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[Marcel]

They basically have that already with infusion and the Eververse/Bright Engrams. They had way more Eververse gear in D1 but I'm sure they'll be adding some soon. I expect some Halloween gear.

In my experience rare vanity gear that shows you did some work to get it is a satisfying compromise for most people in actual MMORPGs. Maybe Destiny can add clan housing one day as a boon to hardcore players, lol.

 

[Feorax]

Yeah as much as I loved Taken King it took them till the end of D1 to have EVERYTHING available all at once again...

And I think by then most of the old weapons were outclassed anyways?

There has to be a better way to do this that finds some middle ground

I actually think they had this nailed at the end of both y1 and y3, which is why I'm so disappointed they took such a backwards step in D2.

There was a quote attributed to just before D1 launched where they talked about weapons having a story, how they would come with you on your journey and would define you as a player, how you could find your favorite and stick with it through your journey if that's what you wanted.

This one was mine;

Dropped for me on my first ever raid run and I fell in love with it. I got my first Ice Breaker on that run too (I was very lucky), but that gun was almost always in my primary weapon slot. It wasn't the best gun from that raid, most would say that honor went to Fatebringer, but VOC fit my playstyle perfectly. It was everything I could want in a gun, and it defined my approaches to every situation.

It was one of the many casualties at the end of Y1, and even then it had been unusable for most of Y1 because it's light level refused to be upped once TDB came out, but it stayed in my vault right the way through. It should have been part of many more stories than it was allowed to be, a fate shared by the Vex Mythoclast, the aforementioned Fatebringer, Ice Breaker and many more. All because Bungie were so worried about upsetting the balance.

I think my point is that Bungie rightly identified a problem, but came up with a solution that left us where we are now. A real sliding doors moment if you will. People who didn't have a Gjallarhorn, or an Ice Breaker rightly felt like they were missing out, especially when LFG groups started requiring these so that raids and nightfalls could be on farm, but the solution at that point should have been "lets make loads of mad exotics so there are loads of amazing ways Guardians can kick the shit out of the darkness!" Instead, Bungie decided "lets just tone waaaay back all the legendaries and exotics so the perks are subtle and perfectly balanced".

The solution was right there, they even implemented it when they brought back the Y1 raid weapons as exotics; "Here's a load of crazy weapons that do amazing damage and are loads of fun to play with. You can only use one at a time. Pick one, make it yours."

The solution should NEVER have been "lets just take all the fun stuff away so everyone is doing exactly the same thing all the time", what kind of dynamic world is that to create? I'd probably spend an hour up the top of the church with an Ice Breaker just sniping shit if I could, or pull Gjallarhorn trick shots by using the homing to arc the rocket across the sky into a crown of Cabal.

Instead, my MIDA will probably stay in my exotic slot forever. You know, because I like scout rifles and the radar staying on is a decent perk. How exciting...

 

[NullPointer]

Has Bungie ever considered the idea of a WoW-like transmog system or more fleshed out glamour/vanity rewards? That seems like a way of giving hardcore players something to work toward while not compromising the experience for everyone else.

That could have a negative impact on the PvP if you can determine a player's capabilities/perks by seeing what they have equipped.

I have no interest in PvP myself, but I could see that argument raised.

 

[Marcel]

That could have a negative impact on the PvP if you can determine a player's capabilities/perks by seeing what they have equipped.

I have no interest in PvP myself, but I could see that argument raised.

We feel similar about PvP it seems. I talked about this earlier but I think it should be less connected to the real draw of Destiny which is the PvE content. It's been an albatross around the neck of Destiny since Year 1 honestly.

 

[Raven117]

The early perception of the raid was indeed overreacting mostly.

.

You can set your watch to it. It is all part of the cycle.

 

[VincentMatts]

At this point, Bungie should be punished for their mess. Why the fuck should we tolerate waiting for DLC for the game to get better?

Seriously, I even resent the thought of playing D2 now :/

God-fucking-dammit, Bungie. I just wanted Destiny 2 to be that game where I can dedicate endless hours of gameplay into it. Why did you have to mess it up?

They dont care because they know youll buy the DLC

 

[Bold One]

I'm wondering why people aren't just playing for the fun of playing.

 

[MugiwaraCole]

I have a hard time taking a critique of the game seriously if it's asking for randomized RNG rolls to put put back in the game.

No.

If you're upset about the number of guns or the perks on those guns, we should tell Bungie we want more weapons with better perks.

Saying Destiny 1 "could have literally 182,000 variants of the same gun" is such nonsense when most people would be trying to get a specific "God roll." It's the same weapon with a ton of crappy rolls and some great ones. That isn't additional content. It isn't a "reason" to keep playing. It's manufactured grind to keep people playing.

I want better guns and armor in Destiny 2. I want it to look cooler (because a lot of the legendary sets are lame) and I want them to have better perks. Special perks on Raid armor should come back, for example.

