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[Zzoram]

Did 2 years as a marketing major in undergrad, switched to nutrition/dietetics and completed that degree with a minor in chemistry in 4 years. Conducted parasite research in a biochemistry laboratory along the way. Became a fellow in grad school this fall as a PhD in food science, but my research is 90% focused on biofuel production.

So, I did the "business to STEM" route instead of what seems to be the more common "STEM to business" route. The good news is, I learned a lot about business along the way, so now I'm feeling quite a bit better about my opportunities in the future; I'll either get a job in academics, or my back-up plan in industry, or my back-up back-up plan as an entrepreneur.

STEM is such a huge area that it's semi-dumb, in my eyes, to lump statistics within the field together. Getting a BS in chemical engineering is very different (in regards to curriculum, competition, job prospects, etc) than a BS in mathematics.

Engineering, physics, and chemistry at the higher levels are almost all math, and every type of research uses statistics, so it's a reasonable fit. Besides, everyone knows that math people have more in common with science people than history majors.

 

[LakeEarth]

They better not just make STEM classes easier.

I got a degree in biochemistry. My first year had a ton of drop outs. But is that really a big deal? Chemistry, Biology, Physics and Calculus are hard. Some people can't handle it. But I feel like that's a GOOD thing.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

Also I switched out of being a Biology major because I knew that the careers that I wanted to do in the field (Marine Bio, Ecologist, or Professor) were all extremely hard to get into, even after getting a doctorate and doing several postdocs. I didn't want to end up working in a lab or teaching at a random CC or uni that I didn't want to teach at.

 

[CornBurrito]

Does Psychology count as a STEM course? Wiki seems to say "yes" but...

 

[The Technomancer]

They better not just make STEM classes easier.

I'd love to have my first two semesters or so disregarded when people look at my GPA, but that's probably not going to happen...

 

[Zzoram]

Does Psychology count as a STEM course? Wiki seems to say "yes" but...

lol

Psychology is not really science at all but neuroscience is science, psychology isn't, as much as they may claim it to be.

Everything is way too subjective or unmeasurable in psychology. That's not to say it isn't an important field, it's just not science.

 

[LakeEarth]

I'd love to have my first two semesters or so disregarded when people look at my GPA, but that's probably not going to happen...

Same here. Take out my first year and my GPA skyrockets.

 

[Dennis]

lol

Psychology is not really science at all but neuroscience is science, psychology isn't, as much as they may claim it to be.

Everything is way too subjective or unmeasurable in psychology. That's not to say it isn't an important field, it's just not science.

QFT

 

[WARCOCK]

Isn't it true that they have not opened a new medical school in the united states in the past 100 years despite exponential increases in demand and population?

Now i'm not advocating for letting retards into MD, but it just sounds that the level of competitiveness is a little unnecessary.

 

[tokkun]

Are undergraduate science/math degrees particularly useful for employment? If they're more useful than business-related degrees, is their increased usefulness worth the increased difficulty?

My point is that the problem might lie with the job prospects for these degrees (engineering excepted). It doesn't surprise me that people who can't get into med school switch to non-science stuff, because what else are they going to do? Get a Master's/PhD and slave away as an underpaid lab assistant?

Math degrees are fairly useful as there are a lot of jobs that require statistical modeling. Most math degree programs also include some programming these days.

 

[FlyingTeacup]

The problem is that STEM fields are under appreciated and under compensated.

in london, a underground tube driver and a starting postdoc has the same pay scale, if you can find a postdoctoral in the 1st place. The driver union is strong and they can prevent you from going home from time to time. Don't think I ever come across a postdoctoral union.

and if you're a phd student, it's worse.

 

[SIRF]

lol

Psychology is not really science at all but neuroscience is science, psychology isn't, as much as they may claim it to be.

Everything is way too subjective or unmeasurable in psychology. That's not to say it isn't an important field, it's just not science.

Really now? Care to explain what you consider science and why exactly psychology is not a science? What is too subjective and unmeasurable in psychology exactly? I'd say the last 4 decades of scientific psychological research disagrees with you.

