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Beyond: Two Souls Deserved Better Sales
- Thread starter Imbarkus
- Start date
akidnamededdy
Banned
I pretty much agree with all this.
That said, Beyond is definitely a better experience. Fact is, though, I redboxed it and beat it in a day and a half. I'm not really that compelled to replay it and see maybe some different stuff happen.
RedRedSuit
Member
- Not-great reviews + big back-log.
- Specifically, I didn't like that the wide and pervasive story branching of Heavy Rain has been reduced.
- Also specifically, I believe an intimate procedural mystery (like Heavy Rain or 1st half of Indigo Prophecy) is a good fit for this type of gameplay; on the other hand bombastic sci-fi-supernatural-whatever is not a good fit. In other words this game feels like it tacks more towards the 2nd (bad) part of Indigo Prohecy and away from the 1st (good) part of it.
Heavy Rain was a good game. It had some major issues, to be sure (all story-related and fixable in retrospect), but it was a memorable and exciting experience. I am not convinced BTS moved in the right direction. I will play it someday.
I think people pile on David Cage due to his somewhat douchy/holier-than-thou behavior in interviews. Much criticism of Heavy Rain paints it as the worst shit ever, an example of what games should never be, and a directive for him to never make a game again. This is nonsense. Yes, it had a couple of BIG narrative flaws, but this was nothing inherent to the genre or type of game he made. I know someone can take these concepts and write a better story.
---
Oh, by the way...
Atrocious writing -- I'll let you have that one. It's always easy and impressive to call something "atrocious" and hard to argue against it. I will acknowledge that the pacing of the build-up to the sex scene and the twist were horrific. Otherwise... it was good.
Horrific voice acting -- Definitely, the English one. In French with English subtitles it was good.
Constant crashes/control bugs -- No idea to what this refers. I don't recall one crash nor control bug. Of course I can't account for you personal experience.
Ugly as fuck -- No. The worst I can say about the visuals of this game was a certain offensive dead-eyeness of the characters. The uncanny valley effect was... uncanny. Overall the game looked fantastic and was very atmospheric.
A shitty MacGuffin -- What? What MacGuffin? Do you mean the plot twist? I don't recall any MacGuffin (an objective whose contents/nature are of little to no importance to the story) in this game.
RedAssedApe
Banned
thought it was better than heavy rain. too close to fall and new console launches unfortunately.
wondering if this would have done better as a ps4 title.
wondering if this would have done better as a ps4 title.
Ellen Page... makes people do weird things.
dragonbane
Member
He never said that. He wants to offer a different kind of gameplay. He is still experimenting with it, but scenes like the opening in Indigo Prophecy or the finger scene in Heavy Rain are absolutely brilliant in terms of interaction. I agree as a movie both Heavy Rain or Beyond would suck. Yet I adored those as games. How can this be? Because I loved walking around the world and interacting with it in various ways. I love shit like this and a movie could never give me the joy I felt during that scene: http://youtu.be/nZC9HKVnPWo?t=27m21s
I'm not sure you can call someone a hack when you don't even know what "betrayal" means.
What Nathan does has nothing to do with betrayal, it's called insanity caused by depression that built up over 15 years.
Finished this the other day and thought it was fantastic. Best voiced game on PS3? Maybe. Its up there with the Uncharteds etc. Some of the story moments were great and although not as cohesive as I might have liked, it was still a great ride with plenty of memorable sections. I also think its such a great looking game for the age of the hardware.
Bottom line if you got anything out of Heavy Rain you'll probably enjoy this too. Most reviews I read of this were far to critical. This game, like Heavy Rain seems to bring the critics from out of the wood work.
Bottom line if you got anything out of Heavy Rain you'll probably enjoy this too. Most reviews I read of this were far to critical. This game, like Heavy Rain seems to bring the critics from out of the wood work.
