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[scar tissue]

Ready to fucking read now? That link was not a case where the kids "re-created" a bully scene so they could kill the bullies and claim self defense. It was a straight up bait into murder.

Try again.

Yeah, the linked story has ZERO to do with bullying except for the headline.
Whatever happened to at least briefly scanning over a story before linking it as proof?

 

[Fallout-NL]

Really... everyone here who's defending that bully prick and other pricks like him. Have you ever suffered years of verbal and social abuse? Do you have any idea what it's like? No to mention if it escalates in physical threats as well?

Bullies are among the lowest of the low.


Truly the scum of the earth. Right up there, just a notch under rapists and murderers.

 

[mavs]

Kids get into fights. Of course it's senseless, but I don't see how the answer is carrying around a weapon for self defense. I don't know how we got to the point as a society where this is a potentially life-threatening event which requires lethal retaliation from a deadly weapon.

Yes, anything can happen. But the overwhelming majority of the time, kids in school don't die from getting into fist fights.

I'm not sure the evidence even shows they got into a fist fight. The only punch mentioned was to the back of the head, and if your head is facing away from a punch you probably weren't fighting the person who threw it.

 

[DY_nasty]

Ready to fucking read now? That link was not a case where the kids "re-created" a bully scene so they could kill the bullies and claim self defense. It was a straight up bait into murder.

Try again.

Just because they didn't re-create the scene on the bus exactly its not the same thing? They lured a bully into a murder. Its exactly what me and Faze were talking about. On top of other smaller cases where kids get lured into some parking lot to get their asses whooped by someone's older brother or threatened with a gun - its not something that never happens.

 

[Maxim726X]

There's a big difference between bullying a fist fight. A fight means you actually stand chance of 'winning', bullying is merely someone being overpowered - either by one or several attackers - and pummeled.

In addition, a fist fight may be a one off thing, where as bullying can last years and lead to serious long term trauma.

Bullies have caused serious brain injury and even death to people, be it suicide or a direct result of the attacks. So yes, bullying does make you fear for your life.

Bullying can certainly cause long term trauma. Is the solution carrying a weapon that can kill someone? Is that what we've come to?

It's not like bullying is a new phenomena. We dealt with it, our parents dealt with it. I guess I'm in the minority, but using a knife is not the answer. It's not justifiable.

 

[GraveRobberX]

I suppose to some people here, there is no such thing as "the ground" or "the curb" or "rocks" where you head can land and crack your fucking skull.

Hey getting "Knocked the Fuck Out" is a right of passage, Didn't ya' know?

Under no circumstance can a kid get injured by getting hit/blow to the head
If that doesn't damage them, somehow the aftermath of it, ie falling awkwardly, landing in the wrong position that can lead to further injury, is all Hollywood magic

 

[Jim E. Rossler]

Kids get into fights. Of course it's senseless, but I don't see how the answer is carrying around a weapon for self defense. I don't know how we got to the point as a society where this is a potentially life-threatening event which requires lethal retaliation from a deadly weapon.

Yes, anything can happen. But the overwhelming majority of the time, kids in school don't die from getting into fist fights.

It wasn't a fight
It was assault
It takes two to fight, takes one to assault another.

I knew someone in my HS get brain damage from getting stomped out on the 2nd floor of the school. You can't predict when things like that happen, but I'll tell you that you don't need a group of guys with you just to push around one kid your bullying. You said 'the overwhelming majority of the time, kids in school don't die from getting into fist fights'
Well the overwhelming majority of the time, bullies in school don't follow their targets off an irregular bus stop and chase them down to Assault them in the back of the head with a group of older boys when their targets run.

 

[BoobPhysics101]

Bullying can certainly cause long term trauma. Is the solution carrying a weapon that can kill someone? Is that what we've come to?

It's not like bullying is a new phenomena. We dealt with it, our parents dealt with it. I guess I'm in the minority, but using a knife is not the answer. It's not justifiable.

Here's a big, steaming hot cup of reality to dispel your bullshit, straight from the official court documents:

Anyone care to try to spin this now?

 

[computers putin']

I'm fine with a kid defending himself and fine with the verdict, but who in their right mind would be fine with a kid dying like this?

 

[DY_nasty]

Maybe I was off base.

*shrug*

 

[Maxim726X]

Hey getting "Knocked the Fuck Out" is a right of passage, Didn't ya' know?

Under no circumstance can a kid get injured by getting hit/blow to the head
If that doesn't damage them, somehow the aftermath of it, ie falling awkwardly, landing in the wrong position that can lead to further injury, is all Hollywood magic

Where are those stats on high school fist-fight related deaths?

