Support NeoGAF

[avaya]

Why haven't the review sites picked up on this?

Joke post?

 

[Metzhara]

So, please set me straight if I am misreading this but:

Does the Settings>Display&Sound>Picture adjustments do anything to help this.
The settings in particular are you can change the 24 bit per pixel color depth default to 36 bits and you can turn your TV color space from TV (rgb limited) to PC (rgb full).

I did also find it interesting that the console has a "Calibrate HDTV" setting which is...to be quite honest... very robust for a gaming console.

 

[Y2Kev]

I changed your title, but I really notice this in DR3. Forza obviously not. I don't think it is "nightmare" but it is pretty bad if it has this awful sharpen filter forced on all non-1080p games.

Ryse looks relatively soft though.

 

[BruiserBear]

I noticed the exact same thing OP. Even the freaking menus for Ghosts made the problem blatantly obvious. Microsoft have got to fix this.

I changed your title, but I really notice this in DR3. Forza obviously not. I don't think it is "nightmare" but it is pretty bad if it has this awful sharpen filter forced on all non-1080p games.

Ryse looks relatively soft though.

I don't think this is a maybe. It's absolutely happening.

 

[Ricerocket]

So, please set me straight if I am misreading this but:

Does the Settings>Display&Sound>Picture adjustments do anything to help this.
The settings in particular are you can change the 24 bit per pixel color depth default to 36 bits and you can turn your TV color space from TV (rgb limited) to PC (rgb full).

I did also find it interesting that the console has a "Calibrate HDTV" setting which is...to be quite honest... very robust for a gaming console.

The games themselves (that are upscaled) are being rendered with the sharpen filter. You can't control it. It was a choice to counter the blur from 720p to 1080p scaling. Some will like it because it pops out while others who know better won't.

 

[cyberheater]

Joke post?

Obvious they picked up on the resolution stuff. I've not heard about the sharpening issue before.

 

[Thrakier]

Why haven't the review sites picked up on this?

Because they can't even differentiate between 720p and 1080p:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=709820

Most of those journalists don't even know what upscaling or a scaler is, let alone a sharpening filter. They don't know about RGB Full or Limited, they don't know what black crush is. They are just happy that there is a picture on the screen, basically.

No journalist picked up on the skewed gamma processing of XBOX360. Instead, they blamed the PS3 versions because of a "washed out" look all the time.

 

[madmackem]

I noticed the exact same thing OP. Even the freaking menus for Ghosts made the problem blatantly obvious. Microsoft have got to fix this.

Yeah its really not nice effect, it seems near impossible to correct too.

 

[Y2Kev]

Obvious they picked up on the resolution stuff. I've not heard about the sharpening issue before.

It was there in DF's original botched BF4 comparison. That's why the PS4 version looked "softer" or "blurrier" to them....because they liked the sharpening filter.

 

[Kalm]

I can't speak for Ghosts but the sharpening in DR3 has nothing to do with the scaler.

It looks pretty bad -- almost like film-grain meets 70's comic books -- but there's no artificial edging or blooming at all and post processing effects look exactly the same if I force the X1 to output 720p and let my TV handle the scaling.

(Using a 60", ISF-calibrated Kuro in PC mode with zero added processing, for reference.)

EDIT: Just tested KI as well, same result. I'm pretty sure any sharpening filters have been added during development.

 

[madmackem]

I changed your title, but I really notice this in DR3. Forza obviously not. I don't think it is "nightmare" but it is pretty bad if it has this awful sharpen filter forced on all non-1080p games.

Ryse looks relatively soft though.

I guess nightmare could be construed as fanboy bait but it is a real nightmare to me its totally effecting my enjoyment of the games effected.

 

[Pwn]

You get what you pay for, Right?

Spoiler

 

[BruiserBear]

Obvious they picked up on the resolution stuff. I've not heard about the sharpening issue before.

They just repeated what they heard from other places. The XB1 over sharpening upscaling hasn't become a thing yet. I expect Digital Foundry to report on this.

 

[cyberheater]

It was there in DF's original botched BF4 comparison. That's why the PS4 version looked "softer" or "blurrier" to them....because they liked the sharpening filter.

I thought that this was game specific, not an inherent issue with the hardware. After all, when I use the scaling features on my gaming PC GPU, it does not add sharpening.