Dat Hyperbole
If you think Heavy Rain is a good story that can make you cry, then it's hard to take your belief that Beyond is much better than what's come out in theaters this year at face value. Heavy Rain was hardly on par with the writing of a Lifetime movie-of-the-week starring Lindsay Lohan. While it's conceivable Beyond is better written (everything about it seemed awful to me, where at least HR had a compelling core concept on the surface, so I won't be playing it), it's almost guaranteed that its writing and direction is eviscerated by most of the top films of the year. Because every single David Cage game always has been. He's an abysmal writer.
This just says you either have really poor taste in films (or you just choose bad films to watch) or that your opinion is so foreign for most people that it's a probably a poor metric to determine story quality.
I enjoyed Beyond a lot, and acting/graphics are obviously better, but Heavy Rain was much more interesting and tense. I played through HR quite a few times, showed it off to people, played it as a "multiplayer" game with people, etc.
I've played Beyond once on my own and I'm playing once more with my sister (her as Jodie, me as Aiden) and that'll probably be it. Playing it multiplayer is fun, though especially for scenarios like The Party (my sister was all "man, these bitches, can't I hurt them???" And I just looked at her, she said "fantastic" and hit X so fast at the Revenge option. It was pretty hilarious).
Pacing really did hurt it, it should have just been a linear story. Setting up things that play out in the ending early in the story and coming back to them a few times would have created much less of a "oh okay that came out of nowhere even though it was predictable" moment.
Liked it, but HR, even with its plot holes and silliness, was much better.
I've played Beyond once on my own and I'm playing once more with my sister (her as Jodie, me as Aiden) and that'll probably be it. Playing it multiplayer is fun, though especially for scenarios like The Party (my sister was all "man, these bitches, can't I hurt them???" And I just looked at her, she said "fantastic" and hit X so fast at the Revenge option. It was pretty hilarious).
Pacing really did hurt it, it should have just been a linear story. Setting up things that play out in the ending early in the story and coming back to them a few times would have created much less of a "oh okay that came out of nowhere even though it was predictable" moment.
Liked it, but HR, even with its plot holes and silliness, was much better.
NullPointer
Member
Not so sure here. Heavy Rain had far more interesting and ultimately consequential choices.
I absolutely loved Heavy Rain, and its one of the highlights of last gen for me, but Beyond just left me completely cold. Felt like I was just pushing forward the whole way through.
Part of the joy of Heavy Rain for me was not only the in-game scenarios, but also all the conversations afterwards where you compared how things played out with your friends. What does Beyond have to talk about really? What truly interesting scenarios were there? What interesting choices? What consequences that you could feel throughout?
The consequences and choices are a lot less obvious than HR, I agree. In Beyond multiple people can either die or be saved. It alters the endings. Relationships can be pursued or rejected, alters the endings. And obviously the choice at the end is pretty damn consequential, if nothing else is, and it alters the endings too.
But I agree, Beyond is more of a fixed story. I'm totally fine with that, personally. Choice isn't always good. People talking up how great movies are sure don't need choice for anything.
ghostface pizzakid
Member
Because David Cage
Always a smart move.
Their next game Quantic Dream is moving to a TV writing type style with a group of writers, not just David Cage, so I am hopeful they'll finally be able to match quality to the ambition of the developer.
Do you mean the dialogue, or just the general idea of the story as a whole? How was it bad? How far did you get?
I'm just curious, because comments like these just don't even seem real. I have no clue what you people are talking about.
Tha's the scary thing.
I tried the demo and didn't feel like it warranted a launch day purchase.
Also, I got too many games in my backlog so it makes no sense to me to pay 60 USD on a new release to let it unopened for weeks on end and its price droping on the stores... this happened to TLOU, bought it out of hype and still didn't find the time to play.
Also, I got too many games in my backlog so it makes no sense to me to pay 60 USD on a new release to let it unopened for weeks on end and its price droping on the stores... this happened to TLOU, bought it out of hype and still didn't find the time to play.
GrumpyOutlander
Member
I really enjoyed Heavy Rain, and played though it multiple time. Beyond: Two Souls never interested too much. I'll play it eventually though.
