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[yeoz]

also, no one answered my question. i was told that gender is not what genitals you have. i then asked what gender is, if not your sex. i was then told "it is the gender you identify with". i then said that gender as we know it is then based on stereotypes. i then asked to define gender without using the word gender, and no one could.

Unfortunately, gender really is simply what you identify with. I'm sorry if that's not helpful, so let's try this: Gender is one's innate and private sense of where they are supposed to be in the range of physical/mental/behavioral characteristics between masculinity and femininity. It can (oddly enough) be distinct from gender roles, gender expression/presentation, and from your primary or secondary sex characteristics. That is, someone's gender identity doesn't necessarily have to match their gender presentation or their sex characteristics.

Some examples, for instance, take your typical butch woman -- that is, a biological female (sex characteristics) who identifies as a woman (gender) but has masculine traits (gender expression). Or vice versa. Or, a trans man -- biological female (sex characteristics), who identifies as a man (gender), but who can have a gender presentation distinct and separate from their sex and gender (such as an androgynous gender presentation).

Not sure if that helps, but I'm (and everyone else here) willing to answer any further questions you have (assuming we're all acting in good faith here). And, I definitely don't have all the answers yet, as I'm still figuring stuff out myself. But we can all learn together, right?

edit: changed an example

 

[IMACOMPUTA]

Do we all agree that this is more of an issue with bathroom segregation than it is with sexism/inequality?
If there is a problem with how this has been handled, its because there isn't really a right answer given the way bathrooms work.

 

[besada]

please stop responding, because i will not leave challenges unmet.

If you can't control yourself, you shouldn't expect someone to do it for you.

 

[Trojita]

Do we all agree that this is more of an issue with bathroom segregation than it is with sexism/inequality?
If there is a problem with how this has been handled, its because there isn't really a right answer given the way bathrooms work.

They're discriminating against this transgendered girl.

 

[Charoncaori]

Do we all agree that this is more of an issue with bathroom segregation than it is with sexism/inequality?
If there is a problem with how this has been handled, its because there isn't really a right answer given the way bathrooms work.

I think it's an issue of adults thinking that if their little angels see a penis, they'll be scarred forever.

 

[SuperBonk]

Eliminating gender roles and puberty would eliminate gender dysphoria

You are correct. I hadn't really considered the effects of puberty but there's no denying its significance. With the elimination of gender roles, however, I would think "gender dysphoria" would become the more generalized "body dysmorphia". I mean, it would be a semantic distinction but it seems impossible to avoid semantics when talking about any issues regarding gender.

 

[Brian Griffin]

Do we all agree that this is more of an issue with bathroom segregation than it is with sexism/inequality?
If there is a problem with how this has been handled, its because there isn't really a right answer given the way bathrooms work.

There is a right answer and it is to let Coy use the girl's bathroom because she is a girl. The school singling her out and "allowing" her to use a staff bathroom or whatever is like offering to help someone up after you purposefully knocked them down.

 

[HurricaneJesus]

Child abuse? How ridiculous. Did you even watch the video about her? She likes pink and yellow because they're bright and pretty, not because they're girly.

I was a complete tomboy as a girl. Couldn't stand being called cute, hated princesses, loved sports, computers and playing in the dirt. Dressed in pretty neutral clothing, too. But I never once considered myself a boy. And my parents didn't try to push me into being one, either.

The thing is, science is coming to the conclusion that girls' and boys' brains are actually pretty different, and pretending that everyone starts as a blank slate is actually pretty damaging.

ok, not sure what you are getting at. liking pink, or bright colours is just playing into stereotypes. has nothing to do with gender.

further responses should be directed to my personal inbox, as it is a bad idea for me to keep responding.

 

[lexi]

ok, not sure what you are getting at. liking pink, or bright colours is just playing into stereotypes. has nothing to do with gender.

further responses should be directed to my personal inbox, as it is a bad idea for me to keep responding.

You never responded to me and I wasn't even employing my usual snarkasm!

 

[Devolution]

You never responded to me and I wasn't even employing my usual snarkasm!

Why respond to actual trans individuals when you can pretend to speak for their experiences in complete contradiction to what they're saying.

 

[speculawyer]

I sometimes struggle with this transgender stuff.