 

[zoku88]

Math degrees are fairly useful as there are a lot of jobs that require statistical modeling. Most math degree programs also include some programming these days.

I've heard that the biggest hirer of undergrad math degrees are the NSA and companies associated with Wall Street.

 

[Dennis]

Math and Physics degrees are great for future employment. At least if you get a halfway decent degree.

Much tougher with Life Science degrees. Except an MD which I assume is pretty much a guaranteed job.

 

[toxicgonzo]

I have a co-worker who did the opposite. She was majoring in art, but then switched to aeronautical engineering.

She does stand out as not being of the "engineering" type, but she's still good at what she does.

 

[Feep]

I completed my two undergraduate degrees in electrical and computer engineering, and then didn't really use them at all and made a video game.

Whatever, I had fun in college = D

 

[tokkun]

lol

Psychology is not really science at all but neuroscience is science, psychology isn't, as much as they may claim it to be.

Everything is way too subjective or unmeasurable in psychology. That's not to say it isn't an important field, it's just not science.

If it involves application of the scientific method, it's a science.

Things are not "subjective" or "unmeasurable". However research that involves human behavior tends to be subject to more confounding variables than, for example, a titration of silver nitrate. Moreover, legal restrictions on human subjects research makes it much more difficult to set up experiments.

I've heard that the biggest hirer of undergrad math degrees are the NSA and companies associated with Wall Street.

There was an article I read not too long ago in which the author was arguing that the biggest negative impact of the financial industry on society was that it sucked up so many STEM graduates.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

Does Psychology count as a STEM course? Wiki seems to say "yes" but...

I wouldn't say so...Psych is a social science through in through, until you get to the more neuro focused stuff, but that's just neuroscience which is biology. Most of the field is too subjective to be considered a STEM field.

 

[ivysaur12]

There are plenty of intelligent people who don't have a science-focused minds and major in areas outside of these fields.

And there's a level of hubris that a lot of science and engineering majors had about their majors compared to others. Just because I'm not a science major doesn't mean I didn't work as hard or bust my ass to get a good GPA, or that my GPA and work is less impressive than those with similar ones to myself because of my major. It's a little disappointing to hear those same stereotypes continued in this thread, but I guess with the territory of a gaming forum.

 

[Princess Carl]

Hey that's me too!

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

There are plenty of intelligent people who don't have a science-focused minds and major in areas outside of these fields.

And there's a level of hubris that a lot of science and engineering majors had about their majors compared to others. Just because I'm not a science major doesn't mean I didn't work as hard or bust my ass to get a good GPA, or that my GPA and work is less impressive than those with similar ones to myself because of my major. It's a little disappointing to hear those same stereotypes continued in this thread, but I guess with the territory of a gaming forum.

I think that comes from the fact that Science/Engineering/Math courses are much harder than other courses in college. A 3 or 4 credit liberal arts class requires about 1/5th of the work of any of my general or core major classes, which count for the same amount of credits.

Also, I have a friend who failed all of his engineering and math courses last year, and was thus put on academic probation, because he partied too much. He switched majors to business and now has A's in all of his courses. He still parties too much.

 

[zoku88]

There was an article I read not too long ago in which the author was arguing that the biggest negative impact of the financial industry on society was that it sucked up so many STEM graduates.

Actually, a lot of people I knew in CS went on to become traders -_-;;

I don't know of any EE people who did this though. I somehow didn't make many EE friends though (despite being an EE major...), but I wonder if it's more likely for more science people to work for wall street than it is for more engineering focused people...?

 

[tokkun]

or that my GPA and work is less impressive than those with similar ones to myself because of my major.

The OP actually presents some data that makes a fair argument that this is true. If the average GPA in Chemistry is more than half a grade point less than in English, then generally speaking achieving a high grade in Chemistry requires more success relative to your peers than in English.

 

[SIRF]

I wouldn't say so...Psych is a social science through in through, until you get to the more neuro focused stuff, but that's just neuroscience which is biology. Most of the field is too subjective to be considered a STEM field.