People who like the story are scary now? lol
The hyperbole train keeps rolling on I guess. Who can hate it the most? We must give the winner a prize.
dragonbane
Member
I do, actually I read far more books and watch movies than I play games. Unfortunately I lost interest in shootbang a while ago. Of course I cry at movies and books. Actually I cry pretty fast when something truly affects me and I'm a sucker for some common things like dogs. But it never happened with a game before, so I don't cry THAT easily. The first time I teared up at a game was 2012 during TWD and I played pretty much all "major" games that came out since GTA 3. The Last of Us came close and the ending actually made me shed a tear. Nothing in those games came close to Beyond for me. I flat out lost it like a baby during a certain scene. Since Heavy Rain didn't move me in the slightest (except that it was pretty intense) there was something different about Beyond.
You make some good points. I think most people only read some quotes and then hate Cage because of them. But there is a big difference between saying something because you are a douche or because you are passionate about the medium. Cage clearly falls into the latter category and I know a lot of people who grew to appreciate Cage after they attended one of his speeches and talked to him in person. He is pretty nice and humble actually. I also do think some things don't come across as he wants because of language issues. His French interviews are more enjoyable most of the time.
Mike Bithell, creator of Thomas Was Alone, for example:
RockmanWhore
Member
The way games ape movies these days really piss me off, it didn't bother me back then, but nowadays, every damned games are rotten with all those cut-scenes and dialogs, and Beyond is kind of the epitome of that trend. It's basically a game mimicking movies. It looks like it's a fine game but it's definitely not what I want to "play" right now. I'll probably buy it in a few month when I'll find a cheap copy, the demo was alright.
Also there's a problem with David Cage writing terrible stories. They hired some high profile actors for Beyond, and it looks like it worked well, but next time, QD needs to hire a real writer. David Cage seems to be pretty good at directing the studio and his vision is awesome, but the stories in his games are garbage. People complain about the shitty story in Heavy Rain and Beyond, and it looks like he's taking it as a personal attack about his vision that games can be something else than action games. Which is a fine vision, even if it's not what I want these days, but I don't see these kind of complain about other similar games like Phoenix Wright, The Walking Dead or A Wolf Among Us, these games are nothing but texts/dialogs/cut-scenes, but somehow people like those games, what do these games have in common? Yes, great stories.
So stop complaining like a little girl David, get your shit together, accept the fact that you can't write a decent story (it's okay bro, you have other qualities), hire a good writer, and enjoy the success!
Also there's a problem with David Cage writing terrible stories. They hired some high profile actors for Beyond, and it looks like it worked well, but next time, QD needs to hire a real writer. David Cage seems to be pretty good at directing the studio and his vision is awesome, but the stories in his games are garbage. People complain about the shitty story in Heavy Rain and Beyond, and it looks like he's taking it as a personal attack about his vision that games can be something else than action games. Which is a fine vision, even if it's not what I want these days, but I don't see these kind of complain about other similar games like Phoenix Wright, The Walking Dead or A Wolf Among Us, these games are nothing but texts/dialogs/cut-scenes, but somehow people like those games, what do these games have in common? Yes, great stories.
So stop complaining like a little girl David, get your shit together, accept the fact that you can't write a decent story (it's okay bro, you have other qualities), hire a good writer, and enjoy the success!
There were great moments in this game that 'transported me into the world'. The whole Navajo section had an eeriness about it that no other game has matched. The playable homeless section also transported me into a life I've never experienced. Although I understand its a fictional reality, some of the things you do were still quite a leap from my world and I enjoyed the ride. I could go on and on, but at the end of the day many people prefer to focus the negatives and this genre of game seems to attract that level of criticism.
I played through the entire game and I'm completely baffled when people say the story was well written or that they cried at the ending so go figure that one out
I haven't read through this thread but there's plenty of sloppy writing in Beyond:
the entire birthday party scene, the big twist at the end of the middle east chapter, the fact that the game keeps trying to convince you to make up with Ryan even though he is the worst kind of scumbag, the fact that Nathan's plan to merge the two worlds to get his family back makes no sense, etc.
