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[yacobod]

Martin has written himself into another knot, this one should be called the I screwed up the central character of my book knot.

He can fix it by having Khal Jhogo and his khalasar kill Drogon, enslave Dany, and brutally rape and murder her over the course of 2 or 3 chapters. After those Reek chapters, you know GURM is in need of another outlet of his torture porn fantasies.

 

[duckroll]

He can fix it by having Khal Jhogo and his khalasar kill Drogon, enslave Dany, and brutally rape and murder her over the course of 2 or 3 chapters. After those Reek chapters, you know GURM is in need of another outlet of his torture porn fantasies.

Horse vs Dragon doesn't sound like much of a fight to me. The Dothraki don't even have effective long range weapons. Lulz.

 

[bengraven]

Another possibility I'm thinking is that Vic will arrive, destroy the fleets in the bay and join up with the city. Then he'll likely kill the king to make way for himself and basically enslave the city.

Then Dany shows up, maybe feigns interest, and then has him killed to finish off another contender for her hand.

 

[Clipjoint]

The only repetitive phrase that really bugged me was "He was not wrong" because he used it in every fucking chapter.

Otherwise, loved the book.

 

[duckroll]

The only repetitive phrase that really bugged me was "He was not wrong" because he used it in every fucking chapter.

Otherwise, loved the book.

Yes. This bothered me a lot. If a repetitive phrase is meant to show how a character cannot let go of a certain thought, it's not so bad. Here, it is a clear narrative phrase used by the writer himself to press a narrative point. He uses it over and over in every single goddamn chapter. It makes all the paragraphs which start with that feel the same. Really lazy writing. In fact, I remember one late Jon chapter (I think?) where the paragraph of this sort actually started with "He was right." and I had to re-read it a few times to make sure I wasn't imagining it. Lulz.

 

[LegendofJoe]

He can fix it by having Khal Jhogo and his khalasar kill Drogon, enslave Dany, and brutally rape and murder her over the course of 2 or 3 chapters. After those Reek chapters, you know GURM is in need of another outlet of his torture porn fantasies.

Sounds better than what we got in Dance. Personally if I were Martin I'd have Drogon killed and Dany beaten, battered, and shipped off to Vaes Dothrak.

 

[Clipjoint]

Yes. This bothered me a lot. If a repetitive phrase is meant to show how a character cannot let go of a certain thought, it's not so bad. Here, it is a clear narrative phrase used by the writer himself to press a narrative point. He uses it over and over in every single goddamn chapter. It makes all the paragraphs which start with that feel the same. Really lazy writing. In fact, I remember one late Jon chapter (I think?) where the paragraph of this sort actually started with "He was right." and I had to re-read it a few times to make sure I wasn't imagining it. Lulz.

I had the same reaction! I actually let out an audible celebration when he finally used "he was right."

 

[squicken]

Something I really enoyed was the end of Quentyn, as he was burning, and the internal narrative of "oh"

 

[bengraven]

Something I really enoyed was the end of Quentyn, as he was burning, and the internal narrative of "oh"

Didn't Pate in a similar way? GRRM worded out his last thought? I can't remember now.

 

[Fidelis Hodie]

Something I really enoyed was the end of Quentyn, as he was burning, and the internal narrative of "oh"

Yeah, me too. I didn't really see the Quentyn storyline as being a waste so much as taking it for what it was and showing how dangerous the dragons truly can be. In truth, the book really started hitting again in those last twenty chapters.

The only real complaint I have is that I have no idea when I'll get to read the next book.

 

[CrunchyB]

Didn't Pate in a similar way? GRRM worded out his last thought? I can't remember now.

I'm pretty sure it ended with (paraphrasing):

Pate loses control of his legs, stumbles and falls. "I don't understand"
"You never will", the alchemist told him, with a sad voice

 

[bengraven]

I'm pretty sure it ended with (paraphrasing):

Ah, okay, I was under the impression that "I don't understand" was voiced internally.



Also:

 

[Puddles]

I think it's obvious though that this was not GRRM's fault and the blame should rest with the publishers. He's said several times he wanted another 200 pages or whatever.