But I never want random RNG rolls again.

Destiny 2 has a number of issues. But I can't stand people who already have 100+ hours complaining about content. That's just not what the game is. Put it down. Go play something else. Iron Banner is this week, probably a Halloween event at the end of the month.

Then take November off. Go play Mario Odyssey or Wolfenstein. Then come back in December for the expansion.

.

 

[BlakeofT]

What's the intent behind posting Total D1 Playtime over the course of 3 years and then posting total D2 Playtime over the course of 34~ish days?

I'd like to also add that if you've played a game more than 100 hours in a month, then you probably had a lot of fun and it was worth the money. Too many excellent games pouring out these days to play something that much without liking it a lot.

 

[Mezoly]

Destiny 2 is a great game for the 99%.

With that being said, they need to fix a few things, imo:

1) Strikes are worthless
2) There needs to be a join back in for Trials. They could do checks and balancing to make sure the person joining was the one originally supposed to join.
3) Iron Banner isn't rewarding at all, not to mention all of the guns aren't good.
4) Quality of Life improvements, especially with Mods and shaders in regards to inventory management.
5) PL is worthless now that Trials/IB doesn't care about them.

Overall, a fantastic game that I can pick up and play whenever and not be left behind. I wasn't able to play much the first couple of weeks and the clan engrams helped A TON.

Yup I'm part of the group that loves it and I agree with the list of things that need fixes you suggested.

 

[VincentMatts]

I'm wondering why people aren't just playing for the fun of playing.

(I'm saying this as I'm going back to D1 to have fun btw.)

Well i mean they designed the game to be played a lot. If you design a game that way, the game should also have enough content. It common sense.

Going through the game the first time was great, but once youre at a certain level a lot of the game then becomes useless, like loot caves, adventure missions, challenges, etc. only thing worth doing are the milestones, nightfall and raid. And even then, thats if youre not 305.

Literally all the content in this game becomes useless after hitting max level. Its like D1 all over again. have they been sleeping throughout all of D1?

I really hope That Bioware game comes along and puts destiny to shame. Its what bungie deserves.

 

[Future PhaZe]

I've been revisiting the first game with a fresh character and there is really very little about it that feels like taking on a "second job". In fact Year 2 and 3 provided far more meaningful micro-goals to pursue than what Year 4 has delivered. Far greater variety too.

Completionists can -certainly- have enough on their plate to have it dominate their time if they wish(D1), but its hardly necessary or by design at all. In my scant few hours a week of check-in play, my progression curve never feels soft or a hindrance to experiencing weekend stuff like the Vault of Glass(which I was ready for surprisingly quickly). So the premise seems very flawed and misleading in my experience.

eh

end game took work to keep up with in D1

 

[Bold One]

What's the intent behind posting Total D1 Playtime over the course of 3 years and then posting total D2 Playtime over the course of 34~ish days?

That is a very good question.

I assume its another way to throw one's toys out the pram on a forum.

To the 'I am done!' crowd, relax, yes, there are changes required but they won't happen in4 weeks.

 

[cLOUDo]

the faction need a level system, right now i dont care about this

 

[Rexatality]

They dont care because they know youll buy the DLC

Then they should do everyone a favor and get closed.

 

[Trakan]

I have a hard time taking a critique of the game seriously if it's asking for randomized RNG rolls to put put back in the game.

No.

If you're upset about the number of guns or the perks on those guns, we should tell Bungie we want more weapons with better perks.

Saying Destiny 1 "could have literally 182,000 variants of the same gun" is such nonsense when most people would be trying to get a specific "God roll." It's the same weapon with a ton of crappy rolls and some great ones. That isn't additional content. It isn't a "reason" to keep playing. It's manufactured grind to keep people playing.

I want better guns and armor in Destiny 2. I want it to look cooler (because a lot of the legendary sets are lame) and I want them to have better perks. Special perks on Raid armor should come back, for example.

But I never want random RNG rolls again.

Destiny 2 has a number of issues. But I can't stand people who already have 100+ hours complaining about content. That's just not what the game is. Put it down. Go play something else. Iron Banner is this week, probably a Halloween event at the end of the month.

Then take November off. Go play Mario Odyssey or Wolfenstein. Then come back in December for the expansion.

I'm not sure why you're having a hard time. If you didn't get the godroll in D1, you could have got something with triple tap and firefly. You could have got something with full auto and max stability. Now, you get crap every time. A terrible roll in D1 is a standard static roll in D2. You basically have your most hated part about D1's system as standard in D2. At least in D1 you had the opportunity to get an improved version of a weapon. Now you don't.

It's fucking sad that the best scout in the game is one with explosive rounds. That's it. That's the best scout in the game.