But whatever. Who gives a fuck? If the kid looks like a girl and acts like a girl then let him/her use the girl's bathroom? Who gives a fuck? They have stalls anyway? Why are issues created when there is no big deal?

 

[Platy]

also, no one answered my question. i was told that gender is not what genitals you have. i then asked what gender is, if not your sex. i was then told "it is the gender you identify with". i then said that gender as we know it is then based on stereotypes. i then asked to define gender without using the word gender, and no one could.

Hurricane. You want a really good answer on what gender is.

The basic problem is that there are a whole category of books on gender. GirlGaf book recomendation has a good amount of the best of on those ... and they take PAGES describing what gender is and what it is not.

You will not find an answer you like written in a post on the internet....

"Gender Trouble: Feminism and the Subversion of Identity" by Judith Butler is a good start ... even if I disagree with some parts (is this one with the "gender performace" stuff, right ?)

Do we all agree that this is more of an issue with bathroom segregation than it is with sexism/inequality?
If there is a problem with how this has been handled, its because there isn't really a right answer given the way bathrooms work.

It is an issue of transphobia.

Someone is not recognizing the transgender person as the gender they identify.

Simple as that.

You can also say it is a question of objectifing a kid, like the Onion article, since all the school sees when they look at this kid is her genitals

You are correct. I hadn't really considered the effects of puberty but there's no denying its significance. With the elimination of gender roles, however, I would think "gender dysphoria" would become the more generalized "body dysmorphia". I mean, it would be a semantic distinction but it seems impossible to avoid semantics when talking about any issues regarding gender.

Also, by gender roles do you mean TOTAL equality within both genders .. like a total unique gender with same pronoums, dress code and everything.

Ironicaly, I forgot genitals ... but we can put it in the puberty since it is all hormonal (or non hormonal) effects on fetal stage .. so it is like a very early puberty xD

 

[SillyEskimo]

Well, can you perhaps expound on why? You've been given a number of reasons why it isn't a good solution, but remain unmoved; maybe you can help us understand your position.

With such an odd situation with so many different people, opinions, and feelings involved I think it's a pretty cut and dry solution. It's the closest to a compromise as is possible in this situation.

When the child has to go to the bathroom, use the neutral bathroom. Bam, done!

 

[Onemic]

ok, not sure what you are getting at. liking pink, or bright colours is just playing into stereotypes. has nothing to do with gender.

further responses should be directed to my personal inbox, as it is a bad idea for me to keep responding.

Something tells me you didn't even read that post.

 

[IMACOMPUTA]

I sometimes struggle with this transgender stuff.

But whatever. Who gives a fuck? If the kid looks like a girl and acts like a girl then let him/her use the girl's bathroom? Who gives a fuck? They have stalls anyway? Why are issues created when there is no big deal?

With that reasoning why are there separate bathrooms though?

 

[Devolution]

With that reasoning why are there separate bathrooms though?

Tradition.

 

[yeoz]

When the child has to go to the bathroom, use the neutral bathroom.

What happens when her female peers ask her why she isn't using the girls' bathroom, same as they are? Or when they ask why she has to use the nurse's bathroom, which they can't? Or when then ask why is she's allowed to do things they can't? Or why she's different in those ways? Why should she be subjected to that?

 

[Mumei]

With such an odd situation with so many different people, opinions, and feelings involved I think it's a pretty cut and dry solution. It's the closest to a compromise as is possible in this situation.

When the child has to go to the bathroom, use the neutral bathroom. Bam, done!

I think that having the child go to a separate bathroom actually serves to highlight her difference from the other (ostensibly cisgender) children and that the simplest thing to do is to allow her to go to the bathroom associated with the gender that she presents as. Why would we go with one of the options that most alienates her?

 

[HurricaneJesus]

Unfortunately, gender really is simply what you identify with. I'm sorry if that's not helpful, so let's try this: Gender is one's innate and private sense of where they are supposed to be in the range of physical/mental/behavioral characteristics between masculinity and femininity. It can (oddly enough) be distinct from gender roles, gender expression/presentation, and from your primary or secondary sex characteristics. That is, someone's gender identity doesn't necessary have to match their gender presentation or their sex characteristics.