That's quite a broad brush your painting psychology with. There branches in psychology that fall squarely into natural sciences, such as psychophysics, behavior analysis and most of cognitive science and behavioral neuroscience (which falls under psychology and is not the same as neuroscience). I'll grant it that psychology still has it's bad apples that are too subjective and clinical practice still holds on to relics from the past (DSM) but psychology as a field shouldn't be dismissed as not a science all together based on the past.

As someone who does scientific research in psychology, it is quite frustrating having to constantly explain what scientific psychology is to people who typically have the idea that psychology is still largely Freudian or simply a field based around social surveys (not saying anyone here has said that, just venting )

 

[ivysaur12]

The OP actually presents some data that makes a fair argument that this is true. If the average GPA in Chemistry is more than half a grade point less than in English, then generally speaking achieving a high grade in Chemistry requires more success relative to your peers than in English.

I worked my ass off in college. 6-8 hours a day in the library, 6 days a week. I graduated with a 3.89, double majored in English and Poli Sci, magna cum laude, honors for my English thesis, Phi Beta Kappa. Please excuse me for getting pissed off when I see shit like this posted:

I think that comes from the fact that Science/Engineering/Math courses are much harder than other courses in college. A 3 or 4 credit liberal arts class requires about 1/5th of the work of any of my general or core major classes, which count for the same amount of credits.

Also, I have a friend who failed all of his engineering and math courses last year, and was thus put on academic probation, because he partied too much. He switched majors to business and now has A's in all of his courses. He still parties too much.

I don't have a science-based mind. I still took science courses and did well in them, it's just not my thing. I know people who are engineers who did poorly in even the easiest of liberal arts classes. Not being a science major should in no way diminish the amount that I worked. Yet for a lot of people who are science majors, it does. And that's really fucking annoying.

The stereotype that liberal arts majors don't work and that science majors are really the only people who are doing something with their education is insanely frustrating, especially for people who worked hard in those respective majors.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

This isn't difficult to understand why.

We have some of the worst public education in the developed world. However we have the best education in the developed world as well.

The obvious answer is that most students who go to college aren't ready for college classes, let alone hard sciences and math.

The college students in this thread know what I'm talking about. Its so common to have half your class getting less than a "C" in a 100 class.

 

[Elfforkusu]

There's nothing inherently strange about this. Only 40% bailing out actually seems low. If there's a problem with overall STEM graduates, it's that the pool the "60%" comes from is too small.

The gist is that science/engineering/etc are hard. Other degrees are not as difficult. People run into adversity and decide they can't do it, correctly or incorrectly.

I'll admit that primary education in this country is garbage, and that might be a large reason the percentage is as high as it is... e.g, "math? I liked HS math, I can major in math!" ... but the fact of the matter is, either you have the determination to learn the stuff or you don't.

 

[Feep]

I worked my ass off in college. 6-8 hours a day in the library, 6 days a week. I graduated with a 3.89, double majored in English and Poli Sci, magna cum laude, honors for my English thesis, Phi Beta Kappa. Please excuse me for getting pissed off when I see shit like this posted:

I don't have a science-based mind. I still took science courses and did well in them, it's just not my thing. I know people who are engineers who did poorly in even the easiest of liberal arts classes. Not being a science major should in no way diminish the amount that I worked. Yet for a lot of people who are science majors, it does. And that's really fucking annoying.

The stereotype that liberal arts majors don't work and that science majors are really the only people who are doing something with their education is insanely frustrating, especially for people who worked hard in those respective majors.

I would argue that STEM classes are still "harder", where "hardness" is defined by the number of people who can succeed in that class. I'm sure there are pretty convincing numbers in that sense.

However, merely from anecdotal experience, I did not have work as *hard* as many of my non-STEM peers. In engineering, there isn't really required reading, research papers, pop quizzes every day. Most of my classes consisted of a once-a-week-lab, a lab report, one homework assignment, and three tests throughout the semester.

Compared to my architecture friends and my business friends, for example, I was livin' the high-life. So all respect to you guys who busted your ass.

 

[Zzoram]

This isn't difficult to understand why.

We have some of the worst public education in the developed world. However we have the best education in the developed world as well.