 

[The ๖ۜBronx]

What I want to know is since when did casuals care about the meta or god rolls anyway? None were needed for any part of the game, even in crucible the issues were often less to do with an RNG roll and more to do with a static-perk exotic (Suros, TLW, Hawkmoon, Thorn among others). Shotgun rolls were exacerbated by special ammo and map designs (and let's not pretend there aren't shotguns in D2 with insane range) as well before someone goes hunting for Felwinter's. Not that it's much of an argument, RNG rolls and absurd range on shotguns are two separate things. Hell even with snipers one of the most notorious ones in the game for revive-sniping (the LDR 5001) was a static roll from a vendor.

When did a casual player ever give a shit about not having the god roll of a gun, if they even knew such a thing existed in the first place?

.

Did you bother to read the suggested implementation in the OP, and what did you find disagreeable with it? It allows for users to work toward a 'god' (or any) roll outside of pure RNG, making the resulting weapon more of an accomplishment and more personal.

I'd take some reason to check the loot I've gained from a session past the icon/name of the gun (which, if purple, isn't even necessary) over what we have now.

 

[EL CUCO]

I'm not sure why you're having a hard time. If you didn't get the godroll in D1, you could have got something with triple tap and firefly. You could have got something with full auto and max stability. Now, you get crap every time. A terrible roll in D1 is a standard static roll in D2. You basically have your most hated part about D1's system as standard in D2. At least in D1 you had the opportunity to get an improved version of a weapon. Now you don't.

It's fucking sad that the best scout in the game is one with explosive rounds. That's it. That's the best scout in the game.

🗣Preach

 

[gatti-man]

Nah, we run though the entire raid in just over an hour these days.

Calus goes down in 15 mins. The early perception of the raid was indeed overreacting mostly.

The raid is great, Calus is fine.

Sorry disagree. The raid is fine as long as you have a well oiled and skilled group. Example my raid group does the raid in about 1-1 1/2 hours. We had one guy no show picked up a random off reddit. After 3 hours we didn't finish. The raid is unforgiving of even single mistakes.

The raid is also not fun. It's some dps and mechanics checks with textures. No wow or funny moments what so ever. It pales in comparison to all prior raids imho. This isn't over reacting this is my solid and aged opinion. Running the current raid is not fun.

It's definitely divisive – moreso than any before it it seems. For example it's probably second only to VoG for me in terms of my favourite raids. I find it pretty satisfying to run, and did so recently with a group which included someone new to raiding entirely, and three others who hadn't done the majority of the raid. Took a few hours as you would expect (the same would be true for many others in this instance) but at no point did we feel cheated. We enjoyed each section, perhaps Baths a little less so, and came out wanting to go back in.

Ofcourse I have fun being in a group of friends doing content in general. But yeah oryx,the sword, VOG and the disappearing platforms, the giant boss at the end with the crazy adds, Crotas moving ships section, the end with the ogres and sword bearer. The epic feelings of danger and tension throughout many sections. These are entirely missing from Leviathan. It feels like a joke.

 

[The ๖ۜBronx]

The raid is also not fun. It’s some dps and mechanics checks with textures. No wow or funny moments what so ever. It pales in comparison to all prior raids imho. This isn’t over reacting this is my solid and aged opinion. Running the current raid is not fun.

It's definitely divisive – moreso than any before it it seems. For example it's probably second only to VoG for me in terms of my favourite raids. I find it pretty satisfying to run, and did so recently with a group which included someone new to raiding entirely, and three others who hadn't done the majority of the raid. Took a few hours as you would expect (the same would be true for many others in this instance) but at no point did we feel cheated. We enjoyed each section, perhaps Baths a little less so, and came out wanting to go back in.

 

[hank_tree]

In my experience rare vanity gear that shows you did some work to get it is a satisfying compromise for most people in actual MMORPGs. Maybe Destiny can add clan housing one day as a boon to hardcore players, lol.

They definitely had that in Destiny 1 too. Get your rep up to 25 with a faction and get an exotic class item. Each strike had it's own unique gear that was a very low drop chance etc. That stuff is lacking in D2 but I'm sure it'll get added soon.

 

[CrazyHal]

I personally prefer the approach of Destiny 2 instead of the heavy RNG way of the first game. This strikes me has a case of hardcore fans having trouble accepting changes.

 

[gatti-man]

I personally prefer the approach of Destiny 2 instead of the heavy RNG way of the first game. This strikes me has a case of hardcore fans having trouble accepting changes.

This outlook is like saying im glad they took variety away from the hardcore. You can have both casual and hardcore gameplay loops. Their existence doesn’t hurt casuals.

 

[Jest Chillin]

This outlook is like saying im glad they took variety away from the hardcore. You can have both casual and hardcore gameplay loops. Their existence doesn’t hurt casuals.