Some examples, for instance, take your typical butch woman -- that is, a biological female (sex characteristics) who identifies as a woman (gender) but has masculine traits (gender expression). Or vice versa. Or, a trans woman -- biological male (sex characteristics), who identifies as a woman (gender), who can have a gender presentation distinct and separate from their sex and gender (such as an androgynous gender presentation).

Not sure if that helps, but I'm (and everyone else here) willing to answer any further questions you have (assuming we're all acting in good faith here). And, I definitely don't have all the answers yet, as I'm still figuring stuff out myself. But we can all learn together, right?

thank you, unfortunately you say 'identify as a woman /man' without defining what those terms mean. I told in the last thread, that it isn't what the typical stereotypes are. so what is it? to me, it is what genitals you are born with. that's it.

i must seem thick to some people here, but i really want to know. to me, and others, gender is a social construct. it is based on stereotypes. if it isn't, what is it, if not your genitals? the only other things i could see defining gender, are maternal and paternal instincts, but i do not know enough to say whether or not those are provable.

If you can't control yourself, you shouldn't expect someone to do it for you.

it is not an issue of self control, but rather, i do not wish to be seen as avoiding a point of contention. it is you that lacks the self control to stop responding to me.

 

[Brian Griffin]

What happens when her female peers ask her why she isn't using the girls' bathroom, same as they are? Or when they ask why she has to use the nurse's bathroom, which they can't? Or when then ask why is she's allowed to do things they can't? Or why she's different in those ways? Why should she be subjected to that?

It doesn't matter if she is made to feel different and singled out from all the other kids as long as the other kids' parents don't feel uncomfortable.

 

[HurricaneJesus]

You never responded to me and I wasn't even employing my usual snarkasm!

sent you a pm because you didn't ask anything, but i still felt that you deserved a response.

Why respond to actual trans individuals when you can pretend to speak for their experiences in complete contradiction to what they're saying.

looks like you spoke too soon.


oh, and as for the reading recommendations, i enjoy bell hooks and her(!) views on gender.

 

[Risette]

yes, it is wrong. last night at temple i sat with my trans friend, and they told me about their upcoming show. not that i should have to prove anything to you. I might as well leave the topic, because i have never before tried to have a discussion on an issue and been met with such hostility. no contrasting opinions allowed. got it.





I just don't think a child that young can make such a decision. it is obviously the parents influence at work here. let kids be kids. unfortunately, boys and girls have different body parts. even if i felt that i should have been born a girl, i would still understand why i need to use the boys restroom.



once last thing... why does the kid get dressed up as a super effeminate looking girl? stereotypically girlish clothes reinforce gender stereotypes. my partner has it ingrained in me that identifying things as being for boys or girls is wrong. i agree.

It doesn't really matter what you think. For someone interested in science and logic, you seem to be deliberately ignoring that this is not some social experiment or fad that needs justifying. It is an established medical, scientific fact that is gradually being expanded upon.

 

[SillyEskimo]

I think that having the child go to a separate bathroom actually serves to highlight her difference from the other (ostensibly cisgender) children and that the simplest thing to do is to allow her to go to the bathroom associated with the gender that she presents as. Why would we go with one of the options that most alienates her?

Because that child is not the only person involved in this. There are a plethora of other children and parents to take into account. A compromise must be reached. One side wants a boy's bathroom and the other a girl's. Solution? Neutral!

 

[SuperBonk]

Also, by gender roles do you mean TOTAL equality within both genders .. like a total unique gender with same pronoums, dress code and everything.

Ironicaly, I forgot genitals ... but we can put it in the puberty since it is all hormonal (or non hormonal) effects on fetal stage .. so it is like a very early puberty xD

Yeah, that sounds about right. I don't know what you mean by same dress code. I certainly wouldn't want everyone to have to wear a men's suit for example. But different styles of dress should be produced and marketed without the notion of gender.

As I've already stated, it's a radical proposition but I view it more of an "endgame" type of scenario instead of actually advocating for it.

 

[Devolution]

sent you a pm because you didn't ask anything, but i still felt that you deserved a response.




looks like you spoke too soon.


oh, and as for the reading recommendations, i enjoy bell hooks and her(!) views on gender.

Then you should know that trans people don't need your validation so much as your blessing. It's quite ignorant to tell them what's what.

