pretty much what he's saying
and he's late to that part of the debate by like 3 years
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STEAM 2013 Announcements & Updates VIII - Don't ask when the sales are starting.
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and he's late to that part of the debate by like 3 years
Well I wish I had known that, for real. Like I said, they should put that as a warning to buyers, because that goes against the goal of every other video game ever made.
Okay, you're just trolling now, aren't you.
Madrugador
Member
boogie2988 (the guy who does Francis) did a great video about Early Access games, explaining the pros and cons about the system. Focuses a lot in what Steam has been doing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxD-ENSsTk0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxD-ENSsTk0
jediyoshi
Member
brb replaying rogue warrior
Uneducated assumption? Please don't act condescending here just because I don't see something in a game that you see.
Perhaps you could instead try and tell me this deep point that I'm missing out on, because I'm such an uneducated moron.
And I think I've admitted several times now it wasn't what I thought. I had seriously never once heard anybody talk about how it wasn't fun or satisfying. Not sure where I should have picked that up from, considering that every other game I've ever played has at least strived for one of those in some capacity.
I also have no problem with a game not being what I expect. I don't mind surprises. My expectations really have very little to do with how I feel about what I played.
I figured he had no interest in any of the game's thematic elements, which is why I gave him the purely mechanical money-making tip, which is very easy to enact.
If money is the major stumbling block, feed and heat your family every other day, and you'll start to amass it more easily.
If money is the major stumbling block, feed and heat your family every other day, and you'll start to amass it more easily.
morningbus
Serious Sam is a wicked gahbidge series for chowdaheads.
And he was so happy when I finally let him in!
I mean, you gotta give the guy an A for effort!
I had to double take where I finally let him in. I was half expecting to get written up or that he was a terrorist or something. Just a honest bloke in the end. Hahaha oh the life of a checkpoint guard.
It has a lot of rogue-like elements. There is no save system, you only get one 'life' and you basically just see how far you can get in that one go. I'm guessing people tend to learn things and then replay it and see if it can help them get further.
Those are all elements of rogue-likes if I'm not mistaken. Its certainly far closer to a rogue-like than any other genre I can imagine labelling it.
But sure, its just like calling it an FPS.
Uh. I 'finished' it in one go (as in: did one of the possible storylines), cold.
It's a simple matter of choice and paying attention to the fucking rules as they are explained to you every day.
It also saves each day, and you can retry from those if you feel you've messed up too badly.
So no, not a roguelike at all.
SteveWinwood
Member
what on earth is going on in here
you're condemning a whole medium to banality because you thought the game was too punishing or something
I don't mind you hating the game itself for whatever reason you can come up with, that's your choice and you'd be right on every one of them, but "games are not deep. they have very little to say" is a really ignorant thing to say
indie games have already defeated this argument years ago, can people not liking indie games just accept that those games are not for them and we can all just move on?
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to be fair to you I get where you come from with the roguelike thing (like, it at least gives the impression of permadeath and super hardcore punishing rules and shit) but it's just one more thing that goes to show how little thought you've put in the whole thing. you think the game is shit and tedious and boring and awful? fine by me, just don't insult my capacity to find meaning in them pls
I'm coming out of the lurking shadows wondering the same thing.
Can the game not have a message because the player doesn't perceive it as fun?
Hate to break up all the games as art / why cant roguelike crawl debate, but thanks to Anon for the Pid key.
And in that vein, here's my own version of a very popular giveaway today....
And in that vein, here's my own version of a very popular giveaway today....
ModBot said:Instructions for participants:
I am giving away 2 Steam keys. To enter this giveaway, send a PM to ModBot with any subject line. In the body, copy and paste the entire line below that corresponds to the key you want (if you include more than one game, you will be blocked from entering).
Rules for this Giveaway:
- If the key is already taken you will not receive a reply. Replies may take a minute or two:
Little Inferno --MB-8213A1F29DA604AA- Taken by FauX
Gemini Rue --MB-BFDB41D66CDDF196- Taken by Atraveller
Atraveller
Banned
Thanks for Gemini Rue!
Its a cool premise, I just wasn't particularly enthused about the way things played out. Like I said, I enjoyed the inspecting papers parts and all. That was pretty interesting and something different.
But yea, not being able to make any money really hurt my ability to have any sustainable satisfaction for what I was doing. I think its pretty normal to want *some* sort of positive feedback for doing a good job(especially as an immigration officer and terrorist attacks are on the line) and evidently I was not doing a good job, even though my biggest concern was not making errors and getting the right people through.
I want to like it and I'm pretty sure if I could just make more money, I would actually have fun. Which is why I think all these 'its not supposed to be fun' arguments are a bit ridiculous.
That's been true for a while now. I can't remember where it was but there was an article about how the term roguelike has been watered down as more and more developers use it to describe their game. Overall the genre definition has become too loose, only relating to a handful of common traits like "it's pretty unforgiving" or "permadeath", but you can for example equate FTL to the Binding of Isaac as both being roguelikes (or roguelike-likes) but the term does nothing to suggest that fans of one would be fans of the other since they are so vastly different.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
You do get enjoyment from the game, but it is intentionally banal (this is the thematic statement of the game; making something serious and dull into a game, and in turn making games into something not fun or exciting) and the difficulty curve is intentionally punishing. That's what people are saying to you. The expectation is that if you play sub-optimally, you might need to lose a family member. The expectation is that you never quite have enough money. Zeliard spoiled how to make the game require significantly less money and be way easier. But even then, good play should be rewarded and you should be able to keep just enough ahead of the curve.