Casual and Hardcore in the context of this discussion really only means time devotion. There are many "Casual" players who still want to and can perform at the highest levels of execution. These players are put at a disadvantage when tangible benefits are bestowed only upon those who can or are willing to put in copious amounts of time into the game.

I.E. people who grind 6, 8, or 10 hours a day on strikes to get that Godroll gun which allows them to outperform someone who doesn't have it.

And for as many people suggesting passive grind for cosmetics would be acceptable, there are just as many people saying things like the Prestige Raid is worthless because it doesn't increase light level and only awards a cosmetic difference. These types will not be satisfied with a "hardcore loop" that doesn't give them additional power or performance.

 

[TyrantII]

If your argument is go play something else, that's a pretty bad argument. Try again.

I and legion of Destiny fans might oblige, stay away from the dlc since our opinions don't matter, and twiddle our thumbs when Destiny 3 isn't announced for lack of dlc / player base.

Destiny 1 wasn't a 40-60 hour game that you played and put down. I highly doubt Bungie wants D2 to follow a more traditional game path and see the player base halfed between content releases and barely rebound with DLC.

I.E. people who grind 6, 8, or 10 hours a day on strikes to get that Godroll gun which allows them to outperform someone who doesn't have it.

God rolls guns never made god roll players. Ever. One or two more perks won't give an edge to 99.9% of the playerbase in any real world match.

Elite players might get that extra edge against each other. Maybe.

 

[Jest Chillin]

God rolls guns never made god roll players. Ever. One or two more perks won't give an edge to 99.9% of the playerbase in any real world match.

Elite players might get that extra edge against each other. Maybe.

I didn't say they made god roll players. And it doesn't just apply to Elite. It applies to everyone who matches against someone of equal level to themselves. So yes, Elite v. Elite. But also Average v. Average and Beginner v. Beginner. All things being equal, Godroll gun wins v. Non-Godroll gun.

 

[Kadey]

I consider myself a casual despite all the time I put in. Because my mindset is to just jump into stuff and shoot crap. I vastly prefer PVP because that's what kept me going in D1 but everybody else has to eat too so I support those wanting more things to do. And wanting more things to do doesn't equate to grinding necessarily. People just love to put words into other people's mouths. Add back in grimore, trophies related to certain accomplishments, more of what makes the game good, etc.

 

[TyrantII]

I didn't say they made god roll players. And it doesn't just apply to Elite. It applies to everyone who matches against someone of equal level to themselves. So yes, Elite v. Elite. But also Average v. Average and Beginner v. Beginner. All things being equal, Godroll gun wins v. Non-Godroll gun.

Nah. Not in Destiny.

 

[Bold One]

If your argument is go play something else, that's a pretty bad argument. Try again.

The argument is more, its okay to not have to play this game endlessly. D1 had paltry content compared to D2 but supplemented it with some pretty cynical RNG systems inside RNG systems people felt compelled to grind. For those who couldn't, D1 was a miserable experience and I sympathise with their desire not to go back to.

While some can't afford that grind, some can, there is probably a solution somewhere in there- wouldn't be great to meet in the middle?- the middle is a great place to be.


Saying that Destiny 3 won't exist because people couldn't play it for 1000s hours, however, is just...

 

[Niceguydan8]

The argument is more, its okay to not have to play this game endlessly. D1 had paltry content compared to D2 but supplemented it with some pretty cynical RNG systems inside RNG systems people felt compelled to grind. For those who couldn't, D1 was a miserable experience and I sympathise with their desire not to go back to.

While some can't afford that grind, some can, there is probably a solution somewhere in there- wouldn't be great to meet in the middle?- the middle is a great place to be.


Saying that Destiny 3 won't exist because people couldn't play it for 1000s hours, however, is just...

Somewhere in the middle that existed after 3 years worth of updates to the original game? I don't get all of the vanilla Destiny comparisons. They had a lot of solutions for the vanilla problems in their expansions and they threw out almost all of them.

I didn't say they made god roll players. And it doesn't just apply to Elite. It applies to everyone who matches against someone of equal level to themselves. So yes, Elite v. Elite. But also Average v. Average and Beginner v. Beginner. All things being equal, Godroll gun wins v. Non-Godroll gun.

Which would only matter in cases where players see each other at almost the exact same time, have no outside interference, and are of equal skill. Anytime one of those does not ring true, the God roll doesn't actually matter a whole lot. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I'm saying that it's likely that in most cases outside the top tiers of players, other factors probably played a bigger role in success compared to having a God rolled gun.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Which would only matter in cases where players see each other at almost the exact same time, have no outside interference, and are of equal skill. Anytime one of those does not ring true, the God roll doesn't actually matter a whole lot. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I'm saying that it's likely that in most cases outside the top tiers of players, other factors probably played a bigger role in success compared to having a God rolled gun.