The obvious answer is that most students who go to college aren't ready for college classes, let alone hard sciences and math.

The college students in this thread know what I'm talking about. Its so common to have half your class getting less than a "C" in a 100 class.

The US has some of the best colleges in the world, but that's really only due to their graduate programs, which are >50% filled with foreigners since so few Americans are able to handle the rigors of the best academic programs.

 

[Elfforkusu]

The US has some of the best colleges in the world, but that's really only due to their graduate programs, which are >50% filled with foreigners since so few Americans are able to handle the rigors of the best academic programs.

Bullshit!

Spoiler

I'd write more, but it doesn't merit more than that single word.

 

[Zzoram]

I worked my ass off in college. 6-8 hours a day in the library, 6 days a week. I graduated with a 3.89, double majored in English and Poli Sci, magna cum laude, honors for my English thesis, Phi Beta Kappa. Please excuse me for getting pissed off when I see shit like this posted:



I don't have a science-based mind. I still took science courses and did well in them, it's just not my thing. I know people who are engineers who did poorly in even the easiest of liberal arts classes. Not being a science major should in no way diminish the amount that I worked. Yet for a lot of people who are science majors, it does. And that's really fucking annoying.

The stereotype that liberal arts majors don't work and that science majors are really the only people who are doing something with their education is insanely frustrating, especially for people who worked hard in those respective majors.

I think high level anything is hard. However, the perception that social sciences are easier is because they are easier to coast in. Lots of people never do any work and coast by with a C- in social sciences, whereas you have to do more to get that C- in STEM.

 

[Zzoram]

Bullshit!

Spoiler

I'd write more, but it doesn't merit more than that single word.

I want to read more. How do you explain the fact that US graduate programs are jam packed with foreigners? MBAs and law degrees aside.

 

[ivysaur12]

I think high level anything is hard. However, the perception that social sciences are easier is because they are easier to coast in. Lots of people never do any work and coast by with a C- in social sciences, whereas you have to do more to get that C- in STEM.

That's a fair assessment, I think. There were plenty of people who coasted by in my English and Political Science classes with mid-to-high Cs.

People should not be faulted because they don't have science-focused minds. The stereotype about liberal arts majors is damaging to those students who would otherwise want to be liberal arts majors and go into that type of field.

 

[The Technomancer]

I think high level anything is hard. However, the perception that social sciences are easier is because they are easier to coast in. Lots of people never do any work and coast by with a C- in social sciences, whereas you have to do more to get that C- in STEM.

If I can pass junior and senior level lib-ed exams with As by basically just staying awake in lecture and studying for about an hour the night before, and get As on essays that take me approximately five hours to write, then I really want to know what people who are "just coasting" are doing.

 

[victreeb3l]

not all liberal arts classes are easy. being great at sciences and maths doesnt mean youll be great at everything else, and vice versa.

my older brother is a mathematical genius yet he struggles with writing a decent essay every single time. i usually proof read all of his work now and sometimes i wonder why its so hard for him since it feels like nothing to me.

funny enough, he used to feel the same way about me when i was struggling in calc, heh.

At least in Canada, the locally trained doctors are definitely not people who "get by". You typically need at least 3.8+ GPA and an 11/11/11/Q MCAT to get an interview, on top of extracurricular leadership experience done during full course load semesters. Around 4000 people will apply to 210 spots, maybe 550 get interviewed.

oh yeah absolutely, however im saying that you can get a high GPA with having not so stellar grades in class since schools sometimes curve their grades. rather, a 4.0 doesnt necessarily mean they got 100s in all of their exams.

then again, only about half of my pre med friends made it to med school, and they were all 3.8+ students. maybe the system works? *shrug*

 

[Zzoram]

That's a fair assessment, I think. There were plenty of people who coasted by in my English and Political Science classes with mid-to-high Cs.

People should not be faulted because they don't have science-focused minds. The stereotype about liberal arts majors is damaging to those students who would otherwise want to be liberal arts majors and go into that type of field.