They must be staggering to justify carrying around a knife as means for self defense.

 

[Satyamdas]

Just because they didn't re-create the scene on the bus exactly its not the same thing? They lured a bully into a murder. Its exactly what me and Faze were talking about. On top of other smaller cases where kids get lured into some parking lot to get their asses whooped by someone's older brother or threatened with a gun - its not something that never happens.

Wrong. Faze explicitly said that this kid being dismissed of charges "sets a dangerous precedent" because other kids will now be able to re-create a bully scene and get away with killing their bully. That is paranoid delusional bullshit.

 

[Freshmaker]

He got called names, had some whipped cream thrown at him, and took one punch to the head. Who wouldn't kill another human being over that??? These vicious bullies need to be stopped.

Because you're absolutely certain that it would've stopped there.

 

[Jim E. Rossler]

Where are those stats on high school fist-fight related deaths?

They must be staggering to justify carrying around a knife as means for self defense.

Don't lock your door, you have less than a 0.001% chance of getting burglarized.

 

[DY_nasty]

Wrong. Faze explicitly said that this kid being dismissed of charges "sets a dangerous precedent" because other kids will now be able to re-create a bully scene and get away with killing their bully. That is paranoid delusional bullshit.

This kid? No.

We don't have enough facts.

I will say that this sort of situation can be easily abused though. It's not that hard to lure a bully into this sort of situation in high school with hopes of "justifiably" killing him. It's a scary precedent to be sure.

You're reaching. I will admit that I misread his post too though.

 

[Maxim726X]

Anyone care to try to spin this now?

I'm aware of how the state ruled in this case. But to pretend as if this is an open and shut, black and white case is not fair.

Clearly the judge believed that this was a justifiable reaction, but not every judge would have ruled in a similar fashion and self defense is open to interpretation.

There's no 'spin' necessary. Do you or do you not believe that stabbing someone is justifiable in this situation?

 

[Slayven]

Here's a big, steaming hot cup of reality to dispel your bullshit, straight from the official court documents:

Anyone care to try to spin this now?

Now I feel bad, the victim was in special education classes. Dude didn't catch and breaks.

 

[Risette]

Here's a big, steaming hot cup of reality to dispel your bullshit, straight from the official court documents:

Anyone care to try to spin this now?

So he didn't just hit him once in the back of the head, but threw multiple punches. This reinforces that the bullying victim could have been killed from head trauma.

 

[surly]

Because you're absolutely certain that it would've stopped there.

Yes, let's assume it wouldn't so we can justify a murder.

But hey, if you get punched in the head once you can fall and hit your head on a rock and die. Your best response to that single punch is to kill the person, just in case. That's a completely rational thing to say and not batshit crazy in the slightest, especially when talking about schoolchildren who often get into fights and scuffles.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

Bullying can certainly cause long term trauma. Is the solution carrying a weapon that can kill someone? Is that what we've come to?

It's not like bullying is a new phenomena. We dealt with it, our parents dealt with it. I guess I'm in the minority, but using a knife is not the answer. It's not justifiable.

Obviously the best solution is for parents, teachers and administrators to stop any of this before this even starts, but as we live in the real world we know it's going to happen regardless.

So, when it does happen and the subject of the bullying is the weaker of the two parties, what is it that they're supposed to do when cornered?

Weapons, knives included, are not necessarily a thing to be encouraged, but it is perfectly reasonable for someone being assaulted to use everything they have at their disposal in order to fend off an attack.

 

[Evolved1]

Here's a big, steaming hot cup of reality to dispel your bullshit, straight from the official court documents:

Anyone care to try to spin this now?

Man, you should've posted this sooner!

 

[RiccochetJ]

Don't lock your door, you have less than a 0.001% chance of getting burglarized.

I like those odds!

 

[Fallout-NL]

I'm aware of how the state ruled in this case. But to pretend as if this is an open and shut, black and white case is not fair.

Clearly the judge believed that this was a justifiable reaction, but not every judge would have ruled in a similar fashion and self defense is open to interpretation.

There's no 'spin' necessary. Do you or do you not believe that stabbing someone is justifiable in this situation?

Yes, fucking yes it was. Surrounded by a group of malicious assholes way bigger than him. What the fuck man? I'd fear for my life as well.

 

[BoobPhysics101]

Where are those stats on high school fist-fight related deaths?

They must be staggering to justify carrying around a knife as means for self defense.

Every 15 seconds, someone in the United States suffers a traumatic brain injury. Of the 1,000,000 people treated in hospital emergency rooms each year, 50,000 die and 80,000 become permanently disabled because of traumatic brain injury (TBI). This is higher than the combined incidence of Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease, and multiple sclerosis.