The existence of other factors doesn't preclude it from being a problem. If a Strike or Raid boss was overtuned it's a problem even if the game is so laggy that you wouldn't have a chance to beat it anyways.

 

[Niceguydan8]

The existence of other factors doesn't preclude it from being a problem. If a Strike or Raid boss was overtuned it's a problem even if the game is so laggy that you wouldn't have a chance to beat it anyways.

I never said it wasn't problematic. What I'm mostly doing is suggesting that the impact of God rolls is probably overstated by most people. I actually thought that was fairly clear in the portion that you quoted.

 

[Jest Chillin]

I never said it was problematic. What I'm mostly doing is suggesting that the impact of God rolls is probably overstated by most people. I actually thought that was fairly clear in the portion that you quoted.

I know what you're saying. I'm disagreeing because anyone who wants to compete seriously wants fair ground with which to do so. The specific number of times the god roll primarily influences the outcome isn't the point. It shouldn't in the first place.

It also underplays exactly how often Godroll's were a major determining factor in gun fights. Shortgaze added massive aim assist to snipers meaning less time and accuracy was needed to hit the head shot. High Caliber Rounds causes flinch bad enough that you could actually be noticeably behind in terms of who shot first but recover and win. Luck in the Chamber could turn a 3-shot kill into 2-shot. 2-shot into 1-shot.

Not every Godroll gun had these specific perks but these types of perks are what godroll's were comprised of. It was these types of things that combined even with seemingly benign perks/nodes that created tangible noticable difference in performance. If it was minuscule, people wouldn't care about the rolls.

 

[Llyrwenne]

Can we stop pretending God-Rolls are / were irrelevant somehow?

I never got a Grasp of Malok through regular play during The Taken King. I stopped playing for a while and came back when I heard people raving about it with specific perks and so I wanted to try it out. So I had to do the Omnigul Strike (after the kill-her-at-the-start-bug had been fixed) over and over and over again. And I got the Bond. And the Bond. And another Bond. And the Bond again. etc. Then when it finally dropped it had some of the worst possible perks on it. Yes, the base gun was still usable, but it did not have the perks that I wanted on it which meant I had to either give up and stick with what I had or continue grinding for a perfect drop. That is not a fun time in ANY way.

Now that might have been different for you, or for others, but RNG rolls were nothing but a bad experience for me and many others. You can't just up and dismiss that or constantly make this divide between 'casuals who don't care' and 'hardcore players who loved the grind'.

See also when shotguns ruled D1 Crucible and you were the one person in the match who didn't have a god-roll Matador. If you used another shotgun you were at a disadvantage. Yes you could make up that disadvantage through playing differently, but if you want to play with a shotgun and want to use the best one out there and you hear everyone raving about the Matador with range perks and everyone is killing you with it all the time but the Matador that drops for you drops with crap perks you have no interest in using, then THAT IS A TERRIBLE EXPERIENCE and most definitely not worth that one adrenaline burst when you get it after lots of grinding right before shotgun range perks get nerfed on the whole.

Full RNG perks as in D1 are a really really bad idea even with a grindy re-roll system. Some RNG element can be introduced and I agree that a bit more meaningful grind would be appreciated, but that should come through a new system not anything like D1's RNG perks (like every gun having a fixed signature perk with the barrel / sights / second perk being RNG mods on drop which you can swap out with mods you gathered yourself) and the addition of more loot in general and unique loot from strikes and more unique properties on for example Trials and Raid armor.

EDIT:

I'll also add that the weapon I ended up having the most fun with at the end of D1 was the Triple Tap / Firefly Hung Jury. The one you could buy straight from the vendor with fixed perks. I did not have to grind to get it to drop and then grind more to get it to drop better or to improve the one that dropped. No, you just bought it from Dead Orbit. If it had been an RNG drop with RNG perks, I likely would have never been able to find the Triple Tap / Firefly drop. Being able to get that gun with those specific perks from the vendor allowed me to just get and use an insanely fun and satisfying weapon without having to grind for days upon days worth of time. That took literally nothing away from my enjoyment of Destiny; it only added to it.

I hold the opinion that the problem with D2 loot isn't that it isn't RNG enough, it's that Bungie seems to be holding back massively with cool / unique perk combos for future DLC, that there is a lack of unique drops for Strikes and unique perks for Raid and Trials armor, that the current token system is too generous and too omnipresent, and that Xur / the Legendary Shard economy is completely broken.

 

[cilonen]

What's the intent behind posting Total D1 Playtime over the course of 3 years and then posting total D2 Playtime over the course of 34~ish days?

That is a very good question.

I assume its another way to throw one's toys out the pram on a forum.

To the 'I am done!' crowd, relax, yes, there are changes required but they won't happen in4 weeks.

It's a specific response to the poster asking about comparisons to their time in Warframe and whether they could expect similar in D2. The answer is no, they can't with the current state of D2.