I guess some people just have different opinions of what constitutes a good story I guess.
I want to reiterate that this finally may be happening since their next game moves to a new writing format, with a team of writers TV-style. I remain optimistic that it finally may match his lofty ideals.
The Silver
Member
I really enjoyed Heavy Rain, one of the most tense games I've ever played.
I just didn't care for Beyond, it was a pretty game and had some good voice acting but I just ended up not getting invested in Jodie or Aiden or any of the other characters, I just had a meh face for the entire game.
Also the game felt like it was stuck in a weird place between episodic and serial.
I just didn't care for Beyond, it was a pretty game and had some good voice acting but I just ended up not getting invested in Jodie or Aiden or any of the other characters, I just had a meh face for the entire game.
Also the game felt like it was stuck in a weird place between episodic and serial.
I wasn't that into the birthday scene, but I played the game with my girlfriend and she said that was her very favorite scene in the game, and the moment she started to really empathize with Jodie's struggles. She basically said that the scene almost perfectly summarized her experiences as a teenager.
For me, I thought it was an okay scene. I enjoyed being able to turn the tables on them, and I liked that Nathan was still an understanding, sympathetic person at the end of it. I can see how people think the kids were too bratty, or too aggressive. But if that is really the only criticism leveled at the scene, I can live with it.
This was my favorite chapter in the game, easily. I thought the twist was awesome, and the whole level was awesome. I don't know what people think is bad about it. CIA/military sending a person in to do dirty work, and them later regretting it is a common story in countless movies and games. I don't see the issue at all.
I thought this was the biggest weakness in the writing. They skipped the time period that shows why Jodie fell for him. I rejected Ryan for the whole game, and was glad I had the option to do it. I did it because I liked the twist at the end of the military mission, and I held him responsible for what happened. Me holding on to the grudge was my way of honoring the memory of that mission, and not simply forgetting it.
So yeah, they needed to expand the love interest part of the story. But this was such a small part of why I was even interested in the game that it doesn't really shape how I feel about it. I'd be fine if they just deleted the entire possibility of a love interest. The world, and the relationship she had with Cole/Nathan was far more interesting.
dragonbane
Member
Definitely. The strong rumours about sci-fi, semi open-world, online components and the job postings searching for AI programmers on their website are also very positive signs.
I agree with your point about Ryan. Worst part of the writing for sure.
I also loved shooting him down again and again, but it did kinda felt forced.
Nathan was clearly insane, so of course it doesn't make any sense. When you are insane a lot suddenly starts making sense.
RSB
Banned
I didn't cry, but this game definetly made me feel more than the vast majority of movies/books. I guess the main reason is that Beyond is interactive, so, for example
Love that shit.
It's pretty cool to see how even just a little bit of interactivity can help make many scenes more powerful, and that's why I'll never understand the people who criticize games like Beyond, TWD, Heavy Rain, etc. for being "just" interactive movies. I mean, it's true that they are basically Interactive movies, but it's precisely the interactivity that makes the experience so much better and more meaningful. Would the ending of The Walking Dead affect me so much if I was just watching it on Youtube? No, not even close. The same with the scene I described in the first paragraph.
BTW, am I weird or something? The thing is that I love games like Bayonetta, Super Meat Boy, Mirror's Edge, Trials Evolution, etc. which are basically pure gameplay (amazing gameplay, actually) but at the same time I love games like Beyond, Deadly Premonition, The Walking Dead, Heavy Rain, etc, which are basically interactive movies, When I read these threads I always end up feeling like I'm part of a weird minority of players that can somehow enjoy both ends of the spectrum (and everything in between) just fine. Heh.
if you sabotage the date with Ryan, there's a very moving scene with Jodie afterwards, and it made me feel like shit (in the good sense, LOL) because it was my fault. Nobody was forcing me to ruin her date, but I did it anyway, and Jodie was devastated, because of me.