Brain injuries occur more frequently than breast cancer or AIDS. One out of every fifty Americans is currently living with disabilities from TBI. There's even an association between head injury and Alzheimer's disease later in life.


And, you don't have to be knocked unconscious to sustain a brain injury. Mild traumatic brain injury (MTBI), also known as concussion , can damage your brain at the cellular level .
Worse, repetitive head injuries , even minor ones, can have serious repercussions – including permanent brain damage or death.

f you are between the ages of 15 and 24 and drive a motor vehicle, ride a bicycle, or play sports, then you are at the top of the risk-list for head injury. Men are nearly twice as likely as women to injure their brains, but all of us are quite vulnerable.

Transportation accidents (cars, bikes, horses) account for nearly half of all traumatic brain injury, followed by falls (25%). Firearms (assaults and suicide) represent about 10%.


Falls are the most common cause of playground injuries and result in a higher proportion of severe injuries than either bicycle or motor vehicle crashes. Brain injuries account for 75% of children's deaths from falling off of playground equipment.
Traumatic brain injury is significantly underdiagnosed and has no cure, therefore prevention is crucial. Helmets, seat belts, air bags, and car seats have proven to reduce brain injury and death.

Source: http://www.fi.edu/learn/brain/head.html

 

[DY_nasty]

So he didn't just hit him once in the back of the head, but threw multiple punches. This reinforces that the bullying victim could have been killed from head trauma.

He should've jumped back and threw the pocket knife mid-backflip, just grazing the bully's eye - proving a point that he is not to be messed with.

 

[Dice]

Bullying can certainly cause long term trauma. Is the solution carrying a weapon that can kill someone? Is that what we've come to?

It's not like bullying is a new phenomena. We dealt with it, our parents dealt with it. I guess I'm in the minority, but using a knife is not the answer. It's not justifiable.

Why are you still ignoring the fact that fists can kill someone? As others have pointed out already, this was not a fistfight. This kid wanted out of the situation, he wanted to escape. He tried to escape, but he couldn't. He had a knife for that possibility because the inevitability was clear.

Why a knife? Because his physical inferiority was already demonstrated. His punches weren't going to do anything to stop the bully. Even if they could, how could he stop the bully's friends if they decided to help?

"But most of the time it isn't deadly"

How do you know when it will be? Is there some scientific red flag? Is there a way to be certain it won't end in your death or permanent disablement? Even if there is, would a 14 year old kid to know that? You really think he should be put away as a criminal for 8 years because he was traumatized and out of options? How do you justify that?

 

[mavs]

All that and I still feel worse for the kid who got killed than for his parents. Sorry, they are horrible people and deserve their misery, especially for trying to bring down the killer.

 

[Maxim726X]

Don't lock your door, you have less than a 0.001% chance of getting burglarized.

Anything can happen in any given situation.

If you're going to argue that it's okay to stab someone in response to getting hit in the back of the head, I would hope there's good reason to do so.

 

[BoobPhysics101]

Another two pages.

 

[GraveRobberX]

Where are those stats on high school fist-fight related deaths?

They must be staggering to justify carrying around a knife as means for self defense.

The fuck is wrong with you?

You want me to go find stats about shit like this?

So if somehow there are these stats you will STFU and and do a 180?, no you are just being a dick

Listen everyone is different, they assess situations differently

Do you think this 14 year old kid was going, Hey I need a knife, after going to google and seeing these high-school fist fight deaths stats, I need to protect myself

No the kid feared for his life, tried to diffuse the situation and the end result was death of someone, he didn't entrap his aggressor, by going, yeah I need to be bullied more, I need to make sure it's justifiable

You are just trolling in here and getting your kicks by going

Yyeah that 16 year old Junior should have just had a good ol' fight with that 14 year old, I mean boys are gonna be boys and fighting with fists is A-OK

 

[Risette]

Yes, let's assume it wouldn't so we can justify a murder.

But hey, if you get punched in the head once you can fall and hit your head on a rock and die. Your best response to that single punch is to kill the person, just in case. That's a completely rational thing to say and not batshit crazy in the slightest, especially when talking about schoolchildren who often get into fights and scuffles.

He wasn't "punched in the head once", as evidenced by the court records above. He was punched multiple times on the back of the head by someone much larger and powerful than he was.

He was in a life-threatening situation.

 

[MightyHealthy]

Anything can happen in any given situation.

If you're going to argue that it's okay to stab someone in response to getting hit in the back of the head, I would hope there's good reason to do so.