 

[TsuWave]

Destiny 2 just isn't that good, really

hopefully someone somewhere notices that there's a gap in the market and that there's a substantial amount of people that want a game that's kinda like this but that isn't entirely balanced around "no lifers" or around "casuals" that "feel left behind" if someone that has put in more time and completed harder activities has better loot/weapons to show for it.

I feel like there's a middle ground somewhere in the sense that a game can make it easier for "casuals" to catch up and complete most/all activities in the game but i also don't think that should come at the expense of things that more dedicated players want to pursue.

Most "fun factor" things have been dialled back, large parts of the content are irrelevant, gear are just aesthetic shells, and I'm struggling to think of a single interesting exotic or legendary weapon in this game. Can't even check crucible medals these days. this game sucks.

 

[CSJ]

... there always felt a chance you'd get that really cool super rare weapon with stats that made it op as fuck and turned you into a badass.

This is the mindset I hate, they want to be better not by skill but by an external factor like a random chance, to have something better than someone, to best someone with something they put little effort in to other than trying "x" times more or less than someone.

To add insult to injury, they don't care if they randomly and luckily got it first time and the next person took 80 attempts, it's the "fuck you got mine" attitude that stinks.

Working longer and harder at something in a game 5 times, 10 times, 20 times or more to get the same thing someone attempted once is fucking bullshit and turns me off games. It's supposed to be fun, I play games to get away from real life random nonsense and being overworked for the same thing someone else did less of for the same reward.

That's me though, when a game starts end up being like a job, drop it.

 

[Rexatality]

Some of you don't get it, do you? No one forced you to grind the same weapon for godrolls. No told you to do it. And most importanty, No. one. Put. A. Fucking. Gun. In. Your. Head. And. Forced. You. To. Grind. Them

 

[CSJ]

Some of you don't get it, do you? No forced you to grind the same weapon for godrolls. No told you to do it. And most importanty, No. one. Put. A. Fucking. Gun. In. Your. Head. And. Forced. You. To. Grind. Them

So I'll just stop trying to be competitive and play a game that's balanced.
Wait....

 

[Niceguydan8]

I know what you're saying. I'm disagreeing because anyone who wants to compete seriously wants fair ground with which to do so. The specific number of times the god roll primarily influences the outcome isn't the point. It shouldn't in the first place.

It also underplays exactly how often Godroll's were a major determining factor in gun fights. Shortgaze added massive aim assist to snipers meaning less time and accuracy was needed to hit the head shot. High Caliber Rounds causes flinch bad enough that you could actually be noticeably behind in terms of who shot first but recover and win. Luck in the Chamber could turn a 3-shot kill into 2-shot. 2-shot into 1-shot.

Not every Godroll gun had these specific perks but these types of perks are what godroll's were comprised of. It was these types of things that combined even with seemingly benign perks/nodes that created tangible noticable difference in performance. If it was minuscule, people wouldn't care about the rolls.

Again, I'm not saying it's problematic. On a broad scale I'm saying that people here are probably overstating the impact to the average user. That does not mean I'm saying it's not a problem. I think it is a problem for PvP, but not PvE where min/maxing builds with RNG rolls/perks has been shown to work just fine in loot games.

Can we stop pretending God-Rolls are / were irrelevant somehow?


I hold the opinion that the problem with D2 loot isn't that it isn't RNG enough, it's that Bungie seems to be holding back massively with cool / unique perk combos for future DLC, that there is a lack of unique drops for Strikes and unique perks for Raid and Trials armor, that the current token system is too generous and too omnipresent, and that Xur / the Legendary Shard economy is completely broken.

I don't know if you're referring to my post or not, but don't conflate "It's probably overstated at most levels of play" with "God rolls are irrelevant."

I have always thought the balancing of the game for PvP has had a really negative impact on the weapon diversity and creativity. They are probably really hard to balance for PvP, so they just don't go that far. I don't want to believe that Bungie is incapable of making cool weapons, I think they definitely can. However, I think they may not be equipped to do so with such a focus on 1:1 balance in PvP and PvE, both inherently very different types of games.

 

[Llyrwenne]

I don't know if you're referring to my post or not, but don't conflate "It's probably overstated at most levels of play" with "God rolls are irrelevant."

More in response to a general sentiment of 'casuals don't care about rolls anyway' I feel some here and elsewhere are implying.

I have always thought the balancing of the game for PvP has had a really negative impact on the weapon diversity and creativity. They are probably really hard to balance for PvP, so they just don't go that far. I don't want to believe that Bungie is incapable of making cool weapons, I think they definitely can. However, I think they may not be equipped to do so with such a focus on 1:1 balance in PvP and PvE, both inherently very different types of games.

Agreed.