He should have done some of his famous "tightening" then. Most everyone agrees that you could cut half the early Tyrion chapters and several of the Dany chapters. And I think a lot of fans agree that having Dany run off to meet up with yet another khalasar is the last thing they want to see. GRRM will probably prove us all wrong by having this stupid bullshit lead into the most awesome story development ever, but that doesn't mean it isn't frustrating to read right now.

 

[elrechazado]

I see it more that she'll come back to Meereen and give no fucks anymore.

except she hasn't learned anything. Her entire inner monologue out on the plains is "gotta get back to my husband and my city, and away from this dragon". Totally shot any momentum from the "omg, kickass, she's riding the dragon and breaking out of this shithole storyline" vibe from the arena moment.

 

[yacobod]

except she hasn't learned anything.

ding, ding, ding. Even her saying if I look back, I'm lost is stupid. No you dumb bitch, if you look back you might learn something.

I guess what can you expect, she has an 11 year old girl who does her reading and writing for her.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

ding, ding, ding. Even her saying if I look back, I'm lost is stupid. No you dumb bitch, if you look back you might learn something.

I guess what can you expect, she has an 11 year old girl who does her reading and writing for her.

At this point in the story fucking Sansa is smarter than Dany.

 

[jett]

I think it's about time Dany returns to her home planet.

Spoiler

And die on the way home.

 

[LegendofJoe]

He should have done some of his famous "tightening" then. Most everyone agrees that you could cut half the early Tyrion chapters and several of the Dany chapters. And I think a lot of fans agree that having Dany run off to meet up with yet another khalasar is the last thing they want to see. GRRM will probably prove us all wrong by having this stupid bullshit lead into the most awesome story development ever, but that doesn't mean it isn't frustrating to read right now.

I'm certainly hoping for that, but at this point I don't expect it (with regards to Dany). The rest of the book was largely great in my opinion.

 

[yacobod]

I wonder what television viewers are going to think about Dany in S5 or S6 when she still hasn't invaded Westeros with her dragons (if the show makes it that far).

 

[Granger Danger]

I think it's about time Dany returns to her home planet.

Spoiler

And die on the way home.

I imagine the adventures of Dany in outer space would be a lot like Barbarella.

 

[bengraven]

I wonder what television viewers are going to think about Dany in S5 or S6 when she still hasn't invaded Westeros with her dragons (if the show makes it that far).

This show will be canceled before Dany steps foot in Westeros.



(i hope not)

 

[LegendofJoe]

I wonder what television viewers are going to think about Dany in S5 or S6 when she still hasn't invaded Westeros with her dragons (if the show makes it that far).

It'll be just like Lost. They'll take their helping of retarded BS and ask for another. Which is gleefully ironic when you consider the main writer of Lost was a big of Martin before he criticized the show's finale.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

The writers are really going to have to work some magic with AFFC/ADWD to turn them into good TV. Before I was just going to be happy if we made it through ASOS, now I must see AFFC/ADWD just to see if they can make something out of it.

 

[ZephyrFate]

except she hasn't learned anything. Her entire inner monologue out on the plains is "gotta get back to my husband and my city, and away from this dragon". Totally shot any momentum from the "omg, kickass, she's riding the dragon and breaking out of this shithole storyline" vibe from the arena moment.

I would say she has learned enough from Meereen to change her current situation, actually.

 

[LegendofJoe]

I came across an interesting theory when browsing Westeros. The theory is that there is someone living in the lower levels of the Stark crypts in Winterfell. And that someone is responsible for killing Little Walder because he is one of the few people there who could recognize him - that someone is Maester Luwin.

Edit: I think Luwin as the Ghost of Winterfell is an absolutely ridiculous idea, but there are multiple suggestions that lead me to think that someone is indeed living in the Stark crypts. Who that is I have no idea. Also, someone had to kill Little Walder.

 

[sazabirules]

I came across an interesting theory when browsing Westeros. The theory is that there is someone living in the lower levels of the Stark crypts in Winterfell. And that someone is responsible for killing Little Walder because he is one of the few people there who could recognize him - that someone is Maester Luwin.

Didn't Osha kill him?

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Didn't Osha kill him?