You're basically arguing that this 14 year old kid taking special education classes should have been seriously beaten and injured by a 16 year old athlete AND his friends.

Just give it the fuck up. Jesus.

 

[Shorty]

12 stabs is not self-defense

 

[Mystic Theurge]

Yes, let's assume it wouldn't so we can justify a murder.

But hey, if you get punched in the head once you can fall and hit your head on a rock and die. Your best response to that single punch is to kill the person, just in case. That's a completely rational thing to say and not batshit crazy in the slightest, especially when talking about schoolchildren who often get into fights and scuffles.

Stop being obtuse. He set out to kill him.

Edited: Didn't. Didn't set out to kill him.

 

[scar tissue]

Truly the scum of the earth. Right up there, just a notch under rapists and murderers.

Well, I wouldn't go quite that far, but the basic sentiment behind bullies (hurting other people is fun) is a very despicable one.
Fuck 'em.

 

[Maxim726X]

Why are you still ignoring the fact that fists can kill someone? As others have pointed out already, this was not a fistfight. This kid wanted out of the situation, he wanted to escape. He tried to escape, but he couldn't. He had a knife for that possibility because the inevitability was clear.

Why a knife? Because his physical inferiority was already demonstrated. His punches weren't going to do anything to stop the bully. Even if they could, how could he stop the bully's friends if they decided to help?

"But most of the time it isn't deadly"

How do you know when it will be? Is there some scientific red flag? Is there a way to be certain it won't end in your death or permanent disablement? Even if there is, would a 14 year old kid to know that? You really think he should be put away as a criminal for 8 years because he was traumatized and out of options? How do you justify that?

That's a dangerous precedent to set. Should two kids who get in a fight face criminal charges for attempted murder? Fists can kill someone, yes, but not NEARLY as often as a knife will. A fist and a knife are not equivalent.

And the kid would have been beaten. Probably even badly, and from there the kid's parents could have filed charges against the school or against the parents... There are other avenues to take other than stabbing him.

Hey, clearly the law agrees with you and not with me. I know I'm in the minority.

 

[BoobPhysics101]

Again, for anyone who is too lazy to read the above images.

Dylan Nuno and his group of friends also got off at 10th Street and started following Jorge Saavedra. Dylan Nuno yelled taunting comments at Jorge Saavedra who then picked up his pace as he walked towards his friend's house. Dylano Nuno punched him from the back and Jorge Saavedra sped up again in an effort to get away. Dylan Nuno then approached him again and started punching him repeatedly. At that time, Ian and Moses were screaming, "Get him" and "Hit him harder."

Jorgege Saavedra testified that he was light-headed from the punches and the voices of the other boys were getting closer and louder. That is when he reached in his pocket and stabbed Dylan Nuno.

That's a dangerous precedent to set. Should two kids who get in a fight face criminal charges for attempted murder? Fists can kill someone, yes, but not NEARLY as often as a knife will. A fist and a knife are not equivalent.

And the kid would have been beaten. Probably even badly, and from there the kid's parents could have filed charges against the school or against the parents... There are other avenues to take other than stabbing him.

Hey, clearly the law agrees with you and not with me. I know I'm in the minority.

Dude, please STFU. I'm sorry, but at this point you are nearly out of contact with reality. I like how you're saying 'oh the kid would have been beaten, probably even badly', and then go on to say that the kid's parents could have sued...

So it's better for him to be harmed, possibly brain-damaged, crippled, or dead, than for him to defend himself, which ended up in the aggressor being killed?

Mind-boggling. Get a fucking grip.

You're basically arguing that this 14 year old kid taking special education classes should have been seriously beaten and injured by a 16 year old athlete AND his friends.

Just give it the fuck up. Jesus.

This! It's fucking SICK. Talk about fucked up justifications.

 

[Freshmaker]

Yes, let's assume it wouldn't so we can justify a murder.

Sure. Never mind that self defense is largely based on the victim's perception of a threat.

But hey, if you get punched in the head once you can fall and hit your head on a rock and die. Your best response to that single punch is to kill the person, just in case. That's a completely rational thing to say and not batshit crazy in the slightest, especially when talking about schoolchildren who often get into fights and scuffles.

Yeah, kids should be able to beat the shit out of other kids for no reason.

Kinda amazing how many stories we get about kids beating homeless people to death since they only throw rainbows and hot breezes.

 

[RiccochetJ]

Anything can happen in any given situation.

If you're going to argue that it's okay to stab someone in response to getting hit in the back of the head, I would hope there's good reason to do so.

I wouldn't stab someone who randomly hit me in the back of the head. Probably not. It would depend on what happened after the initial hit. However, if I was involved in a situation that was clearly escalating over the course of weeks/months and the attack happened?