The problem is that fields are judged by their graduates, and those graduates are not judged by their GPAs since nobody sees that. If liberal arts has a lot more people coasting through a degree, it has proportionally more dead weight making the whole field look bad.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

Bullshit!

Spoiler

I'd write more, but it doesn't merit more than that single word.

There's nothing "bullshit" about what he said.

The US has some of the best colleges in the world, but that's really only due to their graduate programs, which are >50% filled with foreigners since so few Americans are able to handle the rigors of the best academic programs.

Correct.

If I can pass junior and senior level lib-ed exams with As by basically just staying awake in lecture and studying for about an hour the night before, and get As on essays that take me approximately five hours to write, then I really want to know what people who are "just coasting" are doing.

Smoke weed all day ever day and do the homework an hour before its due.

Spoiler

I'm not joking.

 

[CornBurrito]

lol

Psychology is not really science at all but neuroscience is science, psychology isn't, as much as they may claim it to be.

Everything is way too subjective or unmeasurable in psychology. That's not to say it isn't an important field, it's just not science.

What about neuropsychology and biopsychology?

 

[Elfforkusu]

I want to read more. How do you explain the fact that US graduate programs are jam packed with foreigners? MBAs and law degrees aside.

Speaking from personal experience (I majored in CS at UIUC):

There's little incentive to stay. Personally, I had my degree, and it wasn't clear what the point of "more school" was.

1) I was not convinced it would've been worth it from a learning perspective. This was the biggest thing. What's the point, when I can probably learn more while also getting paid?
2) getting paid. I was already dealing with significant student loan debt, like everyone else. Why put myself under more, when I could work?
3) school exhaustion. After 16 years of school, 12 years of which were mostly garbage busywork (hooray US primary education!) ... it was enough.
4) The endgame. What would I do with a masters? Teach? I didn't really have an interest in that.

I didn't do a survey, but I got a similar sentiment from my peers, the vast majority of whom went into the workforce as well. Money is the biggest thing. Those that went for post-graduate stuff seemed to have aspirations to be professors/etc.

I did actually consider going for a Masters, but not in CS... it would've been in Nuclear Engineering instead. Mostly because the stuff I was interested in NE for (fusion) is all still on the research side.

 

[ivysaur12]

If I can pass junior and senior level lib-ed exams with As by basically just staying awake in lecture and studying for about an hour the night before, and get As on essays that take me approximately five hours to write, then I really want to know what people who are "just coasting" are doing.

Congratulations, you're smarter than every single liberal arts major ever. I bow to your science-based intellectual superiority.

 

[The Technomancer]

Congratulations, you're smarter than every single liberal arts major ever. I bow to your science-based intellectual superiority.

I don't buy it. I'm not that smart. Maybe its just the programs at my university, maybe its just the classes I'm taking, but I cannot believe that this is supposed to be considered difficult curriculum.

At this point I'm going to go with "different schools have different rigors" because I really don't doubt that you worked your ass off for your degree.

 

[Zzoram]

What about neuropsychology and biopsychology?

The Neuro and Bio likely mean that what you're talking about fits in the Neuroscience category, which is basically Biology of the brain.

 

[Bluth]

I want to read more. How do you explain the fact that US graduate programs are jam packed with foreigners? MBAs and law degrees aside.

Maybe because these schools are great so they attract students from other countries who's undergraduate studies aren't up to par? For most Americans an undergraduate education at these schools is enough for them.

 

[tokkun]

I want to read more. How do you explain the fact that US graduate programs are jam packed with foreigners? MBAs and law degrees aside.

There are many reasons, but here are what I would consider to be the top 3:

1. US students have better opportunities to make a good living with a Bachelor's degree in their own country than do students from Asia. Getting an MS/PhD in a STEM field is also a much easier (though not necessarily easy) path to living in the US via an H1B VISA.

2. The US has many world-class STEM graduate programs. Why be surprised that they attract students from other countries? Some of those countries also have larger populations than the US.

3. The social value of getting a graduate degree is higher in some other countries.

 

[ivysaur12]

I don't buy it. I'm not that smart. Maybe its just the programs at my university, maybe its just the classes I'm taking, but I cannot believe that this is supposed to be considered difficult curriculum.