Yeah, he had a spear in his back or something. I love the TV version of him, but I'm pretty sure he's dead.

Maybe Big Walder killed Little Walder. Big Walder was the nicer of the two though...

 

[LegendofJoe]

Manderly certainly had the best motive, but I don't think it was him simply because of the way he responded to the accusation. Theon is another possibility.

 

[CrunchyB]

Didn't Osha kill him?

I sure got that impression, the wound seemed to be mortal. But it happened off screen. And there's no mention of his body later in ADWD, which doesn't neccesarily mean anything, but still. Wex was in the weirwood above them, but mentioned 6 people and two wolves, but said nothing about Luwin.

And while we're on the subject, how on earth did Wex track Rickon and Osha to Skagos? It's an island! It makes no sense, but it's the only place well known for cannibalism (well, until winter hits the north for real). And then he got back to White Harbor again, which is a long way off.

Martin really outdid himself with vague storytelling.

 

[angelkimne]

I really really get the feeling Winds of Winter will be Storm of Swords part 2, with all the action and twists Dance with Dragons was missing...

- With Sam, we're poised to finally dive into and explore the Citadel, and uncover some of the mysteries set up in the prologue and last chapter of AFFC. Who is the mysterious cloaked man calling himself The Alchemist, and what did he want with the masterkey? How did he reanimate Pate and wipe his memory? This along with his training and the politics of the Citadel should make for some very interesting chapters.

- With Dany and Barristan, it looks as if things are about to get going. After a book of bore, there is no way things are going to go back to status quo. The Yunkish - with the head-throwing - are basically sparking war with Meereen. I'm guessing Dany takes control of the Dothraki and enters the fray with them on her side. Victarion's fleet seems like it will arrive just on time, with the horn that may spell the start of dragons actually begin used in battle. Tryion is newly enlisted in the Second Sons and I guess will be our eyes and ears. The extremely well informed Archmaester who will likely play a big part in things to come (and who I forget the name of) must be nearing Meereen, if he isn't there already.

- Jon Connington and Aegon are just now starting their invasion of the South in earnest, and once his claim to the throne is announced, shit will really start going down. Logic follows that Dorne will declare on their side, meaning the South will once again be embroiled in full scale war. The attempted taking of Storm's End will make for an awesome chapter.

- The North; well, the first Bran chapter will be incredible, now that he has his powers and eyes not just all over the world but also in the past. The Wall is in chaos at the end of Dance, along with the Stannis/Bolton/Manderly situation. Both lie on cliffhangers that make me wish I could read GRRM's mind.

- Jaime and Brienne both are off on some new adventure together, on a quest that will hopefully involve The Hound; everybody's favourite POV candidate.

- To boot, Dance gave us next to nothing on; zombie Catelyn, who's running about with Thoros hanging people, the Blackfish, who's now on the run but likely has plans beyond running, and most importantly Sansa/Littlefinger. All three we will likely get more on once Winds of Winter comes around.

- King's Landing will not only be spiced up by war, but also by Kevan's death (which leaves the position of Regent open), Varys' scheming, Cersei's trial-by-battle with the uncovering of 'Robert Strong', and one of the Sand Snakes - Nymeria - on her way with Princess Myrcella (minus one ear and with a tale to tell). That is, unless she is kept back in Dorne as hostage once war sparks...

- We finally get to find out what Osha and Rickon got up to on Skagos via Davos.

I just wanted to get all that down in writing, there are so SO many different threads of story to look forward to... I'm sure I left plenty out as well.

 

[LegendofJoe]

And while we're on the subject, how on earth did Wex track Rickon and Osha to Skagos? It's an island! It makes no sense, but it's the only place well known for cannibalism (well, until winter hits the north for real). And then he got back to White Harbor again, which is a long way off.

Martin really outdid himself with vague storytelling.

He could have just as easily overheard Osha talking to Rickon or someone else about getting passage to Skagos after trailing them for a while. He doesn't necessarily have to go all the way there to be confident about where their destination was. Still it's definitely vague, and intentionally so I bet.

 

[elrechazado]

Didn't Osha kill him?

Maester luwin isn't killed by osha, where did this idea come from? He does clearly die however, and also was not mentioned by wex.