 

[GraveRobberX]

Maxim726X
Show Me Da' Carfax Stats!

 

[mike23]

Here's a big, steaming hot cup of reality to dispel your bullshit, straight from the official court documents:

Anyone care to try to spin this now?

So, this clearly states that the bully was still alive after 12 stabs (and still threatening the kid by sicking his friends on him), so no one can possibly argue that it was too many or excessive.

It states that the kid took a punch to the back and several to the back of the head before he pulled out his knife.

Key wording in the law is that you have to fear for significant bodily harm or death in order to defend yourself, whether said defense is lethal or not.

It is obviously, at least to me, that getting beat up by several people provides reason to fear for significant bodily harm and death.

 

[heyf00L]

This doesn't set a precedent. Stand your ground laws are common and many precedents have already been set by this point. This case is exactly what the law is designed to regulate. Even the state admitted they have no grounds for an appeal. Open and shut.

It also doesn't matter if he stabbed him 100 times. Under the law, if you reasonably suspect great bodily harm (this was established), you can use deadly force (meaning you can try to kill your attacker; gun, knife, club, whatever).

I'm not afraid of kids using this to set a trap for bullies. It should be explained to all kids, bullies and bullied. They should all know that whoever attacks first lawfully loses. I think that information could help prevent bullying.

Also, it was a pocket knife. I'm surprised 12 stabs from a kid killed him. (Edit: post above confirms my suspicions)

 

[Satyamdas]

This kid? No.

You're reaching. I will admit that I misread his post too though.

The only reaching going on is the worry that some kids who are being bullied will now, after seeing Jorge be exonerated in his case, decide that their best move is to set up a trap whereby they get their bully to attack them. For the sole purpose of killing said bully and getting away with it due to justifiable self defense.

It's just flat out idiotic to think that a terrorized kid is going to want to get in a dangerous situation that they want to avoid at all costs, just for the chance to kill their bully and hope that the court lets them off like it did for Jorge.

 

[Fallout-NL]

Anything can happen in any given situation.

If you're going to argue that it's okay to stab someone in response to getting hit in the back of the head, I would hope there's good reason to do so.

Don't try to reduce what was being inflicted on this kid as 'getting hit in the back of the head'.

 

[Demon Ice]

They only sympathy I feel is for the kid that had to arm himself and kill the shithead that was tormenting him. He's gonna need some therapy.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

So, this clearly states that the bully was still alive after 12 stabs (and still threatening the kid by sicking his friends on him), so no one can possibly argue that it was too many or excessive.

I told you sommbitches the kid was undoubtedly still fighting.

 

[DY_nasty]

naw man, 5 is the magic number when it comes to stabbing in self defense dreams. avoid vital organs too

The only reaching going on is the worry that some kids who are being bullied will now, after seeing Jorge be exonerated in his case, decide that their best move is to set up a trap whereby they get their bully to attack them. For the sole purpose of killing said bully and getting away with it due to justifiable self defense.

It's just flat out idiotic to think that a terrorized kid is going to want to get in a dangerous situation that they want to avoid at all costs, just for the chance to kill their bully and hope that the court lets them off like it did for Jorge.

He didn't say that Jorge was the blueprint or anything like that. Again, not every victim reacts the same.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

That's a dangerous precedent to set. Should two kids who get in a fight face criminal charges for attempted murder? Fists can kill someone, yes, but not NEARLY as often as a knife will. A fist and a knife are not equivalent.

And the kid would have been beaten. Probably even badly, and from there the kid's parents could have filed charges against the school or against the parents... There are other avenues to take other than stabbing him.

Hey, clearly the law agrees with you and not with me. I know I'm in the minority.

Clearly, the probably scared shitless 14-year old who was surrounded by larger kids and woozy from being punched repeatedly should have just taken his beating and prayed to Jesus that being beat up wouldn't cause irreversible brain damage or maybe death.

 

[MIMIC]

From the court papers:

So Nuno was still alive and conscious enough to instruct his friends to "Get him" after the stab wounds....from which he DIED from?

I wish there was a video or something.

 

[surly]

He wasn't "punched in the head once", as evidenced by the court records above. He was punched multiple times on the back of the head by someone much larger and powerful than he was.

He was in a life-threatening situation.

If the kid had just pushed him off a skateboard, he'd be in a "life threatening situation" according to some of you "he might bang his head on a nearby anvil" fruitcakes.

This sort of shit goes on every day in schools across the world. Bullies need to be dealt with, but not via 12 stabs to the chest and a trip to the mortuary.