 

[Radec]

Isn't this already known way back from the reveal of BF4 on ps4 and xbone comparison?

 

[alr1ght]

Does the Bone have screwed up gamma across the board as well? Artificial sharpening is gross.

 

[Sojgat]

Sharpening does not increase your ability to pick out text from a distance unless the text is blurred by default. In fact sharpening tends to make the edges of nearby letters smudge over eachother in some sort of odd pixelated pattern. The contrast tweaks could make letters more readable but it's nothing you couldn't achieve by tweaking your tv set, and it has the nasty side effect of destroying any intention by the developers to achieve a specific colour balance. If you really have issues reading text that don't stem from myopia you should visit an optometrist to get some contrast sensitivity testing done.

I'm shortsighted, and normally without my glasses, watching tv for any length of time gives me a headache. It has nothing to do with reading text specifically, just straining my eyes to make out detail in what I perceive to be a soft/blurry image. With my glasses I'm fine. I do not see the Xbox's artificial sharpening as a positive feature (it's really terrible), it just find it funny that it's easier on my eyes.

 

[Blimblim]

I wouldnt have thought so, its native so no need to scale, maybe the output on the console is set like this? but fifa didnt seem to suffer from it in the few games ive played so far.

The console's output is way to dark. My TV was setup just a few weeks ago with my work's color meter and everything is pretty much as good as it can be on a LCD/LED tv, but when going to the Xbox One video calibration I simply can't see any of the dark gray/black tests like I'm supposed to. I've had to use a new scene mode on my tv so that I could get acceptable results.
It's simpler with this:

If you look on the right of the image, there is an histogram of the black to white levels of the image.
The orange/brown borders are the safe zones for TVs (16-235). Nothing should ever be there in a normal output, but as you can see, there is content in there, meaning the video output isn't as it should be.

 

[That Wont Fit In There]

Is sharpness bad?

 

[BruiserBear]

I thought that this was game specific, not an inherent issue with the hardware. After all, when I use the scaling features on my gaming PC GPU, it does not add sharpening.

It doesn't seem to be game specific. People are noticing it in the 720p games.

Isn't this already known way back from the reveal of BF4 on ps4 and xbone comparison?

Now we just have confirmation because we're finally getting to see more 720p games on the hardware.

 

[dark10x]

I noticed this immediately when I played some 720p titles on my own system this morning.

Killer Instinct and Dead Rising 3 both appear over-sharpened. It's quite ugly.

One thought that I haven't tried yet; if you set your console out to 720p perhaps sharpening will no longer be applied?

The image quality in Ryse, which is 900p, is quite fantastic, however.

 

[Broder Salsa]

Is sharpness bad?

Sharpness? No. Sharpness filters? Yes, at least when done to the extend we have seen in for example dead rising.

 

[madmackem]

The console's output is way to dark. My TV was setup just a few weeks ago with my work's color meter and everything is pretty much as good as it can be on a LCD/LED tv, but when going to the Xbox One video calibration I simply can't see any of the dark gray/black tests like I'm supposed to. I've had to use a new scene mode on my tv so that I could get acceptable results.
It's simpler with this:

If you look on the right of the image, there is an histogram of the black to white levels of the image.
The orange/brown borders are the safe zones for TVs (16-235). Nothing should ever be there in a normal output, but as you can see, there is content in there, meaning the video output isn't as it should be.

So not only is the sharpening going on my whole settings are more than likely out of wack to go along with it.

 

[Hoo-doo]

The console's output is way to dark. My TV was setup just a few weeks ago with my work's color meter and everything is pretty much as good as it can be on a LCD/LED tv, but when going to the Xbox One video calibration I simply can't see any of the dark gray/black tests like I'm supposed to. I've had to use a new scene mode on my tv so that I could get acceptable results.
It's simpler with this:

If you look on the right of the image, there is an histogram of the black to white levels of the image.
The orange/brown borders are the safe zones for TVs (16-235). Nothing should ever be there in a normal output, but as you can see, there is content in there, meaning the video output isn't as it should be.

That's a fascinating analysis.

 

[avaya]

Obvious they picked up on the resolution stuff. I've not heard about the sharpening issue before.

The specialist press apart from a very select few are on the take for their own economic survival.