I really really get the feeling Winds of Winter will be Storm of Swords part 2, with all the action and twists Dance with Dragons was missing...

- With Sam, we're poised to finally dive into and explore the Citadel, and uncover some of the mysteries set up in the prologue and last chapter of AFFC. Who is the mysterious cloaked man calling himself The Alchemist, and what did he want with the masterkey? How did he reanimate Pate and wipe his memory? This along with his training and the politics of the Citadel should make for some very interesting chapters.

-.

The alchemist is jaquen h'gar, and he didn't reanimate pate and wipe his memory, he face changed to become pate for some reason.

 

[sazabirules]

Maester luwin isn't killed by osha, where did this idea come from? He does clearly die however, and also was not mentioned by wex.

"He was given the gift of mercy by Osha. "

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Luwin

 

[ZephyrFate]

I kind of wonder if the greyscale disease is some sort of remnant of the Doom of Valyria, considering it's coincidentally revealed at the same time that Tyrion is traveling by the area.

 

[Puddles]

Bob Strong had better OWN somebody in the trial by combat.

 

[elrechazado]

"He was given the gift of mercy by Osha. "

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Luwin

oh yes, my bad. I forgot that she returns to the group.

Bob Strong had better OWN somebody in the trial by combat.

He's going to get owned by holy warrior and valonqar sandor clegane.

 

[LegendofJoe]

I kind of wonder if the greyscale disease is some sort of remnant of the Doom of Valyria, considering it's coincidentally revealed at the same time that Tyrion is traveling by the area.

They could be related, but greyscale was revealed a long time ago in the books. Remember that Shireen was afflicted with it as a child.

 

[elrechazado]

They could be related, but greyscale was revealed a long time ago in the books. Remember that Shireen was afflicted with it as a child.

Yes, but as an afterthought. The tyrion storyline, connington contracting the disease, and the wildling reaction to it all signal that it's a lot more important than we would have thought in the other books.

 

[angelkimne]

The alchemist is jaquen h'gar, and he didn't reanimate pate and wipe his memory, he face changed to become pate for some reason.

Well, put that down as number god-knows-what on the list of fairly subtle implications I failed to get. I wonder who he's out to kill...

 

[elrechazado]

Well, put that down as number god-knows-what on the list of fairly subtle implications I failed to get. I wonder who he's out to get...

Read the descriptions of jaquen as he leaves arya, and then the description of the alchemist. I agree it's quite subtle, and doesn't really invalidate your point, just changes it slightly...wtf is he doing down there in oldtown?

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

Well, put that down as number god-knows-what on the list of fairly subtle implications I failed to get. I wonder who he's out to kill...

Probably info or an item. Why else get the keys to every lock in the citadel.

 

[LegendofJoe]

He's going to get owned by holy warrior and valonqar sandor clegane.

That would be the top fight in the whole series, no doubt about it. The fallout would be terrible though. If Bob Clegane wins it means no revenge or justice for Sandor, if Sandor wins it means that Cersei will get her head loped off - which leaves Tyrion out in the cold.

 

[sazabirules]

I wonder what happened to Widow's Wail. Joffrey never got the chance to use it.

 

[yacobod]

Rob Strong aka Gregorstein is a pretty stupid idea.

 

[elrechazado]

That would be the top fight in the whole series, no doubt about it. The fallout would be terrible though. If Bob Clegane wins it means no revenge or justice for Sandor, if Sandor wins it means that Cersei will get her head loped off - which leaves Tyrion out in the cold.

It would fulfill the valonqar prophecy nicely

 

[gburgess10]

I really really get the feeling Winds of Winter will be Storm of Swords part 2, with all the action and twists Dance with Dragons was missing...

- With Sam, we're poised to finally dive into and explore the Citadel, and uncover some of the mysteries set up in the prologue and last chapter of AFFC. Who is the mysterious cloaked man calling himself The Alchemist, and what did he want with the masterkey? How did he reanimate Pate and wipe his memory? This along with his training and the politics of the Citadel should make for some very interesting chapters.