It's pretty cool to see how even just a little bit of interactivity can help make many scenes more powerful, and that's why I'll never understand the people who criticize games like Beyond, TWD, Heavy Rain, etc. for being "just" interactive movies. I mean, it's true that they are basically Interactive movies, but it's precisely the interactivity that makes the experience so much better and more meaningful. Would the ending of The Walking Dead affect me so much if I was just watching it on Youtube? No, not even close. The same with the scene I described in the first paragraph.
BTW, am I weird or something? The thing is that I love games like Bayonetta, Super Meat Boy, Mirror's Edge, Trials Evolution, etc. which are basically pure gameplay (amazing gameplay, actually) but at the same time I love games like Beyond, Deadly Premonition, The Walking Dead, Heavy Rain, etc, which are basically interactive movies, When I read these threads I always end up feeling like I'm part of a weird minority of players that can somehow enjoy both ends of the spectrum (and everything in between) just fine. Heh.
staticneuron
Member
One of the things that really got me was when we see is family in that device. I was like.... it looks like they are in pain or anguish. Man oh man, that was just a great capture performance, for that to be conveyed without any sound nor a clear image of their faces.
I walked in with lowered expectations because of the reviews and some comments. Walked away from this thinking this was the best QD title to date.
Zeouterlimits
Member
I rented Heavy Rain and while I appreciated the ambition I found the writing poor, the mechanics a bit awkward and ultimately just found the game okay, if something I didn't necessarily want to go back to.
B:TS didn't seem "good enough" to justify when I was already playing better games. I might pick it up cheap or something one day.
B:TS didn't seem "good enough" to justify when I was already playing better games. I might pick it up cheap or something one day.
RedRedSuit
Member
For my part, I don't find what he says holier-than-though, or at least I don't find his personality abrasive or offensive. I think he makes valid criticisms of the industry.
What rubs people (not me individually -- all I care about is the finished game, regardless of where it came from) wrong is:
1. He is very persistent and repetitive with this seemingly obvious message: games should be about story and not always shooting, etc. I think many people are attracted towards story-based games; it's just that it's a difficult problem. Him lecturing about it repeatedly and not particularly humbly does not really help.
2. He does not necessarily come from a great place of authority in saying those things. Yes, he is an experienced game director, but he has not yet had the consistency of output that enables him to necessarily lecture his peers with sufficient authority.
3. He is an "auteur," and people automatically have prejudice against someone like that, unless that person can REALLY back it up.
I think those are responses that, from a PR perspective, are to be expected, and if he really weighed that fact in his mind, he would probably be a bit more diplomatic. However, for their part, critics and the public should learn to separate that stuff from the actual games.
Imbarkus
As Sartre noted in his contemplation on Hell in No Exit, the true horror is other members.
My opinion is just that. I don't really care if other people think it's an objective metric of quality or not. I have enough voices here that have agreed with me that I don't feel like an anomaly. I'm just going to disagree with your opinion without insulting it, 'kay? Enough of that going around here...
No I'm like you. Often the uniqueness of an experience is what draws me to it.
Such an exciting medium to work with, I just like seeing the results of people trying different things with it. Honestly I would say that quality applies to all the action games you listed too.
equippedwithtowel
Member
To The Moon is the game David Cage wishes he made. And its dialog is not that great, however is does manage to have a understanding of emotion that is vaguely human.
HotHamWater
Member
Spec Ops: The Line should have sold 30 mil, then.
It's not insulting to say the obvious. Heavy Rain, for example, was riddled with thematic inconsistencies, plot holes and some of the most stilted, atrocious dialogue that was in a game that year. People have written thousands of words on the subject of why it is problematic, some of which are impossible to deny. What usually results is people just saying they were emotionally moved DESPITE those problems.
There are movies that exist each year with few if any plot holes, extremely strong pacing and plotting, and legit oscar worthy acting (I don't know about Beyond, but HR was a disaster in that regard).