The issue has been picked up. Honestly sounds like something MS chose because focus groups probably thought some people liked how it looked more - the same way that TVs in stores have god awful calibration to lure in the average consumer.

The scaler should be fixed, probably not a huge priority for MS right now.

 

[Roland1979]

Spoiler

But PC mag told us to buy a XBONE.

I always see horribly calibrated tv's when visiting people with sharpness way too high and too much color, creating a very unnatural image. And the worst thing is they think is impresses you and ask you what you think of their picture. They usually don't like my opinion. Maybe this is what people want. They prefer MC Donald's over a good meal, after all.

Is sharpness bad?

Too much of anything is bad.

 

[spwolf]

I have a sony w9 and a panny vt60 the tv isnt the issue in this case.

you have too good tv's. buy something worse .


Sharpening and Darkening was pointed out in the earliest comparo's month ago, in COD especially. We had gifs showing the difference of aliasing and crushed blacks. It was pretty huge here.

 

[Brad Grenz]

I thought that this was game specific, not an inherent issue with the hardware. After all, when I use the scaling features on my gaming PC GPU, it does not add sharpening.

Yeah, there's no real reason to believe sharpening is an inherent feature of the scaling hardware. But it is likely MS is evangelizing sharpen filters in their sub-1080p games as a way to combat blurring effect of upscaling. Crytek obviously (and rightly) didn't listen, and used their own scaling and anti-aliasing solution.

 

[That Wont Fit In There]

Sharpness? No. Sharpness filters? Yes, at least when done to the extend we have seen in for example dead rising.

I have the sharpness on my asus monitor at 80 and do see pixels on lettering. Should I lower it? Would it negatively affect image quality?

 

[IAmRandom31]

Yeah I have recently discovered the joy of 0 sharpness on my television calibration. Really, sharpening images is the worst thing you can do because you are artificially changing what the game is producing, which creates a very unnatural look.

The first thing I do now is turn sharpening off. The difference was staggering. I played AC4 for awhile with my TV calibration pretty standard, then worked with it a bit and now the image is freakin incredible. No sharpness, and messing with the color saturation and contrast has really cleaned up and brought out the individual pixels in the images produced. Incredible really. The shimmering effect and jaggies are reduced too. AC4 looks super clean now, where before when I was up at 55-60 sharpness it was a jaggy, shimmered mess of a picture when moving.

For the X1 to try and do this purposefully is staggering to me. Sounds like they are enhancing the native pixels and darkening the simulated upscaled pixels in these 720p games. Does this mean MS expects 720p to be the norm on the X1? For them to go to this much trouble to try and artificially enhance a 720p image must mean devs let them know this is what they needed to do .....

 

[madmackem]

I have the sharpness on my asus monitor at 80 and do see pixels on lettering. Should I lower it? Would it negatively affect image quality?

Yes and none, it may look a little blurry to you for a tad if youve been using it so long like that but overall youll be getting a way more natural picture if you lower it so you dont get the ringing around the text.

 

[That Wont Fit In There]

Yes and none, it may look a little blurry to you for a tad if youve been using it so long like that but overall youll be getting a way more natural picture if you lower it so you dont get the ringing around the text.

Thanks so much. I'll mess with my sharpness settings, today.

 

[Y2Kev]

Wow, I noticed the colorspace issue too but I thought it was because I had it set to full instead of limited. But my PS4 is set to limited and it looks good...then again, I thought I could be one of those idiots that likes crushed blacks.

 

[keuja]

The console's output is way to dark. My TV was setup just a few weeks ago with my work's color meter and everything is pretty much as good as it can be on a LCD/LED tv, but when going to the Xbox One video calibration I simply can't see any of the dark gray/black tests like I'm supposed to. I've had to use a new scene mode on my tv so that I could get acceptable results.
It's simpler with this:

If you look on the right of the image, there is an histogram of the black to white levels of the image.
The orange/brown borders are the safe zones for TVs (16-235). Nothing should ever be there in a normal output, but as you can see, there is content in there, meaning the video output isn't as it should be.

I'm not familiar with histograms, can someone explain how it should read?
What part of the histogram corresponds to the "safe zone" for the TV? How should it look like without the filter?

 

[dynamitejim]

It's in AC4 as well, as shown by IGN's PS4/XB1 comparison video.