 

[HurricaneJesus]

It doesn't really matter what you think. For someone interested in science and logic, you seem to be deliberately ignoring that this is not some social experiment or fad that needs justifying. It is an established medical, scientific fact that is gradually being expanded upon.

i do not have an issue with trans people. my issue in this case is with the age of the kid, and the image in the op.

 

[Mumei]

Because that child is not the only person involved in this. There are a plethora of other children and parents to take into account. A compromise must be reached. One side wants a boy's bathroom and the other a girl's. Solution? Neutral!

I don't think it is necessarily always true that two differing opinions means that the best option is something between those two. Sometimes one of those opinions is better supported, and sometimes there are values (e.g. an ethos of personal respect and dignity) that make what might appear to be a reasonable compromise to actually be unreasonable.

 

[SillyEskimo]

What happens when her female peers ask her why she isn't using the girls' bathroom, same as they are? Or when they ask why she has to use the nurse's bathroom, which they can't? Or when then ask why is she's allowed to do things they can't? Or why she's different in those ways? Why should she be subjected to that?

I think the child is already well aware of such things. You're not doing the child any favors. How long do you think parents can keep the wool pulled over a child's eyes over something like this? The kid knows. The parents know. The school knows. Hell, now hundreds of thousands of people know. There's no need to tred on eggshells.

 

[Devolution]

i do not have an issue with trans people. my issue in this case is with the age of the kid, and the image in the op.

Many of the transgenders I talk to wish they had these parents instead of people steadfastly denying what they were trying to tell them.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Because that child is not the only person involved in this. There are a plethora of other children and parents to take into account. A compromise must be reached. One side wants a boy's bathroom and the other a girl's. Solution? Neutral!

Yea but one side (boys bathroom) doesn't have a real reason why she can't use the girls besides they're uncomfortable.

I don't think it is necessarily always true that two differing opinions means that the best option is something between those two. Sometimes one of those opinions is better supported, and sometimes there are values (e.g. an ethos of personal respect and dignity) that make what might appear to be a reasonable compromise to actually be unreasonable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation

 

[HurricaneJesus]

Then you should know that trans people don't need your validation so much as your blessing. It's quite ignorant to tell them what's what.

dev, i haven't told anyone, anything, other than my views. i never said anyone was wrong.

 

[Devolution]

dev, i haven't told anyone, anything.

sounds like child abuse. someone said "it isn't like the kid is using the girls change room;showering with other girls". well what do you think is next?


I hold the opinion that kids this young are too young to know. I was very effeminate as a child, but that does not mean my parents should have pushed me to dress like a girl. let the kid be a kid. stop perpetuating differences between genders. it divides people, when in reality, there is no such division.


the issue is very complicated.

Uhuh.

 

[lexi]

I didn't get a PM from you, Hurricane. I'm glad you saw my post and although I didn't directly ask you a question, I hope you were able to learn something based on my experience of trying to deal with gender dysphoria.

 

[Brian Griffin]

thank you, unfortunately you say 'identify as a woman /man' without defining what those terms mean. I told in the last thread, that it isn't what the typical stereotypes are. so what is it? to me, it is what genitals you are born with. that's it.

i must seem thick to some people here, but i really want to know. to me, and others, gender is a social construct. it is based on stereotypes. if it isn't, what is it, if not your genitals? the only other things i could see defining gender, are maternal and paternal instincts, but i do not know enough to say whether or not those are provable.

I think you are looking for some deep philosophical definitions of gender or something which is beyond the scope of this story. I don't know necessarily what it means to be a "man" but I know I am one because I know I am. I think it's something everyone has to define for themselves and it something you just feel. It just is.

The girl in the OP says she is a girl so she is a girl, whatever that means to her. The fact that some say it's stereotypes, some say it's genitals, some say it's instincts, etc. tells me that it is all of those things or potentially none of those things depending on who you ask. The only person who can define someone's gender is the person themselves so you'd have to ask everyone what they are to get an idea of what it means to be a "man" or "woman" and unless you have asked literally everyone you will never have a complete definition.

 

[Risette]

i do not have an issue with trans people. my issue in this case is with the age of the kid, and the image in the op.

Gender dysphoria does not come with an Adults Only label -- there are specific guidelines for treating children.

You should stop having an issue -- because you're wrong.