I took a semester of 20th Century African-American lit, Romanticism from the French and British perspectives, a course exclusively on Jane Austen and the 18th century ideas of "sense," "sensibility," and the sentimental period (hazing for English majors), the anti-canon American literature from a minority perspective, and Medieval Drama.

No, it was not easy.

At this point I'm going to go with "different schools have different rigors" because I really don't doubt that you worked your ass off for your degree.

That's also fair. Our English major was by far our largest and most prestigious non-science and engineering major, which is what drew me the university. I'm sure it's much different at other schools, even though we also had a large amount of "coasters."

 

[Zzoram]

There are many reasons, but here are what I would consider to be the top 3:

1. US students have better opportunities to make a good living with a Bachelor's degree in their own country than do students from Asia. Getting an MS/PhD in a STEM field is also a much easier (though not necessarily easy) path to living in the US via an H1B VISA.

2. The US has many world-class STEM graduate programs. Why be surprised that they attract students from other countries? Some of those countries also have larger populations than the US.

3. The social value of getting a graduate degree is higher in some other countries.

Some good points. That's the kind of thing I come into these threads looking for.

 

[tokkun]

I don't buy it. I'm not that smart. Maybe its just the programs at my university, maybe its just the classes I'm taking, but I cannot believe that this is supposed to be considered difficult curriculum.

At this point I'm going to go with "different schools have different rigors" because I really don't doubt that you worked your ass off for your degree.

It's worth keeping in mind that the amount of work a student has to do to succeed in a class is also dependent on that student's own aptitude and existing skill set.

I had to work a lot for my engineering degree, but still much less than many of my peers did. I'm sure that if I had changed my major to Musical Performance I would have probably had to work more than my peers.

About the only thing I can objectively say is that my degree program had a much higher required total credit load (~130) with fewer electives than other majors.

 

[Sealda]

Of all my courses in chemical engineering so far, Organic chemistry have been the easiest:S...

Heck, even General Chemistry is harder.

 

[Al-ibn Kermit]

^O-chem is just concepts and syntax, you get your basics down on how electrons of each functional group behaves and you'll understand everything after that.

General chem was just jumping around on a million random topics without really understanding them too deeply.

I'm in Biochemistry right now and it feels closer to general chem than organic. It's like every bit of information is a piece of a Rube-Goldberg machine, individually it makes no sense how it works but when you integrate all the parts together from A-Z then you can understand what is happening.

I worked my ass off in college. 6-8 hours a day in the library, 6 days a week. I graduated with a 3.89, double majored in English and Poli Sci, magna cum laude, honors for my English thesis, Phi Beta Kappa. Please excuse me for getting pissed off when I see shit like this posted:



I don't have a science-based mind. I still took science courses and did well in them, it's just not my thing. I know people who are engineers who did poorly in even the easiest of liberal arts classes. Not being a science major should in no way diminish the amount that I worked. Yet for a lot of people who are science majors, it does. And that's really fucking annoying.

The stereotype that liberal arts majors don't work and that science majors are really the only people who are doing something with their education is insanely frustrating, especially for people who worked hard in those respective majors.

IIRC, aren't you getting your PhD in Anthropology right now? It's fair to say that you are probably more competitive and passionate about the material you studied than most of the other people who were English/Poli Sci majors.

This article is talking about the average STEM major vs the average liberal arts major, a lot of people went into my early chemistry and biology classes with dreams of becoming a highly paid doctor or engineer. The majority will wash out, I've seen it and everybody else that's gotten up to the upper division classes has seen it, you just get used to class sizes becoming 30%-50% smaller by the end of the quarter.

The problem here is that either the liberal arts classes are too easy to coast by with a passing grade or that high school does not prepare students for understanding how to study science. I think it's little of both.

 

[Codeblue]

Not surprising at all. Most of the health fields have crazy competition at the top, so this is good for pre-health students at least.

Edit: I went from a 60 person Organic class to a 9 person instrumental chemistry class in two years. Same thing when I worked in organic lab and saw numbers get cut in half between the first and second section.