Things like tears must be earned by the quality of the story producing them. I am fine with you thinking it earned it. But, you must also recognize that such a comment - that Beyond is better than most movies of the year - is so absurd by any definition that one MUST take it to task. It's not like you said "here's a game that finally might compete with a decent movie." You claimed it's better than MOST films of the year.
Riposte
Member
The Walking Dead makes Heavy Rain look like Alpha Protocol. What you said actually stunned me.
I thought Farenheit was a genuinely good game. It became pretty wack at the end, but it's an overall great game. Easily Cage's best game to date.
Heavy Rain was a good game as well...not as good, but it was alright.
Beyond wasn't good at all, and I can see why the game flopped. The disconnected structure, the lack of gameplay, and the poor writing just makes it a bad game. It tries to be something it isn't, and the whole thing just falls flat on his face.
Cage needs to evaluate his approach. I thought the tech demo "Kara" was a fantastic concept that could be further explored upon. Hopefully, he'll bring in a team of writers going in for QD next game.
Heavy Rain was a good game as well...not as good, but it was alright.
Beyond wasn't good at all, and I can see why the game flopped. The disconnected structure, the lack of gameplay, and the poor writing just makes it a bad game. It tries to be something it isn't, and the whole thing just falls flat on his face.
Cage needs to evaluate his approach. I thought the tech demo "Kara" was a fantastic concept that could be further explored upon. Hopefully, he'll bring in a team of writers going in for QD next game.
Matt2thefuture
Member
Beyond was not a game, that was it's problem. Not many played the dlc for Beyond but If you haven't I recommend it, highly. That is what the game should have been. Not meaning the game should have been like portal and your in a test chamber but more you solve puzzles with your ghost and use your actual brain. Aka the dlc was the only section that played like a game with actual problem solving. I think Heavy rain was better because the the story was more coherient and wasn't so messy and all over the place. Beyond was all over the place, one minute your hanging with hobos the next your fighting off Indian ghost spirits. There of course were some great moments but those tended to be the smaller moments, and the problem was the whole game was just one giant QTE instead of actually having puzzles or any actual gameplay. Some of the time The QTE didn't even matter what you did the outcome was the same. I think the art, music and even acting was wasted on such a bad game and script. I feel like this was a step backwards instead of forwards for QD, obvoiusly not technology wise but story and gameplay wise. This was like them being like "let's just make an interactive movie for people who don't play games."...except Sony didnt market it that way (or at all) and I think overall I want to see them make smarter games for gamers not dumber....
willskate4free
Member
i didn't buy it right away because of GTA 5 and saving up for the new gen.. but the wife got it for me on black friday and i loved it.. thought it was great and loved the story... but yea those are the reasons i didn't jump on it right away.
Muffdraul
Member
Ah, well. Ellen Page is already a big turn off for me, didn't take much to push it over the line. I'm sure I'll play it someday. I admire David Cage for pushing the envelope into left field and doing weird shit.
I think one could look at Cloud Atlas to see how far games have to come. Cloud Atlas is a hugely flawed film, yet it does things with its directing and structure that are so expertly handled that a title like Beyond can only look on in shame.
I am not one who thinks the type of game Quantic Dreams makes isn't capable of producing something great. But as always, when you make a a game for which the primary and basically only draw is its story (and the choices you can make to change said story), then the story must be damned fucking good. All problems will be amplified by definition. They must be. There's nothing else to make up for a massive failing in writing if it's not up to snuff in such a videogame. People are not playing these games for deep gameplay mechanics. They're playing it to be engrossed in a story for which they feel they have some agency over the results.
So, people who wonder why people are SO harsh over titles like Heavy Rain should really take that into account. It's not like Final Fantasy or Lost Odyssey or Bayonetta. There's not much else to hold onto if the story IS poor.
M
Macapala
Unconfirmed Member
I watched a bit of the game on youtube, but it just felt like I was watching every cliched Hollywood movie all mixed into one. Not interested.
There are much better games with MUCH better stories on offer.
There are much better games with MUCH better stories on offer.