 

[yeoz]

thank you, unfortunately you say 'identify as a woman /man' without defining what those terms mean. I told in the last thread, that it isn't what the typical stereotypes are. so what is it? to me, it is what genitals you are born with. that's it.

i must seem thick to some people here, but i really want to know. to me, and others, gender is a social construct. it is based on stereotypes. if it isn't, what is it, if not your genitals? the only other things i could see defining gender, are maternal and paternal instincts, but i do not know enough to say whether or not those are provable.

Well, the thing is, genitals aren't exactly in the picture, so to say, most of the time. They're discreetly hidden for the most part, right? You're not flailing your dick around in public, are you? No? Ok. So, what else is there? For definitions, "man" or "woman", are simply society's sets of the defining characteristics for people of that gender. "man" is one group of gender characteristics, and "woman" is another. And for sure, gender roles are social constructs, in that sense. You're suppose to act according to the gender role assigned to you. And, yeah, they are forcibly assigned at birth, based on your genitals. But, oddly enough, people can be born with genitals (or other sex characteristics) that don't match what they have in their head for themselves -- their identity.

It can be hard to grasp I guess, but, identity can be separate from your sex characteristics. As an aside, we all identify as humans right? What's our basis for that besides an innate one?

edit: pronouns and shit are hard

 

[HurricaneJesus]

I didn't get a PM from you, Hurricane. I'm glad you saw my post and although I didn't directly ask you a question, I hope you were able to learn something based on my experience of trying to deal with gender dysphoria.

strange. i said that i appreciate your input without resorting to attacks. i am posting from my tablet, which is also why my sentences aren't capitalized. guess it didn't go through.

 

[Brian Griffin]

Because that child is not the only person involved in this. There are a plethora of other children and parents to take into account. A compromise must be reached. One side wants a boy's bathroom and the other a girl's. Solution? Neutral!

One side wants blacks to use separate bathrooms. One side wants them to use the same bathrooms. Solution? Neutral!

Sorry, no.

Discrimination against people simply because they make others uncomfortable is not ok.

 

[IMACOMPUTA]

Well, the thing is, genitals aren't exactly in the picture, so to say, most of the time. They're discreetly hidden for the most part, right? You're not flailing your dick around in public, are you? No? Ok. So, what else is there? For definitions, "man" or "woman", are simply society's sets of the defining characteristics for people of that gender. "man" is one group of gender characteristics, and "woman" is another. And for sure, gender roles are social constructs, in that sense. You're suppose to act according to the gender role assigned to you. And, yeah, they are forcibly assigned at birth, based on your genitals. But, oddly enough, people can be born with genitals (or other sex characteristics) that don't match what they have in your head for themselves -- their identity.

It can be hard to grasp I guess, but, identity can be separate from your sexual characteristics. As an aside, we all identify as humans right? What's our basis for that besides an innate one?

Can I be a dog instead of a human!?

 

[lexi]

Can I be a dog instead of a human!?

But you're already a computa?

 

[Charoncaori]

ok, not sure what you are getting at. liking pink, or bright colours is just playing into stereotypes. has nothing to do with gender.

further responses should be directed to my personal inbox, as it is a bad idea for me to keep responding.

That was my point exactly. She likes bright colors because she likes them, not because she's a girl. They have nothing to do with each other.

And I do what I want! =P

 

[SillyEskimo]

I don't think it is necessarily always true that two differing opinions means that the best option is something between those two. Sometimes one of those opinions is better supported, and sometimes there are values (e.g. an ethos of personal respect and dignity) that make what might appear to be a reasonable compromise to actually be unreasonable.

In a vacume, sure. But this is in dirty, messy reality and therefore it seems both neccessary and appropriate given the available information.

If it is against the law, sue. If it isn't, and the parents feel it is against the child's best interest, do whatever it takes to better the situation for the child and your family. The parents still have lots of options, including changing schools, going to a private school, or home schooling. Those options greatly depend on how much the family is willing to work with their child's unique situation.

All that seems like a lot of work and disruption when the kid can just use a neutral bathroom!

 

[CrocMother]

I think the parents suing and the poor kid ending up a national news story is way worse for her than just having her use the nurse's bathroom.

 

[yeoz]

Can I be a dog instead of a human!?