 

[gattsu]

I mean, I think the solution to this is to allow weapon mods to be weapon perks. If we could craft explosive rounds into different scouts, then people would use more than just nameless midnight in PvE, etc.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Again, I'm not saying it's problematic. On a broad scale I'm saying that people here are probably overstating the impact to the average user. That does not mean I'm saying it's not a problem. I think it is a problem for PvP, but not PvE where min/maxing builds with RNG rolls/perks has been shown to work just fine in loot games.

And I'm saying it's not overstating.

As for PvE, that depends on design intent. It's not a problem for games like Diablo, Torchlight, and Warframe, where the design is largely based around big waves of mobs that overwhelm by numbers. It is a problem where challenge is designed to be tightly scripted encounters with specific mechanics in place to overcome. Min/maxing into overpowered performance can trivialize challenge in the latter while it's intended and even necessary in the former.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

And I'm saying it's not overstating.

As for PvE, that depends on design intent. It's not a problem for games like Diablo, Torchlight, and Warframe, where the design is largely based around big waves of mobs that overwhelm by numbers. It is a problem where challenge is designed to be tightly scripted encounters with specific mechanics in place to overcome. Min/maxing into overpowered performance can trivialize challenge in the latter while it's intended and even necessary in the former.

Tbh, current Destiny 2 as I see it, trivializes challenge anyway. Combat encounters in all but the Raids and Nightfall Strikes are not even challenging in the slightest.

And even with the Raid and NF, challenge isn't overcome through individually playing better, rather merely playing with more people and coordinating better.

So in many ways I see D2's presented challenge as far similar to Diablo, with waves of shitty enemies, as opposed to tightly scripted encounters of clever AI enemies who force you to play better in order to progress.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Tbh, current Destiny 2 as I see it, trivializes challenge anyway. Combat encounters in all but the Raids and Nightfall Strikes are not even challenging in the slightest.

And even with the Raid and NF, challenge isn't overcome through individually playing better, rather merely playing with more people and coordinating better.

So in many ways I see D2's presented challenge as far similar to Diablo, with waves of shitty enemies, as opposed to tightly scripted encounters of clever AI enemies who force you to play better in order to progress.

That's pretty disingenuous response. Regardless of how easy you find D2 or not, that doesn't change the fact that the player challenge, in design, is to navigate a tightly scripted encounter that requires specific tasks be done at specific points in time in order to meet the bar of success. That's completely different from Diablo whose challenge in design is simply survive and do enough damage to the enemy.

The point that I made is that overpowered performance can result in the mechanics being circumvented rather than worked through as intended. The difference between something like a team going 4/2 split to stack skulls to enable them to 1 phase Calus... or a team just equipping Gjallerhorns and burning Atheon in seconds because the weapon is way overtuned.

 

[DrROBschiz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svfTBxdNDj0

Carrycakes coming in on the side of Fixed rolls

He make compelling arguments

I dunno... I still want at least some way to modify guns but I can totally see both sides of this debate

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

That's pretty disingenuous response. Regardless of how easy you find D2 or not, that doesn't change the fact that the player challenge, in design, is to navigate a tightly scripted encounter that requires specific tasks be done at specific points in time in order to meet the bar of success. That's completely different from Diablo whose challenge in design is simply survive and do enough damage to the enemy.

The point that I made is that overpowered performance can result in the mechanics being circumvented rather than worked through as intended. The difference between something like a team going 4/2 split to stack skulls to enable them to 1 phase Calus... or a team just equipping Gjallerhorns and burning Atheon in seconds because the weapon is way overtuned.

This is rather an extreme example, and given how Raids are pretty much endgame content anyway, there's no reason why gear can't be tuned to allow players to rekt shit in the normal game and strikes, and yet still see challenging endgame content.

It's not a case of either allow extremely overpowered weapons vs. perfect balance where everything is essentially the same. There's a whole spectrum in-between those two extremes, that I personally feel Bungie didn't even bother to try exploring in D2.

 

[sturgboski]

The lack of overarching goals and mini goals is a problem. Ships, sparrows, shaders, and emblems not being truly obtainable outside of bright engrams removes a lot of grind/excitement: I remember logging in on those days I would see the reddit post of "Amanda is selling rare ship XXX" or eva selling rare emblem/shader and would grind glimmer if need be just to build out the collection. Trying to obtain that T12 gear was another carrot. Lets even look at the random rolls: yes the grasp and fakebringer had notoriously low chance of that perfect roll, but you have the Y3 IB gear which limited perk rolls and had high chance of getting something viable let alone the god roll or even the KF raid weapons where the last perk was random.

Where is the solution for the "we want your 10th Better Devils to be exciting" that was discussed by Bungie? Why are there no raid perks on the armor and soon the weapons (ambitious assassin seems to be heading out to general weapons...at least its on the NM HC)? From the leaked prestige stuff it seems to be all the same except with a different innate shader.