- With Dany and Barristan, it looks as if things are about to get going. After a book of bore, there is no way things are going to go back to status quo. The Yunkish - with the head-throwing - are basically sparking war with Meereen. I'm guessing Dany takes control of the Dothraki and enters the fray with them on her side. Victarion's fleet seems like it will arrive just on time, with the horn that may spell the start of dragons actually begin used in battle. Tryion is newly enlisted in the Second Sons and I guess will be our eyes and ears. The extremely well informed Archmaester who will likely play a big part in things to come (and who I forget the name of) must be nearing Meereen, if he isn't there already.

- Jon Connington and Aegon are just now starting their invasion of the South in earnest, and once his claim to the throne is announced, shit will really start going down. Logic follows that Dorne will declare on their side, meaning the South will once again be embroiled in full scale war. The attempted taking of Storm's End will make for an awesome chapter.

- The North; well, the first Bran chapter will be incredible, now that he has his powers and eyes not just all over the world but also in the past. The Wall is in chaos at the end of Dance, along with the Stannis/Bolton/Manderly situation. Both lie on cliffhangers that make me wish I could read GRRM's mind.

- Jaime and Brienne both are off on some new adventure together, on a quest that will hopefully involve The Hound; everybody's favourite POV candidate.

- To boot, Dance gave us next to nothing on; zombie Catelyn, who's running about with Thoros hanging people, the Blackfish, who's now on the run but likely has plans beyond running, and most importantly Sansa/Littlefinger. All three we will likely get more on once Winds of Winter comes around.

- King's Landing will not only be spiced up by war, but also by Kevan's death (which leaves the position of Regent open), Varys' scheming, Cersei's trial-by-battle with the uncovering of 'Robert Strong', and one of the Sand Snakes - Nymeria - on her way with Princess Myrcella (minus one ear and with a tale to tell). That is, unless she is kept back in Dorne as hostage once war sparks...

- We finally get to find out what Osha and Rickon got up to on Skagos via Davos.

I just wanted to get all that down in writing, there are so SO many different threads of story to look forward to... I'm sure I left plenty out as well.

It sounds like you are really behind in terms of story.....

-Have you read the extremely likely theory that Pate is Jaqen H'ghar? How about the true identity of Alleras (the sphinx at the Citadel- She's Sarella Sand!)? Look here.

-Brienne is clearly leading Jamie back to unCatelyn and the Brotherhood without Banners. Like WTF do you think she is doing getting him to come alone? Jesus.....

 

[yacobod]

-Brienne is clearly leading Jamie back to unCatelyn and the Brotherhood without Banners. Like WTF do you think she is doing getting him to come alone? Jesus.....

Although who knows they may continue her pointless quest to find a maid of 13 with auburn hair.

 

[jett]

Although who knows they may continue her pointless quest to find a maid of 13 with auburn hair.

Brienne showing up out of nowhere annoys me. How many more times is GRRM gonna make us think she's dead? I figured she had died screaming "Jaime".

 

[ZephyrFate]

Brienne showing up out of nowhere annoys me. How many more times is GRRM gonna make us think she's dead? I figured she had died screaming "Jaime".

She probably lived because she said that.

 

[CrunchyB]

Read the descriptions of jaquen as he leaves arya, and then the description of the alchemist. I agree it's quite subtle, and doesn't really invalidate your point, just changes it slightly...wtf is he doing down there in oldtown?

Tyrion mentioned a unique book locked away in the Citadel containing secrets about dragons. And we know the Faceless Men of Braavos were opposing the old Valyrian dragonriders.

I kind of wonder if the greyscale disease is some sort of remnant of the Doom of Valyria, considering it's coincidentally revealed at the same time that Tyrion is traveling by the area.

Yes, but as an afterthought. The tyrion storyline, connington contracting the disease, and the wildling reaction to it all signal that it's a lot more important than we would have thought in the other books.

There's also Dany's vision in the house of undying of a grey corpse with shining eyes, standing on the prow of a ship, smiling sadly. Connington? That sounds very foreboding.

Harlon Greyjoy was also killed by greyscale in his youth. Aeron recalls in AFFC. I always suspected there was some kind of hint somewhere in those chapters, we never did find out what was up with those nightmares of "screaming iron hinges" either.