First, are you playing on Easy? If not you should.
Second, this is me loading my game save from Day 5, I am going to show you screenshots to see if you're doing something different. Note, I use colour grading on my monitor so if everything looks yellowed out, that's why:
We begin our day:
- What is the new rule today? Arstotzkans need an ID card, foreigners need an Entry Permit. Entry Tickets are not enough.
- Let's put the newspaper away, get the rules booklet in place so that we can clearly see what today's rules are for quick reference. We open the shutter and click the loudspeaker so that the first person can show up.
- Take all the documents and spread them out on the desk so that we can see as much as possible. Okay, now let's work our way through the rules. Entrant needs a passport. Well, he has one. Good. All documents must be current. Okay, check bottom-left corner for today's date. November 26th, 82. Passport is up to date. Entry permit is up to date. He's a foreigner, not a citizen, so he doesn't need an ID card. Foreigners require an entry permit. Does he have an entry permit? Yes.
- Now we need to do a secondary scan to make sure all documents match properly. Does his name match? Yes. Does his gender match him visually? Yes. Does the photo match the guy in the booth? Yes. Does the passport number match on both documents? Yes. Does his verbal statement match the entry permit saying he's immigrating forever? Yes (you can't see it in the picture, but you can see his text when he speaks it. If not, haul up the transcript from the middle of the left-hand side bar to confirm.
- The last thing you need to check is whether or not the issuing city is a real place in Kolechia and whether or not the Entry Pass stamp matches what you would expect it to. Drag the rule book from the right up over the other documents, use the bookmark to go back to the table of contents, click Regional Map, click Kolechia. West Grestin is an issuing city. Now click the bookmark, click Documents, click Entry Permit. The symbol matches.
APPROVE
Next:
- Rule error: Remember that we need an entry PERMIT, not an entry TICKET. Let's identify this error:
Despite his friendly demeanor, he doesn't have what he needs
DENY
Next:
- Everything seems good but wait Aaron and Aarin aren't the same name.
- Fingerprint the guy
- He has no legally registered alias for Aarin, which suggests that the document that says Aarin is forged.
DENY
Next:
- Expiry date on that Entry Permit!
DENY
Next:
Do you see what I see?
The passport number doesn't match the entry permit number
DENY
Next:
Names don't match
Next:
Looks above board to me!!!!!
Approve!
What the fuck is this shit?
Next:
He's a citizen, but he doesn't have any ID
It's possible at this juncture that he'll cough up his ID. If he does and everything checks out, you can approve him. In this case he didn't, so I denied him.
Next:
I don't show the entry permit here, but basically he's an example of someone who appears to be above board. My last step before approve is to haul out the rules book and switch to her region to make sure the city name is a real one. It is, and I approved her.
Did you do anything differently?
SteveWinwood
Member
It hasn't had any meaning for years now. The original rogue is nothing like what most would call a rogue like and apparently all it needs nowadays is permadeath (which that game doesn't have anyhow).
It's a puzzle game.
There is also a save system. It saves after every day, and you can continue from whichever day in your playthrough, so if you dig yourself into a hole you can rewind back a couple days or whatever appropriate length and fix your mistakes.
You also have more than one "life," as you can beat the game with only one family member left standing and still "win." The other way to get a game over is to be unable to pay a citation penalty, and that requires more than two citations in one day and a balance low enough that you're unable to pay the 5 credits for each subsequent one.
I would suggest trying it out again using the heat/food every other day tip and see if that changes things for you.
Dude, the game is marketed as an 80s totalitarian eastern block bureaucracy simulator.
Which of these words suggested 'making money' and 'fun' to you?
You have been playing the wrong games.
Or you just like to turn your brain off and play certain types of games, which is perfectly fine, but that doesn't mean all games have to conform to your perception of the medium.
yay jarji aproved :3
it's what I did as I'm waiting for the game to get a little cheaper
btw for you or anyone that's interested you can play the beta for free here: http://dukope.com/
it's what I did as I'm waiting for the game to get a little cheaper
Atraveller
Banned
A games doesn't have to be fun to be enjoyed.
Edit: Yeah, I need to go play Papers, please too.
Edit: Yeah, I need to go play Papers, please too.
Ingueferroque
Banned
I really cant believe I'm having this argument.
Sorry, but video games are not deep. They have very little to say. I don't know what point there was that I'm missing that was worth me spending time and money to learn that I didn't already know.
"Its not supposed to be fun!"
Well I wish I had known that, for real. Like I said, they should put that as a warning to buyers, because that goes against the goal of every other video game ever made.
Thanks for telling us what games should be.
Play it Monk, I think you will really enjoy it.
I think Papers, Please is a blast though! The general gameplay is really unique and a lot of fun.