I get playing for fun, but goals/mini goals contribute to that. Further, this game has moved so far away from the RPG-lite elements of the first game that it feels even more unrewarding. Like I used to sit and play the strike playlist or do patrols or hell court of oryx or the loot cave (both the original one and the one in RoI), but it was for a reason. What is the point of strikes now? To get gear under my power level and tokens to turn in to get gear under my power level? It's not even like the gear can randomly be some other thing (like instead of resilience it can be mobility) to even have that desire. I think I have only played the strikes to unlock nightfall on my characters and to get the cluster bomb RL...which I never used as I got the raid one before the raid boss.

 

[Jest Chillin]

This is rather an extreme example, and given how Raids are pretty much endgame content anyway, there's no reason why gear can't be tuned to allow players to rekt shit in the normal game and strikes, and yet still see challenging endgame content.

It's not a case of either allow extremely overpowered weapons vs. perfect balance where everything is essentially the same. There's a whole spectrum in-between those two extremes, that I personally feel Bungie didn't even bother to try exploring in D2.

Before you can experiment, there needs to be a solid base. If you don't ensure a solid base, you're far more likely to miss something game breaking or at the very least game trivializing. This is what happened to D1 in a nutshell. They didn't have as solid a base as they thought.. so things like Gjall and the Mythoclast happened. Entire classes of weapons ignored. Then the rotating cycle of balance passes before eventually it's discovered that the weapons system needs to be retooled from the ground up to have a chance at decent balance.

As for allowing players to be overpowered everywhere but Endgame... that creates an incongruous experience where players who attempt NF and the Raid would, quite suddenly, have a completely different experience than the one they had had thus far. It would be jarring.

There's also the fact that player taste on these types of things varies quite a bit. There are some who want the ultimate badass Guardian who demolishes everything in seconds. There are those who already complain that the game is too easy. There are those that say the regular NF's are too hard, let alone prestige. Likewise of the Raid.

No matter what happens, some segment of the population is going to be unhappy. So making sweeping changes that completely overhaul the game is just too drastic a move considering it won't result in uniform praise. Stick with the solid base and iterate from that if anything. D2 has a solid base. Now they just need to add more content. More items. More events. Get longevity from that rather than adding more time sinks.

 

[Niceguydan8]

Before you can experiment, there needs to be a solid base. If you don't ensure a solid base, you're far more likely to miss something game breaking or at the very least game trivializing. This is what happened to D1 in a nutshell. They didn't have as solid a base as they thought.. so things like Gjall and the Mythoclast happened. Entire classes of weapons ignored. Then the rotating cycle of balance passes before eventually it's discovered that the weapons system needs to be retooled from the ground up to have a chance at decent balance.

As for allowing players to be overpowered everywhere but Endgame... that creates an incongruous experience where players who attempt NF and the Raid would, quite suddenly, have a completely different experience than the one they had had thus far. It would be jarring.

There's also the fact that player taste on these types of things varies quite a bit. There are some who want the ultimate badass Guardian who demolishes everything in seconds. There are those who already complain that the game is too easy. There are those that say the regular NF's are too hard, let alone prestige. Likewise of the Raid.

No matter what happens, some segment of the population is going to be unhappy. So making sweeping changes that completely overhaul the game is just too drastic a move considering it won't result in uniform praise. Stick with the solid base and iterate from that if anything. D2 has a solid base. Now they just need to add more content. More items. More events. Get longevity from that rather than adding more time sinks.

-The end of Destiny 1 was a solid base. They literally threw most of that stuff out in favor of something else. That's okay, but the game was in a pretty okay spot by the end of Destiny 1's life cycle.

-My experience with the NF and Raid was already like that. The game was, at least to me, way too easy before the Nightfall and Raid and then it was challenging . I don't see it as "too easy vs. too hard," rather that the spike of new and difficult stuff just kinda comes out of left field. I'll contrast this with my experiences with the latest FFXIV expansion, that would introduce certain mechanics that would show up later during the campaign. Some of the raid mechanics were introduced in a dungeon. It was a much steadier build up to the difficult stuff, whereas I think Destiny 2 demands very little out of the player for the most part and then all of the sudden demands stuff out of the player. I think there is a better build up opportunity that frankly, I think they should be better at in this point of the series.

-This whole thread is about the sweeping changes you are talking about. There are people that felt that the game already had a solid base and made sweeping changes to an already solid formula.

-Also, I'm not sure why somebody would want an RPG where the progression feels entirely flat. If that's the case, just get rid of the RPG elements. Power level is basically useless, level in general is basically useless. I guess I just don't understand why the RPG systems even exist when they keep stripping them down so much. Just get rid of it all, make a Halo-esque game and at the very least we will know what we are getting before going in. It won't be some weird hybrid that does fantastically well as a shooter but has hollow shells of RPG systems.