 

[That Wont Fit In There]

Wow, I noticed the colorspace issue too but I thought it was because I had it set to full instead of limited. But my PS4 is set to limited and it looks good...then again, I thought I could be one of those idiots that likes crushed blacks.

What would crushed blacks look like? I need some comparison and how could I fix it if I do have crushed blacks? I noticed on call of duty and battlefield it's kind of darker compared to my cousins monitor when playing simultaneously. We both have asus monitors but mine is a ISP panel and his TN.

This is in regards to ps4, not Xbox.

 

[FloatingDivider]

Spoiler

But PC mag told us to buy a XBONE.

I always see horribly calibrated tv's when visiting people with sharpness way too high and too much color, creating a very unnatural image. And the worst thing is they think is impresses you and ask you what you think of their picture. They usually don't like my opinion. Maybe this is what people want. They prefer MC Donald's over a good meal, after all.

I hate this, I fixed the colour balance/sharpness/brightness&contrast on my girlfriends dads television using a variety of tools to get is as close to reference levels as possible and he flipped a brick about it looking bad. I set the tv to torch mode again and he thanked me for restoring his pristine picture quality with every person on tv looking like a guido in orange spray tan, so yeah .

 

[madmackem]

What would crushed blacks look like? I need some comparison and how could I fix it if I do have crushed blacks? I noticed on call of duty and battlefield it's kind of darker compared to my cousins monitor when playing simultaneously. We both have asus monitors but mine is a ISP panel and his TN.

This is in regards to ps4, not Xbox.

Something like that.

 

[Replicant]

I guess MS decided that instead of giving blurry uprez, they'd rather give dark, aliasing uprez.

 

[That Wont Fit In There]

Something like that.

Oh ok. My screen is more on the left. How do I fix this?

 

[Hoo-doo]

Sharpness settings on any TV should always, always be set to 0.

 

[pixlexic]

are you guys sure you have the correct color depth selected?

Sharpness settings on any TV should always, always be set to 0.

some tvs set true 0 in the middle.

 

[Blimblim]

Sharpness settings on any TV should always, always be set to 0.

I few tv sets actually apply a blur filter when you set sharpness to 0, but yeah most of the time sharpness should be at 0.

 

[ekim]

are you guys sure you have the correct color depth selected?

24 bit for me.

 

[That Wont Fit In There]

I few tv sets actually apply a blur filter when you set sharpness to 0, but yeah most of the time sharpness should be at 0.

What about monitors?

 

[TheBanditKing]

Wow, ill start off by saying im a bit of an image quality nerd, i set up my tvs spot on i spend alot of time doing to until i get them right.

So having read about xboxone scaler and how it darkens and over sharpens things i was worried, i booted up cod ghosts on 360 and then booted it up on my xboxone. Same settings etc and there it was clear as day even in the lobby menu. Xboxone over sharpens things way too much, anyone who is into setting up there tvs will know what it is and it jumps out like a sore thumb, the worse thing is you cant negate it, turning down sharpness etc in your tv settings doesnt remove it. For those who dont know what to look for google it its like haloing around the text. The game is made to look nearly as bad as the 360 version as the upped textures etc are being over sharpened within an inch of there lives and it adds even more jaggies.

How ms thought this would be ok is beyond me, it also means people in the gaming press havent got a clue about things like this as no one mentioned it about cod, infact they couldnt tell the difference between native and this scailing mess.

Im a tad worried now going forward of non native titles on xboxone if they all have this effect its really going to bug me.

Seriously? Thats complete crap, MS you are really dropping the ball. I wonder if this is implemented during development or if its a mandatory system/OS level process.

 

[Whiteshirt]

What about monitors?

Zero as well. High sharpness adds significant ringing to text. Text is going to be as sharp as how your OS chooses to render text (Mac and Windows do it differently). Play around with Cleartype if you don't like how text looks, if you are on Windows, but don't use your monitor's sharpening feature to fix "blurry" text.

 

[PairOfFilthySocks]

Is the thread title accurate? The filter isn't present in Ryse as far as I know.

 

[R3TRODYCE]

Sharpness settings on any TV should always, always be set to 0.

Hmm...Will try

 

[That Wont Fit In There]

Zero as well. Sharpness adds significant ringing to text.

Just changed it, thanks. How do I fix the blacks? I have a post a little above this asking how to fix it.