The thing is, there's no biological basis for that. It can't happen, and there's no physiological way for that to happen. That's why those "I identify as a unicorn!" arguments are specious. There's speculation that trans people are the way they are because of hormonal causes during gestation, or that it's genetic/epigenetic in some way. But, there's no known cause that can make someone believe that they identify as a dog. (Well, barring a mental disorder of some kind -- which is provably not the case for trans people.)

 

[Devolution]

In a vacume, sure. But this is in dirty, messy reality and therefore it seems both neccessary and appropriate given the available information.

If it is against the law, sue. If it isn't, and the parents feel it is against the child's best interest, do whatever it takes to better the situation for the child and your family. The parents still have lots of options, including changing schools, going to a private school, or home schooling. Those options greatly depend on how much the family is willing to work with their child's unique situation.

All that seems like a lot of work and disruption when the kid can just use a neutral bathroom!

You don't fix discrimination against individuals by dehumanizing them or exclusion.

 

[Canuck76]

Another thing about this, do most transgender people, or people that consider themselves a man in a woman's body, or that sort of thing go to their "considered gender" bathrooms most of the time? Or just use their natural bathroom?

I don't avidly follow transgender issues but i've never heard of any transgender person having issues with this sort of thing. Obviously the kid is in 1st grade bit of a different story but this has never really been on my radar.

 

[HurricaneJesus]

Well, the thing is, genitals aren't exactly in the picture, so to say, most of the time. They're discreetly hidden for the most part, right? You're not flailing your dick around in public, are you? No? Ok. So, what else is there? For definitions, "man" or "woman", are simply society's sets of the defining characteristics for people of that gender. "man" is one group of gender characteristics, and "woman" is another. And for sure, gender roles are social constructs, in that sense. You're suppose to act according to the gender role assigned to you. And, yeah, they are forcibly assigned at birth, based on your genitals. But, oddly enough, people can be born with genitals (or other sex characteristics) that don't match what they have in your head for themselves -- their identity.

It can be hard to grasp I guess, but, identity can be separate from your sexual characteristics. As an aside, we all identify as humans right? What's our basis for that besides an innate one?

i don't get what that 'identity' is based on.


as for 'identifying as human', i don't see how you can equate that to the gender issue. we identify as human based on our physique. more specifically in my case, as evolved primates. primates with genders we can define based on physique.

 

[Deleted member 20920]

In a vacume, sure. But this is in dirty, messy reality and therefore it seems both neccessary and appropriate given the available information.

If it is against the law, sue. If it isn't, and the parents feel it is against the child's best interest, do whatever it takes to better the situation for the child and your family. The parents still have lots of options, including changing schools, going to a private school, or home schooling. Those options greatly depend on how much the family is willing to work with their child's unique situation.

All that seems like a lot of work and disruption when the kid can just use a neutral bathroom!

This sort of work and disruption is necessary for society to understand and change. The issue here is that people are uncomfortable because they don;t understand/choose not to understand. Some of these parents and perhaps their children are probably afraid of trans people. Why not use this chance to educate people?

 

[CrocMother]

Another thing about this, do most transgender people, or people that consider themselves a man in a woman's body, or that sort of thing go to their "considered gender" bathrooms most of the time? Or just use their natural bathroom?

I don't avidly follow transgender issues but i've never heard of any transgender person having issues with this sort of thing. Obviously the kid is in 1st grade bit of a different story but this has never really been on my radar.

In the case of trans-women unless they can 100% pass its better to use the men's room. Why? It's a matter of safety. Bubba might not take kindly to a trans woman using the bathroom with his wife.

I took a class with an older trans woman professor on trans gender issues and it was fascinating

 

[Charoncaori]

i don't get what that 'identity' is based on.


as for 'identifying as human', i don't see how you can equate that to the gender issue. we identify as human based on our physique. more specifically in my case, as evolved primates. primates with genders we can define based on physique.

Science hasn't really known the answer to this, but like I said some studies of the brain have shown that a big part of gender identity is based on differences in the human brain. As in, we have male brains and female brains. This partially explains why most boys, for example, are worse at language studies than girls at the same age. Because the areas of the boys' brains that are connected with language develop more slowly. This is also partially why boys are better at math (although a large part of that is also gender stereotypes).

So basically, this kid, who ended up with a male body, most likely has a female brain. Which makes her a girl. That's where the science is heading, at the moment. And since they can't fix her brain, the easiest thing to do is to fix her body to match it.