

I mean, I like gaming, I follow gaming news, and I find a lot of it here... but I rarely post.
I actually don't recall how I originally found gaf all those years ago, I just know that I was following it long before I ever signed up (I used to have AOL as an internet provider, so I never had an eligible email). Once I finally had signed up and waited for approval, I was kind of looking forward to being an active poster and contributing...
Yet somehow, once my account was approved, I was suddenly stricken by a case of 'Ack, I don't want to say anything ever'.

But that leads to other discussion, such as why women here are sometimes less active

Why are women so uncomfortable to join in the conversation?

And this is the bit I wanted to get to.

I trash well over 90% of the posts I write without ever hitting submit. I've written a variant of this post six times so far. I'm never quite sure if I actually want to put myself forward, for varying reasons, and most of the time I err on the side of caution and choose not to.

Some threads on this forum can have a very ... off-putting tone. Not always, but definitely sometimes, and this thread has only emphasised that for me (as if it needed emphasising).
Unfortunately, people don't always dismiss things because they're being hostile, and it would probably be easier if they did, because attempts can be made to combat that. The problem is that I honestly believe most of them don't realise what they're doing, or don't see any problem with it, or were only joking, or think that it's harmless. And I don't know what you can do against that.
Some people seem to think it's fine because the actual female posters on this forum are not being targeted with their sexism, innuendo, or vitriol (although I've seen that happen too), yet fail to notice that directing it at someone or something else makes the topics just as unpleasant. It makes them a hostile place to be, or a dismissive one, and in some cases I think that might actually be worse.
Also, some of the sex, healthcare, and abortion topics just end up making my skin crawl.

But while all of those things are ... awkward ... they certainly aren't the only reason I over-moderate my posting habits. I do this because I am petrified that any action I take will reflect on countless people that I don't even know and I don't want to do that.

Obviously I can only speak for myself here, but that's honestly a big reason for me, so I was wondering whether anyone else had experienced similar.
You see, while I may have no problems admitting I am wrong, and I don't care overly if I look stupid for expressing something badly or having a dumb opinion, I do care that my expression of a dumb opinion may make it harder for other people to express themselves in future without being dismissed out of hand.

Basically I live my life in constant fear of this happening, or worse of being the cause of this happening:

I know this comic has already been posted but this is how I feel about life.
Because this shit happens. It happened when I was at school, at college, and at uni. It happens at work. It happens when I go shopping, or when I meet people, or when I go online, or when I game. It happens all the damn time, and sometimes even completely normal people see nothing wrong with that.
Sure, sometimes it's a joke (a bad one), but some people actually believe this, and while I know that's their problem, it feels like it's mine. If I stuff up in any way, I am somehow inviting some plonker to form negative opinions about women or legitimising some negative impression they already had, and it feels like I am responsible for making all women look that little bit worse as a result.

That time when I accidentally dropped something? Women are too clumsy.
That time someone intentionally knocked me over? Women don't pay enough attention. Women just get in the way.
That time I couldn't complete five tasks at once? Looks like women aren't so great at multi-tasking after all, hm?
That one time when I cried at work because one of my former bosses was a complete asshole and took his problems out on me? Women get too emotional. Stop crying and get back to work like the rest of us.
I don't even have to do something wrong. Trying to solve problems at work (even stupid ones like asking someone not to be so abrupt with customers, or asking that staff actually pay attention to the dates on stock) can still result in a string of "women are always so whiny" "women are never happy with anything" "god, women can be bitches" comments.
And what if it isn't just jerks that think that? What if some little mistake I make lodges in the back of some completely normal person's mind and colours their opinions later too, not just about me but about others as well?

As this is a gaming forum, I have gaming anecdotes too!
Not necessarily venomous ones, but still irritations that sit there at the back of my mind.

I used to meet up with a group of friends regularly, and they had another group of friends who I got along with, but didn't know as well. They got the Wii out, and were playing Mario Kart, and I did not want to participate; I had never used a Wii, racing games are not my forte, and I knew I would be terrible. Even when they were trying to get me to play they were all 'you're a girl, we don't expect you to be any good at this, it's all in good fun'. They didn't mean any offense by it, but I still kind of think they meant it, and even if they didn't mean it they still said it. I hate stuff like that... but, when it came to me, they were right. I had no idea what I was doing and I was exceptionally terrible. And because I was terrible, I played a part in making them think their dumb and jerkish comments were correct.
Now, I wasn't the only person there that was bad, but I was the only one who somehow made their entire gender look worse because of it.

As a result of that, even though I love games like Gods Eater, I have never once played them online. Because who knows, maybe I'm actually terrible, and if I do the same online then somehow they'll know, and my actions will play some small part in excluding the next girl who comes along, and I don't want to be responsible for that.
Similarly, while I wasn't at all shy about participating in raids, discussions, and all sorts in World of Warcraft, after some of the shit I received during the raids in which I spoke I very rarely spoke aloud again. I never wanted to make a big deal by complaining about any of it, but maybe I should have done... instead, my microphone developed a streak of exceptionally bad luck and managed to spend years being lost, faulty, or 'accidentally' forgotten. Some of the people I met later would even make snide remarks that maybe I was really a bloke trying to get preferential treatment by pretending to be a girl, because if not, why wouldn't I speak? ... I stuck with that over the shit I got before though. It was far easier to ignore.
(To my knowledge I never did get preferential treatment just for being a girl. I mean, perhaps some people were a little nicer to me, but I'd like to think that was because I was friendly and kind of a peacemaker. I certainly never leeched items or loot or gold off anyone, though I can't deny that I kind of exploited having 'friends in high places' a couple of times, either to get a friend into our guild or to get myself into another one when ours disbanded)

TL;DR: I, personally, am less active than I would like to be because this forum can feel like a hostile environment, and I want to come here for entertainment rather than to traipse through a minefield. Furthermore, I am not comfortable with the fact that actions I take (or mistakes that I make) may somehow manage to reflect on my entire gender rather than just me (and I don't think I only think that because I'm paranoid or self obsessed). I know that my attempts to minimise the 'damage' by making fewer actions won't actually solve the problem, but that doesn't make it any easier to stop doing so.

 

[Miss Riot]

Ephidel good to meet you, post more like I am trying to. don't scrap your stuff so much. I want to hear your voice and what you're all about.

 

[mollipen]

I think one question that comes up is this: are conversations like these proof that there should be women-only gaming forums? (Or, at least, forums where men would need a "sponsor" or be under high scrutiny.)

It's an interesting question for me because it also comes up when dealing with the trans topic. In discussions and panels, I've touched upon the "separation vs integration" argument, and there are positives to both.

On one side, you're provided an environment where you won't instantly feel alienated from conversation due to a core aspect of who you are. And, it might be nice to feel confident that certain discussions won't be derailed in ways that can be quick to happen on forums with both sexes (when there's no filter to the types of men that will be members).

On the other, if we always break ourselves off into separate groups, we're potentially blocking ourselves off from differing opinions that might help broaden our own, and we're avoiding the chance to help others have that same opportunity by their interactions with someone different (us).

(This May or may not have come up at this point - I've tried to keep up with the thread, but have missed some blocks of pages.)

 

[hey_monkey]

Ephidel, I'm gonna respond more closely later, but for now, claps and snaps.

 

[Miss Riot]

I think one question that comes up is this: are conversations like these proof that there should be women-only gaming forums? (Or, at least, forums where men would need a "sponsor" or be under high scrutiny.)

I say no because I don't want a walled garden. that just sounds so insane to me.