Indie games are serious business.
Too serious for me to still not care
yup that's the craziest of all
it's not like we're talking about dear esther or some shit like that
Didn't realize it saved each day.
Also, congrats on being better at it than I was. You are fucking awesome.
I don't find video games to be deep, no. I think many try to be and I think they mostly all fall flat, with very surface level 'District 9' types of moral pandering and story depth.
I also never said anything about YOU finding meaning in them. You are the one who refused to point out this 'meaning' to me, just repeating how obvious it is and trying to make me out to be some fucking idiot instead of maybe explaining what I was missing.
Anyways, this has gone on way too long. I feel like some of you are just being a bit rude about things now just because I didn't see something in a game that you did. Whatever.
EDIT: But thanks to those who are trying to be helpful for the tips. I will give them a try. Especially the sticking it on Easy bit! Didn't realize there was difficulty options.
Atraveller
Banned
I usually leave shadow broker and arrival until I beat the game, and I always bring Legion to overlord.
I haven't played it, I'll take your word for that.
Maybe in the real world, but in the UnReal World... oh well it's just UnReal World.
http://www.unrealworld.fi/
I really cant believe I'm having this argument.
Sorry, but video games are not deep. They have very little to say. I don't know what point there was that I'm missing that was worth me spending time and money to learn that I didn't already know.
"Its not supposed to be fun!"
Well I wish I had known that, for real. Like I said, they should put that as a warning to buyers, because that goes against the goal of every other video game ever made.
It's been a long time since video games, like movies before them, have been purely about just fun. As a medium it has since evolved as a way to educated, inform, and bring forth understanding or discussion of concepts beyond purely "this is fun" or "this is boring".
Take for example Depression Quest. A video game designed to help spread awareness of what it is to live with depression.
Like all mediums once the discovery phase of how it can be used is no longer the average, people begin to use it to do share messages with each other. Sometimes while pursuing profit, sometimes just for the sake of art, and sometimes because that's the only way they can get it out there. It's to the point where in psychology, the use of video games has become an aspect of art therapy.
Video games, movies, novels, paintings, sculptures, etc will only have very little to say if they are designed with very little to say. Which is a good thing in the end, and like those other forms of expression, it's still going to be 80% fun/pleasing to behold.
Now as for Papers, Please not being "fun" and missing out on that. I can fully understand that, sometimes people have such an experience with a movie or song or video game that it resonates with them, they forget the express why exactly and the default belief almost always is "well they must have had fun with it". That's why it's always important to look into games a bit more before getting them these days.
I just wish I would always do that with movies. "Robin Williams in One Hour Photo? Sure, I could use a comedy" I said borrowing a copy from a friend years ago.
Edit: Ah, I missed your later post where you said you didn't find any meaning. So I assume you just misspoke and meant to type "Sorry, but video games are not deep to me". Which is quite fair, I still don't get U.S. country music about losing a love, but for those that do I'm glad they can enjoy them and get a lot of meaning out of them.
How do you quantify fun? Christ the definition of fun is an activity from which amuses you. Some little boys pull the legs of spiders,some little girls make pies out of mud. That fun to them and that's at a basic childlike level of innocence, where as there's way move deviant notions of "fun" out there. I feel people take too much stock in metrics and being told what they should enjoy than finding out what they actually enjoy themselves. And on that note I'm off to bed.
jediyoshi
Member
If that's what you took away from that, I'm sorry, but yeah, I'm done too.
Have fun playing whatever games you find fun.
Thanks for that.
Watch me getting soon and in less than a week being a Bundle. I can feel it happening.
MMBosstones86
Member
Bioshock Infinite was the best rogue-like i played this year
I think it's kind of fucked up that everyone is jumping down this guy's throat for not enjoying Papers, Please. Let the man like or not like what he so chooses.
This indie game will survive without the whole of neogaf jumping to defend it's honor.
EDIT:
Also, after Cart Life I'm not particularly thrilled about the prospect of "playing" another hobo simulator either. If I may be so bold as to suggest what I've been kind of looking at that might scratch a similar gameplay itch: Cook, Serve, Delicious a game made by one of us that seems way more upbeat and fun (whatever that is) despite being rooted in the idea of doing an otherwise mundane task.
This indie game will survive without the whole of neogaf jumping to defend it's honor.
EDIT:
Also, after Cart Life I'm not particularly thrilled about the prospect of "playing" another hobo simulator either. If I may be so bold as to suggest what I've been kind of looking at that might scratch a similar gameplay itch: Cook, Serve, Delicious a game made by one of us that seems way more upbeat and fun (whatever that is) despite being rooted in the idea of doing an otherwise mundane task.
Atraveller
Banned
I liked District 9.
SteveWinwood
Member
guys i need a rogue like metroidvania to play
Except it totally wasn't about that. Hell, I'm fine with him not enjoying it. That's okay, there's loads of games I don't enjoy either.
It was his mislabeling, reasoning why and subsequent answers that kept missing the point people were trying to make.
(Also, obligatory.)
I'm nice.
You are.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
You are the only one around here who doesn't roll with a shank in their pocket at all times.I'm nice.
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